DW S4 Finale...Reaction Post

[rabid1st]

Talk about being careful what you wish for!

How about that?

Well, now...let's see...he poured the regenerative energy into the hand...and the hand grew into another Doctor.

And he ALSO gave the regenerative energy to Donna and she because the first Human Time Lord and for a brief, temporary, span of time...vital to every universe.

Creation stopped at her rather than revolved around her...but still.

Also, in the minor details department...Mickey saving Sarah Jane by popping in and the beach scene and kiss. The Doctor showed he loved all his companions and they were his family now. Sarah Jane even says so...but then she rushes off to her child...which left it feeling a bit hollow.

And, in fact, that is how this feels to me...hollow...meaningless, but epic, a rather weird mix.

Two Doctors...one to go with Rose and one to go on fighting...one human but not human. I remember arguing a few days ago, quite fiercely, that HAND Doctor would be the proper Doctor. He has all the Doctor's memories and he would even have Nine feelings. And there he is...on the beach...certainly aware of his love for Rose...of what he would have said.

So, why is this so unsatisfying?

Because, as I've said a few times...it's not really about Rose for me. People used to ask me if I would be happy if Rose found a human that was like the Doctor...looked like him and had his attitude. And I used to say NO! I wouldn't be happy if she loved THAT universe's Doctor. Because I loved OUR Doctor and wanted HIM to be happy.

Maybe it is about Rose for RTD though...so he's given her this better than original substitute. He will age. He will be able to live the human life with her. He is hurt and she can help him become a better man. But the very idea that he must BECOME that man...means he and Rose are starting over with love. Yes, this is the same deal that Pete and Jackie got. The same deal that Mickey's grandma got. But in all those cases...the REAL love was dead. And not satisfying too. And if I were Rose...I wouldn't be able to go be happy this time any more than any other time the Doctor told me to go live a new life. What does she care if he ages? What does she care if he looks and sounds and acts the same? He's not her Doctor.

Beyond that...really...this episode says she's not going to be happy with a substitute. Right at the beginning it says that. He seems to be the same man at the beginning when he fails to regenerate. He LOOKS the same...sounds the same...and IS the same...if he is ELEVEN. Rose knows all about regeneration...that he's the same man. But still...she asks him if it is REALLY him before she rushes forward to hug him. Now, he says the HAND is really him, too, in the end...and I know it is. But I can't escape the fact that the Rose breaks free of the kiss and runs toward the TARDIS as it departs. Nor, that she looks down at the hand clasp and then back up at this FauxTen and they do not melt together at all.

If they had turned away up the beach, if Jackie had come to embrace them both, if FauxTen had cuddled Rose close, if he'd kissed her, if the Doctor had been happier at the end...content that all was right with the world...if he'd been happy to leave Rose with his other self...I might have been okay with this. But that ending left me expecting Rose to pop back into the TARDIS and tell him, "Okay, that's not happening."

And for now...I am going with that worldview.

I think that is exactly what happens at Christmas time. I think the three episodes are a bridge to Moffat and probably Rose/Doctor kids. I think that aging thing might be what Moffat and the BBC are hanging their hat on...though I was disappointed in that because it was a reversal from RTD on LotTL. And it limits DT's lifespan as the Doctor. As you all know, I hate that sort of reversal on a reversal...messy writing. And it does make me think that this is the real ending and RTD doesn't think he can do any better.

But...I still think that Hand Doctor has more Donna in him than we know...and Rose doesn't love Donna. So, he can temp for the Doctor, yet. So, for now, let's go with this idea.

Ten goes to a Christmas episode...where things go bad again...as always and he's unhappy and alone...and then...when he comes back into the TARDIS...Rose pops in and says, "You want me to stay in another world with the human version of you and learn to love him, while you just go off all on your own and alone? Yeah, that's not going to happen. So, how about this...what do YOU want for Christmas?"

Then the Doctor can say what he really was going to say...which maybe wasn't I love you after all...because that is sort of predictable, isn't it. Maybe he was going to say..."Rose Tyler, I...want to spend forever with you, too." Then...he could kiss her. Which is what should have happened. If they wanted us to buy all this...FauxTen should have kissed Rose. We've seen other people kiss him...but so far...he's never kissed anyone (except maybe Astrid). And if Rose is "all he wants in the universe," he should kiss her.

