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rabid1stI agree, completely, that this is the viable alternative line to the Doctor switch. If Gallifrey comes back...the Doctor is no longer sad...and we don't have to worry about when Gallifrey is coming back anymore. And RTD often takes the line that everyone believes in...because it is "blockbuster" TV. Certainly...this guy makes a few good points...
http://www.sliceofscifi.com/2008/05/09/doctor-who-theories-facts-speculations/
Though he also misses a lot, because he's not old school.
My impression was not that Russell meant to convey that Time Lords abhor FACTS, re: Jack being a fixed point in time and space. But rather I feel he meant that Rose has done something no Time Lord would fathom...created a fixed point in time and space around one person, making him eternal. The rest of that Utopia speech is about that...really...how Rose does what no Time Lord would do. She is a perfect compliment for the Doctor, because she thinks of things he would never even consider. To be fair, however, I must say that this guy above's theory about the Master's reaction to the handy spare hand...using it to manipulate the TARDIS...is probably quite right. And there goes a large part of my save for the Master, if that's true. SIGH!
Okay...so...I have mentioned this theory a lot over the last few years...but I never go on about it because I don't like it. Yes! It would make the geek boys very happy...as they have been predicting this all along, finding hidden clues in the text (just like ME...:snicker:). I would say, that in my opinion, there is no overwhelming evidence in canon that Gallifrey is coming back. But what does THAT matter? People expect it. And RTD doesn't need to seed for something that is this obvious. The 456 are named for a frequency...therefore...sound kills them. People have been talking about the Time Lords returning since we learned they were gone. Gallifrey is gone + the Doctor is sad about it = Gallifrey Returns. Once you mention something...it is natural to bring it back because it becomes iconic. Obviously!
Yet, I think having Gallifrey back removes most of what is truly unique about New Who...it's a huge step backward for the show. There are so many new and brilliant ideas that have come out of this simple loss of support for the Doctor. I really hate to make him one of many again. Why is he so desperate to save the day when the Time Lords can just set it all right with a wink and a nod? But Moffat would have to recreate the Doctor (no longer a law unto himself...back to being a meddler) and it does allow another re-imagining opportunity, about the Doctor's relationship to these people of his.
And, there is, also, Dalek Caan and the mocking of Davros...right there in Journey's End. Dalek Caan brought Davros back...so, of course, the Doctor (should he be desperate enough) could also go back in time and go mad and beat the lock to save Gallifrey. The TARDIS could tow it out...just like it towed the Earth home.
And there is the Doctor's unfathomable sorrow. He killed his own people...he can't forgive himself and so he can't allow himself any happiness. If he gives his life, which he holds so precious, to save his people...then he could be forgiven. And it's spectacle. It's a Time War, big CGI moments, and madness...and the Master and his TARDIS and the Doctor and HIS TARDIS...explosions and sacrifice...and the black sheep saving the day...by breaking the law...because they are rebels to the core. We cheer it and we are happy the Doctor dies happy, seeing his home world restored in the heavens.
It doesn't actually address anything...and it is a huge reset of New Who. But it does allow Moffat to have a ready made storyline, introducing that snooty culture he obviously loves. River Song remains relevant because she asks about Donna Noble and knows she is at one of those delicate moments where time can change. It definitely suits RTD's seat of the pants style...no need to address any issues...plot over the seasons...just make it all go away...Gallifrey back...all better now.
For me, the Doctor has always been more connected to humanity than to his people. And while it is nice to think of Gallifrey sitting out there in space...I think, by far, the bolder thing to do is to have the Doctor be the last of his kind. To make the story what it really always was...this lone, odd alien helping the human race become better. He is connected to Earth...and I firmly believe that the more mature course for the show is for the Doctor to accept a new role, as a guide for the development of the humans on their path to dominance in the universe. Because as the Shadow Proclamation lady said...the time of the Time Lords is past. And people forget, the Time Lords were never a featured part of the show...they were a rarely used plot device. And focusing on them now...would take a lot of the drama out of the show...because, of course, THEY could save people so thing wouldn't be difficult for the Doctor anymore...which just seems silly to me. It would be far better to give the Doctor a mission and a rival than to give him another excuse to run away from responsibilty.
