Question for the masses...gender identification

[rabid1st]

Okay, I'm one of those people who never really could wrap my mind around the issue of external gender indicators. Like...haircuts that make you look like a girl or a guy when you are not. Or how it is feminine to wear certain clothes. I heard a lot of this from my stepfather growing up. My brother looked like a girl with his long hair and pretty clothes and I "acted like a man" with my take charge attitude. To me, this wasn't so much insulting as a sign that my stepfather was an imbecile. But then, I may be slightly more forward thinking on this issue than some. I don't know.

I suppose I can see how a man who dresses up in silk teddies and fishnet hose and high heeled slippers might be having some gender identity issues. But I can also see how he might dress that way for a stage performance or how alternatively he might find the clothing sexually stimulating and yet still identify as male. I don't think the clothes make the man...or woman...is what I'm trying to say.

But this issue came up with a male friend of mine recently. He took great umbrage to someone suggesting that he was carrying a purse in a photo. Now, they didn't particularly tease him about it in a cruel fashion. But they did laugh because he was wearing a sort of hippie outfit, had long hair and this bag slung from one shoulder to the opposite hip on a long strap. It looked like a purse, but was, in fact, a camera bag. The man in the photo got absolutely furious about the suggestion. He said that it was an insult to him and that it was very insensitive of the person to make fun of him in particular related to his gender. To insinuate that he might look slightly effeminate in the photo.

To my mind, it was all about stereotyping of the most superficial sort, but my male friend was very upset that I didn't see how insensitive it was to "paint him as a feminine" just because he had long hair and a camera over his shoulder. I sort of thought his over reacting spoke to either a long battle with his gender issues (like he'd been teased a lot for this or wondered about it himself) or to a deep seated sense that being seen as effeminate made him less of a man, somehow.

I've never minded when I'm told my hair cut...or my jeans or whatever...made me look like a man. Of course, I do not have many masculine characteristics...so maybe if I'd been less curvy and soft, I would have taken greater personal insult. If you are a slight guy with a pretty face...you might have more sensitivities to being called a girl, I suppose. I suppose the question I have is this: Is it insensitive to suggest that a man is "carrying a purse" or looks particularly effeminate in a photo?

On the same general subject is telling a woman she will make someone a good husband some day...meaning you believe she's behaving in a masculine fashion...or has masculine tendencies like...I don't know...protectiveness or bossiness or something...is also insulting even if you actually mean that you find her competent?

Basically, is it inherently insulting to suggest someone has the "traits pr mannerisms" of another gender...no matter how superficial stereotypical those traits might be?

Rae

Comments

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I think it was extremely insensitive of your friend to insinuate that there is something wrong with femininity and that being told he looked like he was wearing a purse somehow pulled him down from his lofty penis-owning perch.

It implies that women are less than men.

I guess I'm a little sensitive about the subject. LOL

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

My friend thinks you might be a militant feminist. Do you have combat boots and pink camouflage in your closet?

I think he's just upset that he got called on the insult to women implied in his umbrage. But, I suppose, the main concern here is that he finds it insulting so we should just apologize for teasing him.

Rae

[keswindhover.livejournal.com]

I know men who are just as twitchy on this subject. It's a man thing. For example, I had one male friend flat out refuse to borrow a hat of mine, even though it was freezing outside, and it was a harmless, gender neutral, woolly hat - purely because it belonged to me and so was 'a woman's hat'. Whether that makes him insecure I am not sure, but it certainly doesn't make him unusual, in my experience.

The remark about making someone a good husband is a put-down, pure and simple. Don't get too uppity, girl, is the message there.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

But what if it was reversed? What if we refused to wear a "man's hat" or if I said someone would make a good wife? Am I insulting the man by saying that his skill as a cook means he would "make someone a good wife someday?"

I suppose that I could mean that in a belittling fashion, actually. So, yes, maybe it is meant to demean their work or their attributes by suggesting they are not "masculine"...Hmmmm!

