Billie vs. David

[rabid1st]

Come on...? Let's not go there.

My recent comment about David annoying me with his comments about the Doctor's mindset in Runaway Bride...prompted someone else to say that Billie had also made annoying comments. Which I'm sure she has. And if one of her annoying comments inspires ranting in you...rant on. I will try to defend Billie...as someone else tried to defend David (and indeed...as I myself defended David) for his remark. I will look for the good behind what she/he said. For example: Billie is feeling pain, regret and loss over her decision to leave Dr. Who...and she knows her fans are feeling the same thing. So, she's going to express those feelings and be quoted.

But I would rather not let one annoying comment escalate into who is more annoying...person A or person B. Especially, when I adore BOTH A & B and they appear to be quite fond of each other. Overall, I think Billie and David are handling this transition amazingly well. Both of them come across as lovely people who care very much about what they do and continue to wish one another the best. But they are at the center of a media blitz and the media has a vested interest in stirring up trouble to sell papers or magazines. As fans, we should remember that. Everyone is going to be quoted for the most impact.

This loss of Rose and moving on to Martha isn't about Billie vs. David. Both of them should enjoy the most success they can have as people and actors. I want Billie to be a shining star. I want to watch Dr. Who for David's sake...and Russell's. I want to adore Freema as Martha Jones.

I want a Rose/Ten reunion movie...not just for me but because I think Dr. Who deserves a really good film after all these years and NOW they have something people will pay to see. The time has never been riper to bring a great Dr. Who film into being than right now. Young, appealing stars. A reunion fans will talk about online to start buzz. Spiderman and the X-men leading the way. Dr. Who is the next logical step...and David and Billie are the logical stars.

Every comment I make is designed to get my reasons for watching/not watching OUT THERE...so the people in charge can make informed decisions. Not that I think anyone is remotely interested in my little live journal...but the PTB are aware of the fanbase...and I want to represent. I'm sure everyone who is THRILLED with some new comment will also be expressing themselves (as I just did about Russell's comment...simply because it gave me a reason to go on watching a show I've always enjoyed). My Christmas wish for the New Who fandom is we all represent the best in fandom and that none of us express ourselves via fandom wars.

Rae

Comments

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

This is why I try not to take actor comments to heart. They see things vastly differently then those who watch the show. Something of this nature is happening in another fandom I am in. The actor is now coming out against a very popular pairing which is alienating many of his fans. His fangirls say we should fight for what he wants. My reply is, I could care less what he wants. He is paid to act, I am not paid to watch. I watch TV to enjoy, not to make sure any actor has their whims met. This is a totally separate issue from what your post deals with, but it has taught me to take interviews and quotes with a grain of salt.

But for my two cents: Nothing David or Billie has said has struck me as rude. I appreciate their honesty.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I don't find anything they've said RUDE, either. I think they've both been wonderful and warm and lovely. I found David's comment annoying because it undermined all the work Russell had done trying to convince people TRB wasn't a romantic comedy. Russell was trying to entice me (and others like me) back to the storyline. And it was working, with me, until David spoke up.

I am always going to side with the writer (or producer) over anyone else's interpretation of a storyline. RTD knows what he's trying to convey...his success is measured in how well he conveys what he means to the audience. In the BSG fandom...I disagree with Ron Moore about what will sell tickets (keep the ratings up)...and I seem to have called that one dead on...he's lost 1/2 his audience to his 'vision' and insistence on ignoring his show's strengths.

For what it's worth...I totally agree with you about TV...I watch for my own enjoyment...period. And I think the actors are paid to provide me with my enjoyment and I seldom listen to their interviews. But the Dr. Who set is so closed...and really...I'm so torn about watching...I look for tidbits.

Also, part of MY enjoyment in a work is tied up in the quality of the storytelling. Russell is my little squishy puppy right now...I love how he's orchestrated all of this...dealt with the difficulties...and I was happy to see him appear with David and set things right after David went down the "Romantic-Comedy" path for a minute there. I just don't know who to believe...but my money is on RTD. As for Billie, David and Russell...they are all, in my opinion, showing remarkable sensitivity to the fanbase.

Rae

[swankkat.livejournal.com]

I'd love to have a wonderful, thought-out response to this with details and bullets and all that. Unfortunately, my night last night was less than stellar, so I'll have to make do with "Yes, exactly."

Like I said before, I'm trying to remain optimistic. I get annoyed by actor's comments, but it doesn't make me love them or their roles any less. The actors in the X-Files used to say things all the time to the press - often contradictory - concerning the relationship, the ultimate plot line, etc. and I had to learn to just take their words with a grain of salt or ignore them altogether. But when Chris Carter spoke up, you paid attention, because the creator/producer ought to KNOW his own characters.

So yes. I understand.

...actually, i just wanted the excuse to send you a wee bitty teaser again, to whet your appetite. It's just a clip from the line art before I'd decided what I was doing, and it's SO much more complete than this but...
I rather like Ten with his eyes closed.

