The Afterlife...Humperdinck

[rabid1st]

More about DW S4...episode 13...one day I will stop posting these...but today is not that day...This one is about Pete's World!

Also there are four pictures from the finale...not so dial up friendly and, of course, spoilers...apparently you can't use two cuts in one post...sorry if I spoiled anyone accidentally.

"The valient child who will die in battle...so very, very soon."

Doomsday comes and Rose says, "My name is Rose Tyler and this is the story of how I died."

The Doctor tells her..."You're dead. Officially."

"My wife died." "Her husband died. Good match."

Queen Victoria gives a lovely little speech about how we must wait for word from the other side once our loved one's leave us.

Jackie Tyler says it would be wonderful if the dead could return but the Doctor says "I think it would be horrific."

And everyone who is anyone in Pete's World...is dead. We saw Jackie die. We saw Pete die. We saw Rickey die...not quite Mickey...and Mickey does come back. We know that his old Gran died before we meet her.

And it dawns on me...that Pete's World is the Doctor Who afterlife.

It is where the dead go. And we don't want them to come back...because life in our universe is so very hard...and they have found peace. Or most of them have...Rose hasn't, as yet. This ending we have is like Orpheus...in a way...Rose tries to come back from the land of the dead...and is firmly returned to it.

But there is someone else who we saw die. Ten dies. He dies...at the end of The Stolen Earth. He says it is too late to save him. He starts to regenerate...that is Time Lord death. You don't come back from that. Sure you go on...in the memory of the next Doctor. You can loop around on occasion. And you become part of the next man. But you don't go on AS the Doctor after you die.

Another really good reason for 10, not 11*, to be in the afterlife is that 10 is the one who died. He hijacked the body. The same way the Valeyard was going to hijack Six's body maybe. Ten broke the cardinal rule of Doctor Who. The Doctor regenerates and changes into a new man and we say goodbye to the old Doctor and accept the new one. The new Doctor has all the memories of the old one...he thinks the same way...but he's refreshed and rejuvenated.

Ah...but...the question is presented...by the few people still listening to me...:wink:

Is RTD clever enough to have planned all this? Or is he simply telling a nifty story with big flashy special effects? Did he cobble JE together at the last minute...to have a real good send off...with all his peeps there...and the earth being towed around...but then decide that he could help with the long break and pen a few more episodes?

It seems he was clever enough to plan to have Billie back all along...and to have her lie to the public for two years. Was this ending the reason? Did he think...Rose just won't stay in the other universe alone...so...I should bring her back so I can send her away more permanently? Or one day I will make two Doctors and one of them will be human and go off with Rose, but I won't ever make Rose want a human Doctor? Or I need to make a clone of the Doctor for my story to work...so...let's bring Rose back for an entire season so I can get rid of the spare Doctor?

I am trying to wrap my mind around the thought process.

Let's bring back Donna...to have a season about...duplication and cloning and such...so Rose can be retired with a human clone of the Doctor and everyone is happy. Only let's make sure nobody really looks happy. Let's introduce Donna by having the Doctor afraid to let her onboard...because he nearly ruined Martha's life...but then Donna can be special...save everyone...and then go back to being as she was. Perfect. Hmmm? It is still not working for me. As you can see.

But 10 being dead now, 10 being the one who should go, that works for me. It wasn't a complete death...it was rather like Rose's, Jackie's and Pete's...there's still a spare. And there's an afterlife waiting for Ten over in Pete's World. That is something we've never seen with the Doctor. He never gets to the final resting place. Usually, he folds into himself. But 10 has been crying out for the normal life...for so long...wouldn't it be heaven to him...to rest...to be with Rose? Isn't that why he tries to give it to 11? Because he doesn't believe he deserves a place in Heaven...not when he's so dark and lost?

Rassilon knew what the First Doctor said...what Ten said later, "Immortality is a curse, not a blessing." To go on and on...losing all that you love...is the curse of the Time Lords...it drives them all mad. Or, in the case of Rassilon, into permanent isolation. It is time for the Doctor to "die" and be reborn...from Donna Noble. A little bit human...a man with a planet and a family and some hope for his future. Not someone who is predestined to always end up alone. He should give 11 the body and take the path into eternity...living a life, day-to-day, the one adventure he has never had.

So...about those pictures...they are making my point that RTD has all this planned out.

This is what tired of life looks like...



This is what love looks like...



And this is what comfort looks like...




And this is none of those things...




*Yes, I'm going to call 10.2 that now...11...because that's who he is. He's the proper Doctor...with a little bit of Donna thrown in. And maybe he would kill Davros...or the wasp...to really save people. Maybe he wouldn't let so many innocent people die. Maybe we need a better Doctor for our universe...one who understands Harriet Jones...and Martha Jones, too.

Comments

[maniacalshen.livejournal.com]

Rather than leave an intelligent comment, I'd just like to say that the first cap makes me smile hugely. Every time I scroll up to it.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I assume you mean the "What love looks like" cap. I added another cap and now it looks like you are smiling at sad, empty, "tired of life" Doctor. But I believe you are looking at the love cap...and yes...it is so important.

