The Trinity Test...Humperdinck
Jul. 13th, 2008 09:05 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
This one is about Ten. And it is very very long...sorry about that.
Did anyone know that the first test of an implosive plutonium bomb was at a test site known as Trinity? Neat, huh? When placed against the concept of the three-fold man, it makes me smile.
"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." -- Oppenheimer when he saw what he had created. "I name you destroyer of worlds," Davros, pointing at Ten.
Nine once said, "Oh, don't worship me, I'd make a terrible god."
Ten told Jack, that Rose had looked into the Time Vortex and "If a Time Lord did that he'd become a god, a vengeful god." He went on to say that it was Rose's humanity that saved her. But now we know that Ten has no humanity in him.
"And the Doctor's soul shall be revealed at the end of days."
"Oh, that's it, the anger, the fire, the rage of a time lord who butchered millions. Why so shy? Show your companion...your true self."
"So dark and cold...fire is coming...the endless flames." -- Caan
Ten, the darkest Doctor we have ever had, is at his nadir point. His soul is dark and cold and full of fire. He has gone from identifying with the cybermen to identifying with the Master...to finally identifying with Davros. "She is mine to do with as I will," Davros says of Rose. And how literally Ten takes that into him...when he makes Rose the keeper of his accidental creation. But it goes back a little further than that...because there was River Song. River who at the moment of her death realized that HER Doctor had manipulated her into that sacrifice. Still...she was his...willing to do his will to the very end.
Rose is less willing, but she's struggling to understand. Donna isn't willing at all. The Doctor has crossed a line...but where did the shuffling toward it start?
At the very beginning, I think, when he turned on Harriet Jones and took her out of office. Sweet, supportive, lovable Harriet Jones...he liked her. But she crossed him and he punished her. Yes, she did something terrible...shot a beaten enemy in the back as he was leaving. So we were all on Ten's side. Just as we were on it a bit earlier...when the Sycorax betrayed him. But if Harriet Jones is one of his children...why didn't he treat her with more understanding? Okay...he's that sort of man...no second chances.
In New Earth...we meet the Face of Boe...and are told that he waits for one like him...a homeless traveler...a wanderer...the Lonely God. And there it is...we've gone from 'Don't worship me' to the Doctor identified as a God. And more than that he says he's the Doctor and if the Sisterhood want to take it to a higher authority...there isn't one. Absolute moral authority stops with him. And we all cheered...yes, that's more like it! Because the sisterhood is so wrong.
Then, he meets Queen Victoria. Anyone from Old Who will remember how much the Doctor loves Victorian England...and the Queen. But, she doesn't love him. She finds him "strayed so far from the good"...and the werewolf sees "something of the wolf in" Rose. The overall feeling though is Rose and Ten are having a grand time of it...so why bother about a stuffy old Queen who might be part werewolf?
In School Reunion...the Doctor says..."If I don't like it, it will stop." And Mr. Finch sees very clearly that the Doctor will want what he's selling...a chance to go back and save everyone...become a god. He also sees what the Doctor wants...an unchanging companion. Which is interesting given that earlier Mr. Finch says that is indicative of Time Lords..."ancient, dusty Senators so frightened of change." And the Doctor admits that it is his curse to watch those he loves wither and die...more than that...he links it to why he leaves people. Interestingly, the Doctor doesn't reject godhood when it is offered. It is Sarah Jane who says things must evolve...everything ends. Always we refer this to his relationship with Rose...it will end...but it is more applicable to his people, his time...even HIM.
Rose is human and will die one day...but he doesn't want to accept that limitation. He's still refusing to face it at Journey's End. He's still trying to save everyone...as he said with that glazed look in School Reunion. "I could save everyone."
Once Rose begins to assert her influence over him mid-Season 2...we see less of the darkness bubbling up to the surface. And we see something VERY important...we see him ask her how long she will stay with him. She says forever. The difference between this forever and Donna's...is that the Doctor ASKS Rose for this one. He needs it...and she knows this.
Yes, he and Rose are inappropriately gleeful in the face of tragedy...and he names them the stuff of legends...and even elevates Rose to her own form of godhood. "If I believe in anything, I believe in her." I still think that she's a positive influence on him...and as he says as he leave her, it is very him to need her. We only see his raging darkness surface when she's taken away...like in The Idiot's Lantern...when he is a very edgy man indeed. "Because that makes things very, very simple." and "No power on this earth can stop me." and "I want my friend back." <<--We get this petulant request in a number of places...Gridlock for example. Ten rages at the world.
In the Runaway Bride he commits near genocide...killing the Racnoss children. We learn in Left Turn that if Donna hadn't stopped him he would have killed the queen and himself. They ARE the bad guys...but hardly on the same emotionless level as the Daleks. Donna tells him he needs someone to stop him...and he latches onto Martha. And here begins a descent I might not have interpreted well at all. It gave me the willies...but mostly because Martha's blind devotion was creepy. Yet, I didn't blame HIM. Even though, he uses Martha as a crutch...someone to hold his hand. I never really thought he gave her "mixed signals"...but certainly he didn't drop her off on the roadside so she'd get the message and move on with her life.