I hope to have it ready for you tonight as an early Christmas present. Until then...
~Kat
who really should probably just go home at this point

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh...that's lovely, Kat. I so like what you've done with his nose. And I agree, the closed eyes are nice. We don't see that so much in artwork...or photos for that matter...but when he had his eyes closed in AoS and in Doomsday...it made him look very vulnerable.

Yeah...on the fanwars...I have no patience for much of it, truly. I don't tend to care about anything except my enjoyment of the story. If I think something would be good for a storyline...I say so...if, as in the case of BSG...I think something is going to cause a show to be threatened...I say so. There are things I support that I don't think would be good for a show...like House/Wilson...is that a good idea for canon? Probably not! Do I live for the bones they throw me? Yeppers. And if, as in Dr. Who, something is painfully obvious within a storyline but it isn't getting across to everyone...I wonder why that is...because writing is kind of my life.

I'm sure it's the same in any field. When you look at a piece of art you probably go a step beyond where someone who wasn't an artist would go. You don't just say, "Yeah, I like that." You want to share WHY you like it. You ask what makes the art...work. What could the artist have done better? You wonder what YOU would do with the subject...would you have taken that angle...used that light...and so on. And then...when you find something that is perfectly beautiful...you just...bask! <<--trying not to feel envious, no doubt!* ;->

Rae
*or maybe THAT'S just me.

[webeh.livejournal.com]

I'm confused... Who said what?

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Oh dear, I'm really sorry if it came over that way. I really shouldn't write with a teenage son looking over my shoulder and needling me. No, I don't have it in for Billie or anyone else involved. And I'm sure half the stuff these people allegedly say isn't genuine, or at least isn't what they'd say if they could speak freely, which they can't for many reasons. I felt some of the comments she (allegedly) made were a bit unkind to Freema, but nobody's perfect. Least of all me. Won't stop me watching her (not just in DW) and thinking she's doing a great job. Please forgive any hard feelings caused.

It's not really about who said what...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

That's why I didn't say who said. It's about the entire idea of Billie vs. David. It's come up a number of times on a number of lists and I just didn't want it here. Which is won't be...so it's all settled.

My point was basically Billie and David are both nice people as far as I can tell and they are doing their best with this transition and I think the press has a vested interest in stirring up controversy. I would like fandom to rise above fandom warring...not that we WILL be able to rise above everything...but...I'd like to think we were trying.

Rae

Not to worry, Cat

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

You are generally as sensible and level-headed as your name implies. I didn't name you in the above because you are also not the first person I've run across who didn't like the recent Sun article or the collection of quotes from other places put together on Time_and_Chips and Billie-Piper.net. I, honestly, think that Billie was just being emotional about the loss of a beloved role but that's not why I posted this comment. I think David was expressing his enthusiam for doing something new and different. I think the press is stirring up the fanbase.

As I said...David's remark put me off watching after Russell had almost convinced me I wanted to see TRB. I could see how Billie's remark could put someone off watching if they thought there was a good reason to be jealous of Freema. Or put someone off Billie if they just didn't respond well to her regret.

But Billie reminds me of my own feelings...I think she's emotionally attached to Rose and doesn't want to see the Doctor moving on, even if she does wish David and Freema well. I'm in the same boat so...she's not putting me off the show. If I hadn't seen a lot of her on interviews...seen how open she is emotionally...I might have thought her mean-spirited...but I think she is mostly upset at herself (for chosing career advancement over a job she loved). She's just a little heartsick about leaving. And probably torn, as I am, between a desire for the show to succeed without her and a need for Rose to have deeper meaning in the scheme of things.

Rae

One last comment from work...

[swankkat.livejournal.com]

...before I leave for the day and head home to finish that 10/R... *shifty eyes*

We don't see that so much in artwork...or photos for that matter...but when he had his eyes closed in AoS and in Doomsday...it made him look very vulnerable.

Exactly. I've always been a fan of the unabashed show of vulnerability in typically guarded characters or people. Some of my favorite photographs are candids and those taken when the subject wasn't aware. Hence why one of my favorite screencaps, and subsequently icons, is that shot of Ten as he's checking himself out after his regeneration. It looks unintentionally lovely, and that's a wonderful thing. Unexpected, unlooked-for beauty is always my favorite kind.

~Kat
it's definitely NOT just you!

Oh...and in case that didn't make sense above...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

No hard feelings at all. You are one of my favorite online people. I just really hope the fandom doesn't slide into bickering factions now. This is part of my whole problem with any suggestion of flirtation between Martha and the Doctor...because I know it will create factions and wars and hard feelings and divide the fanbase.

And a fanbase divided cannot be good for the ratings.

And it's all so unnecessary.

Something Hollywood hasn't learned despite show after show tanking when they bring in the S3 third wheel. The most they seem to be able to figure out is that when they move from UST to consumation they lose ratings points. They have yet to figure out that it isn't the WHAT but the HOW!