Because, THAT cap is from after they escape...when Rose and 11 should be bonding...11 is looking on here and smiling at the picture of 10 and Rose in love, too. I love 11...he's so calm and caring and connected to people. And I would say Rose is better off with him...except that Rose wants 10 to be saved. And so do I.

Rae

[maniacalshen.livejournal.com]

Lol, yes, I meant the "What love looks like" picture. And 11 looking on 10 and Rose happens more than once; you have a good point there.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yes. 11 even looks on at the beach. He stands there and lets 10 have his say...and he doesn't do anything...except sort of rock back in surprise when 10 says he's the one who is wrong.

He does offer Rose some solace...telling her he could stay with her if that's what she wants. But he never really volunteers true comfort...he never says he feels the love...why not? I mean it is all DARN nice of him to tell her what the Doctor would have told her. I mean, they are both being stranded there...so they could either work together to fight it...or maybe make the best of the situation. It's sort of "Stuck with you...that's okay."

Only neither of them seem okat with it in the end. They are just sort of looking at one another. If there had been any real bonding...I would have felt better about this. And I have to wonder why I'm not allowed to feel good about the happy ending...or the best we can hope for ending?

Rae

[arabian.livejournal.com]

BUt, of course, they're not. I don't think the two situations can be compared. The first two caps are the Rose/Doctor after being reunited. The last cap is the Rose/Doctor in an uncertain, unknowable situation. They aren't expressing love or comfort in that shot. It's a what the hell do we do now? moment.

I'm not saying I don't see your point, but using that cap to counterpoint the above two caps I don't think is a fair reflection of what the moment was about.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Actually...the cap where they are smiling together...is from AFTER 10.2 arrives. If you look at the 10.2 and 10 in the TARDIS moments...you will see that Rose turns toward 10 whenever he is there...and in this scene...she has slid in under his arm and they are delighting over Gwen looking like Gweneth. There is a shot of 11 looking over at them and smiling at their cooing. There is also a point where everyone hugs. If you pause your film there...you will see that Rose and 10 turn toward each other...we then see 10.2 hug Sarah Jane to his left (not Rose to his right) and Martha...hug Donna. This leaves 10 and Rose hugging but unseen. Then Rose goes to Martha...and 11 goes on his way. We see 10 get between Rose and Martha for another hug...just before we see Donna get between Jack and Sarah Jane.

Surely...if they mean to indicate that 11 is 10...then he and Rose should do a bit of flirting or hugging or something? I know she kisses him...but I also know she breaks out of the kiss and rushes toward her Doctor. And if 11 is the DOCTOR...kissing him doesn't prove very much...the pulling away and running does though.

And my cap comparison is about comfort...and love. And it is very fair...if 10.2 is the Doctor...why doesn't he react like the Doctor would...about being given a life with Rose. Why is it made uncertain? I can understand a little bit of uncertainty...I can't understand the distance between them...the complete lack of nudging and cooing and such. If nothing else...she should have leaned into him when he took her hand...but she shifts her hips AWAY from him. This isn't HER Doctor...it's A Doctor...Eleven...the one she says at the beginning of the episode she doesn't really want.

Rae

[arabian.livejournal.com]

I know exactly when both moments in your caps take place. Also, we DO have some Rose/10.5 interaction. She's gives him a flirty look at one point, and when others are leaving, you can see Rose and 10.5 laughing in the background of a shot.

My point was not the exact moment they took place, it was the circumstances. The Doctor and Rose had been reunited, they thought they were going to be together, all would be good and well.

And THEN reality hit, the Doctor realized the two Doctors wasn't going to work, and oh Rose could have a half-human Doctor who could live his life with her and die with her.

The two caps you showed are before that reality hit, the last cap is after it's all said and done and there's the thought of 'okay, what do we do now?' You could easily grab the cap where Rose is giving 10.5 the flirty look in the TARDIS, or the two laughing with one another. Or Rose's hand on his heart, or him telling her he loved her. Those would be more indicative of their feelings.

I'm not saying I disagree with your overall point, I just think that choosing those caps as you did to show that 10 and Rose love one another and 10.5 and Rose don't is not a fair reflection of the scenes.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...I know the caps you mean. But I don't think they mean what you are saying. I mean...she touches his heart because they've told her he has one heart. She is laughing with him while her Doctor is outside saying his goodbyes. And that one look she throws at him...could be flirty but it could also be just "Oh, boy!" Because it is after the Doctor places her hand by 10.2. And I'm thinking that you believe the Doctor makes the decision at the last minute, then?

So...when he takes them to Bad Wolf Bay he's thinking HE will stay? Or was it some other point where he makes this decision? I would think he would make it when 10.2 blows up the Daleks...since he bases it on that...but okay...maybe he made it at the last minute. And I like that you also assume he told her he loves her...from the confidential. I am talking about touch here...for the love. Body language...10.2 and Rose don't stand together...the one time he shows some sort of good body language with her is when he touches her arm as he leans in to whisper something in her ear.

