SIGNS & PORTENTS - Dr. Who S2 Spoilers

[rabid1st]

All the way to the finale, Doomsday!



I couldn't sleep last night. I was heartbroken, more so than seems possible over a fictional event. But more than that I was angry. I felt cheated. We didn't even get a true kiss. We didn't get closure. Or a declaration of the love everyone knew was there and eternal. What the hell kind of ending was that? I ranted...through the night. I tossed and turned and thumped my pillow into odd shapes. Then my muse started drinking (metaphorically...I only allow her metaphoric alcohol)...and spinning tales.

This couldn't be the end she told me...not because it sucked...but because...it couldn't be the end for these two characters. Which when I thought about it for a minute...turned out to be true. Let's look at the facts.

1) He's the Doctor. Mickey and Pete and Jake and Rose all tell us in this episode that he can do anything. As if we didn't know that already. ;->

2) Mickey also points out that just because the Doctor says "Nobody can cross a dimensional barrier" doesn't mean that "Nobody can." Lots of things the Doctor says are impossible are possible once he thinks them through.

3) Rose is Rose. She's not a shop girl. She's been a god. She's not about to go back to being ordinary. She' working at Torchwood. Where we already know they have loads of alien technology...enough to open up the door between worlds...not once but a thousand times.

4) Jackie and Pete act as the foils for Rose and the Doctor in this. The Doctor knows about love now. He knows what a man will do for his beloved and he uses that to manipulate the reunion that he knows Rose craves. There are tons of mirroring moments, like when both the Doctor and Pete put the chains around the necks of their respective Tyler women. How when the Doctor was screaming Rose's name as she slipped toward Hell...Pete was the one to save her. How...when Jackie tells Pete that there was never anyone else...Mickey rolls his eyes and smirks (because, as we know, there were loads of other people) but the Doctor looks at Rose...because he understands how there can be lots of people...and yet, no one else. It's been 20 years for Jackie...he's not the man she remembers...but they are still in love.

5) Repeatedly Rose and the Doctor have told us that they won't be separated. In the Satan Pit, the Doctor faced with certain death, no route of escape and only a few minutes of oxygen says, "Oh, I'll get back, Rose is up there." In Idiot's Lantern he says, "I'm coming" when she is trapped in the telly and also that "No power on earth" will stop him. When the Doctor send Rose to Earth for a happy life...she gets back to him...when he tries to send her to the other dimension...she gets back to him. Belief the Doctor says is all he needs to work miracles. He believes in Rose. And Rose believes that "They keep trying to separate us but they never, ever will." When he is threatened by the Dalek God she takes the time vortex into her body and rescues him. When a staggeringly powerful alien makes him over into a drawing...she uses her love and the love and belief of others to save him. They put the devil in his place, together.

6) As flavoured just reminded me, they are also alike now, the Doctor and Rose. Both alone. Both defenders of the Earth. Both "the stuff of legends." Both in love. Both determined not to harm the worlds they live in...and yet...equally...able to laugh at the idea of shattering two dimensions to be together. Look at how they are when they are clinging for their lives. Look at how they both face down the Daleks. Look at the way they both talk about "ripping through" the void/barrier. The way he puts his glasses on her. The way they both lean into the wall and their fingertips strain to reach through time and space and the void. If it would be hard to imagine some problem in the universe being more than the Doctor can handle...imagine one that could flummox both him AND Rose...forever. Not bloody likely.

7) The Doctor didn't get to tell her how he feels. It was killing him. It would be admitting defeat to be defeated that way. And the Doctor never admits defeat. He burned up a sun to say a proper goodbye. And that was when he could still delude himself into thinking she and Mickey would be living the happy ever after. Now he knows that won't happen. We know it won't happen...because of the three people together holding hands behind Rose while she weeps and clings to the wall. Because Rose is sleeping alone when she knows Mickey loves her. Rose is the outsider. This is her family together and she's happy about that...but she's looking for a way back to her Doctor...you can bet on it.

Rae

Comments

[allyv.livejournal.com]

Agreed. We may never see it on screen, but I fully believe they'll find their way back to one another someday.

Oh, how I miss you Allyv

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Seeing your icon...sigh. I, too, am a huge benjyelle fan. Though now that they are dancing apart...my loyalty has skewed toward Benji. But I would love to see them as the finale two. They are the sweetest reality couple since one on Beauty & the Geek.

