Pony Pep Talk Needed...ARRGGH!
Jun. 27th, 2009 08:20 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rabid1stI have had a premonition of a pony-free Christmas as RTD and company start giving interviews about The Next Doctor all over the interwebs.
It took hold of me for no good reason. I have no additional spoiler news or anything, so don't fret over that. Suddenly, I just saw RTD talking up something that was completely ordinary (The Next Doctor) and I thought...he's not going to come through for us. He just doesn't get it. Though he did say he's getting better at hiding information from the press and fans.
I think this sudden loss of faith comes from the confidence they are showing going to Comic Con. They have what they think is an epic finale in the bag and they are ready to face questions from the audience with no fear of influence, no possiblity of second guessing themselves. I have to wonder what sort of reception they are going to get from the fans. Obviously, there is a lot of ill will about Donna, but most of the Rose-lovers seem to have given up the ship. I don't know...maybe this has all just gone on too long for me to keep being optimistic.
Someone give me a pep talk.
Depressing Pessimists are NOT welcome!
:grin:
It took hold of me for no good reason. I have no additional spoiler news or anything, so don't fret over that. Suddenly, I just saw RTD talking up something that was completely ordinary (The Next Doctor) and I thought...he's not going to come through for us. He just doesn't get it. Though he did say he's getting better at hiding information from the press and fans.
I think this sudden loss of faith comes from the confidence they are showing going to Comic Con. They have what they think is an epic finale in the bag and they are ready to face questions from the audience with no fear of influence, no possiblity of second guessing themselves. I have to wonder what sort of reception they are going to get from the fans. Obviously, there is a lot of ill will about Donna, but most of the Rose-lovers seem to have given up the ship. I don't know...maybe this has all just gone on too long for me to keep being optimistic.
Someone give me a pep talk.
Depressing Pessimists are NOT welcome!
:grin:
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2009-06-28 03:43 am (UTC)Not sure if that qualifies as a pep talk but I'll use my special Pony Inspired icon in case it needed more pep. :)
I have actually come around a bit
Date: 2009-06-28 04:09 am (UTC)RTD gave an interview and, not surprisingly, he knows what needs to be established in these last few episodes. He mentions the Doctor can't be alone...and there is a good reason. This actually fits in with what Rose has been saying all along about Ten...that he can't be alone. She doesn't actually EVER say she wants babies or a happy life...she says, "He does it all alone...but no more...because now he has me." And if we allow that the cut scene with the piece of TARDIS coral could be canon...then Rose is right there on topic again...pointing out that the Doctor can't be alone and being assured by Donna that he no longer WILL be alone. So...Rose only turns to 10.5 after she is told she's not needed by Ten...and that's completely untrue.
So...here's the thing...the Doctor shouldn't be alone. I believe he will come to realize that. Now, the only question I have is will he make the further decision to really embrace his love of humans and go to Rose? Will he admit that he belongs with US and never belonged with his own people on Gallifrey?
I really want him to say he loves Rose...as a sort of coming out of the closet. This is the woman I love! You know? That would be so specatular.
Rae
I figured you might
Date: 2009-06-28 04:16 am (UTC)I really want him to say he loves Rose...as a sort of coming out of the closet. This is the woman I love! You know? That would be so specatular.
I think my shipper heart would explode.
Way back when...like in S3
Date: 2009-06-28 04:28 am (UTC)And I could see that sort of scenario playing out where he embraces his "Children of Time" as the biggest family in the universe, as Sarah Jane calls it. He could say something like..."This is my family. This is Sarah Jane Smith, the best of companions, and her son, Luke. This is Jack, my timeless brother and Donna who is closer than a sister to me. This is my daughter Jenny and her family. This is Donna's grandfather Wilf and her mother Sylvia. They helped me save this planet. And this, this...is Rose Tyler...the woman who saved me, the woman I love. These are my people."
Rae
Well when you put it that way...
Date: 2009-06-28 04:37 am (UTC)This *points for emphasis* needs to be immortalized somewhere. If not in cannon then in fannon fic form.