My hope is that RTD knows it's not the WHAT but the HOW that matters. My hope is he has things under control and I, a hard-core Rose Tyler fan, will be proud and happy to go on watching the show next season even sans Rose.

Rae

[halfrek2.livejournal.com]

i am not up on all the interviews and whatnot. can you explain what you meant by

dealt with the difficulties...and I was happy to see him appear with David and set things right after David went down the "Romantic-Comedy" path for a minute there.

thank you.

Sure...I'll try

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Russell was interviewed by Doctor Who Magazine and they tried to get him to say that The Runaway Bride is a romantic-comedy because it follows a particular story-format.

That format is...two people meet...hate each other on sight...have to work together...quibble and bicker and fall in love.

Russell repeatedly denies Runaway Bride is any sort of Rom-Com because "there is no suggestion of romance...that would be very insensitive" and lots of other stories follow the format of two people who don't particularly get along learning to appreciate each other by the end of an adventure. He names the movie "The 39 Steps" and says nobody would call that a romantic comedy.

So...I'm breathing easy as a Rose/Doctor shipper who has a broken heart but still wants to watch Doctor Who. Fans often forget that there must be LOTS of Rose/Doctor shippers out there at the moment feeling bereft and not really wanting to go on watching. But Russell and David need our ratings points to keep the show afloat. Russell remembers that...and so I say he's handling this difficult transition very intelligently. Gently easing us into New Who without Rose...so that people like myself don't bail on the show.

David then comes along and says...Donna and the Doctor "fall for each other by the end" of TRB. This plays directly into the Romantic Comedy format...and suggests there IS a romance after all. So, now we have TWO people (a DWM interviewer and David) suggesting to me that TRB is not a sensitive piece of fan-handling but is instead a romantic comedy. Who do I believe? Maybe I'd do better to just not watch, I think. I don't want to have my heart stomped on after it's already broken.

Enter RTD again...this time WITH David...to say...no, hang on...it's light and fun but it's not insensitive to the fans in mourning. Not a romantic comedy...and I breath a sigh of relief as I shoot a pointed glare toward David for scaring me like that so close to Christmas. ;->

Rae

[larielromeniel.livejournal.com]

I want a Rose/Ten reunion movie...not just for me but because I think Dr. Who deserves a really good film after all these years and NOW they have something the people will pay to see. The time has never been riper to bring a great Dr. Who film into being than right now. Young, appealing stars. A reunion fans will talk about online to start buzz. Spiderman and the X-men leading the way. Dr. Who is the next logical step...and David and Billie are the logical stars.

May your words be seen by the right eyes!

Re: Sure...I'll try

[halfrek2.livejournal.com]

thank you very much for that explanation. it makes sense now.

as one of those "heartbroken" Rose/Dr shippers, i have to say that S3 will be bittersweet. i want to watch the Dr. but i am not ready for "light" fun. i am still not over Rose. not sure i am over losing CE at Nine either. :P dont get me wrong, i adore DT and i like him as the Dr.

i do hope that TRB will be an okay transition. i also hope that at some point Rose will be addressed by the Dr. i have a lot of hope. ;) do note that this is not the first time that my little fangirl heart was ripped out and stomped on. def. not my first by any means.

thanks again for the thorough explanation. it makes me look forward to new Who.

[nyc-iby.livejournal.com]

Erm, can I ask what exactly it is that Billie and David said? I'm a little behind the times. :)

[twichie.livejournal.com]

I read something somewhere (and I can't recall where, I'm sorry!) but it said something along the lines of the bride falling for the doctor. Which I could handle. I mean...who WOULDN'T? Guh..look at him! AND he's heroic too! Who wouldn't fall for him?

And as long as they don't make him the boy-ho in space/time for the next season or two, I'll be okay.

I agree. On all/most counts.

:)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I imagine everyone would love the Doctor. In fact, I have this theory about him in my personal canon...that he has such charisma and charm that humans can't help falling in love with him.

That doesn't translate...as you say...to ho-boy in space/time. I would say it translate into the opposite...a person who must move very carefully so as not to inadvertantly hurt others by not feeling the same sort of attraction in return.

Part of his heroic appeal is his sort of white knight idealism though...which falls into line with the idea of a love lost and quietly lamented. Every knight has his lady fair in an inaccessible tower somewhere.

Rae

You may ask...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...and I will direct you to look up at my answer to the comment by Halfrek2...where I begin..."Sure...I'll try!"

As for Billie's remarks...I don't know which remarks were meant...and it hardly matters because different people find different things upseting. I do know that Billie gave an interview to The Sun...in which she addresses her feelings for David and says she will have a hard time watching the show next season because she can't stand the thought of the Doctor moving on to someone new...to there being a new companion, taking Rose's place. The interview is very nice, in my opinion, as are all of Billie's interviews...in my opinion.

You can find this interview at billie-piper.net and there is also a collection of quotes a bit further down on the main page there where Billie admits she's jealous.