She has to kiss him. I think that is vital. Maybe so the audience believes she will accept him...but then if that was why they had her kiss him...why have her pull away...and then pull away when he takes her hand, too?

I have looked at the caps you are suggesting...they don't really read as loving. The body language is just off in them. They stand too far away from one another.

Rae

[arabian.livejournal.com]

No, I believe full-heartedly that he told her he loved her for three reasons ...

1. In "Doomsday," Rose said "I love you" and he said "well, if it's my last chance to say it: Rose Tyler ..." Every logical, rational, reasonable indication is that he was going to say "I love you." If it was his last chance to say it.

2. The Doctor on the beach said "Does it need saying?" Yet another euphemism for "I love you" that he loves to throw around.

3. Watching Tennant's jaw, and his face what we can see, it sure as heck looks like "I love you" to me.

It has nothing to do with "Confidential." That just helped confirm my own belief in what he said.

As for when Ten made the decision, I think it was something that was there in the back of his mind while he was beginning the goodbyes, after the danger was over. And he was realizing the situation. I don't think he fully accepted what he was about to do until he walked back into the TARDIS and only Donna, Rose, Jackie, 10.5 were there.

Finally, my point about the caps themselves aren't literal. I know that we weren't given those moments to truly cap the happy (which I wish we had been), but my point has always been that the situations are so different. In the first Rose/10 cap, they are just giddy and happy, no realization of what is to come. In the second Rose/10 cap, there is no second Doctor and no other situation that would have Rose leaving the Doctor without her dying.

The cap with Rose/10.5 is the both of them thrown into a situation that wasn't their choosing, that was thrust upon them as if they had no say in the matter and they were stuck there. It was a 'what the heck are we going to do now?'

That's my point, the situations are just so completely different that comparing the caps as you did isn't reflective of that reality, in my opinion. I can't think of any other way to phrase it to explain my point.

I DO agree that we don't see LOVE between Rose and 10.5 in a way that we SHOULD have, but I think that was a timing, two characters/one actor issue, as opposed to a deliberate point of execution. We may never know, or we might someday and you're totally right. Which, as I said below, would be cool. If it's not the case though, I'm going to accept that we DID get a happy-ever-after of sorts for both Rose/Doctor (10.5) and Donna based on the clues and how I read them. It makes me a happier camper that way.

I know you say you know...but you seem...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...to not know...:Grin:

The first cap of them is from when everyone is in the TARDIS and about to tow Earth home. The positioning is that Ten has placed everyone's hands on controls...he places Rose so that she is reaching under his other self. She places her stance wide. This indicates that she is either bracing for the TARDIS to move...or she's uncomfortable. And she casts a very cute, flirty smile up at 10.2. This seems perfectly natural to me...she obviously would find that position very awkward considering what he looks like.

But then...10...begins talking to Torchwood...and Rose leans over to see into the monitor with him. She adjusts her body language...away from one man and toward another. Blue suit does the same, he turns toward Sarah Jane. When it is time to hug someone...he picks Sarah Jane...Martha picks Donna...Ten and Rose turn toward one another...we don't see them hug...but we do see that nobody else is hugging them.

Now...was that the actress and actor for the monitor shot? I think not...because it is a two-shot...you have to stage it. And they could have easily had David in the blue suit and Rose smiling at him...he was standing right next to Billie...but they put David in the brown suit. And she turns toward him...goes to him...runs to him in the end on the beach.

As for the I love you...yeah...probably that was what was said because it was in answer to the question of what was it the Doctor had been going to say...and Rose does know what that is...because it doesn't need saying. But if this is the end of the story...then we are saying that we can't know that this Doctor says them on his own. He never says them on his own. And he could...I mean...he's human...right? And not coming back, ever? So why not know that he and Rose will be okay there in Pete's World?

As for the body language...it is comfort in loss. Rose comforts him in the loss of Donna and the TARDIS. Ten comforts her in the loss of Jack. She has lost 10 when 10.2 goes to comfort her....but he doesn't offer that comfort as we have seen the Doctor offer it...he takes her hand...she shifts her hips away from him. All of those things are staged...it doesn't matter who else is there...Jack is looking on in the TARDIS shot above...as Jackie was looking on in the last shot. The distance between the actors says that they are not the Doctor and Rose...because we have JUST seen how the Doctor and Rose interact.

Rae

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

It's a pity Jake didn't cameo in the finale, because he and Rose suddenly have a lot in common: To live with the doppleganger of the man you love. Only Rose has the advantage that the split into 'parallel' lives is only a few hours.

The beauty and curse of RTD's writing is that the same images and words can be interpreted in many different and valid ways.