And...oh, yes, the Doctor will get back to his Rose someday. I believe that...even if we never see it on screen.

Rae

[rainblows.livejournal.com]

i'm tearing up right now. bah. this is like the third time i've cried because of this bloody episode.

there definitely *was* no closure. we are left with a real sense of despair for rose. we know that she's not going to move on and be happy because she is now EXACTLY like the doctor - completely alone. and the doctor i know WOULDN'T give up because we all know he DOES love her. it's just so rotten. never before have i felt so miserable for a character.

gaaah. *goes to get tissue to sop up tears*

I agree, sweetie...it is horrible...heartbreaking...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

But only if we reject everything else that Russell T. Davies and company told us about these two characters. Rose is miserable and alone and exactly like the Doctor. I should have mentioned that...notice how she and he both do that "Rip through the void" thing...notice how he jams those silly glasses on her face. Notice how they both figure things out as a team. How they can laugh when she says, "So?" over shattering two dimensions to be together?

They are not about to be parted forever. Because they don't WANT to be parted forever. And they are, as we've seen time and again...the sort of people to get what they want.

Rae

Re: I agree, sweetie...it is horrible...heartbreaking...

[bamfer.livejournal.com]

Rose is miserable and alone and exactly like the Doctor.

I loved reading your post about this, because I didn't get all those intances that you pointed out where they are so alike, despite it actually being explicitly stated in "Army of Ghosts" by Jackie (she tells Rose that she's just like "him").

What I find interesting is that I think he is going to get over this easier than Rose is, not because he doesn't love her just as strongly, but because he's still got the TARDIS, he still has his wandering life, and he was always going to face losing her one way or another. I wonder if in some sense this is almost a relief for him, knowing she's safe and with her family who love her, and now he doesn't have to watch her die (the Doctor is no coward, but he's been through a lot). I also don't think the Doctor loves in quite the same way as humans; his love is huge and not exclusive. I've always thought of him as a man in love with the very universe itself.

Despite my loving "Doomsday" (I was not angry), Rose really has been left in a tragic place. She's so much like him now, but she's going to have to go back to living a normal human life, something he'd never be able to do. The question is, will Rose be able to do it? I hope she's strong enough to still have a fullfilling life, even though you know she's never going to get over him.

My hope is that maybe when the series ends (and that may not happen anytime soon-- look how long the original ran) that they're reunited at that time.

[alyl.livejournal.com]

You know, the Doctor told us himself in this episode that it is the choices we make that create alternate universes. Rose is obviously at the point where she must make a choice about what she's going to do with her life...By this line of thinking it's entirely possible for both of them move on and find happiness while knowing they still love each other (which would be the universe we see in the show from here on out) AND for them to decide that they refuse to give up on one another and ulimately succeed in find their way back to each other (which would be explored in fanfic).

I'm not sure that make any sense but I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too, dammit...

[cheesygirl.livejournal.com]

I wasn't mad at RTD because even though it seems like they're forever separated, there's still hope. They're both determined people and if they find away to be together they will be. Maybe not at the cost of shattering worlds, but you better believe if they found a loophole they'd take it.

I would have only been mad at RTD if he'd let Rose fall into the Void, or if she really had died. Then I'd feel Jossed and be truly pissed off (I'm still mourning my Wesley--damn you, Joss!). As much as the Doctor grieves being parted from her, if she'd died I don't think he could have been able to live with himself.

Well, you said it all better than I could, despite my rambling comment!

[malaleen.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree more. If these were real people and not some characters written for television, I would say that you couldn't be more right.

I agreed with every point made for this essay. One of the things that has really struck me, besides the obvious ending, is the scene where he's explaining the 3d glasses to everyone. The pure joy Rose has as she's following his explanation is so sad. You know she totally understands his plans. When he sneaks up behind her and sends her to the alternate dimension, you could tell it was hurting him.

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever see this on screen, because I don't see Billie Piper returning to DW. But it makes a compelling agrument for continuing on in fan fiction.

Btw--I friended you as apparently I'm not only stalking you for your fan fiction, but now your meta too.

