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rabid1stI agree, completely, that this is the viable alternative line to the Doctor switch. If Gallifrey comes back...the Doctor is no longer sad...and we don't have to worry about when Gallifrey is coming back anymore. And RTD often takes the line that everyone believes in...because it is "blockbuster" TV. Certainly...this guy makes a few good points...
http://www.sliceofscifi.com/2008/05/09/doctor-who-theories-facts-speculations/
Though he also misses a lot, because he's not old school.
My impression was not that Russell meant to convey that Time Lords abhor FACTS, re: Jack being a fixed point in time and space. But rather I feel he meant that Rose has done something no Time Lord would fathom...created a fixed point in time and space around one person, making him eternal. The rest of that Utopia speech is about that...really...how Rose does what no Time Lord would do. She is a perfect compliment for the Doctor, because she thinks of things he would never even consider. To be fair, however, I must say that this guy above's theory about the Master's reaction to the handy spare hand...using it to manipulate the TARDIS...is probably quite right. And there goes a large part of my save for the Master, if that's true. SIGH!
Okay...so...I have mentioned this theory a lot over the last few years...but I never go on about it because I don't like it. Yes! It would make the geek boys very happy...as they have been predicting this all along, finding hidden clues in the text (just like ME...:snicker:). I would say, that in my opinion, there is no overwhelming evidence in canon that Gallifrey is coming back. But what does THAT matter? People expect it. And RTD doesn't need to seed for something that is this obvious. The 456 are named for a frequency...therefore...sound kills them. People have been talking about the Time Lords returning since we learned they were gone. Gallifrey is gone + the Doctor is sad about it = Gallifrey Returns. Once you mention something...it is natural to bring it back because it becomes iconic. Obviously!
Yet, I think having Gallifrey back removes most of what is truly unique about New Who...it's a huge step backward for the show. There are so many new and brilliant ideas that have come out of this simple loss of support for the Doctor. I really hate to make him one of many again. Why is he so desperate to save the day when the Time Lords can just set it all right with a wink and a nod? But Moffat would have to recreate the Doctor (no longer a law unto himself...back to being a meddler) and it does allow another re-imagining opportunity, about the Doctor's relationship to these people of his.
And, there is, also, Dalek Caan and the mocking of Davros...right there in Journey's End. Dalek Caan brought Davros back...so, of course, the Doctor (should he be desperate enough) could also go back in time and go mad and beat the lock to save Gallifrey. The TARDIS could tow it out...just like it towed the Earth home.
And there is the Doctor's unfathomable sorrow. He killed his own people...he can't forgive himself and so he can't allow himself any happiness. If he gives his life, which he holds so precious, to save his people...then he could be forgiven. And it's spectacle. It's a Time War, big CGI moments, and madness...and the Master and his TARDIS and the Doctor and HIS TARDIS...explosions and sacrifice...and the black sheep saving the day...by breaking the law...because they are rebels to the core. We cheer it and we are happy the Doctor dies happy, seeing his home world restored in the heavens.
It doesn't actually address anything...and it is a huge reset of New Who. But it does allow Moffat to have a ready made storyline, introducing that snooty culture he obviously loves. River Song remains relevant because she asks about Donna Noble and knows she is at one of those delicate moments where time can change. It definitely suits RTD's seat of the pants style...no need to address any issues...plot over the seasons...just make it all go away...Gallifrey back...all better now.
For me, the Doctor has always been more connected to humanity than to his people. And while it is nice to think of Gallifrey sitting out there in space...I think, by far, the bolder thing to do is to have the Doctor be the last of his kind. To make the story what it really always was...this lone, odd alien helping the human race become better. He is connected to Earth...and I firmly believe that the more mature course for the show is for the Doctor to accept a new role, as a guide for the development of the humans on their path to dominance in the universe. Because as the Shadow Proclamation lady said...the time of the Time Lords is past. And people forget, the Time Lords were never a featured part of the show...they were a rarely used plot device. And focusing on them now...would take a lot of the drama out of the show...because, of course, THEY could save people so thing wouldn't be difficult for the Doctor anymore...which just seems silly to me. It would be far better to give the Doctor a mission and a rival than to give him another excuse to run away from responsibilty.