And really...isn't Christmas the place where you get your happy ending? I would have left Rose on the beach alone...and weeping...for a bit this time. RTD leaves her with the one thing she needs to safely open the dimensional doorways...a Time Lord. Is Rose content? She didn't look content to me.



Rae

Comments

[gutterfl0wer.livejournal.com]

It did kind of feel like we were all getting fobbed off. The same with Rose's Dad Pete, he's Pete but he's not the same one she grew up with. It's like the Tyler family is getting totally fobbed off with fakes! I just hope that utter look of devastation on her face was from shock of the whole situation and that she does then go, realise that the Doctor she has is one and the same (except for the physical differences), learn to love him and live happily ever after. But I think we all know, as with all things Doctor Who, and because RTD seems to love making us suffer, it won't be that simple. :/

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...yeah...again...this isn't like Pete and Jackie. I mean it is...very like. As you say, the substitute idea is strong in this...Gran gets a substitute Ricky and Mickey still loves her until she dies. Pete and Jackie get substitutes, too.

Now Rose. So yes, we do have a strong stand that you can learn to love the person that is "not your wife."

But Pete and Jackie ran into one another's arms and were happy. Rose isn't happy at the end...and neither are either of the Doctors. This is why it bugs me so...Rose and Hand will have to learn to love one another...something that Joan refused in Human Nature. Joan refused to take the substitute of the Doctor for her John Smith.

But we are expected to believe that Rose will take the fake one...and learn to love him...because he IS her Doctor only human. I think that if they hadn't played the rest of the episode as they did...I would have been able to buy it better...if they hadn't shown for example...that hand holding scene in the Dalek chamber.

Look at how close she is to him...shoulder pressed into his. Look at the way he touches her, holds her close...his cheek in her hair, his arms around her. Then look at the FauxTen...he could easily have gathered her into his arms as the TARDIS left...but instead...they just look at one another.

Rae

[bananasandroses.livejournal.com]

Because I loved OUR Doctor and wanted HIM to be happy.

That’s how it’s always been for me, and it’s why yesterday hurt so much.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yeah, me too. I really cried over this one. Because Rose was his one chance to be happy...and now he seems to have lost that. I'm not saying he'd be happy forever...just for a vacation from his job...and that Temp Ten could have looked after the universe for a bit...and the Doctor could have faced his fears of withering Rose.

But it is possible we get a reversal at Christmas...the thing is...Christmas is done...those other episodes are not done. So it is possible that Christmas is still a coda to this story. I will not give up all hope until after Christmas.

Then, I will figure that we are going to get Rose/FauxTen kids or grandkids for him. Which will still be sad but palliative, I suppose. It really is going to ruin Doctor Who for me, though...the thought that he will never be happy...as long as the show runs. That doesn't make me want to watch the show. And no matter who protests it...Old School wasn't like that...because in Old School he was always rather happy...not always rather sad. And even getting the Time Lords back...won't fix the always sad part of him in my opinion. But maybe it would in RTD and SM's opinion.

Rae

[ladymalchav.livejournal.com]

YES!

What jumps out for me is, Rose never cared about growing old with the Doctor. She was fine with her own eventual death. It was the leaving the Doctor alone part she didn't like.

My favorite line in all of the D/R ship probably summs it up the best. In Fear Her, then the Doctor disappears, Rose isn't worried about what will happen to her, or even the Earth, but 'Who's gonna hold his hand, now?' For her, it was all about him, not being alone, not being sad, not being without her. And for him, it's all about her, having a wonderful life, being happy, being brilliant, being Rose. And THAT's what makes it such an awesome ship.

But, now, yeah, Rose has a Doctor, but the Doctor is all alone, and sad, and empty. How is that okay for Rose? How is that closure? Is she really going to be able to just go and live with this duplicate, knowing her Doctor is still out there without a hand to hold? I don't think so.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yeah...I just don't see it happening. Even with Pete and Jackie and Mickey taking substitutes...their REAL loves or grandmas were dead. The Doctor isn't dead...he's heartsick and alone. So this is just another shot at the happy life he's given her...with a man who might KNOW what he was going to say but doesn't know that YES...it really doesn't matter to her.

Her Doctor knew that...that it didn't matter...but then...it seems it did...because Rose kisses him so fiercely. I think though...that kiss was a sort of test. And FauxTen fails it...he doesn't look dazed or delighted...he doesn't lift her up and give back to her. He doesn't hold her...or comfort her at the end. He offers her his hand...which is quite symbolic in Doctor Who. But still...she should have leaned into him or something.