Rae

[fangirljen.livejournal.com]

I'm brand new to Doctor Who fandom, and I am just now delving into things that extend past icons and fic. There is definitely one thing I noticed about the creative forces of fandom: the majority of fans out there seem to be for Doctor/Rose. I have never seen this before. A second thing is the intelligence of that fans. The majority of DW fans are elloquent and well-spoken. It's a breath of fresh air after being involved in fandoms that have some of the most childish bickerings I've witnessed anywhere.

I do hope that fan wars do not break out after series 3 starts. I hold no quams against either David or Billie...but I do find it hard already to like Freema, especially since the interviews I've seen her in make her out to be a bubblehead. But that's neither here nor there, really.

I get the feeling from RTD that Rose will return, especially with him being so adament on having her alive. That, again, is like nothing I have witnessed in canon before. TPTB sometimes seem almost happy to kill off a character, or to dispose of them somehow. The consideration of the fandom is not a factor.

Re: Oh...and in case that didn't make sense above...

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

How sweet of you. Thanks so much. Here is a little Christmas gift for you - it's what I mentioned writing a few days ago.

http://community.livejournal.com/time_and_chips/2914748.html

I hope the link works.

Ack...this reminds me, Cat.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I've been meaning to tell you, I love your writing. It has such a rich texture, I am amazed you read my work, let alone have the time and inclination to praise it.

But even given all that...I can't read any fic just now...not until I've got my own Doomsday bit settled. Just like I write to RTD's canon...I can easily slip into someone else's mental world...and I can't have that when my muse is struggling for a foothold in RTD's world. It's a tribute to your skill that you manage to suck me into the setting within a few lines.

I did start on this fic before and found it brilliant but knew almost immediately that I wouldn't be able to not fall in love with it. Possibly, I commented at the time. I know I flagged it to return to because you have such a vivid way with the language and it's a wonderful idea...in harmony with the canon as far as I can tell...which always makes me happy. ;->

Rae

Re: Sure...I'll try

[marcella-riddle.livejournal.com]

Well, for what it's worth, I don't think he meant fall in the chocolate and roses sense. But he must like Donna to some degree, otherwise why would he ask her to travel with him? She's his rebound.

[marcella-riddle.livejournal.com]

I disagree; Doctor Who is all about change, you can't dwell on the past.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I can see your point...certainly we all have had to adapt to new companions and Doctors before this...and I can envy you your bounce back ability.

But it's not exactly 'dwelling' in the past as yet...is it? As I said somewhere else...asking me to move on at this juncture is like telling the widow at a funeral that old stiffy isn't going to do her much good now that he's cold and she should find herself a live one...how about that guy in the front row?

As for Doctor Who tradition being all about moving on...look at how many people responded to the return of Sarah Jane...looks like THEY were living in the past after 30 years. Can you...honestly...say that David and Billie in reunion movie wouldn't draw viewership?

Rae

I imagine you are correct

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

David probably didn't mean to underscore TRB as romantic-comedy...but he might believe that because another person saw it that way, too. The comment isn't that important in the scheme of things...it is just hard for me to get up my nerve to watch sans Billie and David's remark didn't help matters. From what I've seen of the Runaway Bride ads and clips on YouTube...I like Donna, too. She looks like she would have made a great new companion...so I can't blame the Doctor for offering her a ride.

Also, there is a sort of symmetry to his drawing Rose away from Mickey and her mum. A sort of Peter Pan sense of himself...that he can take someone along on adventures and then drop them back into their lives again without harming them. Even though...historically...his track record on happy companions isn't very good. Elton had that right.

Rae

Re: Oh...and in case that didn't make sense above...

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. I look forward to reading your next chapter very much (nice artwork, too).

Re: Sure...I'll try

[immiinthetardis.livejournal.com]

Thanks for summing it up for me. I had read all these things, I just hadn't linked them together in my head - I've been a bit stressed lately.

But I have to thank our fandom once again, because for any silly people that go over the top with things and don't consider them carefully, we have people who make something seem rational and not as bad as it looks on first glance and then I feel happier.

Thank you. =]

Re: Not to worry, Cat

[immiinthetardis.livejournal.com]

hink she's emotionally attached to Rose and doesn't want to see the Doctor moving on, even if she does wish David and Freema well. I'm in the same boat so...she's not putting me off the show.

She's helping me in the sense that I now feel that I'm not the only one, and I'm not as silly as everyone makes me out to be.

[immiinthetardis.livejournal.com]

My personal opinion, after reading all these comments and leaving one or two where necessary, is that the press are taking comments, exaggerating them and trying to divide us, knowing (they have their spies, I suppose?) quite how dedicated we are to the programme. It could well be jealousy, or support for another, worse-off programme that does it, but as usual, the press are just attempting to make sure that nothing - programme, event, relationship - goes smoothly. At the end of the day, The Sun and others like it, aren't exactly well-known for telling the news, rather their opinions and juicy gossip that they believe people are really interested in.