But, bringing Gallifrey back doesn't completely remove the pony option from the table...because if anyone can fix the mess of the Doctor/Donna it is a bunch of Time Lords. They could stick him in his alternative body as a punishment...or they could burn the burning-mind out of Donna and return whatever she gave to 10.5, fixing her and making him a bony hand again. They could put the Doctor on trial for his crimes. Give him a happy life as a punishment/reward for his breaking the law. Wilf could plead for clemency in a trial. Bad Wolf Rose could come into play at any time...since she saw all of time and space...and it could be that Dalek Caan saw her when he too saw all of time and space. But I think, if we are saving the Time Lords...it's spectacle and wooly thinking after Christmas. It's the last ten minutes we all dread where magic reigns in RTD-World, but it's been expanded to a full hour. Still, I am hopeful, because even if we go with something completely balmy to create a reset...maybe it will be effective and uplifting...which is of the good.
http://www.sliceofscifi.com/2008/05/09/doctor-who-theories-facts-speculations/
Though he also misses a lot, because he's not old school.
My impression was not that Russell meant to convey that Time Lords abhor FACTS, re: Jack being a fixed point in time and space. But rather I feel he meant that Rose has done something no Time Lord would fathom...created a fixed point in time and space around one person, making him eternal. The rest of that Utopia speech is about that...really...how Rose does what no Time Lord would do. She is a perfect compliment for the Doctor, because she thinks of things he would never even consider. To be fair, however, I must say that this guy above's theory about the Master's reaction to the handy spare hand...using it to manipulate the TARDIS...is probably quite right. And there goes a large part of my save for the Master, if that's true. SIGH!
Okay...so...I have mentioned this theory a lot over the last few years...but I never go on about it because I don't like it. Yes! It would make the geek boys very happy...as they have been predicting this all along, finding hidden clues in the text (just like ME...:snicker:). I would say, that in my opinion, there is no overwhelming evidence in canon that Gallifrey is coming back. But what does THAT matter? People expect it. And RTD doesn't need to seed for something that is this obvious. The 456 are named for a frequency...therefore...sound kills them. People have been talking about the Time Lords returning since we learned they were gone. Gallifrey is gone + the Doctor is sad about it = Gallifrey Returns. Once you mention something...it is natural to bring it back because it becomes iconic. Obviously!
Yet, I think having Gallifrey back removes most of what is truly unique about New Who...it's a huge step backward for the show. There are so many new and brilliant ideas that have come out of this simple loss of support for the Doctor. I really hate to make him one of many again. Why is he so desperate to save the day when the Time Lords can just set it all right with a wink and a nod? But Moffat would have to recreate the Doctor (no longer a law unto himself...back to being a meddler) and it does allow another re-imagining opportunity, about the Doctor's relationship to these people of his.
And, there is, also, Dalek Caan and the mocking of Davros...right there in Journey's End. Dalek Caan brought Davros back...so, of course, the Doctor (should he be desperate enough) could also go back in time and go mad and beat the lock to save Gallifrey. The TARDIS could tow it out...just like it towed the Earth home.
And there is the Doctor's unfathomable sorrow. He killed his own people...he can't forgive himself and so he can't allow himself any happiness. If he gives his life, which he holds so precious, to save his people...then he could be forgiven. And it's spectacle. It's a Time War, big CGI moments, and madness...and the Master and his TARDIS and the Doctor and HIS TARDIS...explosions and sacrifice...and the black sheep saving the day...by breaking the law...because they are rebels to the core. We cheer it and we are happy the Doctor dies happy, seeing his home world restored in the heavens.
It doesn't actually address anything...and it is a huge reset of New Who. But it does allow Moffat to have a ready made storyline, introducing that snooty culture he obviously loves. River Song remains relevant because she asks about Donna Noble and knows she is at one of those delicate moments where time can change. It definitely suits RTD's seat of the pants style...no need to address any issues...plot over the seasons...just make it all go away...Gallifrey back...all better now.