Rae

[salienne.livejournal.com]

See, I'm bugged more by the fact that the episode tells us the Doctor needs his friends, the Doctor tells us explicitly that he needs Rose... and he ends up alone and miserable on the TARDIS. Bleh.

Not to mention that he makes the choice for Rose and Donna AGAIN. *Major annoyance*

In terms of Rose and Alt!Ten, though: I think Alt!Ten is someone Rose could grow to love; she already does love him, in a way, and it won't be the same, and it'll be difficult, and dear God he's going to have major issues adjusting to a life with doors and carpets and nowhere to run, and she's going to need to grieve again...

But I did see some bonding between them. When everyone's around the console, Rose is as much in his personal space as she is in the original Doctor's. And on that beach, Rose didn't want to lose her Doctor, she refused to settle, but... she did kiss Alt!Ten, the only one willing to admit his feelings, in the end. And he kissed back. On the Confidential, you see more of that kiss and the way he wraps his arms around her, fully getting into it right away--something we never really saw before.

And he is the Doctor, just with some Nine and a dash of Donna thrown in. And he can give her everything that Ten, for whatever reason, can't. And at least Ten doesn't need to watch her die.

But, yeah, it does feel like more than a bit of a cheat to me, and I don't think Rose will ever fully get over it, but I think she and Alt!Ten will be fine. Not perfect, but I think they could very easily be happy.

The original Doctor on the other hand...

I've decided that the producers just don't want him to be happy. Ever. What with him giving up Rose and his family going off without him and Donna never even knowing who he was or who she could be--and both are "his fault", in that he brought Rose to that beach with his double and he took away Donna's memories.

Sigh. Martha and Jack need to call him up so they can all have a group hug.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

See? That's really more the thing than anything else. There is really no way for the Doctor to ever be happy...except we can reset and say that finding Jenny and having the Time Lord's back might make him happy some day. Or that having Rose and AltTen's kids visit and his family think of him might help.

If only he seemed happier about any of it. But to me...it seems like now we have this broken Doctor forever. And I don't really want to watch that show. I loved Old School Doctor because he was happy traveling and finding out stuff. New School Doctor just doesn't seem very happy doing that...and while I do think that Rose could certainly learn to love the Doctor...uhm...

...showing the real kiss in the confidentials doesn't change it not happening in canon. In canon...Rose breaks out of the kiss and is upset about the Doctor...and the Doctor is still unhappy. And we are back to River and her voiceover...and Elton and his...you can touch him for a moment but he goes on alone.

And okay...that's their version of this show...and it's not mine. Because really...I just think that is terribly depressing, to know he will never be happy...ever. Not even for a brief time.

Rae

[grbggrl.livejournal.com]

Because I loved OUR Doctor and wanted HIM to be happy.

Exactly. He's the one we watch and care for. It's him we want to see not alone anymore. To see get love. Rose was that person and so of course those feelings were tied into her...but it was about him really.

I wish I had your optimism about the specials...I really do. But honestly, I'm 100% positive that this is the last we will ever see of Rose Tyler.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yes...this is why I am so sad. I, too, think that really this is the producers idea of a happy ending. I think the most they will give the Doctor is a palliative of having Jenny back or a Rose/AltTen child or having the Time Lords back at the end of next year.

I don't think really have a lot of confidence in a reversal at Christmas...I'm just saying...that one is still possible. That all hope is not lost because they COULD have showed a better kiss...but didn't.

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

Bad writing. I've said it before. There was no resolution, just a cheap farwell. My boyfriend felt there was no reason for the Doctor to leave Rose. So do I.It was cheap and alot fans are angry. Don't be surprised if ratings crash for the Christmas thing.

Damn it! The Doctor even said "I'm fine" which Donna figured out means " I'm not okey." He watched Rose kiss the other Doctor. He loses Donna and don't think we'll see Sarah Jane in Who again. Jack has even moved on.WTF?
Rose still has that device that got her to the real world, but I don't think anything is to become of it.I think thats it for her. Yeah I've thought of Rusty popping some surprises and bringing her back and making things right.Switching Doctors. I don't know if that'll happen.

I'm so sick of sad stories. The fictional ones don't help either.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Don't be surprised if ratings crash for the Christmas thing.