[webeh.livejournal.com]

To be perfectly honest, I feel that I haven't seen enough of Rose/Doctor to consider them as an "it" couple. This season read more as a very close friendship, than a romance. But, I think my opinion would be different if we got a few more seasons of the two travelling together. So, if we don't get another big dose of Rose, I'm never going to consider the pair as romantic soulmates. However, I do think they can still be soulmates, but as friends. (Randomness, but I consider House and Wilson to be soulmates on House. Though, I still slash them like crazy.)

As for Rose being like the Doctor. She definitely is. This is especially obvious in how they act/carry themselves. In the first season, the two had very distinct mannerisms from each other. This season, but have become more like each other, despite the fact that only one regenerated. (Ex. Playing with the hair and random bouncing around.) The most obvious example of this in this episode was when Rose referred to Mickey as the "most brave human she's ever known." She did the very same "carefully selecting words/thinking while talking" noise that the Doctor does all the time. The fact that pair are rubbing off each other so much is something I love. No matter if it's bad habits or good.

The separation and the episodes in general. This might upset people, but I was not happy with this episode at all. Not because Rose/Doctor were torn apart, but because so many things were poorly delivered. I wanted something with less obvious flaws (or flawless), which would have made things more enjoyable for me. I have so many issues with this episode that I can't be happy with it at all. (Also, I thought the episode was lacking in quality dialogue between Rose/Doctor.) Though, I adored the wall sequence. That was a gorgeous scene.

[acadecian.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you about the "it" couple thing.

I really did like Rose/Doctor, and lord knows I was crying like a baby when I saw Doomsday last night. But I know I'll get over it.

Now, let's say they pulled something like this with Mulder/Scully on the X-Files, who I shipped hard core for 9 seasons. I probably wouldn't get out of bed for a month.

[kazzy.livejournal.com]

3) Rose is Rose. She's not a shop girl. She's been a god. She's not about to go back to being ordinary. She' working at Torchwood. Where we already know they have loads of alien technology...enough to open up the door between worlds...not once but a thousand times.

You see, perhaps this is me in complete debial. Actually this is me in complete denial, but I cannot see a reality where Rose accepts the hand fate has dealt her. You're right, she has a lot of access to alien tech and that tech may eventually be the stuff that can take her home to the Doctor. Why wouldn't she? (or is that my insane, grieving shipperness talking?) She's stubborn enough to - she absorbed the Time Vortex. A little thing like the void isn't going to stop her...

_{And I am going to review Disheveled, the last two chapters properly, I promise!}

Ah...you ARE still reading...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Waits impatiently for review...goes to check...comes back here to wait again. HEE!

I will tell you that your complete denial is going to intersect nicely with the Disheveled version of all this. Rose isn't going to just shrug off what happened and pick up with a new life in the other universe. Maybe one Rose will...but not the one standing on the beach. Not the one who says (after it's been months she's been stranded there), "This is the story of how I died."

Now...that line can be taken to mean she is telling us that she found out she was "dead" back home. Or it can be taken that she simply died emotionally...losing him destroyed her...her heart is elsewhere. Or it could be directly linked to what her mother says in the same episode about Rose changing so much that she won't even be Rose Tyler anymore...but a stranger. Not even human. <<---because it certainly seemed to me...the Doctor and Rose were more alike from a staging perspective in this episode...I particularly noticed the three humans holding hands, standing in a line as Rose and the Doctor tried to hold hands across the void.

Hope is eternal.

Rae

[iamtheliquorr.livejournal.com]

Came here through time_and_chips. I just wanted to say this post made me all teary eyed again. But it also made me happy.

I really don't want to think about the new companion now b/c I'm still being sad. I think the door was left open (well, somewhat open) on purpose, just in case Billie wanted to come back for a guest appearance or something. But I loved that the ep ended with a little bit of hope. And it does leave plenty of room for fic!

I want to believe that the Doctor/Rose relationship was unique and special, and that it isn't going to be the same thing again with the next companion. God, I hope not. I'm sure all the haters will jump all over me for that, but whatever. I'm a shipper; I'm going to ship! Someone on my flist predicted there will be ship wars next season with 10/Martha shippers, and I'm like oh jeez, I hope not... While I do agree that the Doctor will probably get over it more quickly than Rose, I like to think she'll always be a part of him somehow. Cos I'm a big old sap that way.