Religious symbolism starts to mount up in S3...with halos and angels and the old rugged cross. The Doctor tells the alleyway people if they are there when he gets back they will regret it. Also, Martha seems unable to stop him. She is too filled with her religious zeal. And we see him getting darker, edgier, nastier...as he condemns the Family of Blood to horrific and eternal fates. Joan is appalled by him and the death he brought with him. In the Sound of Drums...the Doctor has no patience at all for Martha's concern for her family...he is brutally thoughtless of her. And yet, she travels the world speaking to people of her love for him. He makes her into a soldier...not the first in his army of god...but certainly one of the most devoted to him.
Through Martha's committed missionary work, the Doctor is deified again...becoming the Tinkerbell Jeebus as everyone "believes in him." Well, isn't that special? He offers the Master forgiveness. Is it really his to give? Does he speak for planet Earth now? The Master sneers at the "perfect, safe life" the Doctor offers him. And we see the desperation of the Doctor's loneliness revealed. He would do anything...side with anyone to not be alone anymore. He weeps as the last of his kind dies out again. The you are not alone prophecy seems to be a short lived one.
On the Titanic...where he's having fun, fun, fun...Astrid is swept up in the swirl of love around the Doctor. She is quickly HIS. Again...he tells everyone he's their only hope, they must follow him. But many of them die. He's lifted up on high by angels...to take control of everything. And for the first time...he tries to change the outcome of a life...bring someone back from the dead. And when he fails he rages, "I can do anything." Mr. Copper tells him, "If you really could decide who lives and who dies, you'd be a monster."
I think he's crossed that line, now. Creating virtual lives for people...surrounded by their loved ones...loved ones who must lie or force an issue. Did nobody feel sorry for Wilf who will have to lie to Donna for the rest of his life, even when she's lamenting how she's nobody? Did none of us feel sorry for 10.2, who has the Doctor's love of adventure and is now unwillingly trapped in a loveless marriage? Anyone else but me remember that the Valeyard was a master at creating virtual worlds?
Deciding that the Daleks should live...or be offered life...which is truly a bit mad. Holding his hand out to Davros...well...maybe he was just being a good guy there, right? Except he wasn't being a time lord, because remember...Davros is already dead. Or if he isn't he at the very least came back through the time lock. The Doctor saw him fly into the jaws of the nightmare child. So...he needs to die, just like Rose's father needed to die...or time and space will start to unravel in some way.
Dalek Caan knows this but brought Davros back anyway. So that something ELSE could happen...maybe so that the Doctor's soul could be revealed. Maybe all the time lines end here...not because of the Daleks...but because of the thing with all the prophecy around it...the DoctorDonna...10.2...something brand new in creation, a human/time lord hybrid. "You should not exist," the shadow lady says about 10...and 10 says that about 10.2.
Maybe this really was all about what the prophecy said...the Journey's End...because the Doctor has crossed the line into total identification with his Lonely Godhood. Everything stops there...because he can go back and MAKE it stop. And...since he knows it is possible to break the time lock...how tempting will it be for him to just...fix everything? He could save everyone.
I tell you what there is more than a prophecy that he will do this...there is a canon season...the Trial of the Time Lord. Ten is now a point between regenerations, I think...and we have been watching his descent into the madness of the Valeyard since he arrived. We just didn't know it. Because RTD eclipsed it for a time with the bright sun of Rose Tyler. But now...the Darkness is coming, indeed.
Ten needs someone to stop him...and there's nobody left. I see a bad moon risin'.
Or...you know...that could just be because I've adjusted my meds. :grin:
At this point...Journey's End was what it was, yeah? A bit of big budget epic designed to make as many people as possible happy and the time lords are coming back for Moffat and Eleven will make it all better. New companion on the horizon...I guess. :grin:
Did anyone know that the first test of an implosive plutonium bomb was at a test site known as Trinity? Neat, huh? When placed against the concept of the three-fold man, it makes me smile.
"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." -- Oppenheimer when he saw what he had created. "I name you destroyer of worlds," Davros, pointing at Ten.
Nine once said, "Oh, don't worship me, I'd make a terrible god."
Ten told Jack, that Rose had looked into the Time Vortex and "If a Time Lord did that he'd become a god, a vengeful god." He went on to say that it was Rose's humanity that saved her. But now we know that Ten has no humanity in him.
"And the Doctor's soul shall be revealed at the end of days."
"Oh, that's it, the anger, the fire, the rage of a time lord who butchered millions. Why so shy? Show your companion...your true self."
"So dark and cold...fire is coming...the endless flames." -- Caan
Ten, the darkest Doctor we have ever had, is at his nadir point. His soul is dark and cold and full of fire. He has gone from identifying with the cybermen to identifying with the Master...to finally identifying with Davros. "She is mine to do with as I will," Davros says of Rose. And how literally Ten takes that into him...when he makes Rose the keeper of his accidental creation. But it goes back a little further than that...because there was River Song. River who at the moment of her death realized that HER Doctor had manipulated her into that sacrifice. Still...she was his...willing to do his will to the very end.
Rose is less willing, but she's struggling to understand. Donna isn't willing at all. The Doctor has crossed a line...but where did the shuffling toward it start?
At the very beginning, I think, when he turned on Harriet Jones and took her out of office. Sweet, supportive, lovable Harriet Jones...he liked her. But she crossed him and he punished her. Yes, she did something terrible...shot a beaten enemy in the back as he was leaving. So we were all on Ten's side. Just as we were on it a bit earlier...when the Sycorax betrayed him. But if Harriet Jones is one of his children...why didn't he treat her with more understanding? Okay...he's that sort of man...no second chances.