Yep, even my kids groaned at the trailer and said, "Not the Cybermen again!"

Don't know if this will mean anything to non-Brits, but they did the same thing years ago with a lovely show called "Ballykissangel". They set up an impossible romance (Catholic priest in love) and then consummated it briefly just before killing off the heroine in a completely unconvincing twist. Then they redeemed themselves somewhat with a wake, but went on for two more increasingly silly and soapy seasons with the heart of the show ripped out.

I had the sense to stop watching at the right time, I hope I can do that now. If only they'd got the story right and then finished it. But no, there's too much big money involved.

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

Part of me feels like RTD wrote this thinking "how do I get those damn Rose fangirls to stop bugging me?" and not taking into consideration the fact that Rose (as he wrote her) is a Doctor fangirl and she wouldn't want him to be alone. Or the fact that Doctor (and Doctor/Rose - as opposed to Rose/Doctor -) fangirls weren't going to totally appreciate it either.

I would be very happy if we got some more acknowledgment/resolution at Christmas, but I'm a pessimist.

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

We should've seen it though. Moffat teased us about in SitL/FotD.He kept throwing around the word "spoilers".I had a feeling thats what he was teasing us about. I brushed it off though.

[pathnotfollowed.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean - I was kind of left feeling very weird, a little empty at the end. I was really happy in some ways, but kind of 'nah, that's not good enough' in other ways. I got the rose/ten snog that I wanted, but you're right - HE should have kissed HER, and I would have loved to have actually heard what he said to her. I know, we can guess and speculate but it's not the same - it didn't work for 'Lost in Translation' and I don't think it worked here. And you're right - they didn't 'melt' together - I totally get what you're saying there.

The other thing is that I want to SEE the happy ending - I want to see the doctor and rose being together - the joy of their relationship was seeing them bounce off of one another, grinning at each other and generally being quite cute lol, and for a short time we had that re-kindled in these last couple of episodes, but Roses run for the Tardis, and the Doctors empty eyes and lonely look suggests that they are both unhappy with the outcome, as you say.

Plus, the lack of anything/one popping up in the Tardis (as has been the case for the last 2 series - Donna and the Titanic) suggests that something is going to happen. He is SO alone, and I for one am completely unhappy about that because before, at the end of a series when he's all alone, something happens to distract him from his own thoughts but this time he is left, dwelling on his own heartache and loneliness.

Something just did not sit easy.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yes...I was discussing this with my other half. Who, I am not ashamed to admit, was holding me as I cried. And he said, "So, he didn't get that last piece right. Maybe that is the hardest piece for a writer to get right."

And I said, that yes it was the hardest piece and that's why I always start with that final keystone and then build my story around it and up to it. And I said, I thought RTD was doing the same thing...because I could see how his pieces fit together...and then...he mess it all up at the end...just leaves this gapping hole.

A hole which says...this isn't the end of this story.

See? It might have worked except for a brief span of time there...in this every episode...we see the Doctor happy again. And Rose...and they DO the right things...they lean into one another...he holds her when Jack dies...has his arms wrapped around her and his mouth at her ear. This is what the beach him could have done to make me feel better about it all. He could have gone to her and wrapped his arms around her...she could have leaned back into him.

And the pieces might have been made to fit...the Doctor could have left Wilf with a happier lift to his step...not in the rain...for gosh sake! Or...he could have lingered over Sarah Jane's comment that he DOES have family. He could have made that connection with Wilf...but he doesn't. And so...what we have here...is a Doctor that is dark and magnificent and alone forever.

And that's just not something I will go on watching.

Rae

[ke0001.livejournal.com]

I wish they had stopped Doctor/Rose at Doomsday. At least they chose each other; loved each other and we could hope for a reunion.

I'm SO tired of ending with a lonely Doctor. I just wanted some kind of happy ending.

I'll keep it with that because I've already typed too much writing my own review ( http://ke0001.livejournal.com/2716.html ).

K.

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

I agree with 99% of your thought here. Except that I do see a masterful purpose to what RTD did (although I did not see it until my second time through)

The Children of Time won the battle; the Daleks won the war.