Rae

[keswindhover.livejournal.com]

I've heard 'you'd make someone a good wife' used jokingly to a man, and taken happily as joke, usually in the context of cooking. Never heard the reverse 'husband' line used in anything but an aggressive way (oh, except in a gay context, come to think of it).

[onlyoot.livejournal.com]

I think Kes is right, it is usually more of a man thing although I have known women who would shy away from looking anything but completely feminine to the fullest degree. And Ive been (unfortunately) in the company who identify women who display any established masculine 'traits' or who where more masculine clothes, as gay.

I of course dont give a monkeys and have been known to where more 'feminine' articles of clothing. However, because of the way I look, even then I wouldnt be called girly

[audrey1nd.livejournal.com]

First off, I think your friend was over-reacting. So what if someone mistakes your camera bag for a purse? I know guys who actually do carry purses. Both straight and gay so it doesn't matter. Your friend is obviously over-sensitive about it for a different personal reason.
Second, I don't think it's insulting at all. What could possibly be bad about having traits that differ from a gender stereotype? By taking it as an insult you're implying that you should only be allowed to have the traits that stereotype your gender and if someone implies otherwise then they're saying that there's something wrong with you. If it's meant as an insult then obvious the person saying the insult is stuck in backwards times, like you said about your step-father. In these times gender stereotypes are for the most part, outdated. Women wear pants on a regular basis, have jobs and may or may not have kids, men sometimes stay at home with the kids instead, gender reassignment surgery and gays are part of popular media and accepted.
Third, I now have my hair cut really short and my mom keeps saying I look like a boy and asking if I'm a lesbian. Not so much in an insulting way, but as in, this is what you look like and do you mind if you look like that? Thus, even if someone might be mistaken for a gender other than the one they are, they dressed that way and if they're not aware, well they are now and can make the decision as to whether or not they like looking that way despite the fact that they look like a different gender than the one they identify as.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I suppose, to be honest, I'm a little sensitive about this subject on the other side of it. As if I want to flaunt different superficial behaviors in the face of my draconian stepfather, maybe? I took a fair amount of heat for dressing outside a very narrow concept of what "nice girls" wear. I took the same type of heat you are taking from your mom from mine. She thought my short hair cut made me a lesbian. I'm like...no...it's the sex drive that does that, mom! Though, I do know that there is a tendency to dress according to your peer group. This is where the idea of "lipstick lesbian" comes from...as if gay women must cut their hair short and wear lumberjack outfits.

It all seems so very superficial to me. But maybe that's because I do have soft curves and a very feminine face and white skin and so there isn't much chance of me being mistaken for anything but a "whore" as my stepfather liked to say. :pfft: HEE! Sorry, but I also find that one funny. He was a monumental jerk and wrong about almost everything. So it was very hard to internalize his opinions as insulting. Though, of course, I do see the more insidious reactions in society that belittle women.

By the way, my insulted friend found nothing wrong with telling a woman she would make a good husband. Because it implies that she's competent. Of course, that implies that men are more competent than woman...that it is better to be a husband than to be a wife.

Rae
who finds it all superficial...husbands and wives should be equal and therefore interchangeable.

[audrey1nd.livejournal.com]

My best friend is transgendered and refers to transgendered people as "trannies" because she loves the irony of getting lectured about being pc about it. Gender roles, while it's all good for telling whether a baby's a boy or a girl since you know, there aren't any other outward indicators, is becoming something that's more and more outdated, and I feel like that's a good thing. It is all superficial, but at the same time, how you look is a way of presenting yourself and showing the world who you are. Whether your short hair shows that you want to be a boy or you just like short hair can be seen in other ways and while mannerisms are a part of that, stereotyping isn't. My best friend was a boy when she dressed in boy's clothes and looked like a boy, even after her surgery. Stereotypes and gender roles, while I agree that they shouldn't be seen as "you have to be this or there is something wrong with you", do play a role in our society in helping us identify people as male or female, especially when it's ambiguous.
(Sorry I took so long to respond, I started painting last night (after sewing) and got distracted.) And on a side note from that one, I am a fashion major in college and not all the boys in my program are gay, which is another gender stereotype that isn't true.