For instance, this looks a lot like the love cap in your original post, and a happy smile by an onlooking Blue suit. I call both the smiles on the men joyful, happy at seeing the pieces fall into place in the save the day plan:



For the hugging, I find it very weird that Brown Ten isn't seen hugging Rose. It was a blink and miss it when they begin to kind of face each other. But this cap is interesting:



<<< No Brown suit leaving Rose's arms. We never see Rose hug either of the suits when she is aware of two of them. Which is fine in a sense because we don't see everyone hug everyone else. Brown goes on to muscle in on Martha/Rose, but we don't see Martha hug anyone after that; it's Rose that's freed to hug her Mum. I wonder if they declined to show the Brown/Rose hug because of how different it would have been from their reunion hug at the start of the episode, that it would have jarred either with that hug or jarred with Brown's distancing at the end. But what we see is, Brown gives no special attention or touch to anyone on the TARDIS on the way home.

In fact, Blue is only seen hugging SJS, and the rest of his physical interaction is with Rose. On the beach Brown never takes his hands out of his pockets. That's not exactly comforting. And I can accept the level of intimacy, or lack thereof, between Blue and Rose on the beach. I've seen a woman married to a twin who was less affectionate to her husband when his brother was around. I accept the kiss that was chosen, because I'd be a bit tamer with my Mom watching! I agree with Rose kissing Blue, too. Otherwise it might seem like he was pushing himself on her the way Brown was forcing them to be in the parallel universe. Blue only knows Rose in this world, so he'd be unwise to push any issues for fear of being alone. Maybe we can see if Rose really meant "Stuck with you... that's not so bad." Maybe Brown is teaching her about responsibility, that she asked him to cast off his regeneration so that's what she gets to live with.

I suppose we should compare the intimacy to when Ten regenerated in TCI: At the end of the episode he held out her hand and she said it freaked her out. They mumbled nervously about whether they wanted to be together because he'd changed. But after a while, she held his hand, and she asked where they were going next. And yet, imagine how much it would hurt the audience if we saw that everyone was happy except Brown at the end because of his arrangements. It reminds me of the He-Man film: We don't say good-bye, we say good-journey. One journey ends, another begins, and sometimes paths cross once more. Even if it's just to kick Brown up the bum, because it's clear to the audience that things aren't right when he plays God.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

In your first cap...is that grin at Rose? I think it is either the one he gave Sarah Jane...or the one he shot at Rose and Ten together. You will note we see nothing like that smile from 10 about 11 and Rose together. The most we get from 10 is a slight, indulgent smile when Rose touches 11's chest. But mostly 10 has his hands in his pockets and his jaw is set.

Again if we compare the intimacy level in TCI...when he holds out her hand she says she is freaked out by it...but she quickly is drawn closer to him...they are again...shoulder to shoulder and leaning into one another. This is the simple truth of it...10 and Rose touch all over. And probably his hands are in his pockets to control the touching impulse.

As for everyone happy but Brown at the end...my feeling is that if he had done the right thing...he would be alone but content. He is unhappy because he didn't do the right thing.

Take the end of S3...even though he's been caught up in something wrong...and is alone...he's not all steeped in morose sadness. If it is true that Rose is better off with 11 and the Doctor is "better" now...and can go on without her memories...then he should be okay with it. If it is true that he's saved Donna's life...and she's going to live a full and happy normal life...then why is everyone who knows Donna feeling bad about it?

To me...this is all wrong...and that's why the Doctor is sad instead of resigned. He doesn't want to leave Rose or Donna this way.

Rae

I think it's wrong, too

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

My first cap is the happy face Blue makes when Brown and SJS are looking at the monitor, hence splicing the shots together. :) It compares well to the happy face he gives when it's Brown and Rose looking at the monitor. Brown and Blue smile at everyone on the TARDIS.

It doesn't surprise me Brown never smiles greatly at Blue and Rose together. It must hurt terribly to give up the woman you love to someone who is so similar to you. But again, Brown and Blue have very similar body language on the beach; closed off. If Blue has Brown's feelings and thoughts, then maybe Brown isn't suited to the 'one adventure he can never have.'

I don't have the health to go watch TCI and see how long it took for Rose to snuggle up to the new boy, and then compare it to the beach scene here. I do feel that given a few more seconds, they would have touched more. But imagine if TCI had gone differently, that Eccleston and Tennant were on screen together. Who would have Rose run after? I think she would have gone for the shape and colour clothes she was used to, and stared warily at this skinny boy in a suit. Yet, there was only Ten, and now in a sealed off parallel there's only Blue, and she will learn the new him all over again. The writers tell us that whoever the companion favours is still the Doctor, which is why Rose accepted Ten in TCI so quickly; time constraints. Maybe her running after Brown is telling us he's the Doctor the audience moves on with.

The main difference between this season finale and S3 is who's making the decisions. The Master chose to leave the Doctor, as did Martha. That's the life he's used to, people leaving him. But here, he's the one making people stay away from him. His decision and his morose to live with it. It should be a temporary thing, a knee jerk reaction to being told he turns people into weapons. I'm sure by Christmas without a companion he's heading for the proverbial airlock and will realise companions save him. Judging by the spoilers, there is some comment about how the Doctor treats his companions and he'll get a reality check that he doesn't want to be that sort of man.