But, bringing Gallifrey back doesn't completely remove the pony option from the table...because if anyone can fix the mess of the Doctor/Donna it is a bunch of Time Lords. They could stick him in his alternative body as a punishment...or they could burn the burning-mind out of Donna and return whatever she gave to 10.5, fixing her and making him a bony hand again. They could put the Doctor on trial for his crimes. Give him a happy life as a punishment/reward for his breaking the law. Wilf could plead for clemency in a trial. Bad Wolf Rose could come into play at any time...since she saw all of time and space...and it could be that Dalek Caan saw her when he too saw all of time and space. But I think, if we are saving the Time Lords...it's spectacle and wooly thinking after Christmas. It's the last ten minutes we all dread where magic reigns in RTD-World, but it's been expanded to a full hour. Still, I am hopeful, because even if we go with something completely balmy to create a reset...maybe it will be effective and uplifting...which is of the good.
http://www.sliceofscifi.com/2008/05/09/doctor-who-theories-facts-speculations/
Though he also misses a lot, because he's not old school.
My impression was not that Russell meant to convey that Time Lords abhor FACTS, re: Jack being a fixed point in time and space. But rather I feel he meant that Rose has done something no Time Lord would fathom...created a fixed point in time and space around one person, making him eternal. The rest of that Utopia speech is about that...really...how Rose does what no Time Lord would do. She is a perfect compliment for the Doctor, because she thinks of things he would never even consider. To be fair, however, I must say that this guy above's theory about the Master's reaction to the handy spare hand...using it to manipulate the TARDIS...is probably quite right. And there goes a large part of my save for the Master, if that's true. SIGH!
Okay...so...I have mentioned this theory a lot over the last few years...but I never go on about it because I don't like it. Yes! It would make the geek boys very happy...as they have been predicting this all along, finding hidden clues in the text (just like ME...:snicker:). I would say, that in my opinion, there is no overwhelming evidence in canon that Gallifrey is coming back. But what does THAT matter? People expect it. And RTD doesn't need to seed for something that is this obvious. The 456 are named for a frequency...therefore...sound kills them. People have been talking about the Time Lords returning since we learned they were gone. Gallifrey is gone + the Doctor is sad about it = Gallifrey Returns. Once you mention something...it is natural to bring it back because it becomes iconic. Obviously!
Yet, I think having Gallifrey back removes most of what is truly unique about New Who...it's a huge step backward for the show. There are so many new and brilliant ideas that have come out of this simple loss of support for the Doctor. I really hate to make him one of many again. Why is he so desperate to save the day when the Time Lords can just set it all right with a wink and a nod? But Moffat would have to recreate the Doctor (no longer a law unto himself...back to being a meddler) and it does allow another re-imagining opportunity, about the Doctor's relationship to these people of his.
And, there is, also, Dalek Caan and the mocking of Davros...right there in Journey's End. Dalek Caan brought Davros back...so, of course, the Doctor (should he be desperate enough) could also go back in time and go mad and beat the lock to save Gallifrey. The TARDIS could tow it out...just like it towed the Earth home.
And there is the Doctor's unfathomable sorrow. He killed his own people...he can't forgive himself and so he can't allow himself any happiness. If he gives his life, which he holds so precious, to save his people...then he could be forgiven. And it's spectacle. It's a Time War, big CGI moments, and madness...and the Master and his TARDIS and the Doctor and HIS TARDIS...explosions and sacrifice...and the black sheep saving the day...by breaking the law...because they are rebels to the core. We cheer it and we are happy the Doctor dies happy, seeing his home world restored in the heavens.
It doesn't actually address anything...and it is a huge reset of New Who. But it does allow Moffat to have a ready made storyline, introducing that snooty culture he obviously loves. River Song remains relevant because she asks about Donna Noble and knows she is at one of those delicate moments where time can change. It definitely suits RTD's seat of the pants style...no need to address any issues...plot over the seasons...just make it all go away...Gallifrey back...all better now.
For me, the Doctor has always been more connected to humanity than to his people. And while it is nice to think of Gallifrey sitting out there in space...I think, by far, the bolder thing to do is to have the Doctor be the last of his kind. To make the story what it really always was...this lone, odd alien helping the human race become better. He is connected to Earth...and I firmly believe that the more mature course for the show is for the Doctor to accept a new role, as a guide for the development of the humans on their path to dominance in the universe. Because as the Shadow Proclamation lady said...the time of the Time Lords is past. And people forget, the Time Lords were never a featured part of the show...they were a rarely used plot device. And focusing on them now...would take a lot of the drama out of the show...because, of course, THEY could save people so thing wouldn't be difficult for the Doctor anymore...which just seems silly to me. It would be far better to give the Doctor a mission and a rival than to give him another excuse to run away from responsibilty.