And RTD gave Moffat a Doctor who will be casual with his Companions because his capacity for love is only rivalled by his capacity for self-flagellation, and he will not let himself be that open again. The person who was the most broken on that beach was Ten. I thought (hoped) the Ten (or Eleven) that Moffat would inherit would be healed. But the Emo!Ten he's inheriting is in worse shape than Nine. Ergo, RTD's canon pwns Moffat.

More of my thoughts here so I don't clog up your journal: http://wickedgillie.livejournal.com/217899.html

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yes...he does pwn. But Moffat is going to rewrite it so that River is the "true love" and really...it is that there is no true love...he is the Lonely God. And that's just not something I can commit to long term. It's not the same as Old School...where the Doctor was having a good time. I do, I suppose, want that Doctor back. I want him to be magnificent and eternal and not really able to have a complete happiness because he's the last of his kind.

But I don't want him to be eternally unhappy...which...as you note...he now is. Ten is the one who suffers on that beach...I do think Rose can be happy with AltTen...if she just lets go of Ten being all alone. But...I can't let go of that. And I really would rather she couldn't either.

Rae

I'm at a loss

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

I wrote a bit on this in my own review, but I'll elaborate in light of your review.

It feels like I'm left to make the best of a bad job, and just so I don't break my heart and weep for all I am worth, I've been trying to do so. I mean, I can see why this might be the best sort of Rose/Doctor ending we could be expected to get, and that the Beep thinks that it should be enough.

But then why the conflicted behaviour with Rose? Why doesn't she or Ten or Hand!Ten seem too happy with what is happening? If they had given us something more, as you say - a hug, a smile, a leaning that brought them closer together - I could buy this as the final solution.

But instead they chose to show Rose breaking the kiss and running for the TARDIS. Instead they decide to show the Proper!Doctor unhappy. Instead they show us Hand!Ten grim and taking Rose's hand as if he were Nine and it was Father's Day all over again. Even RTD shows us in the Confidential that he knows this isn't the 100% happy ending it could be.

So why pull so much back? Why not use the kiss where Hand!Ten is pulling Rose in tight against him, giving back like he has never done before? Because they sure as heck filmed that kind of kiss, but didn't use it. What gives?

I don't want to have to hope anymore. I want to withdraw into fanon where it can be made all better. But I can't help thinking that this really is a red herring yet again and that Rose is not through with the Doctor. And we have four specials to find out if that's true.

So... here's to hope.

Yeah...it doesn't look like the end to me

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And well...I said we should get the end at Christmas. That's what the song says..."I will lie with my lover next Christmas day." So...yes...why not have Rose happy here.

I can see that she might fall in love with AltTen...I am the one who argued that HANDTen is the same man as the other one...and so...of course...if we let Rose just give up...she can take this man and love him. And he needs her, too. But also...he's PART Donna...right...just physcially, I guess? He can still have the mind of a time lord and not burn up?

I too am tired of hoping...and waiting...and I don't know if I will bother with Christmas. The BBC got their 9.4 rating and I hope they are happy with it...people might tune in for Christmas...but I don't think many people are going to go on with hopeless Doctor. I don't think even giving him one of Rose/Alt's kids to travel with would help him feel better...really.

I just don't see anything ever helping him feel better again. But I figure they will bring the Time Lords back at the end...and that will be it.

Rae
also hoping that we can have our happy at Christmas.

[keswindhover.livejournal.com]

You're a big soppy romantic.

[starry-eyed.livejournal.com]

For me, personally, I would have been much more upset if she had just instantly connected to the Faux!Doctor. I mean, yes, it would have felt a bit more like a happy ending if she and fauxTen had ridden off into the sunset, but wouldn't it have been a bit shallow too? Remember the Christmas Invasion and trying to connect with Ten after just losing Nine? I think it was that sort of feeling. Like, yes, he IS the same... but to her right now he's not. I believe he'll have to prove himself to her just like Ten did. Just because they didn't show this doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

With that said, God do I ever love your idea for the Christmas special. :D

[roxyk630.livejournal.com]

I think the penultimate problem for me bears down to the one simple fact that you stated. For me... the show isn't about Rose... its about the Doctor... and I want HIM happy. I'm sure Rose can learn to love this Doctor... because in the end she DID learn to love Ten and she was already in love with nine. No choices, just life... and thats how this was a bit.

I was most upset with what happened to Donna and what happened to the Doctor in the long run. I loved it... but at the same time it felt a bit hollow.

[thisficklemob.livejournal.com]

I had two thoughts concerning the likelihood of this getting fixed at Christmas, one in the pro column of likelihood, one in the anti.