I believe that we should treat these articles - and any others in the future - with the same reaction as we would treat the other rubbish that the Sun comes out with:

Don't give it the time of day. (and wait for a reputable source to say something sensible =])

And if that made any sense at all, I'll be very happy.

Of course you are not silly

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Mourning the loss of something you love is perfectly natural and quite mature and healthy. In America, at least, our society is conditioned to move forward...move on...but that's not really a natural human response to loss. We need time to heal and shoving our feelings under the carpet to spare people our grief would be silly.

And beyond that...I'm with the person who said nobody PAYS me to watch a show...I pay the show (via ratings points and merchandising) to entertain ME. I'm under no obligation whatsoever to watch something I no longer enjoy.

Rae

This is what I think, as well

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...especially, with the Sun article. It was quite in Billie's face about things that frankly were in bad taste. Insinuating that she and David are involved when she just broke up with her live in boyfriend was pretty darned insensitive. But Billie did a grand job staving all of that off...and still sounded supportive of the show.

I think she's been asked about leaving a lot...and by people she doesn't want to disappoint...and so she's in a position to have some rag of a newspaper make a big deal out of random statements and her natural exhuberance. David is also being hounded about the Doctor's devotion to Rose and about his own tenure in the role. And he is...for the most part...taking it all in stride with a measure of good humor.

As I said...I adore both of them...and wish them both the best.

Rae

Re: I imagine you are correct

[firefaery2.livejournal.com]

I agree that I didn't view David's comment as a suggestion of any romantic involvment between the Doctor and Donna. I took it simply as a throw-away comment about the basic structure of the christmas special- they become fond of eachother by the end.
David may not have thought through the way in which he worded his comment, which has resulted in it causing a stir amoung Rose/Doctor shippers. Then again, I can't say it doesn't irritate me quite how seriously his comment has been taken, the extent to which it has been pulled apart to suggest something that I'm sure he never intended. We should allow for a little error and understand that it would be highly impractical for him to pause before answering every single question to work out all the ways in which we may be alienated by what he says. He meant no harm.
Personally, I watch Doctor Who for the story and, although I am an enormous Rose/Doctor shipper, there was never any question as to whether I would carry on watching the show or not. RTD is a fantastic writer and I think that is reason enough to stay tuned-in. I admit that this next series will be bittersweet, in my eyes at least, because of Rose's absence, and I will be very dissapointed in there is no acknowledgement of the Doctor's grief. However, I trust RTD not to allow the Doctor to move on too quickly for the sake of his story and his audience.
From what I've seen of Donna, I have full faith in her as a decent character and temporary companion. I'm simply extremely interested in seeing where the world of Doctor Who ventures next and, although all the while I'll be missing Rose, the nature of the show is to move on. David, Billie and RTD have, without fail, been fantastic throughout.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I have no opinion on Freema but I wish her well and hope she doesn't take any fandom flack for simply having taken a job anyone would jump at. I put all the handling of transition on the writers and producers. And I know that Rose may never return. I think RTD did the best he could with Rose given the nature of Doctor Who.

And I hope he continues to do the best he can by Rose...securing her place in the Doctor's life. The show should go on...at least for a time...I'm old school enough and just sane enough in my fandom to know that the original series got quite tired and sad in places. Though there were still people insanely fond of it...I think I was one of those people. Certainly, I kept all my tapes and watched 8 when he was on...and jumped onboard with THIS version despite having qualms about the romance angle.

But realistically...any television show has a course to run...the Doctor Who format is limited, even with RTD reimagining it and David Tennant planning to push the envelope on his Doctor. There is only so much they can do and still keep the same format...and fanbase.

In fact, I think part of the problem people have with Rose is that she upsets the format a bit...they feel that the Doctor can't have fallen in love because he never has before...and oh, gosh...it's a soap opera now. Or if RTD were to mention her again...when the Doctor never really mentions people...or bring her back when THAT hasn't really happened in a meaningful sense...it would somehow ruin the show.

Doctor Who is about change. It always has been. But Rose represents more of a change than some fans may be able to deal with...those fans are glad she's gone and hope she's never mentioned again. I disagree. I embrace a fundamental change in the Doctor...one in line with the loss of his people...I embrace him having someone on a distant shore waiting for him to come home one day. Like Odysseus...he might have lots of adventures...travel for the next 20 years and father children on alien women...but I want him to still strive...in his hearts...to get back to Rose.

Rae

Pat...Pat...Pat

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Then again, I can't say it doesn't irritate me quite how seriously his comment has been taken, the extent to which it has been pulled apart to suggest something that I'm sure he never intended.

See how easy it is to get irritated? I'm sorry if people, other than myself, have been casting the gimlet eye at David. I'm sure most people aren't going to go off on him even if he publically states that Martha is better for the Doctor than Rose or whatever. But some people will. Other people might stand up and say "amen"...the problem for me is when they start bickering back and forth like vultures over an antelope carcass.