In New Earth...we meet the Face of Boe...and are told that he waits for one like him...a homeless traveler...a wanderer...the Lonely God. And there it is...we've gone from 'Don't worship me' to the Doctor identified as a God. And more than that he says he's the Doctor and if the Sisterhood want to take it to a higher authority...there isn't one. Absolute moral authority stops with him. And we all cheered...yes, that's more like it! Because the sisterhood is so wrong.
Then, he meets Queen Victoria. Anyone from Old Who will remember how much the Doctor loves Victorian England...and the Queen. But, she doesn't love him. She finds him "strayed so far from the good"...and the werewolf sees "something of the wolf in" Rose. The overall feeling though is Rose and Ten are having a grand time of it...so why bother about a stuffy old Queen who might be part werewolf?
In School Reunion...the Doctor says..."If I don't like it, it will stop." And Mr. Finch sees very clearly that the Doctor will want what he's selling...a chance to go back and save everyone...become a god. He also sees what the Doctor wants...an unchanging companion. Which is interesting given that earlier Mr. Finch says that is indicative of Time Lords..."ancient, dusty Senators so frightened of change." And the Doctor admits that it is his curse to watch those he loves wither and die...more than that...he links it to why he leaves people. Interestingly, the Doctor doesn't reject godhood when it is offered. It is Sarah Jane who says things must evolve...everything ends. Always we refer this to his relationship with Rose...it will end...but it is more applicable to his people, his time...even HIM.
Rose is human and will die one day...but he doesn't want to accept that limitation. He's still refusing to face it at Journey's End. He's still trying to save everyone...as he said with that glazed look in School Reunion. "I could save everyone."
Once Rose begins to assert her influence over him mid-Season 2...we see less of the darkness bubbling up to the surface. And we see something VERY important...we see him ask her how long she will stay with him. She says forever. The difference between this forever and Donna's...is that the Doctor ASKS Rose for this one. He needs it...and she knows this.
Yes, he and Rose are inappropriately gleeful in the face of tragedy...and he names them the stuff of legends...and even elevates Rose to her own form of godhood. "If I believe in anything, I believe in her." I still think that she's a positive influence on him...and as he says as he leave her, it is very him to need her. We only see his raging darkness surface when she's taken away...like in The Idiot's Lantern...when he is a very edgy man indeed. "Because that makes things very, very simple." and "No power on this earth can stop me." and "I want my friend back." <<--We get this petulant request in a number of places...Gridlock for example. Ten rages at the world.
In the Runaway Bride he commits near genocide...killing the Racnoss children. We learn in Left Turn that if Donna hadn't stopped him he would have killed the queen and himself. They ARE the bad guys...but hardly on the same emotionless level as the Daleks. Donna tells him he needs someone to stop him...and he latches onto Martha. And here begins a descent I might not have interpreted well at all. It gave me the willies...but mostly because Martha's blind devotion was creepy. Yet, I didn't blame HIM. Even though, he uses Martha as a crutch...someone to hold his hand. I never really thought he gave her "mixed signals"...but certainly he didn't drop her off on the roadside so she'd get the message and move on with her life.
Religious symbolism starts to mount up in S3...with halos and angels and the old rugged cross. The Doctor tells the alleyway people if they are there when he gets back they will regret it. Also, Martha seems unable to stop him. She is too filled with her religious zeal. And we see him getting darker, edgier, nastier...as he condemns the Family of Blood to horrific and eternal fates. Joan is appalled by him and the death he brought with him. In the Sound of Drums...the Doctor has no patience at all for Martha's concern for her family...he is brutally thoughtless of her. And yet, she travels the world speaking to people of her love for him. He makes her into a soldier...not the first in his army of god...but certainly one of the most devoted to him.
Through Martha's committed missionary work, the Doctor is deified again...becoming the Tinkerbell Jeebus as everyone "believes in him." Well, isn't that special? He offers the Master forgiveness. Is it really his to give? Does he speak for planet Earth now? The Master sneers at the "perfect, safe life" the Doctor offers him. And we see the desperation of the Doctor's loneliness revealed. He would do anything...side with anyone to not be alone anymore. He weeps as the last of his kind dies out again. The you are not alone prophecy seems to be a short lived one.
On the Titanic...where he's having fun, fun, fun...Astrid is swept up in the swirl of love around the Doctor. She is quickly HIS. Again...he tells everyone he's their only hope, they must follow him. But many of them die. He's lifted up on high by angels...to take control of everything. And for the first time...he tries to change the outcome of a life...bring someone back from the dead. And when he fails he rages, "I can do anything." Mr. Copper tells him, "If you really could decide who lives and who dies, you'd be a monster."
I think he's crossed that line, now. Creating virtual lives for people...surrounded by their loved ones...loved ones who must lie or force an issue. Did nobody feel sorry for Wilf who will have to lie to Donna for the rest of his life, even when she's lamenting how she's nobody? Did none of us feel sorry for 10.2, who has the Doctor's love of adventure and is now unwillingly trapped in a loveless marriage? Anyone else but me remember that the Valeyard was a master at creating virtual worlds?