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

It's definitely something that you have to deal with on a case-by-case basis, I think. Do I think it was insensitive to joke about your friend carrying a purse? Possibly. Some folks have no trouble with that sort of ribbing and some do - probably would have been better to err on the side of caution. Do I think your friend was being oversensitive to the issue? Yes, but that's an individual call. As you say, he may have a history of being teased or be wrestling with gender issues or have been raised in a "man's man" household. Who knows?

Personally, I think it's stupid to claim that various traits are more evident in one gender vs. the other. Even if that's true, IMHO it's a result of societal shaping (like the decades of the wife being relegated to the roles of homemaker and mother) rather than gender, per se.

I'm a woman, and I suck as a cook and hate cleaning. I have very short hair and much prefer pants to dresses any day. I'd make a very poor 50s housewife, but I don't at all think that makes me "manly". I just am who I am.

Would I look twice if I saw a man on the street wearing a dress (but obviously not transgender or cross-dressing, etc.)? Yes, but more because of the novelty than anything else. I remember taking note of a couple of guys wearing utilikilt-type things at the PRIDE festival in San Diego. It was just an unusual sight, but, hell, they were probably a lot more comfortable than I was in that 100 degree heat! LOL

But back to your question...is it inherently insulting to suggest that someone is like another gender? Probably a bit, yes. But a lot depends both on how the sayer said it (i.e. just joking around or seriously being mean about it) AND how the hearer feels about such things (some can take a joke and some are super sensitive to any teasing). As I said before, it's better to err on the side of the caution unless you really know the person you're joking with.

Gender roles are a lot more fluid than they used to be, but there are still plenty of folks out there reinforcing the "manly man" and "womanly woman" stereotypes. Not by being that way ('cause if that's what you're like, good on you), but because that's the way they were brought up to believe people should be. Culture and society are powerful influences and it's hella difficult to change the norms...though thank god people try! :)

[hoegh.livejournal.com]

A lot of course depends on inflection and interpretation with such things. What comes to my mind (and which I've probably mostly stolen from Julia Serano's 'Whipping Girl'), are two things. One, that people tend to confuse gendered expressions with gender. Like you say, being feminine doesn't make you a woman, or the other way round. Telling somebody that they would make a good wife/husband because they are good at something that is considered opposite-gendered, amounts to saying that it makes them the opposite gender (speaking in bipolar gender terms just because I don't want to sidetrack myself). That is basically cissexism, as far as I can tell.

Second, a lot of problems arise because stuff that is viewed as feminine, generally is viewed as inferior to masculine, whether or not it's a woman or a man expressing them. So, when you interpret any of these comments, and wonder whether they are insulting to one gender but not the other, they basically are simply because you perceive a difference (I'm trying to think of an example where with similar but differently gendered comments, it would not be femininity drawing the short straw. I'm tired though. I'm sure they must exist out there.)

In the end I'm all for not having a stick up my ass, where would we be without a sense of humor. But I do believe this shapes the way we view the world.

[(Anonymous)]

My husband cooks, cleans, does laundry, cleans house... and jokes about being a good 'wife'. So... I guess it depends on the person. And then gives me looks if I ask him to hold my purse while I go to the bathroom at the hospital....:)

[susanb03.livejournal.com]

Oops that was me... apparently I got logged out!

[jonesiexxx.livejournal.com]

As hoegh said above, a lot depends on inflexion, humour, context etc. What is acceptable in one tone from someone who knows you and empathsizes with you may be undermining coming from someone else.

I get sensitive about gender stuff. Like Snyder, I didn't date much in high school. And I've always been called assertive and intimidating. So I do sometimes feel insecure about my attractiveness as a woman.

But that's me. My shrink put it in much more universal terms....

I reported once feeling slighted because someone assumed that since I wasn't married I must be a lesbian. Did he think I couldn't attract a man? What was up with me feeling insulted about the imputation of lesbianism? Was I a bigot? etc etc etc. My shrink said, "Well everyone wants to be appreciated for what they are. It doesn't feel good to be told you're something you're not."

Ohhhhhhh....

[hoegh.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a smart shrink to me!!