I adore David...he's talented, sexy and I find his voice very soothing. I often listen to him just to relax (he's like the saxophone). And I think RTD is a fantastic writer, too. But I'm not happy Billie is gone (I don't blame her...I'm just not happy) and I'm not sure about staying tuned...I'm not sure I'll enjoy myself...not like I've enjoyed myself the last two season.

I'll have to think it over. Everyone watches for a different reason and as I said above...in the midst of shipper wars we seem to forget that nobody is under any obligation to watch a television show. Saying you like a show...or dislike it...or are upset by something...doesn't really harm anyone. But it sets off fans in the opposition camp. And that's really not very helpful to producers and other executives. If lots of people agree that a show has tanked, even if those people never speak up...the ratings go down...and the show gets switched to another night...maybe even another network*.

But it's not like I set off on a crusade to shut the show down. And I'm not out to ruin David's career because things aren't going my way or because he said something thoughtless (or with full intent, even). If I ceaselessly mocked people who disagree with me...I could understand people being upset by my taking a stand against no Rose on Doctor Who but as it is...if the show is meant to go on...it will go on without me.

Of course, by the time S3 gets to America...late in 2007, I imagine...I could well be over my Rose-heartbreak and be ready to watch.

Rae
*sorry...a bit of BSG ranting there.

*via wank_report*

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I just fear the stasis and the death of change and the reductive nature of it all.

Re: *via wank_report*

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I can see how that might worry and/or bother you. But if people lamenting loss signaled the "death of change" it would be a very slow moving and sad world, indeed. People mourn...it's not that big a deal. No one would ever remarry or leave their job at KFC if a little mourning stopped the world. But it is a little early for a mature person to expect that everyone will go forward happily into the future, too.

Of course, another way of looking at it...as I've said is that the people who so vehemently dislike RTD insisting the Doctor loved Rose are often saying "I liked the OLD SCHOOL Doctor who never had a romance, best." They fear change and embrace stasis, too. They think that having had a love and losing her is more than their vision of the Doctor can bear. Or that admitting RTD is saying something quite different than what they want him to say is somehow going to change the show in a way they can't relate to any longer.

Personally, I embrace both changes...and I want to find a way to incorporate the sadness I feel at losing Rose into an enjoyment of the show as it goes on. I think a lot of people feel as I do...the question is will they go on watching the show or not. All interested parties...I would imagine, even those who hated Rose Tyler hope the show doesn't lose ratings points over this.

Rae

Re: *via wank_report*

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

It's gotta be due for a ratings-slump at some point, and third season seems like a likely time, especially after Doomsday gave a bit of an impression of being the end of the whole thing (which is why I think the Bride's appearance was a thing of genius). People jumping fandom at this point is totally understandable. Why stay if your object of interest is gone? I gave up on Stargate when Jack left, would probably have abandoned the EDAs if Fitz had been written out and lost a lot of interest post-Anji. I reckon it's one of the beauties of DW, that we can love one bit, hate another, and be indifferent about another bit of it.

But fannishly I think I've got on board with love and romance now, and what throws me a bit is when people who are totally with the love angle seem to be demanding that this now cease. What I honestly get from the canon is that the Doctor falls in love fast and hard and easy, to the point where it'd be weird if he didn't get a bit of flirting and over-attachment to Martha and probably even that bride woman. (Not that canon's all-powerful in fandom, since canonically the Doctor's half-human and almost no one embraces that one. Which is fine and good and I acknowledge my weirdness on that one.)

The One True Love Model I really can't relate to in the same way, because it's incredibly reductive and the Doctor as I know him needs a bit more than Rose to be happy. My Doctor needs the TARDIS and Someone, Anyone, Someone. He's half-human and he needs to be loved, as Morrissey almost sang. Is totally why I was a lot happier with the shipping at School Reunion/GitF, since they gave us some context and truly turned the romance angle into expansion rather than reduction. And I do hate feeling like Ten and Rose didn't give a damn about Jack and Mickey. :(

I hope Martha's a clog-dancing ninja pirate. But I know that this is Very Unlikely. Woe.

Oh, and hi, Nos!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Nice to see you, despite the ominous Wagnerian swell of music in the background. I know you don't get out to comment much but I must know...have you read the flowering cod-(-er *cough)cock piece or do you simply reference it in literarily-appalled spirit?

Rae
perfectly content to be the author of the tacky beach read of my fandom...and having had my fill (as it were) of the throbbing manly member in every alien smut-fic...I remain curious on this one point. ;->

Re: Oh, and hi, Nos!

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I read.... err... some of it? As usual in fic I gave up once the One True Eternal Love kicked in, but I did read a few chapters I'm sure. And I must have looked in now and then to see where it's going, as often happens with long multi-chaptered things where you wonder how it played out. Also people kept sending me bits and I am incapable of not looking at things when prompted to do so by others.