Deciding that the Daleks should live...or be offered life...which is truly a bit mad. Holding his hand out to Davros...well...maybe he was just being a good guy there, right? Except he wasn't being a time lord, because remember...Davros is already dead. Or if he isn't he at the very least came back through the time lock. The Doctor saw him fly into the jaws of the nightmare child. So...he needs to die, just like Rose's father needed to die...or time and space will start to unravel in some way.
Dalek Caan knows this but brought Davros back anyway. So that something ELSE could happen...maybe so that the Doctor's soul could be revealed. Maybe all the time lines end here...not because of the Daleks...but because of the thing with all the prophecy around it...the DoctorDonna...10.2...something brand new in creation, a human/time lord hybrid. "You should not exist," the shadow lady says about 10...and 10 says that about 10.2.
Maybe this really was all about what the prophecy said...the Journey's End...because the Doctor has crossed the line into total identification with his Lonely Godhood. Everything stops there...because he can go back and MAKE it stop. And...since he knows it is possible to break the time lock...how tempting will it be for him to just...fix everything? He could save everyone.
I tell you what there is more than a prophecy that he will do this...there is a canon season...the Trial of the Time Lord. Ten is now a point between regenerations, I think...and we have been watching his descent into the madness of the Valeyard since he arrived. We just didn't know it. Because RTD eclipsed it for a time with the bright sun of Rose Tyler. But now...the Darkness is coming, indeed.
Ten needs someone to stop him...and there's nobody left. I see a bad moon risin'.
Or...you know...that could just be because I've adjusted my meds. :grin:
At this point...Journey's End was what it was, yeah? A bit of big budget epic designed to make as many people as possible happy and the time lords are coming back for Moffat and Eleven will make it all better. New companion on the horizon...I guess. :grin:
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 02:32 am (UTC)Now, I'm not that well versed in Old School canon, but... isn't the Valeyard not a true regeneration, but a Doctor split in two? One side 'good' the other 'bad'? And now we have this Dark!Doctor and Doctor 2.0... hmmm.
Just a thought, but still.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 02:39 am (UTC)10.2 is the Doctor we should have...I think...and 10 should have the life he's always wanted...the life with Rose. Rose is very like him...she was once a time god, too.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 04:08 am (UTC)Did none of us feel sorry for 10.2, who has the Doctor's love of adventure and is now unwillingly trapped in a loveless marriage?
That didn't look like the start of a loveless marriage to me. And while he did orchestrate it, it's ultimately a reward far more than a punishment. It isn't a meting out of judgment. He's trying to protect those he loves (in this case, Rose...)
The thing is... the darkness... he's always motivated by good. And not a twisted version of that. He always does what he does to make the world a better place. He may not know the best way to do it. He gets frustrated with his limits and it is a heavy burden to carry, but he's the last Lord of Time. It IS his burden. I'm not too up on my old school, but I don't think he's quite the Valeyard yet. Or even really on his way. He DOES make people better, even if right now he's believing Davros, thinking he turns them into murderers.
As for the unlocking of the Time War... well I'm sure this DOES mean the eventual return of the Time Lords and I'm not happy about that one bit. Because it changes who he is. It's not him... changing himself.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 01:06 pm (UTC)I am postulating that the Doctor is becoming a monster out of loniliness and love. And I know he believes he is giving Rose and his other self a reward...he is giving them the gift he would most like to receive...a normal life. He gave the same gift to Donna.
That didn't look like the start of a loveless marriage to me. And while he did orchestrate it, it's ultimately a reward far more than a punishment. It isn't a meting out of judgment. He's trying to protect those he loves (in this case, Rose...)
If we were meant to think that 10.2 was 10...and wanted what he wants...they could have said so. They said "he needs you...and that is very like me." 10 believes 10.2 is "born in war" and can't be left on his own and he wants Rose to look after him. And Donna has to explain to Rose "what he's trying to give you."
You should go look at 47.47 and all the other little points in the film where you can stop and see 10.2 turned away from Rose. He walks away from her to be with Donna. 10 just keeps looking at her. Admittedly...they were using the body double...but wouldn't it make more sense to have 10.2 be the one sharing moments with Rose. He loves her and is all human, too. There is only one point where they appear to have ANY rapport at all...and that where they are talking animatedly in the background.
If you ask me...10.2 and Rose look calculating at the end of things...not happy together. And before she kisses him...Rose studies him questioningly. I don't think he said "I love you" at all...but he might have said, "He loves you." 10.2 is far calmer and more rational and in better control of himself than 10...he's more like the Doctor. Sure he has feelings...he's just not ruled by them.
And I think...THAT...is our missing key to all this. Ten has always needed someone...Rose, because he loves her...Martha to hold his hand...Donna because she can stop him. And in the end...Ten didn't tell Rose he was all better now and didn't need her anymore. Nor did he demonstrate to US that he was all better now...far...far from it.
Rae
who is looking at things quite differently now...and thinks Rose Tyler has been trying to keep the Doctor safe for some time.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 04:03 pm (UTC)They did. In the I look like him, I think like him, I have his memories bit.
There is only one point where they appear to have ANY rapport at all...and that where they are talking animatedly in the background.
Wow. I think we are watching a different show from each other. There are several points where they do appear to be even flirting. And there is um... that kiss at the end. I'd say that's rapport.
10.2 and Rose look calculating at the end of things...not happy together.