[gwendolynflight.livejournal.com]

Well, the problem I have with that kind of insult is its necessary corollary that being feminine is a problem, or that things associated with femininity are 'bad'. It's a problem for men that they can lose their 'man-club membership' and I hate that they have this huge fear of displaying traits our society calls feminine. It's especially frustrating when you study the history of emotions at all, because it becomes even more obvious that these are cultural-, class- and period-specific behaviors, not inherently gendered, so why the fear? It used to be manly to cry, for instance. Appropriate manly hair has gone from long to short and back again over the years. It was manly to wear makeup for a while. Argh! So why shove the current 'negatives' off on women and worry you're acting womanly, or someone else might perceive your actions as feminine.

So, doesn't really address your friend's immediate problem, but that's the root of my problem with gender stereotyping, anyway.

[crimedoc1.livejournal.com]

This is not 100% relevant but I thought you might like this story anyway....

My daughter (she's 7) has short hair (although she is growing it out). And she wears a lot of her older brother's hand-me-downs, particularly his t-shirts with sports logos which she loves, so she gets mistaken for a boy sometimes. Frankly, she doesn't much care and neither do I, although I generally do point out gently that she's a girl when it's appropriate.

However, there was one time when she was called a boy that totally threw me (and my kids get a kick out of this story as well). She was only two or three months old, and yeah, I know it's hard at that age to determine gender. But.... she was wearing a PINK onesie, PINK socks, a PINK bib, had a PINK blanket hanging over the handle of the stroller, and there was a PINK burp towel over my shoulder. This child was literally head to toe PINK. (Okay, I admit, I kinda went overboard on the pink after having a boy and not being able to buy anything pink - grin).

Anyway, someone comes up, coos over her a bit, and says, "My, what a cute little boy you have there!"

Huh???????? *giggles*

Oh, no! Not another learning experience!

[astitchintime-9.livejournal.com]

As I agree with most of what's been said here about external perceptions vs. internal identifications, as well as gender roles, stereotyping and subjective values, let's deal with the Miss Manners situation:

Your friend has to know that - even when someone tries to yank his chain - he has choices about how he will react.

He could laugh, and assert that he is so secure in his masculinity that even a comment such as that doesn't affect him.

If he prefers not to be teased, he could, in addition or at another moment, point out to his friend(s) that mocking him hurts his feelings and ask that such behavior stop.

If he's not dealing with a friend, if it's a stranger or acquaintance making personal remarks, then he can just gently point out to them the fact that it's considered impolite to make comments on another person's appearance. Then let it go.

As a friend, once it has been pointed out that this is one area where humor and enjoyment are not shared, then it's a matter of showing respect and kindness not to needle a sensitive person or to persist on a subject about which someone else is sensitive.


It IS rude to make remarks about someone's appearance, you know. It makes the recipient self-conscious. ANY remark can be misinterpreted, and that is why one does not make such personal comments.



Is is wrong of me to be disappointed that your question didn't pertain to "Wild Geese" and meant that you were writing again? Because my mind immediately jumped to your 3rd gender regenerative Doctor, who self-identifies as male. Great scene; great concept!

Re: Oh, no! Not another learning experience!

[hoegh.livejournal.com]

Lol, OMG you addressed the actual question! I agree on all points.

[monkeybatz.livejournal.com]

I ran into this exact senario with my roommate, he had bought a small army bag that resembled some of the squarish purses out there. He thought it was amazing until it was called a purse by his girlfriend at the time and he took such offense. To his credit though, she was spouting ignorance stating someone is going to beat him up for having it. Now he never wears it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with each gender having characteristics of the other and it being pointed out. Take my husband and I for example; the 'old stereotypes' for wives and husbands are that one brings home the bacon and one maintains the house..etc. I bring home the bacon and keep control of our money issues while my husband is the ace in all things wifey. I'm in awe of him for it. Considering the grief I give him sometimes he is right there with a calm attitude and the right thing to do or say.

All I can hope for is that stereotypes and labels will slowly be forgotten because we are individuals. Each one different and unique in our own way. :)