Though really there's nothin' wrong with playing with the AU concept of, y'know, a flowery cock on an asexual Doctor. I've toyed meself with doing Smut-Comedy where Rose is shocked and appalled by the Doctor's, umm, "Doctorhood." Besides, I wrote Ten/Rose babyfic AND a story where Ten'n'Romana kill celebrities, so my literary high-ground in this fandom is... err... some way below sea-level. Possibly near the bottom of an oceanic trench.

Re: Oh, and hi, Nos!

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

PS: Doctor Who taught me that Wagner is eeeevil. I am playing The Clash instead. Woot!

Well, I admit...I am old school on some points

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I suppose I would rather not get so attached to the companions myself. But I totally agree with you about the Doctor falling instantly in love with companions...with bystanders...with ideas...etc. But Sarah Jane, Reinette, Jack and Harriet Jones show us how quickly he can cast people off, too. I think it is important to have one person be different...because...it gives him more depth as a heroic figure.

But fannishly I think I've got on board with love and romance now, and what throws me a bit is when people who are totally with the love angle seem to be demanding that this now cease. What I honestly get from the canon is that the Doctor falls in love fast and hard and easy, to the point where it'd be weird if he didn't get a bit of flirting and over-attachment to Martha and probably even that bride woman.

Like you I know that the Doctor does need more than Rose to be happy. But that doesn't always translate to love interest. I think actually EVERYONE needs more than their other half to be happy. But I also know that unlike the rest of us mere mortals...the Doctor has had a chance to experience a lot of life...and loving someone deeply is part of life. Jackie tells Pete...there was never anyone else...and Mickey smirks (because :snort: ) but the Doctor, cuts his eyes toward Rose. That's what I'm talking about here...not an end to the fun or flirtation but an acknoweldgement that there can be many and still only one. And I am completely with you on School Reunion and GitF showing us (and Rose) that the Doctor can love several people at the same time...and be swept up in giddy infatuations, too. As we see in The Impossible Planet, Rose begins to truly celebrate his love of everyone. But I think, RTD is seeing something else: At his core the Doctor has always been alone. Which is what the basic storyline was telling us...not because of the loss of his people...but because of who he is. He's not like the other Time Lords. And he needs someone with him...someone to hold his hand. He always has had that...but it never changed his being ALONE.

And I don't think it will now, either. The point you make about Rose and Ten going happily on not giving a damn about Jack or Mickey...speaks right to what I'm saying. One of the reasons, I think, that people didn't like Rose as much in S2...is because Rose really is suited to the Doctor. She completes him, as RTD says. And...as Jackie says...that's a scary thing in a human. Rose was in AoG (I would say in T&C) well on her way to being "not even human." Well on her way to completing the Doctor. And I think she got there in Doomsday when she stares him down after coming back. She's not being childish...she's being him and he can't argue with it even if it makes him angry.

I am sure you are familiar with the Odyssey...and maybe you, like me, thought he should have stayed on the sea instead of returning to that drip Penelope...but the thing is...the Greek idea of "like-mindedness" is played out in their devotion to each other. And I think that is the model RTD may be going for in Doctor Who. That Rose and the Doctor have a certain homophrosyne that unites them across the void but doesn't stop them from living fulfilled lives and going on with their respective missions.

Ask yourself, is it really so bad to believe that after 20 years of service (and kick-ass alien stomping) the Doctor might have a home somewhere? Seems kind of...petty to deny him rest...forever. Forever is the word Rose uses to get that smile out of him and you will note, he can't bring himself to use it about her stay in Pete's World. I think it is petty to deny him a person who truly completes him and a place he could stay forever when we know he's mentioned the restful life as one "he can never have." He always says it wistfully rather than as if he finds it appalling. Life with Rose may not seem like paradise to everyone...but there is a good bit of evidence it looked like paradise to the Doctor.

Rae

I am schmoopy there's no denying it

[(Anonymous)]

I play to my fanbase and dare not go schmoopless even if my fellow librarians are appalled by my relentless candor and lack of literary ambition. As to the Doctorhood, I find it being ordinary...ordinary...and I enjoyed playing with the idea of it being a tentacled thing when Rose first encounters it...as that seems to be the other way to go in SciFi.

Since you are not a fan of eternal one true loves...you will not wish to be counted among my readers even assuming you could tolerate my excessively purple prose...however, that, too, is fine by me and perfectly understandable. I prefer Robert Parker, myself.

Rae
also listening to the Clash...so we have some solidarity here.

Re: Well, I admit...I am old school on some points

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

But Sarah Jane, Reinette, Jack and Harriet Jones show us how quickly he can cast people off, too. I think it is important to have one person be different...because...it gives him more depth as a heroic figure.