See, here's my thing. Its so simple to see who Rose is to the Doctor and why in every way the story leads to the conclusion she is the one being in all of time and space that the Doctor needs to be with and for Russell to bring the story to this point, to establish in every way just how important Rose is to the completion of the Doctor, how can he live with himself if he isn't true to his own creation? To be so bold and essentially fearless in expressing this story only to turn around and shy away from its ending is not a reflection of the people associated with the show I've come to admire. The truth is in the story as its told, not in what previous incarnations have done or what a network suggests.
AMEN! YES!
Date: 2009-06-28 04:43 am (UTC)I expect RTD to do better. I expect him to be kidding frankly...misdirecting us with all of this angst...leading us down the path of hopelessness. Because that's what truly died in the end...HOPE! The Doctor is no longer the hopeful, happy space wander he once was. And I don't think he can just regenerate out of that mindset. He needs to embrace his love, his need of humanity...and with that...his love of Rose Tyler. In the end...it changes nothing about the lonliness of the character...Rose will still die and he will go on and he will have been married and had a family and watched them perish (though of old age rather than trauma). The only difference between the helpless coward we have now and a Doctor who has lived with and loved Rose...is that the latter Doctor is a person who truly believes in the "live life to the fullest" creed he's been preaching all these years.
Rae
happy you liked my scene...let's let RTD do it. :grin:
EXACTLY!
Date: 2009-06-28 04:53 am (UTC)How are we supposed to care or even want to know who this Doctor is if he cannot even live up to his own principles? If he fails to seize living life to the fullest and truly embracing what he stands for he is a hypocrite, not a martyr. A martyr is someone who sacrifices themselves to their cause because they have no other choice other then to deny their ideals. The Doctor is not sacrificing himself to his cause if he must deny his own principles to do so.
That is why angsty, emorific Ten of late is so frakking annoying. Why should I care about his pain when he inflicted it upon himself while contradicting everything he stands for. He loves humans for their ingenuity, capacity for good and ability to hope. All of these things involve the capacity for choice. In JE's end he took away Donna's choice to remain special and die because he couldn't let her die. On the surface its selfless but in the end its selfish because he made her choice for her. He couldn't let her die. He took away Rose's choice (that she fought so hard for) on the beach in Bad Wolf Bay. He left her there because he thought it was best. Again apparently selfless but truly selfish because he took away her choice. He proclaims to love humanity but the humans he loves the most he violates his own principles with in the end? Not acceptable and not true to the Doctor RTD created for us.
And, you know, you are right...
Date: 2009-06-28 04:49 am (UTC)The Doctor wants that life. He laments it. And he's still lamenting the loss of Rose during those spoiler shots we have...going back to see her before they met, as he's sick and staggering? I mean...it positively reeks of..."One last look at my beloved before I die! Even if she doesn't know me. Even if I can't hold her. Just let me see her one last time."
How can you write that...and not save the day for your lovers?
Rae
He so wants that life
Date: 2009-06-28 05:00 am (UTC)And again...we have a mutual admiration...
Date: 2009-06-28 05:08 am (UTC)But, yes, the Doctor gives everyone what HE wants...a normal life. But it isn't the choice THEY would make for themselves. Rose makes her choice...several times over...she wants to be with him. Donna makes her choice, as well, she goes with the Doctor knowing she could die after the events of the Sontaran Strategem. I mean...there she is...saying it..."I don't want to die" and the Doctor talks her into doing the right thing...she later talks to her grandfather and he's in tears...but he urges her to go with the Doctor and live the life she wants however long she has with him. At the time, I thought Donna was dying...and they were discussing it...in retrospect...I believe they were discussing the possiblity of her dying.
Later, Donna clearly decides to die in Turn Left...so that the world can be set right and she can live the life she was meant to live. So, we KNOW for sure Donna wants this life with the Doctor...and yet...he takes it from her to keep her safe. And we know that 10.5 considers himself "The Doctor" and is angry at the highhanded way that Ten is treating him. His "You made me." is a direct challenge...and he has to be prompted to tell Rose how this is all..."a gift." But most of all...what strikes me about him is his telling Rose he could spend his life with her, "If you want." There is NO WAY Ten put it like that.
