The Afterlife...Humperdinck
Jul. 20th, 2008 11:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rabid1stMore about DW S4...episode 13...one day I will stop posting these...but today is not that day...This one is about Pete's World!
Also there are four pictures from the finale...not so dial up friendly and, of course, spoilers...apparently you can't use two cuts in one post...sorry if I spoiled anyone accidentally.
"The valient child who will die in battle...so very, very soon."
Doomsday comes and Rose says, "My name is Rose Tyler and this is the story of how I died."
The Doctor tells her..."You're dead. Officially."
"My wife died." "Her husband died. Good match."
Queen Victoria gives a lovely little speech about how we must wait for word from the other side once our loved one's leave us.
Jackie Tyler says it would be wonderful if the dead could return but the Doctor says "I think it would be horrific."
And everyone who is anyone in Pete's World...is dead. We saw Jackie die. We saw Pete die. We saw Rickey die...not quite Mickey...and Mickey does come back. We know that his old Gran died before we meet her.
And it dawns on me...that Pete's World is the Doctor Who afterlife.
It is where the dead go. And we don't want them to come back...because life in our universe is so very hard...and they have found peace. Or most of them have...Rose hasn't, as yet. This ending we have is like Orpheus...in a way...Rose tries to come back from the land of the dead...and is firmly returned to it.
But there is someone else who we saw die. Ten dies. He dies...at the end of The Stolen Earth. He says it is too late to save him. He starts to regenerate...that is Time Lord death. You don't come back from that. Sure you go on...in the memory of the next Doctor. You can loop around on occasion. And you become part of the next man. But you don't go on AS the Doctor after you die.
Another really good reason for 10, not 11*, to be in the afterlife is that 10 is the one who died. He hijacked the body. The same way the Valeyard was going to hijack Six's body maybe. Ten broke the cardinal rule of Doctor Who. The Doctor regenerates and changes into a new man and we say goodbye to the old Doctor and accept the new one. The new Doctor has all the memories of the old one...he thinks the same way...but he's refreshed and rejuvenated.
Ah...but...the question is presented...by the few people still listening to me...:wink:
Is RTD clever enough to have planned all this? Or is he simply telling a nifty story with big flashy special effects? Did he cobble JE together at the last minute...to have a real good send off...with all his peeps there...and the earth being towed around...but then decide that he could help with the long break and pen a few more episodes?
It seems he was clever enough to plan to have Billie back all along...and to have her lie to the public for two years. Was this ending the reason? Did he think...Rose just won't stay in the other universe alone...so...I should bring her back so I can send her away more permanently? Or one day I will make two Doctors and one of them will be human and go off with Rose, but I won't ever make Rose want a human Doctor? Or I need to make a clone of the Doctor for my story to work...so...let's bring Rose back for an entire season so I can get rid of the spare Doctor?
I am trying to wrap my mind around the thought process.
Let's bring back Donna...to have a season about...duplication and cloning and such...so Rose can be retired with a human clone of the Doctor and everyone is happy. Only let's make sure nobody really looks happy. Let's introduce Donna by having the Doctor afraid to let her onboard...because he nearly ruined Martha's life...but then Donna can be special...save everyone...and then go back to being as she was. Perfect. Hmmm? It is still not working for me. As you can see.
But 10 being dead now, 10 being the one who should go, that works for me. It wasn't a complete death...it was rather like Rose's, Jackie's and Pete's...there's still a spare. And there's an afterlife waiting for Ten over in Pete's World. That is something we've never seen with the Doctor. He never gets to the final resting place. Usually, he folds into himself. But 10 has been crying out for the normal life...for so long...wouldn't it be heaven to him...to rest...to be with Rose? Isn't that why he tries to give it to 11? Because he doesn't believe he deserves a place in Heaven...not when he's so dark and lost?
Rassilon knew what the First Doctor said...what Ten said later, "Immortality is a curse, not a blessing." To go on and on...losing all that you love...is the curse of the Time Lords...it drives them all mad. Or, in the case of Rassilon, into permanent isolation. It is time for the Doctor to "die" and be reborn...from Donna Noble. A little bit human...a man with a planet and a family and some hope for his future. Not someone who is predestined to always end up alone. He should give 11 the body and take the path into eternity...living a life, day-to-day, the one adventure he has never had.
So...about those pictures...they are making my point that RTD has all this planned out.
This is what tired of life looks like...
This is what love looks like...
And this is what comfort looks like...
And this is none of those things...