I do agree that this ending feels wrong, because I don't like what Brown is turning into. And I like reading your Humperdinck. :)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I see you are using the confidential kiss for your icon. I see that a lot. People are pretending THAT kiss is the one in canon. They are pretending that 10 really did give 10.2 a bit of the TARDIS coral when he didn't. And in fact, couldn't have...because 10.2 isn't really thinking 10 will strand them there. Also, people are thinking all sorts of things are true about 10.2 that are not true...like he must love Rose because he said that in response to her question. Her question was..."What were you going to say?" And 10.2 has all of 10's memories...so, of course, he knows what he was going to say. Just as he might well find that stuck with Rose isn't so very bad...he knows that he could love her. But he never says that he loves her. Not really.

It would have been so easy to have had 10.2 and Rose bond. She could have hugged him first, instead of Sarah Jane. She could have nudged his shoulder or brought him into things when Gwen appeared. When he does that cute little wink thing at Sarah Jane...that could have been directed at Rose. When she runs after the TARDIS...and he comes to take her hand...he could have stood the way Rose and 10 stand...with his shoulder behind hers. She could have leaned into him...as she leans into Mickey even in The Christmas Invasion. This is all screaming...not right at us.

Rae

[arabian.livejournal.com]

I use the confidential kiss because it's a more passionate kiss and makes a prettier icon. I know it's not canon, but I can see why it's easy to consider it so since there were a few seconds where the angle was on Donna and the TARDIS as opposed to the Doctor and Rose kissing.

I know what you're getting at, and I while I do see your point, I just do disagree because while I think it COULD have been executed better, I don't see 10.5 as NOT Ten. I would love to think that there is MORE to the Doctor/Rose story, because it would be fascinating, but right now I'm taking the great gift we got -- and I do consider it such -- and not hoping for more until I know we may get it.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I just think that there might be a reason why we all have to make so much of this story up in our heads. And I also think it is interesting how much story gap people are willing to bridge with personal belief systems.

Donna is going to be special in real life now...not because we have much indication of that...but because we can't really bear to think of her going back to the screeching harpy who didn't like herself very much. And Rose and 10.2 are going to be happy together...not because they look happy together but because...not because we saw much evidence of them as a couple...but because we can't really bear to think of them trapped like that...against their will.

And hardly anyone is willing to say what Harriet Jones said...that, I'm sorry, but the Doctor is wrong. That he's made the wrong choices for people and that maybe he shouldn't be going on as he always has...running from everything. Maybe the Shadow Proclamation lady was right...and the Doctor shouldn't even exist. All things end...even him...his song comes to an end.

And yes...I suppose...that plays into my belief system. Because I think the Doctor has to change or the show is over. Stories have endings...they don't just go on and on forever. Fans always think that will happen but writers know that way ends with a yawn and click of the remote. That's how Old Who ended. New Who could be better than that...it could have a 20 year plan...or it could just grind on until it falters under the weight of the angst...or for that matter...the pointless happy.

What I'm saying is the shape of this story is off...it isn't saying what we are all saying...now...that could be because RTD has washed his hands of it all...could do no better...and wants to leave it up to us to imagine our own gift. As you say...the very idea that Rose could have some form of the Doctor is more than most people expected. The very idea that Donna doesn't die...is more than most of HER fans expected. And we can easily tell ourselves what River and Elton Pope told us...that the Doctor is too vast and magnificent for anyone to touch for long. But the Doctor...is just a guy. An alien guy...an icon...the last of his kind...but he's not a lonely god...that way lies villiany.

Rae

[nostariel]

People are pretending THAT kiss is the one in canon. They are pretending that 10 really did give 10.2 a bit of the TARDIS coral when he didn't.

This has been going on for quite a long time now, the taking of what's said and seen in the Confidentials and interviews as canon. But in another 30 years, will people remember? And if the showrunners are routinely Lying Liars Who Lie (Rose is coming back to save the universe! Oh wait, she was actually risking the destruction of two universes and the deaths of her entire family just to get back to the Doctor. The fact that the multiverse was already in trouble was just a lucky coincidence. Character assassination, thy name is Rusty.) should we even pay any attention to what happens offscreen of the show itself?

I seem to be bombarding you here

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Sorry about that. But I popped over to read some of your comments on the finale...and I think you are remarkably insightful about a lot of things. But ultimately we disagree on Donna, too. I can see what you are saying about her mum...but again...in that scene...you miss what Wilf says, "But she was better with you. She was." And Sylvia ends up calling Donna useless right before Donna decides to die. I don't see a big change in Sylvia at the end. I see the Doctor telling her what to do...and her telling him to leave. And sadly, I see everyone in Donna's life lying to her for the rest of her life...denying her the true scope of her specialness. Yes, it is possible she could become something more this time around...that some of her greatness might be remembered...the way Agatha Christie remembered through her amnesia. It is possible Rose and Eleven will make a happy life together. But the entire end is all..."Now what?" And we have to believe that things will get better...because that's all we have.