For me, the Doctor has always been more connected to humanity than to his people. And while it is nice to think of Gallifrey sitting out there in space...I think, by far, the bolder thing to do is to have the Doctor be the last of his kind. To make the story what it really always was...this lone, odd alien helping the human race become better. He is connected to Earth...and I firmly believe that the more mature course for the show is for the Doctor to accept a new role, as a guide for the development of the humans on their path to dominance in the universe. Because as the Shadow Proclamation lady said...the time of the Time Lords is past. And people forget, the Time Lords were never a featured part of the show...they were a rarely used plot device. And focusing on them now...would take a lot of the drama out of the show...because, of course, THEY could save people so thing wouldn't be difficult for the Doctor anymore...which just seems silly to me. It would be far better to give the Doctor a mission and a rival than to give him another excuse to run away from responsibilty.
But, bringing Gallifrey back doesn't completely remove the pony option from the table...because if anyone can fix the mess of the Doctor/Donna it is a bunch of Time Lords. They could stick him in his alternative body as a punishment...or they could burn the burning-mind out of Donna and return whatever she gave to 10.5, fixing her and making him a bony hand again. They could put the Doctor on trial for his crimes. Give him a happy life as a punishment/reward for his breaking the law. Wilf could plead for clemency in a trial. Bad Wolf Rose could come into play at any time...since she saw all of time and space...and it could be that Dalek Caan saw her when he too saw all of time and space. But I think, if we are saving the Time Lords...it's spectacle and wooly thinking after Christmas. It's the last ten minutes we all dread where magic reigns in RTD-World, but it's been expanded to a full hour. Still, I am hopeful, because even if we go with something completely balmy to create a reset...maybe it will be effective and uplifting...which is of the good.
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(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-01 02:45 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-01 02:47 am (UTC)which....
Date: 2009-08-01 02:49 am (UTC)Well...they do say that 10.5...
Date: 2009-08-01 02:53 am (UTC)I really want everything to be connected...Bad Wolf Rose...Dalek Caan...the Doctor/Donna and the Ood...not slapped together...but meaningful...and certainly...you could still do that and save Gallifrey. Bad Wolf Rose could come into it at any time...since she was everywhere in time and space.
Rae
Re: Well...they do say that 10.5...
Date: 2009-08-01 02:56 am (UTC)tl;dr
Date: 2009-08-01 05:17 am (UTC)It doesn’t have to be either-or, though. Or, at least, it didn’t before “Journey’s End.”
I’ve always known the Time Lords were coming back. What I hoped was that they’d come back as refugees (i.e., that Gallifrey would stay gone). And I wanted it to be Rose, not the Doctor, who brought them back.
I think one of the Doctor’s problems in the new series is that he’s trying to do too much. He’s the last of the Time Lords, so he thinks he has to do everything the Time Lords used to do. And he can’t. It’s as impossible as… well, flying a Tardis by yourself. I’m afraid that if he brings back the Time Lords—worse, if he brings back Gallifrey, exactly the way it was before the War—he’ll dump everything he’s been trying to do back in their laps and run away (the way I’m told he did in the original series).
But if Rose went to Gallifrey, I don’t think she’d be able to save the whole planet. (She’s good, but she’s not that good.) But she might be able to organize an evacuation. And then, when the Doctor did what we both think he needs to do—when he went back to Pete’s World—he’d find both of his families waiting for him.
But the other Time Lords would be just as homeless as he is. They’d need his help as much as he needed theirs. So he couldn’t just run away. He’d have to stay and help them rebuild.
That’s what I was hoping for before “Journey’s End,” anyway.
Yes...I had hoped that Bad Wolf Rose
Date: 2009-08-01 05:29 am (UTC)You put your finger right on the exact nub of the problem with bringing back Gallifrey as an end game. It just lets the Doctor run away from this challenge. Even if we do what I think is likely at this point...and have a grand sacrifice from the Doctor to bring them back...then we still are losing so much opportunity for growth. I mean...he HAS help...he's always had it...it's the humans!