+ 10.2, on the beach, taking her hand, wasn't in love with her. Which is the main reason he doesn't seem right for her; it isn't like Farscape, where each of the two Johns was real and in love with Aeryn. It occurred to me, though, the way he looked at her and took her hand... perhaps not like a lover... but like a... co-conspirator?

After all, if anyone understands better than Rose what 10 is up to, emotionally, it would be 10.2. And he's already shown himself perfectly willing to go against what 10 wants.

- The practical problems of 10/Rose remain... both Rose's mortality and Billie Piper's not being on the show anymore. On the one hand, 10 can't grow old with Rose, but more pressingly, 10.2 would be at more risk living the Doctor's lifestyle. Can 10.2 really do 10's job?

The only real solution I see to this is that 10.2 is a right punk, and he doesn't give 10 a choice. Just blow in in his blue suit, and kick 10 out. Which would be hilarious in its own right.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

See? That's sort of what I got out of it...co-conspirator. Do you get that because I have influenced your brain? Or is that there. I am struck by everyone sort of telling us in the Confidential that this is the best we can do...when there is a better kiss in the Confidential.

I think 10.2 could do 10's job for a bit...yes...if he was trained for it. And really...the problems that remain...aren't insurmountable ones...that she will look older than him...or wither and die. I mean...so she dies...and he's alone? He's alone NOW!

So he is sacrificing his happiness for hers...AGAIN!

And this time we are supposed to buy it...I guess. I mean this time she has exactly what she might want...or...the best she can do...I guess. I need to write fic and fix it...that's all there is to it.

Rae

[slvrcrystalc.livejournal.com]

Is in agreement with everything.

It was never about Rose for me either. I loved Rose for how she made the Doctor feel. I hated Rose only for how she sometimes made the Doctor act. She could have never been able to carry a spin-off on her own because so much of her character is bonded with the Doctor's.

I also feel that something was... wrong with the conclusion. She should have kissed the Doctor, not the half-human Doctor. I'd feel a bit bad for half-D, but TL-Doctor was the one leaving her forever! And what was up with that forever thing?! She never wanted any of those human things, she wanted HIM exactly as he is, with her, forever. She wanted him HAPPY, and when he leaves her he's alone. =(

Even Billy Piper said something felt wrong about the conclusion, on Confidential.

((I dunno about you, but the Doctor in the blue suit, on the beach; he didn't look like the Doctor. He looked like David Tennant. He didn't have that special Doctorness. Did anyone else feel that way?))

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Of course...that's acting for you. It was David Tennant. No sly comment about the kiss there. Okay...the thing is...Rose didn't want something...it wasn't like she was pining for human Doctor...yeah. Or that she felt like she needed this. This is a gift she is burdened with in a way...she almost is being told to take this guy and make him happy. Like she's a breeding cow or something.

And yes...why not say a proper goodbye to the Real Doctor? Why not if she totally is going to love this guy...have him be more like Ten was in the episode? I mean...Ten was so happy about her being there...the way he took delight in everything once she was there. And now he's all alone. And I'm with Billie...it just doesn't seem like something Rose would do...just let him go on alone and unhappy. Everytime she was asked...she said the same thing..."He does it all alone." And that's how I feel, too.

If giving Rose a happy ending had made him content and happy...that would be different...if he'd ended the episode looking out to sea and thinking about what Sarah Jane had said...or if Wilf had underscored it in a meaningful way...anything but alone in the rain...really...that was just...so sad and pointless...Rose would still love him if he went to her.

Rae

[nisrin]

So the Doctor has Rose back, hasn't even had time to talk to her, find out how she is or what she's been doing, and he drops her back in the AU where he'll never see her again? He stands on the beach and essentially tells her that he needs her, that he loves her, that he wants her the way a man wants a woman, that he would give up travelling to have a life with her, and then he denies himself all of it? I don't buy it.

My crack theory is that the Doctor and hybrid Doctor not only shared past memories and thoughts, but they're sharing current ones as well. A shared consciousness. Like a new time lord incarnation is the same Doctor but in a different physical form. In this case, same Doctor and two physical forms. He could see what Donna was thinking too; they were all in each other's heads. When Donna asks hybrid Doctor what just happened after the reality bomb test, he says nothing, just stares like he's listening to Davros explain it to the Doctor, which happens in the next scene. And the Doctor doesn't seem the least bit surprised to see the hybrid show up; he already knows that it's a human biological metacrisis. He wasn't guessing; he knew.