But to me it's a shallowness. It kills his empathy, his depth of feeling. It reduces him to being about Rose, kills a lot of potential for his future. At least, it does for me. I don't want a Doctor who can't care. Because what's the point of him then? It means his story is over, which is a bit depressing, innit? And that's not even getting into what it means to the viewer, who in that scenario has just been told that they might as well stop watching because romance is no longer on the menu even after it worked for two seasons.

Jackie tells Pete...there was never anyone else...and Mickey smirks (because :snort: ) but the Doctor, cuts his eyes toward Rose.

I took that as cos she too knows it's a big lie Jackie's telling. He knows Jackie's ways, omg!

At his core the Doctor has always been alone.

Totally. That this remains a constant theme even with Rose right there shows how deeps it's meant to go, as does that stuff about his Lonely Emo Childhood. If he's not unique he does lose something and I even agree with the idea that this was a bit of a problem back when Romana was in the TARDIS, different as she was from our title character.

One of the reasons, I think, that people didn't like Rose as much in S2...is because Rose really is suited to the Doctor. She completes him, as RTD says.

Ah, but to me she doesn't. She really doesn't. She's not that good a match to me, which is a large part of why Rose as One True Eternal Love seems wee bit a insane to me. He's been completed by people before since that's half the purpose of a companion, and he was happy enough to ditch her for Reinette. (Which makes me think he's looking for something, but doesn't quite know what it is.) And Rose... doesn't challenge him, doesn't Get It entirely, isn't really there for anything other than the Doctor. As a passing fancy, absolutely, but she doesn't strike me at all as a suitable other half for the Doctor. Also I think I have £5 somewhere on RTD coming out with the same line for Martha. Because it seems very likely.

Ask yourself, is it really so bad to believe that after 20 years of service (and kick-ass alien stomping) the Doctor might have a home somewhere?

Maybe he does, but Rose don't seem like she's it. Honestly what I get from it. On the other hand, is it so hard to believe that he should get to live and love (and, sadly, lose) again? That 'verse has no shortage of smart, attractive, compassionate women, and goodness knows the Doctor's shown an interest in enough of them. Just as long as they don't ask for any sort of commitement whatsoever he's happy.

Re: I am schmoopy there's no denying it

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

You know how everyone's got bits of canon they can ignore and bits they can't? I think the Doctorhood may be one of those for me, and we know that it looks like a... humanhood. Though I am very amused by the idea of someone going "WTF is that thing?" about it.

I'm just awful at one true love. Always have been, any fandom and outwith fandom as well. DW I seem to have a kind of kneejerk horror of the notion, which is strange I know but there you go. Though I've thought of playing with the idea that he does have one and it's the Dead Wife and then writing something incredibly weird and dark where the Doctor keeps trying to replace her. Because I am really, really bad at trying to write One True Love and keep breaking up my ships to watch them emo about it.

Though bear in mind I reckon the Doctor's real name is Morris Love or possibly Arthur.

Yes, we obviously have reached an impasse

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...on our idealism. You have a knee-jerk reaction to OTL and I have a need to elevate everything to epic proportions (with the possible exception of the Doctor's Doctorhood). Perhaps, you are now hearing Wagner.

But this is the heart, as I say elsewhere, of every fandom boondoggle...people just don't have the same needs. And we all want our heroes to reflect our own ideals. So we squabble...uselessly...because the show is going to just go on fumbling in the dark...reflecting the ideals of its creator and the BBC.

Incidentally, I give him human genitalia in Suicide Blonde (though it has even more OTL overtones, sadly)...and I've toyed recently with the idea of a ficlet where Jackie learns about the Orchid-nature of it and can't stop laughing. Rose tells her mum that the Doctor doesn't have to look human...he can have two heads or no head. And Jackie says, "Two heads? Down there? Oh, now that would be interesting."

Rae

Re: Yes, we obviously have reached an impasse

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I do epic it up, but I go for The Myth Of The Lonely God more than I think you do? The uniqueness of The Oncoming Storm and how he constantly needs someone because of that, with the central irony that a) it can't happen because he's too differnt from everyone else and b) he doesn't completely want it either. Plenty of people get one epic romance, but those people don't live in Magic Time-Travelling Boxes. The more epicness I can fit in, the happier I am. And I totally overmythologise the half-human thing. Hybrid demi-god, dude! Whee! That and I do like DW having an unusual angle by not prioritising Romantic Love, since that's everywhere and it can get a bit samey after a while. YMMV, but it takes all sorts to make a fandom, don't it?

Possibly one reason it's historically been such a... "lively" fandom is because of the constant change of creators. We don't have a Creator-God they way X-Files or Buffy does. Every idea is transcient and maybe of the approaches don't fit together. Verity Lambert soooo didn't intend that the Doctor was on Earth hiding the Hand of Omega, but Andrew Cartmel reckoned that was a sound notion. Understandable that people argue when that sort of thing is going on. (I think Cartmel was the first to get vastly into the "she completes him" thing, curiously enough.) Looms or human mother or something else entirely, y'know?

And of course, the Doctor would never cheat on [Insert Name Here]. ;)