Rae
Because he's not Ten
Date: 2009-06-28 05:19 am (UTC)I'm not entirely convinced that...
Date: 2009-06-28 05:39 am (UTC)I mean...if he knows what he meant to say...and HER Doctor is being so very cruel to her...totally discounting how he told her he would never leave her behind...and also totally discounting all she's done to return to him...I mean...WE saw that she's been through hell to reach him...she watches him die in Turn Left and she's running to him and then later when she begs him not to die in JE...I mean...IT'S THE SAME EPISODE! Obviously, Rose is not going to accept a substitute Doctor. And yes, the canon of the episode denies that 10.2 is the "same man" as Ten.
Yes, I must go with RTD postponing the pony...it's the only explanation for having JE have so many inconsistencies in it. And the truly amazing thing is so many fans don't even care that the characters are completely out of character. They are too busy telling themselves that the Doctor and Rose could never be together...or shouldn't be together...or even asking why Rose just won't go away...that they completely miss the Rose/Doctor love has been consistent through 4 years and is probably STILL consistent.
But, yes, 10.2 certainly seems angry and willing to lash out to me. He's scowling a lot in response to Ten's "plan for Rose." And he never really comforts Rose, either. People put a lot of stock in that final handhold...but Rose is scowling and shifts her hips away from him. It just doesn't work as a happy together ending.
Rae
Really I feel
Date: 2009-06-28 05:53 am (UTC)Thank you for being a sane fan and openly pointing out how cruel Ten is being on the beach to Rose. Its just awful to see him tearing her apart like that. Especially after all she'd suffered. I have to question what would he have done if 10.2 died or didn't exist and really from the way Ten acted and treated Rose I believe he still would have tried to leave her on that beach with her mother. The only difference would have been Rose never would have let him. 10.2 probably did whisper the end of the sentence in Rose's ear but the point is, it was Ten who was going to utter those words and Donna could have given Rose the same answer just as easily because everyone, including Rose knows it to be the truth. The only difference was it was a man who looked like her Doctor in every way saying the words she wanted to hear while her Doctor, the man she'd been fighting to get to for three years was treating her with cruelty and callousness. Its understandable for her to kiss 10.2 to find out if he really was her Doctor and the other the doppelganger.
And yet, I can't condemn Ten
Date: 2009-06-28 06:15 am (UTC)Would Rose have let him take Donna's memories? I don't think so. Would 10.2 have let him? Probably not! It seems to me that Ten was reeling from what happens with Davros and he completely rejects that part of himself that needs other people...and uses them to his own ends. It is very cruel what he does to Rose...but I don't think he meant to be cruel to her...I think he hoped she would save him from himself. The paradox of that view is that later in The Next Doctor...he behaves as if he really wanted Rose to remain loyal to him. Though he does say, people leave him, "because they should."
But...still...Rose didn't leave him. And I do think...she might need to make it crystal clear to him that she accepts no substitutes. Because that's really his last hope...he's tried giving her the normal life with Mom...then Mom and Dad and Mickey...now with someone who is very like him...the alternative universe Doctor, if you will. If she rejects 10.2...she pretty much is going to reject anyone.
Rae
Oh I don't condemn him
Date: 2009-06-28 06:25 am (UTC)So basically I'm irked and outraged over Ten's treatment of Rose but I have complete faith in their ability to work it out together because once they're together the story tells itself. All Russell needs to do is get them together again and then get out of the way of the story.
Right...there you go...there's the thing...
Date: 2009-06-28 06:31 am (UTC)He says in his book...when he admits that there is no way that Rose walks out of the TARDIS onto that beach...let alone goes along with any of this...he says, "There's no way to resolve this without a huge rewrite...and it dissolves into this big argument."
And he's right. Rose won't leave and the Doctor really can't convince her to leave.