When you craft a story...you can take it somewhere. It would have been very easy when crafting this story to have showed the shot you have in your icon as the kiss. To have had Rose lean into Eleven for comfort. To have had Sylvia be the one who is upstairs with her sleeping daughter...brushing her hair from her face and telling the Doctor that she is special. But Sylvia is the same cold person...and Rose is running after 10 and 10 is still sad and broken and alone...the things Rose cared about helping him with. If Ten had said...you helped make me better...and then HAD been better...it would have worked. But 10 isn't better at the end...he's the same as always only even MORE exhausted and alone. Now, if this is the end for Rose and Donna and 10.2 (if he's NOT Eleven) then all we have to look forward to is more of the same...a new companion who the Doctor will love and lose. This is the pre-destination of River Song. The future can be rewritten but not if you refuse to change anything.

Rae

Sheesh...typos too

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And Sylvia ends up calling Donna useless right before Donna decides to die.

I meant in Left Turn. You point out that in Left Turn Sylvia believes in Donna for a bit. But then...in the end...when things don't improve...Sylvia turns on Donna again and slips into her own bitter depression. What we are hoping is that now...knowing that Donna was special...Sylvia will never again slip up. Even though Donna is back to being the sort of useless person she was in The Runaway Bride. I think it is far more likely that Sylvia will be the one to kill Donna with a careless swipe of her barbed tongue. "You used to be someone...you traveled the stars...but now look at you...useless." And Donna remembers and burns. And when the Doctor comes back to help her...she's gone.

Rae

Re: I seem to be bombarding you here

[arabian.livejournal.com]

"But she was better with you. She was."

I think I really looked at that line and the surrounding context differently than everyone else, LOL! When Sylvia fought the initial statement, it didn't come across that she was saying that Donna wasn't better, but she was trying to defend Donna -- not knowing the full scope of how Donna WAS better with the Doctor.

I see what you're saying completely in the last paragraph, but because it's not dependent upon just the best story, but rather the availability of the actors and the length and tenure of the exec producers/head writers, I have learned to grasp onto the most positive viable outcome that makes sense to me if I can.

If canon comes along and gives us a better, on-screen awesome Donna than we saw at the end of JE, if it's proven that Rose is not happy with 10.5, and that she and Ten will eventually be with one another, I'll be thrilled from the point of view of seeing it on screen, official canon. But until such time, I'm just the type of person who's going to grab that potential happy-ever-after and say it is so. That's just me.

Just because we disagree on this, don't think that I don't love reading your theories, because I do. I think they're awesome and there are quite a few from pre-finale that I would have liked to see come true, but, ah, if wishes were horses ...

Well...you've got to have hope I guess

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I think that is the beauty in this ending...and maybe the point of it. We are all rising to the need...bringing out our fic and our hope. We refuse to let this happen in our world. This is why I compared the end to the Batman movie. Because the idea that we have to have a lie to support our fragile hope...irks me...yet, I do see that Gotham gets the hero it deserves. If we don't expect our heroes to be better than the Doctor is at the end of JE...then we are never going to get better heroes.

If we expect sorrow and get...something less than sorrow...we call it a gift.

The Doctor isn't a hero here...or at least he's not the hero the Earth deserves. He is taking care of us...like children...assuming that we can't really make our own choices. Is it a coincidence that the Doctor's Army are called his children? Is it a coincidence that only Rose and the two Doctor's are considered worthy of cells? The others must kneel. I don't know...it could all just be pomp and flash...or it could be that RTD really does think the Doctor should be a god.

Certainly, I would be the last person to offer you any hope at this point...because...as you say...my theories don't play out in reality as often as I might like. Though I was right that we would have another Doctor from the HAND and from Donna...and Rose was coming back...after Doomsday. Even that Rose coming back was planned all along. And...well...if I'm right about the Valeyard...that will be very cool indeed.

Rae
wrong about the Master and about Jenny...and the Rani...though I did like that Moffat said he'd like to bring the Rani back. Go Steven!

[wiggiemomsi.livejournal.com]

OK, I'm trying to wrap my mind around what you're suggesting here.

"He should give 11 the body and take the path into eternity...living a life, day-to-day, the one adventure he has never had."

So 10.2 should be considered the 11th Doctor, somehow be given the Time Lord powers/abilities that 10 now has, so 10 can become human and be with Rose? If so, I'd give anything to see this happen! It's so obvious that 10 is weary and not caring like he used to. I could so see him slipping into an evil dark side now, and becoming the Valeyard. He only really came alive when Rose was with him, and she obviously wanted the "real" Doctor and not the "created" one. But, sadly, what are the odds of this happening?

Good critique; I always enjoy your reasoning.

*Hugs*

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

ICON FREAKIN' LOVE.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

That is it...exactly. 10.2 is 11. He got shunted off into the handy bioidentical recepticle...aka...the hand. So that Ten could stay with Rose...but then...11...came into life anyway. He used Donna to be reborn. And he's a time lord in a human body...so 10 could be in that body and survive and have his memories and his beloved Rose.

But he'd have to give the job of protecting our universe to 10.2...bad if 10.2 is bad...but the right thing to do if 10.2 is really 11. And I think 10.2 is really 11. He isn't acting full of rage...he's very calm and reasonable. Yes, he does do things that 10 wouldn't do...or want done...but 4 did things that 3 didn't like.