The point being that the Doctor knows he has a job to do in this universe, and he knows that Rose has a family and a life, a finite human life, in her universe. And he has a finite human form that can stay with her forever in that universe. Sharing a consciousness with the hybrid means he will vicariously live the slow path with Rose. Mentally and emotionally, he will love and be loved. He won't have a physical hand to hold, but he'll have her in the place a time lord values the most -- his mind. In that way, I can watch Rose and the hybrid kiss on the beach and not see the Doctor's throat convulsing out of jealousy or regret, but because in his head, he's experiencing the same thing as the hybrid in that moment -- what it feels like to kiss Rose Tyler.

Is it the ideal ending? Definitely not. Does the theory break down in certain places? Sure. Did RTD intend such a thing with his two Doctors? By all accounts, no. But, according to the Confidential, what Russell did intend was to emphasize that the Doctor is lonely and suffering and will always be lonely and suffering. And if that's his conlusion to the Doctor & Rose love story, I'll substitute my own, thanks.

Besides, I love the mental picture of Rose waking up in the morning, looking over at hybrid Doctor, smiling and asking "So where's the TARDIS today?" He grins back, "Birth of the Hadgraeon galaxy. Year 275,000. Had toast and jam for breakfast, bit burnt though. Oh, you should see the nebula, millions of colours. And molecular clouds collapsing under their own gravity. It's fantastic..."

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

That's good. Another easy fix of this...is sort of the John Smith Watch fix...and that is that at the end of his life Hand returns to him...and melts back in...and they share the life with Rose.

But yes...the idea that the Doctor will always be alone and suffering is why this is the end of the show for me. I don't really want to see that go on and on...and it really shouldn't be rewarded with viewership. Also, you just can't feel happy about this ending...and you never will get happy about it...it's not something you wish on people.

And finally...yes...the Doctor is always going to be essentially alone...when Rose dies he would be alone again. So, making him suffering pointlessly like this...is just pointless...there's a temporary Doctor in creation...the Doctor could take a vacation. Later...he could find other ways to unwind and relax and be happy. But River's Doctor...that is this Doctor...and he's not the happy traveler of Old School or even a war-battered but unbeaten hero. He's a man without hope.

And as you say...no thank you!

Rae
already thinking I can fix it in fic...and willing to do so.

[angelic-solace.livejournal.com]

I also agree with everyone else.

To me, the ending felt rushed - tacked on to the end of a mediocre story line that didn't really benefit from the iconography of the Daleks. And I still don't believe the "reality bomb's" ability to destroy atoms, which is a direct contrast to the laws on conservation of matter. But I suppose I can maintain my suspension of disbelief for that aspect.

What really annoyed me was The Doctor making everyone's decisions. Why is Rose expected to be happy with this half life. She doesn't belong in that parallel world - there was never a Rose Tyler there in the first place. And The Doctor's explanation is that someone has to babysit his out of control copy. Doesn't Rose deserve more than that? Is all she aspires to is to be the perfect housewife looking after the damaged "war hero" with excess baggage? She doesn't even get the real thing - or even a exact copy.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I know...it's like he's fobbing her off. And if he was HAPPY about that...then maybe I would think...okay...this is what HE deserves...let's imagine Rose is happy, too.

But nobody is happy, here. If, for example, we had a brief exchange with the REAL Doctor where he explained how or why he had to leave...even if he told Donna or Wilf...or someone. I can't imagine what that reason would be beyond self-flaggilation at this point...I must be alone because I must be alone.

This one is even more pointless than the Buffy/Angel parting. At least Angel had his soul to maintain...the Doctor's soul is laid bare and he's small and pointless and he turns everyone into warriors. It's just not a good legacy for him...it's not a happy show that you will remember and tell your kids about...and I can't see anyone really wanting to be a companion after this. Part of the joy of Old School was pretending that the Doctor might come and carry you away to the stars...and if he could share a life with someone...briefly...you had that hope too.

Now there is no hope. It isn't that we needed to see his other life...we just needed to know that he could take a vacation...that his life wasn't endlessly hopeless...and then one day he will die. SIGH!