They're confused. They're hurt. They're not going to be happy right away. Calculating? Not by a long shot, in my opinion. It's more like a, 'now what?' because they know they want each other but it's going to a bumpy road getting over these ginormous new hurdles just created for them.
I don't think he said "I love you" at all...but he might have said, "He loves you." 10.2 is far calmer and more rational and in better control of himself than 10...he's more like the Doctor. Sure he has feelings...he's just not ruled by them.
I could not disagree more on those points. If he'd said "he loves you," I expect Rose would have either slapped 10.2 or snogged the proper Doctor, not grabbed 10.2. 10.2 is calmer and more rational and in control of himself? Where, how? The 'spanners' scene with Donna... the destroying of the Daleks? He's not more in control of his feelings, and I believe he definitely told Rose he lovers her.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 04:20 pm (UTC)I look like him, I think like him, I have his memories bit.
And that's IT...exactly. When 10 was convincing Rose that he was still him...still the same man...he said...I'm the same man...it's me, truly. And here...he doesn't say the one thing he REALLY should say...
"I feel the same way about everything." He doesn't say that because he doesn't feel the same way about everything.
Truly, I'm glad you are comfortable with things as they stand and you can justify what was done and you firmly believe 10.2 and Rose will work things out together. And most likely you are getting exactly what you should be getting from the text...but I do have photos to support my views on things...and I wonder if you have any...there are two places where we could say that 10.2 and Rose were flirting...she does smile shyly up at him when 10 puts her so close to him...and she does talk to him with some flirtation...when 10 is outside saying his goodbyes.
But for me...it is like...well...my friend Donna had 10,000 dollars and she was going to Hawaii. And I said, if I had 10,000 dollars I would go to Prague. She said, "What's so great about Prague?" And I told her...all about it...what's so great about it...and she said..."Hmmm, maybe I'll add that to my list." If I sent her to Prague...she would probably love it...but she wouldn't have gone to Hawaii.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 04:46 pm (UTC)He DOES, though. In her ear. That's exactly what he's doing. And it's why Rose has her reaction.
You can extrapolate what you like from the text, of course, and break out the pictures, but I'm just not seeing the things you see. If you can't be convinced of what he said in her ear then we'll ever be at an impasse.
Truly, I'm glad you are comfortable with things as they stand and you can justify what was done and you firmly believe 10.2 and Rose will work things out together. And most likely you are getting exactly what you should be getting from the text.
I don't believe I said I was comfortable with things as they stand. I'm very not. I believe the Doctor did a very stupid thing. I was not pleased with that ending whatsoever. I would much rather things had turned out differently. And I'm still vaguely bitter that they didn't. But I'm not one to fight against the text for very long. We're given what we're given. And fans, ultimately have no control over the text, only their own interpretation thereof.
Do I want things to 'work out'? For 10.2 and Rose to be happy together? Yes. Of course I do. Otherwise the Doctor's heartbreak is all for nothing. I don't see any reason to believe it's impossible or even unlikely that they will find happiness together. Even IF one believes they weren't getting on in the episode. Which I don't.
That he COULD come to love her...I don't deny...but he never says he shares 10's feelings.
I really just don't see any reason to assume that he doesn't. To me, thinking like him and having his memories means he has the same feelings.
I know you love it as it stands and you are happy to build your own adventure for 10.2 and Rose...and maybe that's all RTD wants, too.
Again, no. I don't love it. If I knew RTD and was privy to his ideas before the shows got filmed I would bat him over the head until he saw how wrong his solution was. How unfair.
I may end up building my own adventure for them because that's where my ship is. Off having a new adventure. In the meantime, all I've been able to build for them is world full of angst and emo and the hope of future happiness. Because that's where they are now. No one was skipping off into the sunset with big smiles on their faces. But Rose loves the Doctor and the Doctor loves her and the two of them, in Pete's world, will likely find true happiness. I want them to, but moreover, I believe they will, because I believe the differences between 10.2 and the proper Doctor to be actually quite small (besides the physical ones) if there at all.
And yes. RTD wants it. I believe he thinks he gave the shippers a great gift. Here guys, go play house! With canon!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 04:24 pm (UTC)Rae
I know you love it as it stands and you are happy to build your own adventure for 10.2 and Rose...and maybe that's all RTD wants, too.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 04:59 am (UTC)Which becomes interesting when you look at alternate translations of that phrase. Most translations translate the word not as "death", but as "time". Which has some interesting implications.
He also cited Donne's "better my heart, three-person'd God" from his Holy Sonnets when asked about the name of the test.
I'll stop being a Trinity-geek now.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 01:10 pm (UTC)I do think there is something to the joining of the Doctor and humanity...we have that from the beginning as well. We have that admiration the Doctor has of people because they got out there and danced. He's danced, too. But we get the feeling his capacity for that...as Cassandra put it...is hardly been used.
Rae
Went looking into Hindu mythology
Date: 2008-07-24 05:19 am (UTC)The Tenth and final avatar of Vishnu comes to end the cycle of destruction that is ruled over by the negative aspect of Vishnu that is formed at this time. So...basically...the Valeyard...again. There is a positive and negative version of the Tenth Doctor. The negative one is the one we have now...I believe. And his reign must end for the universe to return to a proper path.