But, I have to be honest with myself here...killing Ten while breaking the time lock and bringing back Gallifrey may well be all that RTD thinks he needs to do. He could figure...if the Doctor dies saving Gallifrey...all is set right. And then Moffat could deal with the power struggle that follows.
I am pretty sure we won't get a stay and help them rebuild scenario...but we might get a more active meddling scenario from Time Lords in the Moffat era. The reason the Doctor runs away...is that staying is boring. His psychological issues aside, I mean. Rebuilding wouldn't work for long. But...you could do a loose season arc around the Time Lords trying to re-establish their power. The Doctor then becomes a sort of pawn in a larger game...and the fun for Moffat and Matt is the resistance to authority.
Rae
who is a big fan of Time Lords changing, too...and thinks they should definitely come back...but not just at this moment when there is so much more they can do with a Doctor who is growing even closer to humans than ever.
Re: Yes...I had hoped that Bad Wolf Rose
Date: 2009-08-01 03:18 pm (UTC)If I were going to use Jack for anything, I think it would be helping the Doctor get back to Pete’s World. After all, the energy Rose put into Jack is the same energy that the Tardis uses for fuel. And the reason the Doctor can’t hop between realities is that that energy doesn’t exist in the Void or Pete’s World. That’s what he told Mickey in “Rise of the Cybermen”: “The TARDIS draws its power off the universe, but it’s the wrong universe. It’s like diesel in a petrol engine.” That’s why he gave away ten years of his life to recharge one of the Tardis’s power cells. What he doesn’t seem to realize is that Rose left him an emergency gas can for just such an occasion.
But if Jack isn’t going to be a part of the story RTD is telling, then I guess I’ll be staying in my AU, where there’s a reason for everything Jack has gone through since “The Parting of the Ways.”
But, I have to be honest with myself here… killing Ten while breaking the time lock and bringing back Gallifrey may well be all that RTD thinks he needs to do.
You’re probably right. Just like he probably thinks the Doctor having Christmas dinner with what’s-his-name in “The Next Doctor” was just as good as him having Christmas dinner with Jackie and Mickey in “The Christmas Invasion.” I disagree, but I’m not the one telling the story.
The reason the Doctor runs away… is that staying is boring. His psychological issues aside, I mean. Rebuilding wouldn’t work for long.
Well, it could happen off-screen, just like him spending a lifetime with Rose could happen off-screen. (In fact, he could do both at the same time.) But one of the themes of the series has been that the Doctor needs to learn to see things through. If he’d stayed on Satellite Five a little bit longer after he and Rose defeated the Jagrafess, “Bad Wolf” and “The Parting of the Ways” might not have happened. If he’d stayed on Earth a little longer after he brought down Harriet Jones’s government, “The Sound of Drums” and “Last of the Time Lords” might not have happened. I think we need to see him choose to stay and see something through, even if we fast-forward past the boring parts.
But I think you’re right that it’s not going to happen. It’s not so much that RTD isn’t telling the story I thought he was as that he’s not really telling a story at all. He’s like Jackson Pollock throwing paint on canvas instead of painting.
BTW...I would think...
Date: 2009-08-01 05:43 am (UTC)Another interesting idea...but probably not the right one...would be to have the chance to have Gallifrey back at the EXPENSE of Planet Earth. In other words...exchange them...via a rift or something. Would the Doctor be willing to sacrifice the Earth...to have his people back?
This would also be a spectacular story...hopeless and alone...unable to accept help from his human friends...nor take the comfort they offer him...the Doctor joins forces with the Master to bring Gallifrey back...only to learn that the cost is too high. He sacrifices himself...and his hope of any "normal future" for his adopted world. Thereby affirming that people really ARE important to him. As he is dying...Bad Wolf Rose arrives...and transports him into the body of 10.5...who was just dying there on the beach. Or...maybe Donna can do that...if the walls of the universe are down for a second...who knows. Anyway...he should be allowed to go to Rose. I will not waiver from that idea.
Rae
who is very stubborn about giving her Ten his happy.
Re: BTW...I would think...