But, bringing Gallifrey back doesn't completely remove the pony option from the table...because if anyone can fix the mess of the Doctor/Donna it is a bunch of Time Lords. They could stick him in his alternative body as a punishment...or they could burn the burning-mind out of Donna and return whatever she gave to 10.5, fixing her and making him a bony hand again. They could put the Doctor on trial for his crimes. Give him a happy life as a punishment/reward for his breaking the law. Wilf could plead for clemency in a trial. Bad Wolf Rose could come into play at any time...since she saw all of time and space...and it could be that Dalek Caan saw her when he too saw all of time and space. But I think, if we are saving the Time Lords...it's spectacle and wooly thinking after Christmas. It's the last ten minutes we all dread where magic reigns in RTD-World, but it's been expanded to a full hour. Still, I am hopeful, because even if we go with something completely balmy to create a reset...maybe it will be effective and uplifting...which is of the good.
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Yes...I had hoped that Bad Wolf Rose
Date: 2009-08-01 05:29 am (UTC)You put your finger right on the exact nub of the problem with bringing back Gallifrey as an end game. It just lets the Doctor run away from this challenge. Even if we do what I think is likely at this point...and have a grand sacrifice from the Doctor to bring them back...then we still are losing so much opportunity for growth. I mean...he HAS help...he's always had it...it's the humans!
But, I have to be honest with myself here...killing Ten while breaking the time lock and bringing back Gallifrey may well be all that RTD thinks he needs to do. He could figure...if the Doctor dies saving Gallifrey...all is set right. And then Moffat could deal with the power struggle that follows.
I am pretty sure we won't get a stay and help them rebuild scenario...but we might get a more active meddling scenario from Time Lords in the Moffat era. The reason the Doctor runs away...is that staying is boring. His psychological issues aside, I mean. Rebuilding wouldn't work for long. But...you could do a loose season arc around the Time Lords trying to re-establish their power. The Doctor then becomes a sort of pawn in a larger game...and the fun for Moffat and Matt is the resistance to authority.
Rae
who is a big fan of Time Lords changing, too...and thinks they should definitely come back...but not just at this moment when there is so much more they can do with a Doctor who is growing even closer to humans than ever.
Re: Yes...I had hoped that Bad Wolf Rose
Date: 2009-08-01 03:18 pm (UTC)If I were going to use Jack for anything, I think it would be helping the Doctor get back to Pete’s World. After all, the energy Rose put into Jack is the same energy that the Tardis uses for fuel. And the reason the Doctor can’t hop between realities is that that energy doesn’t exist in the Void or Pete’s World. That’s what he told Mickey in “Rise of the Cybermen”: “The TARDIS draws its power off the universe, but it’s the wrong universe. It’s like diesel in a petrol engine.” That’s why he gave away ten years of his life to recharge one of the Tardis’s power cells. What he doesn’t seem to realize is that Rose left him an emergency gas can for just such an occasion.
But if Jack isn’t going to be a part of the story RTD is telling, then I guess I’ll be staying in my AU, where there’s a reason for everything Jack has gone through since “The Parting of the Ways.”
But, I have to be honest with myself here… killing Ten while breaking the time lock and bringing back Gallifrey may well be all that RTD thinks he needs to do.
You’re probably right. Just like he probably thinks the Doctor having Christmas dinner with what’s-his-name in “The Next Doctor” was just as good as him having Christmas dinner with Jackie and Mickey in “The Christmas Invasion.” I disagree, but I’m not the one telling the story.
The reason the Doctor runs away… is that staying is boring. His psychological issues aside, I mean. Rebuilding wouldn’t work for long.
Well, it could happen off-screen, just like him spending a lifetime with Rose could happen off-screen. (In fact, he could do both at the same time.) But one of the themes of the series has been that the Doctor needs to learn to see things through. If he’d stayed on Satellite Five a little bit longer after he and Rose defeated the Jagrafess, “Bad Wolf” and “The Parting of the Ways” might not have happened. If he’d stayed on Earth a little longer after he brought down Harriet Jones’s government, “The Sound of Drums” and “Last of the Time Lords” might not have happened. I think we need to see him choose to stay and see something through, even if we fast-forward past the boring parts.
But I think you’re right that it’s not going to happen. It’s not so much that RTD isn’t telling the story I thought he was as that he’s not really telling a story at all. He’s like Jackson Pollock throwing paint on canvas instead of painting.