I was also bummed we didn't get a kiss, cos me and my friend really wanted one, but it's OK... I did yell at my screen when he faded away before he could say he loved her, but we all knew, anyway. Still, it was nice to actually see it being said... that whole scene on the beach, really, was just beautiful.

Whatever happens, though, I think I'll be OK. Having had so many of my ships in other fandoms screwed over by canon, canon is no longer the be-all end-all for me. If I don't like canon, I just pretend that whatever I didn't like didn't happen, and that my ship sails on. E.g. in my head, Cordy never died, she and Angel get together, and everything is good. So I guess in my head I'll just believe that somehow Rose and the Doctor find their way back to each other.

And this is probably one of the most random and rambling comments you've received, so I'm just going to shut up now. :p

Well...see...this is the thing...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I want to believe that the Doctor/Rose relationship was unique and special, and that it isn't going to be the same thing again with the next companion. God, I hope not. I'm sure all the haters will jump all over me for that, but whatever. I'm a shipper; I'm going to ship! Someone on my flist predicted there will be ship wars next season with 10/Martha shippers, and I'm like oh jeez, I hope not...

I know there will be 10/Martha shippers or 10/Somebody shippers because that is the nature of shipping. There are a couple of people who responded here who still saw 10/Rose as "just good friends." Which bothers me from a storytellers perspective far more than from a shipper one...because I feel in their case RTD failed completely to get his message across. I have friends who want Rose to settle down with Reinette. They see sparkage.

This is not the same as the people who saw sparkage between Jack and the Doctor...because that was in the script. Shipping can develop out of one glance or touch. People may like Martha's out-an-out disregard of the Doctor and find that sexy. Because shipping can fail to develop with a thousand glances and some very intimate full-body hugs. What I hope is that the show goes back to its roots now...back to the kiddies that everyone seems to insist is the core audience.

I see no problem with this...as long as the stories stay interesting why should we care if the Doctor is in love with his companion? If the core audience can't see the Doctor kiss someone of his own accord...if he can't tell the woman he obviously loves that he loves her. If all of that is just crossing the line into too much schmoopiness...why even bother trying to RECREATE any of it. Rose exists for that purpose...like the children he once had...she's the love he once had...safely tucked away in a literary pocket...yet, another reason for the Doctor's remoteness...saddness...lonliness.

From a storytelling standpoint...Rose should be it for the Doctor's romantic life because the show can't DEAL with the Doctor having a romantic life anyway. So barring the one-shot attractions...and those shipper moments born out of an inadvertant look or touch or backstage photo, I don't see the canon giving him another companion like Rose.

Rae

Rae

So much love for this post. I am c&ping my thoughts

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

from my LJ:

I am a sobbing mess right now. This episode had everything. Action, suspense, fear, heroism, reunions and lost love. Even the bits of humor interlaced perfectly to balance out the consuming drama. It did not disappoint in any way.

The fight with the Daleks and the Cybremen was intense and honestly had me unnerved. Mickey being there because of Rose and her telling him he was the bravest man she had ever known was beautiful. Even his little jokes about Rose's affection for the Doctor were endearing, as he and the Doctor were genuinely happy to see each other. I also loved the Doctor's interactions with Pete and the information he gave about Jackie and Rose. Against insurmountable odds, all the Doctor needed was for them to believe that he could do it all, and of course they did. The Doctor's love of humanity always shines through. Rose facing the Daleks was gripping. She does indeed know about Gamestation and stood up to her enemies with fierce bravery. Never backing down. Even Yvonne did not lose her humanity in the end and did her duty for Queen and country.

Pete and Jackie's reunion made me cry and the unbreakable bond between mother and daughter stayed as consistent as it did from the very beginning of this series. The Doctor would let Rose go so that she may live, but just as I always knew, Rose would not leave her Doctor for a mortgage, for a normal life, not even for the chance to be with her parents. She went back to him and even willingly sacrificed herself to save both universes (and oh the Doctor screaming her name with anquish tore right through me,) and Pete, her Daddy (finally realizing what she was to him) risked coming back to stop her from going into the void. Just as his other incarnation gave up his life to save her. That is what fathers do.