And you know what is hopeful about the recent RTD interview? He mentions that Moffat has involved him by checking a few things with him. That seems to imply that there is something that needs checking about what the Doctor is doing at some points. I really hope that he's in Pete's World with Rose and RTD has plans for him there. Hence the checking.
And also...you are right about 10.2 and Donna. I feel he can save her...and she is the natural person to help him. They can be temps together...watching over the universe until Ten gets back from his life with Rose.
Rae
Big arguments are
Date: 2009-06-28 06:46 am (UTC)The argument isn't something to be scared of and Russell needs to give himself enough credit to recognize he is capable of writing "the big argument" i.e. admittance of love and just do it. David and Billie are amazing enough to do what is written justice, just give them the chance to show everyone how this love story is supposed to conclude.
Donna and 10.2 would be quite capable of handling the universe while the Doctor is with Rose but really I feel the Doctor and Rose's place is together, in the TARDIS, living a life of grand adventures.
And, of course, that scenario...
Date: 2009-06-28 07:55 am (UTC)I just can't help thinking about 10.2 and Rose on that beach getting some inkling of what is about to happen to 10 and Donna...and just deciding THEY need to fix things. Rose could be all..."See here, Mister" toward the Doctor...while 10.2 is there for Donna.
There are so many ways to fix what has gone wrong that it simply defies reason to imagine RTD would leave it as is...and yet still have all the players returning to the stage again.
So...PONY! Dangnabit...Pony, I say!
Rae
Its simple to me because
Date: 2009-06-28 07:31 pm (UTC)The players are coming back to the stage. I fail to see how it could possibly just be to reaffirm what RTD has admitted is a mistake.
At the risk of repeating myself...EXACTLY!
Date: 2009-06-29 01:44 am (UTC)I mean...he never was able to stop Rose from doing whatever she wanted to do. Look at him in Doomsday...or Age of Steel...he's bowled right over. Now, 10.2 may not have the love...but could have a bit of the inability to stop Rose which seems to be common to a lot of people...Mickey, her mum, Jack, Pete...various enemies. Rose is rather unstoppable. And, yes, I don't see her giving up on her Doctor.
So...yes, RTD is going to fix things. And he can...very easily...your way is the switch Doctor's way...which is also very plausible and canon-friendly...we just say that 10.2 is the one who should be traveling...and 10 is the one in need of a good long rest...and switch them with the fob watch or some other handy device.
Rae
HEY! Is that a Roswell icon?
Date: 2009-07-03 05:54 am (UTC)Also, I wanted to address something you said about Donna being the one to fix 10.2 and something I said about Ten taking away everyone's choices. It occurs to me that Wilf is exactly the right person to set Ten straight on a number of issues...because, as Wilf says in the end, "But she was better with you."
Wilf knows Donna. He knows, I think, that Donna was willing to die to have that life traveling and really living. And he knows Rose. He saw Rose when she was desperate to see Ten, too. I remember him calling her "sweetheart." And I wonder if he knows what happened to Rose. Donna couldn't tell him...and the Doctor wouldn't. I wonder if Wilf thought maybe Rose died trying to save the Doctor...he seemed to believe the Doctor was going to go on alone, there at the end.
Rae
Why yes it is
Date: 2009-07-03 06:07 am (UTC)I think you're right about Wilf. He knows Donna better then anyone really and I know he knows if it was left up to her she would have remained special and die and I think that's sort of why he told the Doctor thank you for bringing her back. I like that Wilf knew Rose and I would hope since Donna is not available that if given the opportunity he would call Ten on leaving her, something along the lines of "I thought you lost her but you're telling me after everything she went through you left her?"
There is some spoiler talk...
Date: 2009-07-03 02:36 pm (UTC)There...hopefully...that's enough room for people to avoid this bit...
SPOILERS
I've heard that WIlf has a lady friend with alzheimers in this one. Which means that Wilf will not only have lost at love before...but also that he stands to lose again...as his lady friend goes senile and dies. And so...Wilf would be the perfect person to call the Doctor a coward for running from that with Rose. I mean, I've heard a few of these long lived folks...vampires mostly...suggesting that it will be torture for them to watch their loved ones suffer and die...so they just run away. Well...excuse me...but plenty of people have had to watch their loved ones suffer and die...and we would consider it despicable for a person to abandoned their spouse of lover just because that person got a wasting illness.