The point is...Harriet Jones makes the point that the Doctor can be wrong. And we don't listen. Davros makes the point that the Doctor is really the destroyer of worlds...and we don't listen. Eleven makes the very good point that the Daleks will wipe out the universe on their own...no need for planetary alignment...and we don't listen. No...we listen to the man who is lost and alone and who didn't really care if the world had been devastated as long as his Rose was coming back.

And now...he's closed the door on her helping him...that's not a good sign. That seems to me like a man who is showing poor judgement. But...maybe that is just me...and not RTD.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

OH...and really...all they need to do is switch bodies. We sort of see this happen in New Earth...with the psychograft...Cassandra popping from body to body. She suppresses the current person. But all I'm suggesting is that Time Lords, who we know can dump their consciousness into a watch...and into another body...might be able to do a body swap.

A body swap between 10 and 11 gives everyone what they want for Christmas. Rose gets her Doctor. Ten gets his oridinary life of rest and Rose. Eleven gets to see the universe with a bit of Donna inside him...so Donna gets to do what SHE wanted to do, too, travel the stars with him forever.

Oh...and WE...get a new and better Doctor...one who doesn't have to pretend he's happy. One who can really have a good time again.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

OH...and Moffat gets what he wants...a chance to make a brand new Doctor legendary. He wouldn't have to clean up RTD's mess...the slate would be clean for him...he would have the history without the emotional baggage. What could be better than that?

Rae

[islwyn13.livejournal.com]

And, superficially, we get to keep David as the Doctor, and see him play a more upbeat, optimistic character, rather than the angsty, broken one! He would get to broaden his acting for the Doctor, which I think would make him happy. (Pure speculation - I don't know the man.)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...it would probably make any actor happy if he got to reinvent an icon character twice over. He could invest in the subtle differences that make 11 more sane and centered than 10. Something I think he was doing on the beach and in the other scenes. I think that we should all have taken note of the fact that 11 doesn't rage and bluster and threaten and shout. He is a very thoughtful, if gruff, Doctor.

And after spending a year with Catherine Tate as Donna...I think David could incorporate her into the character very well. Like when he goes "Watch it, Earth Girl." And yes...we could have an entire full season with David playing 11. I mean...the idea has always been out there about controlling the regeneration process. The Doctor has just never had a good grip on the concept until now.

Personally...I think 10 going to Rose and 11 getting the body back...is the right thing on all levels.

Rae

Trufax

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

I haven't posted on these recently because I really can't think of anything intelligent to add except that you are awesome and I totally see where you are coming from and agree with everything you say.

wow

[susanb03.livejournal.com]

Again, I am in awe of your thought process....

I can't wait to see if RTD is as clever as you think he is.....

but while we wait... some more Wild Geese :)????

[astitchintime-9.livejournal.com]

Dalek Caan says "one will still die" as everyone boards the TARDIS, and -- assuming that he doesn't include himself (in the third person) in the statement (do we know what happened to him?) -- who really dies? [Donna? That point is still being debated.] Certainly, your theory ties to that statement -- in that 10.2 (not quite 11 yet, I think) later gets left in Pete's World/Afterlife/Ten's Heaven.

But really, I think that you've articulated the awful/wonderfulness of Pete's World.

And yes, the wrong Doctor is there now: it was the obsolete model that should have been retired. 10.2's first exit from the TARDIS, post-regeneration, was accompanied (emphasized?) by the same blinding TARDIS backglow that heralded Ten's revival in TCI. That visual cue is a very important reminder in a season finale packed with flashbacks!

However, what I don't get is how a TimeLord's hand would regenerate into a Human's body? Pushing the point, wouldn't a human body in this situation look like, human-Donna, rather than Timelord-Ten? Furthermore, it took a spark to activate the timelord presence in Donna's mind; is it possible that another crisis could jump start a second heart 10.2? Bottom line: who says 10.2 is human? Face facts, they were totally wrong about Jenny's ability to regenerate!

I'm not finished with Donna yet!

P.S. - Love your screencaps!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...what got me was this whole instantaneous biological metacrisis thing. They say there has never been one with a human before...because there "can't be." But that sort of assumes there has been one before...just not with a human. So...maybe 10.2 isn't that unique...in exisiting. He's only unique in that he exists with a human as part of the equation. The set up is sort of interesting...because 10.2 isn't really human. He's part human/part Time Lord.

He is the Doctor in his mind...but able to see what Donna is thinking...something 10 was never able to do. 10 always sort of missed the point...is still missing it. And if we look back at the Doctor...we see that he has always sort of missed the point about people. This is what makes him a horrible god. He doesn't really understand the people worshipping him. So Martha's crush gets overlooked...and Rose's love of her mum gets overestimated...and Donna is given a life she will abhor.