Date: 2009-08-01 03:45 pm (UTC)Well, didn’t the Daleks call both of them “the abomination”? I wonder if that means anything.
As he is dying… Bad Wolf Rose arrives… and transports him into the body of 10.5.
I think the biggest problem I have with the idea of transferring Ten’s soul into Ten II’s body is that I literally can’t picture it. RTD put two David Tennants in the same scene, and a lot of people automatically accepted that there were two Doctors. And look at all the people who assume that Ten II survived “Journey’s End.” I’ve scoured the episode transcript, and I can’t find anything that supports the idea that he’s more of a Time Lord, physically, than Donna was. But he looks like the Doctor, so people assume that he must be close enough. I can’t think of any way that RTD could show that Ten II had turned into Ten. (Plus, a lot of people think that Ten II already has Ten’s soul. I can’t think of any way that RTD could show them that something had changed.)
Besides, I don’t want Rose or Donna or Ten II or the other Time Lords sending the Doctor to Rose. I want him to choose to go. If the end of his story (or this chapter of his story) is something that happens to him, instead of something he does, he’s less of a hero, isn’t he? Heroes act.
Allow me to 'splain. :grin:
Date: 2009-08-01 05:45 pm (UTC)All he has to do is tell the Master's story. Tell the story of how we burned ONE Master...and we have another...and how THAT happened. Then, we present the device to the Doctor...ala...the pocket watch from Human Nature for example...that allowed the Doctor to store his consciousness in a vessel...and that basically allowed a human Doctor to become a Time Lord Doctor when opened.
Ask yourself this...having had that Human Nature episode...what happens if Ten puts his self into a watch...and Ten 2 opens it? It seems to me all you really need to do is tinker with the fob watch settings a little bit...something the Master...who had a watch of his very own...could well have thought of all ready.
Rae
who thinks the Doctor does need to make this choice...and hopes that is what all of the dreams and doom and clinging are about...but...again...RTD likes heroic sacrifice an awful lot.
“it would take a miracle”
Date: 2009-08-01 07:28 pm (UTC)That… might work. And I can see how it fits in with the Master’s return. (I’m not sure I would have brought the Master back, personally. I saw him as a sort of false spring, when the weather turns warm for a few days before winter is really over. But clearly I was wrong.)
Rae, who thinks the Doctor does need to make this choice… and hopes that is what all of the dreams and doom and clinging are about… but… again… RTD likes heroic sacrifice an awful lot.
The non-negotiables, for me, are:
1. The Doctor has to choose “the slow path.” (Everything after that can happen off-screen, but he has to make that choice.)
2. There has to be a reason why Jack is immortal. (That might have been negotiable before the “Children of Earth” mini-series. It’s not anymore.)
3. Rose has to be more than a love interest or a plot device. (She still doesn’t know that she made Jack immortal, so I see her role in that story as a plot device.)
And since I might get all of those and still not be able to ship Ten/Rose (because, after “Journey’s End,” I can’t stand the sight of David Tennant’s Doctor), one of the non-negotiables might be:
4. The Doctor has to regenerate. (And I think an Eleven/Rose reunion would fit right in with RTD’s love of heroic sacrifice and bittersweet endings. But it probably hasn’t even occurred to him.)
Shaela
who still wishes she could come back to RTD’d universe… but without those three or four things, I don’t think I can.
Bringing the Master back
Date: 2009-08-02 03:47 am (UTC)In The Keeper of Trakken...a completely burned to a crisp 13 regenerations used up...Master...uses an alien device to transfer HIS consciousness into another person's body. So...we know Time Lords can do this...because the Master did it. He does a similar thing in the Doctor Who Movie...but there...the transfer is unstable and the human host burns up...ala what we are told might happen to Donna.
But...in The Five Doctors...the non-Gallifreyan now...because he's possessing a humanoid body...Master...is told that he can have an entirely NEW set of regenerations...from the Time Lords. Also, the Valeyard...asks the Time Lords if he can have the Doctor's remaining regenerations...so...they can be gifted...and transfered from one being to another. We know this from Old School canon.