Interestingly...all of this begins when the EIGHTH version of Vishnu leaves...so it is consistent with what we know of the Time War. Very interesting stuff...especially given that when I was writing Disheveled...and I toyed with what I might name the Doctor in Rose's dreams...I went to the Hindu myths looking for a name. They have this story about the bridge of time and a guardian for it...and I was going to use that one. I can't remember if I actually made any reference to it in the final text though.
Anyway...another interesting thing note has to do with Vishnu's wives...he had three but the one he kept has a name that means "Bad Sign."
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 05:20 am (UTC)Um, not I.
Just as we were on it a bit earlier...when the Sycorax betrayed him.
But there, I kinda was on his side. >_>
Religious symbolism starts to mount up in S3...with halos and angels and the old rugged cross.
TINKERBELL JESUS. God, worst season ender ever. I knew they had to reset everything, but to make it so incredibly... Deus ex machina was awful. Though, if you're right, maybe that was the point! You certainly make some good points about Martha. I myself have noticed that she's not much help in stopping the Doctor, in contrast to Rose and Donna. And for that matter, S1 Rose was better at it than S2 Rose.
Did nobody feel sorry for Wilf who will have to lie to Donna for the rest of his life, even when she's lamenting how she's nobody? Did none of us feel sorry for 10.2, who has the Doctor's love of adventure and is now unwillingly trapped in a loveless marriage?
::Raises hand:: The loveless bit is the only part that's debatable. Also, I found River's fake life to be frankly awful. An adventuring archaeologist wants... a house and babies? What? Forever?!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 01:15 pm (UTC)But we didn't hear it...so we are robbed of closure. It would have been so easy to make 10.2 and Rose closer and so make it seem like they were getting a Pony and not Socks. But Rose is crying and running after the man she really loves...and only being marginally comforted by 10.2. Go back and look at the way 10 comforts her after Jack is killed...or the way she comforts him when the TARDIS is burning. IF there is loss and grief...these two know how to comfort one another. Here...he offers her his hand...and she doesn't turn into his shoulder...as she did with Mickey in The Christmas Invasiion...instead...her hips shift away from him.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 03:48 pm (UTC)The way he comforted her was awful awkward, though. Not sure if he's just iffy around her because he knows it's his fault his other self is going to be alone, and he knows Rose knows that as well. 10.2 is 10's excuse to keep himself miserable. Even if Rose grows to love 10.2 unconditionally, it'll take a LOT to get over that fact.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 04:43 pm (UTC)I think one of the honest things about DW is that it shows the negative aspects of a God-figure falling in love. The Doctor is one of the least objective characters ever. He handwaves terrible things when Rose does them and would happily kill anyone who hurt her. That's not necessarily a good thing. His mercy's very arbitrary - he'd pardon Davros, but not The Wire, because the Wire harmed Rose. That makes things very simple, but not in a good way.
There was a very disturbing little exchange at the start of JE when Rose admits she's used a dimensional cannon to get back to him. Not to save the world - to get back to him. In other words, she's gone ahead and done exactly what he wouldn't, for moral reasons, allow himself to do after "Doomsday." This is a man who won't even let Jack, a trained 51stC Time Agent, use a teleporter. But does he call Rose out? No, he grins and flirts with her. He's flattered.
I don't think Rose's union with 10.2 would necessarily be loveless, but it wouldn't be straightforward. The ghost of the original, unhappy Ten, the adjustment to a human life without the TARDIS - that's a lot of baggage for any relationship to carry. And the way that scene was acted didn't suggest that we were meant to regard it as a happy ending. Everyone was uneasy with it.
Personally, I'd have liked 10.2 to clock 10.1 for that speech about him being dark and needing Rose to fix him. Beam in yer eye, Doctor? It's classic dualism. He's pushing away his shadow side and it doesn't work.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 05:12 pm (UTC)But I agree about the teleporter, though I think the real reason he keeps turning that off is so things aren't too easy on Torchwood. And the general idea of Rose getting special consideration is very true, the exception being that not even she gets to choose her own fate if Doctor knows best. :-\
Aye, "uneasy" is one way to describe the look Rose gives 10.2 at the end there.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 10:37 pm (UTC)No...actually...she says she was building the dimension cannon BEFORE the cataclysm. And this plays into something that WE the audience and the Doctor should consider...Rose always comes back...she doesn't EVER sit still like he told her to do. And buying her off with almost HIM...isn't going to stop her now. "They keep trying to split us up...but they never, ever will."
Okay...well...maybe HE can just say no. But he doesn't say NO...he says..."Look out after this guy." To me, looking out after 10.2...whipping him into shape...is very godlike thing for Rose to do. But it is not a very loving thing to do.
Rae
thinking uneasy is a far better term than loveless...or even concerned...10.2 and Rose have an uneasy alliance...I don't know that it is heading toward love and babies. I would say it is heading toward a "better dimension cannon."
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 10:52 pm (UTC)Oh, crap, I totally missed that. XD
In other news, I just watched Tooth and Claw and School Reuinion with my friends and... yeah. "Your people were peaceful to the point of indolence, but you... you're something new."
"If I don't like it, it stops. You get one warning."
And etc, furthering my believing the points you make.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 10:33 pm (UTC)He says...I could grow old with you...if that's what you want.