It is possible that another crisis could start a heart in 10.2. Or perhaps Donna could regenerate if she died. But the easiest thing is that 11 is now in a human body capable of holding a Time Lord mind. That means 10 could go...be with Rose and not lose any of himself. He wouldn't have to be John Smith. He would only have to admit that he hijacked 11's body and life and that was the wrong thing to do. I'm pretty sure they could switch.

I'm also wondering about Donna's ring. It is possible that even if Donna has died...if her ring survives...she is still inside it...because the ring winked...and it was on the hand that reached out to THE HAND. I just wonder how a time lord goes into an object...like a watch or a ring or a hand.

Rae
who was prompted by someone to write a story that featured the HAND becoming animated but not a full body...sort of like Thing in the Addam's Family. We could have Ten/Rose/HAND porn. OTT!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

The assumption is that Donna was slated to die and the Doctor got around the prophecy. But there is the metaphoric death of Pete's World. And now 10.2 is "dead" like Rose and Jackie. But Caan could well be talking about the Doctor...because the first time he says anything about dying in context...it is during the comment..."The Doctor and his precious children of time...and one of them will die." So...we are led to believe that one of them will die. Also, it is his most "faithful companion"...one would assume that is Rose or Donna. But also..it is loneliness and sorrow. If 10 goes on as he is going...he goes on in loneliness and sorrow. But if 10 dies...goes to Pete's World...than his song ends. The true song that the Ood were talking about..."Same old life...in the TARDIS."

When the Ood said his song was coming to an end...it was in response to the Doctor indicating the TARDIS and saying he had a song. When Rose asks him in Doomsday what he's going to do now...he says, "Oh, I've got a TARDIS...same old life." And Bad Wolf Rose said..."Everything dies. All things come to dust." That includes the Doctor...and the Face of Boe. People, to me, seem to limit all this prophecy too much. Maybe RTD limits it, too. But I think all of it fits with the idea of the Doctor changing into something new...and he HAS made that change...he's just one step away from making it a "new song." One little body swap away from having the Doctor having the life he longs to lead and us having the Doctor we deserve.

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

If there isn't a resolution to all of this,its safe to say RTD is a terrible writer or started dropping acid half way through the last eppie. Pot maybe? Perhaps he sniffs household chemicals like the folks from my generation did for a while. (the 90s were weird) He could also enjoy tragic emo-love stories. Look at the fun the Torchwood gang has been through. Noone's happy there.

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

Then again, he needs an audience for the specials. Rusty likes to pull tricks so anything's possible. I will say I'll lose respect for him as a writer if this is it.

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

Another good show is Dexter. I hear CSI is ripping off their "killer-disgused-as-a-cop" idea. Good show Dexter. I haven't seen it in a while because I'm always doing news.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I don't know...the Torchwood gang has happy times. Gwen and Rhys are married. Ianto and Jack seem to be doing okay. I don't think there was any future for Owen and Tosh in any case. That was a situation where neither person could reach out to the other. Tosh idolized Owen and Owen hated himself and that is hardly a recipe for true love.

Hence...Martha and the Doctor not working out. But that doesn't mean NOBODY can work out. I was actually quite proud of Torchwood for not killing Rhys...and having Gwen go ahead and marry him. I think his level of normal really adds to the show. And there is still heat between Gwen and Jack...so they lost nothing with the Rhys thing for me. I do sort of want Ianto to be one of those hidden soldiers...but only because I really want Ianto to be more interesting than he is.

For me...I feel that if the Doctor is dragged down...then there is no light and no puppies and no pony for anyone at Christmas. Because it will be like Doctor Who has become the Batman franchise...no longer a joke but not exactly a barrel of Saturday Fun-time either.

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

Oh i agree.It maybe the very last special that the Doctors switch places. I keep thinking of Riversong telling him he wasn't the Doctor, but would be someday. Moffat likes to fuck with RTD by spilling the beans. I don't think he likes emo-Doctor. SO you're right on the money when you talk about the Doctors switching. 10.2 was exactly the Doctor Riversong talked about. Think about it.

[webeh.livejournal.com]

I know that I'm kind of off-topic, but have you ever seen the Graduate? That last screencap you've posted, I thought that it looked remarkably similar to the ending bus scene in the film. Except, I think Doctor Who was a lot less gloomy than the Graduate was. Whereas the impression in the Graduate was 'Oh s**t, now what?.', Doctor Who was just 'Now what do we do?'

I wonder if RTD was thinking about that film when he wrote the scene.

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

Hey you're right! Clever you are!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

The only problem I notice immediately...is that the two people in the Graduate are laughing and running together. They are even laughing when they sit down together. But there is no laughing or shared intimacy between 10.2 and Rose. There is a kiss...and a very awkward one...and he answers her question about what 10 was going to say...we assume with the appropriate words. This inspires Rose to kiss him...maybe...but the kiss doesn't seem to go very well.

And again...we see the one problem that I have had all along. Rose grabs him by the collar and tugs him into the kiss. So we see no real indication that 10.2 is motivated to be romantic with her. Even the "I could spend it with you...if you want." Is sort of a..."Looks, like I've got nothing better to do." Rather a more awkward version of "stuck with you...that's okay."

Rae