What we find happening in New School...is the Master has been brought back from the dead...somehow...and restored a new set of regenerations. How did the Time Lords do that? We still don't know. BUT...it is possible that they went back in time and took a bit of his burned to a crisp body...and metacrisised it up into a new him.
The MASTER...having been through all this...would know what was required to do it. The Doctor...could also know...just because he's a Time Lord.
We also have the Instantaneous Biological Metacrisis...which created 10.5...from the hand, some regenerative energy given away...and something from Donna.
If we have the Master back...it seems logical to me...that he is using the same method that restored him to life...before...and that method...might be akin to Metacrisis.
So...by bringing him back...we get to explain all this...the process...by which we swap Doctor's. We also get to address your issues about the Doctor admitting he's wrong...because the Master will once again want Gallifrey restored. The Doctor will definitely be tempted...but...I hope...he remains strong and overcomes that temptation. That he basically finds peace with being the last of his kind...and is able to find joy again in helping people grow toward their potential. Which is really what the show was always about...it wasn't ever about the Time Lords. They were only there to muck things up now and then.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-01 09:51 am (UTC)I'm thinking, at the moment, that there are just a few survivors of Gallifrey, akin to Vulcan being destroyed in the new Star Trek movie. Maybe the Time Lords have hidden themselves from the Doctor as a punishment for destroying Gallifrey. But now they think he's suffered enough and are prepared to forgive him... so he can stop saying sorry so much! Or they could be hidden in a pocket of time akin to the Medusa Cascade where they can't be detected, building a new Gallifrey. Whatever is supposed to happen on Mars... doesn't... which is why the Earth is ending and the Universe unravelling, breaking open all these pockets and walls between parallels.
We can amuse ourselves that if the Time Lords come back, the Doctor will remember why he travelled to get away from them! As with Jackie, she spoke much better of her late husband to Rose than perhaps he deserved. The Doctor probably thinks much higher of his people in their absence than in their continued return. And I wonder... if Wilf is important in this regard. Wilf is an old human but constantly interfering, while the Time Lords are old and distant. I'd like to think the Doctor would choose humans over his people. Time Lords would always be there but human mortality is what makes them so fascinating to the Doctor... fascinating to the point he'd like to be one, only this time remembering who he is.
Lisa
Wondering if the Time Lords reveal themselves because the Doctor changed the 'fixed' Mars events in order to stay as Ten
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-01 12:12 pm (UTC)I do think that, yes. The audience has romanticized the Time Lords in their absence and he would quickly remember why he dislikes them so much. Also, the return takes away most of what is so important about his being the last of his kind...that one day his kind will be replace by a new type of Time Agent.
Rae
Alternatively...this...
Date: 2009-08-02 04:57 am (UTC)...could start everything unraveling. If it is a prison universe...it falls apart at the seams...or the Doctor realizes what it is. Or...it could be that whatever Dalek Caan did in the Time War started some sort of cascade that there is no way to repair...ala The Medusa Cascade. A cascade event is actually a thing...but it might not be what RTD had in mind.
My feeling is that we have the equivalent now of 4 or 5 Time Lords wandering about...we have 10.5, The Master 2.0, the Doctor, Jack and Jenny...maybe even Rose, striding from parallel to parallel (or her Bad Wolf Self...which could easily have arranged to appear at another point in time while it was doing all of that "I scatter the words" stuff).
With all of that mucking about in space/time...it would be surprising to me if we don't have some sort of wonkiness that might be more than one lone Time Lord can manage. And...the rift...is no longer monitored by Torchwood. And, I imagine a lot of what the Master wants...depends on how he is restored to us. There is a chance that whatever process he's gone through...has changed him.
I am particularly interested in the Ood...because that could well be some sort of astral projection of an Ood...like the Doctor appearing to Rose on Bad Wolf Bay. And the Ood...are very psychic...so they might be aware of something about the universe...or about someone calling out to the Doctor...that he isn't aware of on a conscious level. Blue could communicate this way, I think. So could the Master or the Time Lords.
Rae