This...added to his thoughtful assessment of what is going on in the TARDIS...and his saying to Donna "I AM the Doctor" and finally...that really...as Doctor Who fans...we are not supposed to accept what 10 tells us right at the beginning AT all...10 says, "I didn't want to change...why should I? Look at me!"
Uhm...yeah...because you shouldn't be admiring yourself at all...no Doctor ever has. The body of a Time Lord is a transient and changing thing...he could be old, young, no head, two heads...female...or human...but the important thing is what's on the inside.
I think 10 and Rose should be in the normal life...because they do want it...and because they really are both quite dangerous...yes! They've gone beyond ordinary to "the stuff of legends."
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-20 10:48 pm (UTC)Me neither.
I found River's fake life to be frankly awful. An adventuring archaeologist wants... a house and babies? What? Forever?!
Oh god, that made me sick. SICK.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 03:10 pm (UTC)Ah! So I'm not the one who believes the Doctor is turning into the Valeyard!
Remember what River said about her Doctor, starring down at armies and snapping his fingers at the Tardis! Wannabe god, in deed!
And another virtual life! River's end!
After a life of adventures being stuck in a computer! What the hell! I think that even death would be sweeter!
The Valyard is coming and I think that's why Rose had to go. The Doctor doesn't want his beloved Rose to ever meet his darkest side. In her alternate universe, where he can't reach her, she'll be safe.
Maybe, by telling him his name, River confirmed Ten/Eleven(?) would become the Valeyard very soon. We all thought that telling his name meant wedding because of silly rumours, but what if his name was a weapon against himself, against the Valyeard?
However I don't agree about Ten II having a loveless marriage. Alien or not, he's the Doctor after all. Rose will accept him, eventually, like she accepted Ten after loosing her dear Nine. And then, I don't know if you've seen the DWA scans, but it looks like Ten I gave Ten II a bit of the tardis coral so he could grow his own Time machine.
http://sunnytyler001.livejournal.com/86206.html#cutid1
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-15 01:45 am (UTC)Oo, that does put his last discussion with River in a different light. "You know my name... There's only one reason I would ever tell anyone my name; there's only one time I could..." I thought he was pleading for River's life...is it possible he was pleading for his death? Wanting her to let him sacrifice himself because now he knows how close to becoming the Valeyard he is? (This might be a pointless observation, but it hit me pretty hard.)
The Doctor also says, "time can be rewritten". I hope that, if RTD IS bringing us to the Valeyard, he has a trick (or three) up his sleeve to redeem Ten and destroy the Valeyard. *whimpers*
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-15 02:17 am (UTC)You should take a look at my next entry...it's about the Valeyard...and this very thing.
And I think telling River his name WAS a signal of something bad...coming. I think Rose saw something bad coming...when she was the Bad Wolf...and she set out to stop it...or...for that matter...the very idea of the Bad Wolf...could be that energy that was inside her...that the Doctor took into himself...maybe it changed him...created itself...and so the Bad Wolf warning was not a warning about the Daleks destroying the universe...but about all that was to happen to the Doctor and Donna.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-15 12:56 pm (UTC)Yes...and remember how we were asked to view the TARDIS this season..."It's still trying to help"...and even there with River...10 says something about you not snapping your fingers at the TARDIS...because it's a TARDIS.
Yeah...show a little respect, buddy. But now...the TARDIS is one of his companions...which he is reading as beings he directs on how to behave and live.
Rae
The Valeyard
Date: 2008-07-14 03:40 pm (UTC)I seem to be asking that a lot lately :)
Susan
Another clue or just foreshadowing to JE?
Date: 2008-07-14 06:31 pm (UTC)"When you run with the Doctor, it feels like it will never end, but however hard you try you can't run forever. Everybody knows that everybody dies. And nobody knows it like The Doctor, but I do think, that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark, if he ever accepts it."
Think anything of it? I don't know WHAT it would mean..if it did mean anything at all. :3
Re: Another clue or just foreshadowing to JE?
Date: 2008-07-15 12:46 am (UTC)When you actually stop and look at that statement, it's describing godhood, the physical universe responding to a profound change in his emotions. Didn't the sky turn black at midday during Jesus' crucifixion, according to the Gospels?
Whoa! Good catch that...
Date: 2008-07-15 01:11 am (UTC)I am purposing that Rose and 10 love one another...but that is a separate issue to the Bad Wolf...the Bad Wolf saw all of time and space...and it wasn't the Doctor SAFE...protected from the false god. Rose doesn't think 10 should be left on his own.
Maybe Rose is right!
RAe
sorry for the delay, I was distracted by a doctordonna animated moodtheme...
Date: 2008-07-17 01:50 pm (UTC)Ten being all-controlling has been a long time coming. I can understand it, even if I don't agree with it. Bad Wolf (to this point) was a destiny beyond his control, as was ArchAngel and the DoctorDonna. All these heart wrenching events in his life are dictated by other people, and it's reached a point that he's had enough. In his mind, if he controls the lives of those around him, it will hurt less. It appears easier to give Rose away, and not have Donna die in his arms or on a monitor, where he pleads he'd rather die in her place than witness it. Caan said someone would die, and he took Donna's dignity away just to snub other people's plans for him. He's trying things on the flipside, the side he usually fights against. Actions rarely change, only how you perceive them, and the people the Doctor fights enjoy what they do.