*Yes, I'm going to call 10.2 that now...11...because that's who he is. He's the proper Doctor...with a little bit of Donna thrown in. And maybe he would kill Davros...or the wasp...to really save people. Maybe he wouldn't let so many innocent people die. Maybe we need a better Doctor for our universe...one who understands Harriet Jones...and Martha Jones, too.
Also there are four pictures from the finale...not so dial up friendly and, of course, spoilers...apparently you can't use two cuts in one post...sorry if I spoiled anyone accidentally.
"The valient child who will die in battle...so very, very soon."
Doomsday comes and Rose says, "My name is Rose Tyler and this is the story of how I died."
The Doctor tells her..."You're dead. Officially."
"My wife died." "Her husband died. Good match."
Queen Victoria gives a lovely little speech about how we must wait for word from the other side once our loved one's leave us.
Jackie Tyler says it would be wonderful if the dead could return but the Doctor says "I think it would be horrific."
And everyone who is anyone in Pete's World...is dead. We saw Jackie die. We saw Pete die. We saw Rickey die...not quite Mickey...and Mickey does come back. We know that his old Gran died before we meet her.
And it dawns on me...that Pete's World is the Doctor Who afterlife.
It is where the dead go. And we don't want them to come back...because life in our universe is so very hard...and they have found peace. Or most of them have...Rose hasn't, as yet. This ending we have is like Orpheus...in a way...Rose tries to come back from the land of the dead...and is firmly returned to it.
But there is someone else who we saw die. Ten dies. He dies...at the end of The Stolen Earth. He says it is too late to save him. He starts to regenerate...that is Time Lord death. You don't come back from that. Sure you go on...in the memory of the next Doctor. You can loop around on occasion. And you become part of the next man. But you don't go on AS the Doctor after you die.
Another really good reason for 10, not 11*, to be in the afterlife is that 10 is the one who died. He hijacked the body. The same way the Valeyard was going to hijack Six's body maybe. Ten broke the cardinal rule of Doctor Who. The Doctor regenerates and changes into a new man and we say goodbye to the old Doctor and accept the new one. The new Doctor has all the memories of the old one...he thinks the same way...but he's refreshed and rejuvenated.
Ah...but...the question is presented...by the few people still listening to me...:wink:
Is RTD clever enough to have planned all this? Or is he simply telling a nifty story with big flashy special effects? Did he cobble JE together at the last minute...to have a real good send off...with all his peeps there...and the earth being towed around...but then decide that he could help with the long break and pen a few more episodes?
It seems he was clever enough to plan to have Billie back all along...and to have her lie to the public for two years. Was this ending the reason? Did he think...Rose just won't stay in the other universe alone...so...I should bring her back so I can send her away more permanently? Or one day I will make two Doctors and one of them will be human and go off with Rose, but I won't ever make Rose want a human Doctor? Or I need to make a clone of the Doctor for my story to work...so...let's bring Rose back for an entire season so I can get rid of the spare Doctor?
I am trying to wrap my mind around the thought process.
Let's bring back Donna...to have a season about...duplication and cloning and such...so Rose can be retired with a human clone of the Doctor and everyone is happy. Only let's make sure nobody really looks happy. Let's introduce Donna by having the Doctor afraid to let her onboard...because he nearly ruined Martha's life...but then Donna can be special...save everyone...and then go back to being as she was. Perfect. Hmmm? It is still not working for me. As you can see.
But 10 being dead now, 10 being the one who should go, that works for me. It wasn't a complete death...it was rather like Rose's, Jackie's and Pete's...there's still a spare. And there's an afterlife waiting for Ten over in Pete's World. That is something we've never seen with the Doctor. He never gets to the final resting place. Usually, he folds into himself. But 10 has been crying out for the normal life...for so long...wouldn't it be heaven to him...to rest...to be with Rose? Isn't that why he tries to give it to 11? Because he doesn't believe he deserves a place in Heaven...not when he's so dark and lost?
Rassilon knew what the First Doctor said...what Ten said later, "Immortality is a curse, not a blessing." To go on and on...losing all that you love...is the curse of the Time Lords...it drives them all mad. Or, in the case of Rassilon, into permanent isolation. It is time for the Doctor to "die" and be reborn...from Donna Noble. A little bit human...a man with a planet and a family and some hope for his future. Not someone who is predestined to always end up alone. He should give 11 the body and take the path into eternity...living a life, day-to-day, the one adventure he has never had.
So...about those pictures...they are making my point that RTD has all this planned out.