Why is it any LESS cowardly and despicable of the Doctor to say..."I can't face watching you die...so here's somebody who won't have to suffer like I will...hope you enjoy him."?
Rae
really wanting Wilf to get how cowardly the Doctor has been and let him have it.
I've been so good about spoilers
Date: 2009-07-04 05:52 am (UTC)Translation, Wilf needs to slap a b*tch.
I don't go looking for spoilers...
Date: 2009-07-04 06:44 am (UTC)I think...that is...I hope...that the fansites are being led around like prize ponies...and that we few are correct about what is going to happen. But, lots of people suspect we are completely wrong.
I do hope Wilf does b*tch slap the Doctor.
Rae
I mean...look at this way...nothing keeps them apart
Date: 2009-06-28 06:25 am (UTC)...and all three times he was ecstatic when she returned to him.
1) In Parting of the Ways...he basically does exactly what he did to Sarah Jane Smith. He loves Rose...but he can't let it develop into more...so he wishes her a happy life and sends her home. But, when she returns he's swept away by his love of her and kisses her and gives up his life to save her.
2) He arranges for her to have her entire family on Pete's World...pushes for Jackie and Pete to come to love again...and slips that disc over Rose's head. When she pops back to him, he appears angry but only for a few minutes. Later he is devastated at losing her.
3) He tells her to live out a happy life in Pete's World. Tells her she is trapped there and that both universe's will collapse if she tries to get back to him. He warns her quite sternly not to try. And yet, when she does return, he runs to her, defies regeneration for her, clasps her in his arms and seems completely delighted that she was building a dimension cannon to return to him...even though that would clearly have destroyed both universes if it had worked. Also, during that episode, he clearly is frantic to find Rose, see her again, even though he's told Donna her return means the universe is ending.
And that doesn't even touch on things like his belief in her when he's faced with certain repetitive death in the Satan Pit and there is no hope. "If I believe in one thing, just one, I believe in her."
And I don't know that he's stopped believing in her. Certainly, I will be deeply disappointed if Rose proves to be false in this final test. Though I know many of the fans are hoping she gives up on the Doctor and takes her shot with 10.2.
Rae
For those fans
Date: 2009-06-28 06:40 am (UTC)Rose comes back to the Doctor time and again and as a result there is no one in his life who could possibly mean as much or the same as Rose does to him and I know deep down he's hoping for her to return to him again but I feel he must accept how wrong it was for him to leave her and recognize his life looses its worth every time he does. Once he accepts this, then she can return to him one last time because he'll finally accept its not his place to choose what sacrifices she can and can't make.
Re: For those fans
Date: 2009-06-28 05:12 pm (UTC)Rose deserves to be happy away from this emo dude" but if that's the case she should be finding her own life and living it as she chooses, not fulfilling the mandate laid down by the Doctor.
I would think the LAST thing she would want is a reminder that she was the biggest fool in the universe just...hanging around in her life. I know...I know...that the 10.5/Rose lovers are all about him being the same man and Rose automatically loving him. But...wouldn't she EVER think about the man who left her...about this man being capable of such callous behavior...about HOW he is with her only because they were trapped together and HE really has nobody else?
I just don't see true love being sustainable under those circumstances. And I think those fans are simply going with the motivation of..."It's this way because it can't be any other way and so Rose will accept it...because that's how RTD wrote it." And this is the exact attitude RTD challenges in his book...when he points out that it is ONLY that way because he wrote it that way.
As a writer, I completely understand what he's saying. We can play God with our characters and make them do anything we want...but it isn't always what the CHARACTER would chose to do...and when we do that...when our plot demands that the characters behave in a way that is alien to them...we fail as writers. RTD says in his book...that the end of JE was a failure. And I think he means BEFORE he changed it, when it was still a passionate kiss on the beach and a happy Doctor.