The Doctor and Rose connecting through the wall was heartrending. They could sense each other, just as they always could and Rose's true despair was painfully palpable. But the Time Lord could not let go without a final goodbye and used all the power at his dispoasl to call out to his companion, and she, as always followed his voice. It was only two minutes. But so much love passed between them and Rose's conncern was that he would be alone once again. As she said, he has done so much for her and saved so many many planets, and she tried so hard to make sure he would not be on his own. That was her choice. She would, and did give up anything "domestic" to stay with him. No "daddy issues" from Rose this episode. It was all about her desire to stay with the Doctor. But fate interceded and they were torn apart so that the world could be saved. And she will not just sit pinning though her heart is broken. She is working in her universe's version of Torchwood. Rose Tyler, defender of the Earth. How very fitting that she would take all that he taught her and use it to better the world.

Rose's I love you and the Doctor's obvious attempt to return the words just left me bawling. His tears as he was back on the TARDIS without her said more then anything possibly could, and Rose as always had her mother to hold onto. The picture of them running toward each other on the beach and embracing was very life affirming. And how fitting that it happend in a place known as Bad Wolf Bay.

She was human and imperfect and had moments of selfishness, jealousy and all other flaws that people have, but Rose Tyler proved herself to be brave, smart, loyal, compassionate and above all else fantastic. The Doctor changed her life and she healed his heart. And maybe one day the door will be opened again fo her to come back to him.

Billie Piper created a wonderfully layered and facted character that went from a shop girl to a hero and I felt every emotion she put into her portrayal of Rose. I will miss this character dearly, but am so happy they ended her in a way that was true to her love of the Doctor and her bravery in the face of death.

P.S....

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

Also, wanted to add I never watched DW Confidential before but am so glad I downloaded this last one. The comments by the actors, the crew and RTD regarding Rose, and Rose and the Doctor say it all. Rose would not leave him and he accept this. It took the battle of metal gods and the separation of two uninverses to part them. Nothing else could do it.

[beadattitude.livejournal.com]

Oh,I'm so glad I'm not the only one who was utterly slain by the unfairness and "how could you drop us all those forshadowings and then take it all away?"

I can't remember the last time I cried that hard for a show.

The look on his poor face when he realized he'd mistimed things and lost his chance was just so sad. I'm glad he reined it in during the scene with Rose, because if they'd been both crying, I might have burst a tear duct.

Yeah...I was totally devastated when he started crying...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Until then I held it together. I can't talk about it without getting the scratchy (Yes, I am a wuss) voice...I was mocked at work today for my woobiness. But I don't care. Rose and the Doctor should be together. My heart is breaking for them.

Rae

[irreparable.livejournal.com]

Hi there,

I'm one of the mods of dwliterotica and you were recommended to us as an author that would fit in really well with our community. (Rec is here (http://community.livejournal.com/dwliterotica/677.html?thread=66469)) After reading your fics, myself and my co-mod, rian219 agree that it would be wonderful to have you join our community. The invitation to join is here for you (http://www.livejournal.com/manage/invites.bml). Currently, we have a challenge running (http://community.livejournal.com/dwliterotica/10343.html) which we love if you took part in, and we hope to see you join the community and post your fics.

Star.
dwliterotica Co-mod.

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

OT: Do you ahve to be a member to view the stories?

Thank you for the invite

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I have already stopped in to read a few of the fics and find I am in stellar company indeed. Will probably post the relevant links for Disheveled by way of introduction.

Appreciate the nod.

Rae

Totally Off Topic

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

But if you get a chance, can you check out the latest entry in my LJ? I am asking for some DW help and your tastes are in line with mine. Thanks. :)

[addicted-2-dt.livejournal.com]

I think that Rose will come back, I mean, isn't it obvious. It said everywhere (including the Doctor Who site) that she has signed up for the first series along with Tasty Tennant (a nickname that I made up for him, TT for short). I can't wait until more Doctor Who and more Dishelved (i love it so much!).

Alyssa xxx

[addicted-2-dt.livejournal.com]

I just noticed I said first series - I meant 3rd!

Also she was on GMTV or something doing an interview and she said she'll be in the third series but only *some* episodes! OMG! She's coming back! yay! Go 10/Rose!!! U rock!

[bubbles234.livejournal.com]

Even posts on doomsday make me feel quite sad. God damn RTD.

ANYWAY

*Hands you cookies for your correctness*

I miss the Doctor/Rose relationship in such, SUCH, epic proportions. I also just miss Rose - she was so awesome! :D