This is what tired of life looks like...
This is what love looks like...
And this is what comfort looks like...
And this is none of those things...
*Yes, I'm going to call 10.2 that now...11...because that's who he is. He's the proper Doctor...with a little bit of Donna thrown in. And maybe he would kill Davros...or the wasp...to really save people. Maybe he wouldn't let so many innocent people die. Maybe we need a better Doctor for our universe...one who understands Harriet Jones...and Martha Jones, too.
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-21 11:21 pm (UTC)1. In "Doomsday," Rose said "I love you" and he said "well, if it's my last chance to say it: Rose Tyler ..." Every logical, rational, reasonable indication is that he was going to say "I love you." If it was his last chance to say it.
2. The Doctor on the beach said "Does it need saying?" Yet another euphemism for "I love you" that he loves to throw around.
3. Watching Tennant's jaw, and his face what we can see, it sure as heck looks like "I love you" to me.
It has nothing to do with "Confidential." That just helped confirm my own belief in what he said.
As for when Ten made the decision, I think it was something that was there in the back of his mind while he was beginning the goodbyes, after the danger was over. And he was realizing the situation. I don't think he fully accepted what he was about to do until he walked back into the TARDIS and only Donna, Rose, Jackie, 10.5 were there.
Finally, my point about the caps themselves aren't literal. I know that we weren't given those moments to truly cap the happy (which I wish we had been), but my point has always been that the situations are so different. In the first Rose/10 cap, they are just giddy and happy, no realization of what is to come. In the second Rose/10 cap, there is no second Doctor and no other situation that would have Rose leaving the Doctor without her dying.
The cap with Rose/10.5 is the both of them thrown into a situation that wasn't their choosing, that was thrust upon them as if they had no say in the matter and they were stuck there. It was a 'what the heck are we going to do now?'
That's my point, the situations are just so completely different that comparing the caps as you did isn't reflective of that reality, in my opinion. I can't think of any other way to phrase it to explain my point.
I DO agree that we don't see LOVE between Rose and 10.5 in a way that we SHOULD have, but I think that was a timing, two characters/one actor issue, as opposed to a deliberate point of execution. We may never know, or we might someday and you're totally right. Which, as I said below, would be cool. If it's not the case though, I'm going to accept that we DID get a happy-ever-after of sorts for both Rose/Doctor (10.5) and Donna based on the clues and how I read them. It makes me a happier camper that way.
I know you say you know...but you seem...
Date: 2008-07-21 11:45 pm (UTC)The first cap of them is from when everyone is in the TARDIS and about to tow Earth home. The positioning is that Ten has placed everyone's hands on controls...he places Rose so that she is reaching under his other self. She places her stance wide. This indicates that she is either bracing for the TARDIS to move...or she's uncomfortable. And she casts a very cute, flirty smile up at 10.2. This seems perfectly natural to me...she obviously would find that position very awkward considering what he looks like.
But then...10...begins talking to Torchwood...and Rose leans over to see into the monitor with him. She adjusts her body language...away from one man and toward another. Blue suit does the same, he turns toward Sarah Jane. When it is time to hug someone...he picks Sarah Jane...Martha picks Donna...Ten and Rose turn toward one another...we don't see them hug...but we do see that nobody else is hugging them.
Now...was that the actress and actor for the monitor shot? I think not...because it is a two-shot...you have to stage it. And they could have easily had David in the blue suit and Rose smiling at him...he was standing right next to Billie...but they put David in the brown suit. And she turns toward him...goes to him...runs to him in the end on the beach.
As for the I love you...yeah...probably that was what was said because it was in answer to the question of what was it the Doctor had been going to say...and Rose does know what that is...because it doesn't need saying. But if this is the end of the story...then we are saying that we can't know that this Doctor says them on his own. He never says them on his own. And he could...I mean...he's human...right? And not coming back, ever? So why not know that he and Rose will be okay there in Pete's World?
As for the body language...it is comfort in loss. Rose comforts him in the loss of Donna and the TARDIS. Ten comforts her in the loss of Jack. She has lost 10 when 10.2 goes to comfort her....but he doesn't offer that comfort as we have seen the Doctor offer it...he takes her hand...she shifts her hips away from him. All of those things are staged...it doesn't matter who else is there...Jack is looking on in the TARDIS shot above...as Jackie was looking on in the last shot. The distance between the actors says that they are not the Doctor and Rose...because we have JUST seen how the Doctor and Rose interact.
Rae