I think Caan said of the Doctor 'the Dark Lord is coming.' The obligatory repeat-the-last-three-seasons (ooh Harry Potter) aside, Brown is becoming what most people see him as; what River saw him as. He's always wanted to be human, and his companions helped him bridge the gap. He reached out to Davros to salvage just one life from his destruction, like Donna asked him to in Pompeii. But Davros calls him the Destroyer of Worlds, and Brown is losing his inner battle to define himself. Now he's being defined by other people; the arrogance, the destruction, the TARDIS command. He's forcibly - permanently - removing his ties with those that see him as a man with human needs and wants: Rose and Donna. Martha and Jack definitely look up to him as a Lord. He nags Mickey initially as he leaves the TARDIS, possibly wanting to keep a permanent distance there, too. Jackie accepted him as a 'son-in-law' but didn't resist the distance. Sarah Jane also has a young son to be 'distracted' by, in Brown's eyes.
part 2...
but I've come back to talk for England
Date: 2008-07-17 01:52 pm (UTC)In all the discussions I'm seeing, no-one's asking deeply what the Doctor wants (not needs). Is it fair to ask Brown to watch Rose wither and die? Would Rose really want to put him through that? She wants him safe, but does that include protecting him from losing her by means beyond his control - enemies, natural ageing? If he extends her life, she'll stop being the bright human spark he loves. If he keeps her to travel with him, he knows through Davros that enemies will manipulate her in order to hurt both of them. He doesn't want her to see his full self, his soul. That doesn't seem like a good basis for a relationship. As others have said here, he's a bad man when Rose is taken from him. Giving her away freely might make things easier for him. He's sent Rose away from him three times now, and she is willing to collapse two realities to be with him. The focus on the small picture at the expense of the big one is a little disturbing to me. But it's also a bit like Martha's devotion, that no matter how far he pushes her away, she keeps coming back.
Bad Wolf Bay. I don't think Blue/Rose is a loveless marriage. I think it's an arranged one. In religious studies at school, arranged marriages were explained to me as "I learned to love my husband after we were married" and the marriages were arranged in part because the Elders honestly believed their personalities were a good match. In bad cases, it reads as "old men dictate your life, get used to it." I don't think we needed to hear what Blue whispered in Rose's ear. I got a lip reader friend not familiar with Who to come and look at it, and before I even asked she said "I love you." Once I explained, she unenthusiastically added it could be "like humans do" but stressed there was no context, no beginning to that sentence. But the beach scene really pushed the boundaries on what Who can be, and I think hearing 'I love you,' the Doctor's name or seeing the Doctor's genitals would break it. All these things can and have been hinted at. What I think should have been said by Brown (if this was the end) was, "Please, Rose. For me." But no, the Dark Lord is coming.
See? I will give this all proper thought
Date: 2008-07-17 02:22 pm (UTC)That says a lot about the Doctor's mindset...and plays into his suicide in Left Turn. He doesn't kill the Family of Blood, he makes them suffer for all eternity. Dead is a welcome release. This is what Rassilon knew, too.
Ten gives 10.2 the gift HE wants. A short, sweet life with Rose and death. But it is a gift he has stated he can "never have." If 10.2 really does what he is told...if he is passive...and he certainly appears to be once 10 arrives...then he will do what Rose tells him to do. Again...not a good marriage partner. But also, Rose won't stop then, either.
I am of the admittedly small minority of people who think that there is no way love can bloom under these circumstances. Because even if it IS an arranged marriage...and he is like 10 in every way...Rose knows 10 is still alone. 10 needed to say he was okay alone...but he didn't. He implied it with the idea that Rose had healed him...but still...
The Dark Lord is coming. I firmly believe Rose and 10 need each other to stop. I think she would tear down the universe to get to him...and if 10.2 can't stop her...who can?
Also, we must actually look at Rose's motivation for wanting to be with 10...it isn't that she loves him. She DOES love him. But her motivation in constantly returning to him has always been..."He does it alone, mum." So, 10.2 would have to convince her that his other self is just fine.
And I think the reason 10.2 goes along with things is that he's the Doctor. The Doctor would have listened to Cassandra's mad prophecies. He would have seen the truth in them. The Doctor used to be thoughtful and far less volcanic...he used to be agreeable. He used to see things clearly...go along with things and then...cheerfully put a stop to whatever was going wrong.
Besides 10.2 can't ask 10 for what he needs...10's body. That would have to be freely given. In other words...you can't force the Dark Lord back into his bottle. He has to want to change or the change simply won't hold. I think Rose and Dalek Caan both saw the same thing when they saw all of Time and Space. Rose tried to love the dark out of the Doctor...tried to stay with him forever...and so off-set the darkness. But that failed. So...Caan has tried to bring the dark out ahead of time.
You see, Caan said...all of this would have happened anyway...he just pushed it ahead...manipulated things when he was the Bad Wolf. This is why Dalek Caan said that Rose and 10 must both be caged and there...because the Doctor must have a choice...at all times. And it could well be that 10.2 is allowing that choice to unfold in its own time.
It could also be that 10.2 needs Donna as much as Donna needs him. He could need her spark of independence in his head. She gives him so much of his old self back...really...the need to explore...the end to romantic notions...the fun...and a little of the uncertainty he once had. Donna would save one family...even if you couldn't save the whole city.
Rae