I believe RTD was heading, all along, for the concept of WHY the companion is necessary. I believe he was heading there from the very first episode. Then, however, he fell in love with Rose...and so did his Doctor and RTD found he couldn't stop writing the Doctor in love (something else he says in his book). So, basically, I think RTD might have been heading toward the idea that the Doctor shouldn't be alone...but I hope NOW, he's come to understand that he also cannot separate him from Rose in this way.
Rae
I went on the journey
Date: 2009-06-28 07:48 pm (UTC)Re: I'm not entirely convinced that...
Date: 2009-06-28 01:25 pm (UTC)No, I want an Anthony and Cleopatra type love story where if they perish, they perish together, as it should be. Like all mythic lovers, the transcended the mundane to create their own world. That's why we watch them. It so rarely (if ever) happens in real life.
Here I go again with the "EXACTLY!"
Date: 2009-06-28 04:33 pm (UTC)They are, by the canon, "The stuff of legends." From that moment, in The Satan Pit, onward...Rose and the Doctor are a single unit and RTD never really loses that...even when Billie is off working on another network and it's been YEARS. And I know you and I had our reaction to Penny...but the thing is...even WITH Penny...Rose was going to come back...and Penny was going to lose. Sure...RTD tells Ben that he could work around Billie not being available...but did you notice that point where Ben asks why they can't just use Mickey without Rose?
Answering that question, RTD showed he knows just what WE know...that Rose would come back if she could...that nothing would keep her from the Doctor. And, yes, I suppose the proper tear-jerking ending is that they perish together...which could be what RTD was going for...if, indeed, he was going for something epic...there at the end of JE.
But, frankly, I feel that he knew what he was doing, that he must have known by the time of the wrap party because that's when he asked Catherine Tate to hold open time to shoot the Christmas episode. Also, he would have needed to secure Billie's cooperation very quickly if he meant to work around so much other stuff in her life...her new baby, ITV contracts, exhaustion...he took at least one of her precious weekends home to shoot what we've already seen.
And the scene seems rather important...would it be shot on a whim? I don't think so.
Oh, and yes, poor 10.5 is really treated like old shoes and I think that is telling about TEN...not that he is a dark hearted person but that he was forced to take a long, hard and critical look at himself by Davros...and then 10.5 appeared and it could all be dumped on him. Ten shows self loathing in most of the things he does. And I believe the reason is two fold...1) He took what Davros said to heart(s) and truly believes now that he's not good for people, that he makes them into weapons and killers and 2) He blames himself for what was happening to Donna...that he was killing her for his own happiness. Because whatever his plans were for the hand...if he hadn't loved Rose so much, wanted to stay with her...he would never have tossed the regeneration into the hand and set the whole metacrisis in motion.
So, really...maybe...10.5 is spot on when he says, "You made me." Maybe he's telling us WHY the Doctor is denying himself the one thing he wants in all the universe...Oh...I feel a ficlet coming on, yes? :grin:
Rae
Re: Here I go again with the "EXACTLY!"
Date: 2009-06-28 05:36 pm (UTC)Bring 'em back and he'll slip right back into being the rebel and needling them. (Oh, just think of DT playing that - the best thing about his Hamlet was that, despite being twice the age, he caught the obnoxious adolescent to a T. In the court scene he showed up barefoot, thrust himself at Ophelia and spoke filthily to her, and it was a brilliant moment!)
I've just spent a weekend in Stratford working on Antony and Cleopatra and I saw so many parallels between DW and that mythical love. Shakespeare took two mature, conflicted, complex and not always very nice individuals, and he honoured their choice to destroy themselves rather than compromise their integrity by denying what they had found in one another. In many ways, Anthony was similarly torn - he couldn't be a Roman as his society defined it while he was in Egypt, yet that was the only place he felt really alive. The difference was there was still a Rome around for him to reject. But imagine if a nuclear bomb had fallen on Italy and he was the only elite Roman left, the responsibility he'd feel to deny himself and represent his species. It all depends on whether we define ourselves by our genetic and cultural heritage, or through the relationships that we find most meaningful. Acknowledge those, and it can be that even at the moment of death we have never felt more alive.
The tragedy of Journeys End is that the Doctor doesn't just deny himself that release and integrity, which any individual has the right to do. He also denies it to the woman he loves.
Timothy Dalton could also be The Other
Date: 2009-06-29 01:53 am (UTC)Another possibility is that Dalton is playing a new version of the Valeyard.
I know...I know...I've gone to the Valeyard every season...but, dangnabit...it is the one really big question from Old School that RTD hasn't addressed and it is intimately tied in to the Doctor destroying Gallifrey. Also, it would underline the idea that the Doctor shouldn't be alone...and even underscore the use of the term "Naismith"...as in Not Smith...as in a Doctor gone bad. If the Doctor was sure that his enemy was the Master...then he learned that the Master was only a pawn in a hellish game that HE...the Doctor had set up...well...it might give us a grand enemy tie-in for S5, too.
Sadly, I am not a big fan of the revelation of your love in the moment of death scenario. Only because it, too, is over used. I do agree that there is something to be said for living that relatively short life with Rose...because it will be the same as loving for an hour...in our lifetime. But, I would rather see a hero who can embrace his desires than one who plays the martyr. I, also, feel that RTD sort of denies something very important in the gay community when he says the Doctor loves Rose but just can't be with her...because...he's a time lord and she's a human. That's very much like denying love...as you say.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-06-28 02:25 pm (UTC)What you guys said. My brain is too fried on educational psychology reading to contribute anything meaningful. Except...GO TEAM PONY!!!!1
LOL...That's Entertainment!
Date: 2009-06-28 04:40 pm (UTC)I mean, he took Donna onboard against his better judgement. And look what he did to her! And I'm not talking about stripping her mind in this case. I'm talking about him being responsible for all of the changes in her...and for acting selfishly and putting his love of Rose ahead of anything else.
As I just told Sensiblecat...I believe I have a ficlet vibe at long last...explaining what he did on the JE beach and why he did it, too. :grin:
Rae
(no subject)
My thoughts exactly! That was quite the discussion; thorough, well thought out and very extensive!
And I hope you're both right, that there really will be a pony at the end of this heart-wringing saga.
Look at your sad David icon
Date: 2009-07-03 06:00 am (UTC)Rae
happy you enjoyed our tennis match of pro-pony arguments.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-06-28 05:55 pm (UTC)Yep, as I was sort of saying above...
Date: 2009-06-29 01:59 am (UTC)I was very disappointed when Donna said she meant to stay with him forever, myself. I thought...what is WRONG with you people? And I really hope that once Donna is well...she rejects him out of hand...a sound slap would do him a world of good. Rose owes him one too but I would bet she is willing to forgive him if he asks her to.
But first, he needs to admit that he needs people...and Rose in particular...and maybe that IS what he's been denying since the beginning. But I won't be happy if it's just lip service...I want him to do his downtime next to Rose, to truly show he's willing to live the life and not run from it. Then...and only then...might I believe that River Song meant something to him.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-05 06:24 am (UTC)They have? Have they left fandom or gone over to different ships? Well, I know I haven't. I still love Doctor/Rose and I hope that RTD will give us a happy ending.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-05 07:39 am (UTC)But I suppose time will tell.
Rae
also hoping RTD gives us a proper ending...because it is so very easy to do.
I leave the island for nine days...
Date: 2009-07-09 04:26 pm (UTC)Fortunately, I've been surrounded by ponies throughout my holiday. The Shetland variety, well suited to the harsh climate and rough terrain. Really great hair, too.
Lisa
Aww! They loves one another!
Date: 2009-07-09 04:32 pm (UTC)Also, if you can find the strength to read all the comments, you will see my faith quickly returned. However, I did miss you during the crisis. :grin:
I have moved on to relating Jack's behavior to the Doctor's behavior and looking deep into RTD's creative soul...assuming he's wrong and he does have a soul, of course. :grin:
Rae