He does make everyone's decisions...as he always has...and Rose is expected to make do with this half-life...for me it would be torment. To know the man I love is somewhere else...all alone...and I've got a copy of him. And I feel that my non-Who buddy ThisFickleMob said it best...it would be best if offered a chance at a normal life with "almost him"...Rose turned that down, too.

Rae

[webeh.livejournal.com]

I have mixed feelings about how the Rose/Doctor storyline ended too. On one hand, Human!Doctor has the same memories, same body, and many of the same personality traits. He loves Rose and there's a lot of what Rose loves present in him. I think the pair could be very happy together after some major discussions or counselling. They may actually find comfort in the fact they're both in the same boat, that is the Timelord!Doctor made their life choices for them.

On the other hand, the pair didn't get to make any real decisions. Their current situation was forced onto them by another, which I think could create some resentment. If I was Rose, I'd be very angry at the Doctor for dropping something like this on me. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Human!Doctor felt the same way. But because this is likely to be the last time we'll ever see Rose, I'm just going to assume that the pair "live happily ever after." Because, what else can I do.

Now to Donna. I'll admit that what happened to her bothered me a lot more than what happened to Rose. As a temp living her ordinary life, she was miserable and felt like a no one. Travelling with the Doctor changed that because of the confidence boost that went along with it. For Ten to wipe all thsoe memories from her mind, I just thought it was something completely horrible to watch. So, I hope Moffatt revisits this in a later season so that we know that Donna's doing okay and didn't just go nowhere.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

You just have to do so much adjustment to make this work for everyone. Yes, we can pretend that with time and patience...Rose and AltTen give in to their preplanned lives. Rose is so very stubborn though...that I find that hard to envision.

And poor Donna...yes...she's oblivious...still...but all that loss. And nobody can ever mention who she was to them...even her relatives must lie to her for the rest of her life.

Rae

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

And yet, I argued that I wouldn't like this if it happened... and I do! Well, the whole Donna thing bothers me. Sort of tears my heart out a little. And the Doctor being alone again just broke me. Stop with the Emo!Doctor!.

Why does River get him when Rose doesn't? *has issues*

But, I love the opportunity that this ending opens for fanfic. Getting to know you fic with Rose and Alt!Ten. Learning he's the same, or not, depending on how one feels. Rose popping back to the TARDIS now that Alt!Ten helped safely open a doorway/bridge. Whatever.

It would never happen on the show, so I'm rather satisfied with how it ended. Not ecstatically happy, or even happy at times, but satisfied.

*off to read the comments!*

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I think it is all rather dependent on what you believe...if you believe that Rose is going to solve this problem in some way...or not. In some ways...this is Doomsday only more so...but we still have the problem of damaged Doctor who makes his own misery.

I tend to lose patience with a character when he creates his own pain. And it seems to me that's exactly the line that we have crossed here...because while they did sort of manufacture this reason why he can't stand in for Ten...it does seem a bit far fetched that Ten couldn't spare a few minutes of his long life to find a few moments of happiness with Rose.

Would HAND Doctor feel left out and alone? Maybe...I suppose...but you know I argued that he wouldn't...and he really doesn't seem to love Rose...despite knowing the Doctor loves her. I mean...he knows this is all awkward and will require lots of work to work.

Rae
thinking that the people that create something...ought to feel it works...and nobody in the confidential...thought this worked.

Can you expand upon a bit of this?

[susanb03.livejournal.com]

I think that aging thing might be what Moffat and the BBC are hanging their hat on...though I was disappointed in that because it was a reversal from RTD on LotTL. And it limits DT's lifespan as the Doctor. As you all know, I hate that sort of reversal on a reversal...messy writing. And it does make me think that this is the real ending and RTD doesn't think he can do any better.

I don't understand about your thoughts about the reversal in LotTL and what exactly did you mean about limiting DT's lifespan as the doctor? Sorry, I just don't follow.

Susan

Well...there has always been a problem

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

With any actor in the role of the Doctor...the actor ages...so if you want to do a 3 Doctor's episode...and you bring back the dottering old relic that used to play the dashing Doctor...you have to put him in a girdle and wig and film him in soft light.

But I had hoped that they would find a way to age TEN and still not keep DT around for the next twenty years...and now they have that way...they can just bring back Rose's Ten...as an older man.

I had hoped that they would simply go with what happened in Last of the Time Lords...and say that Ten aged more or less like a normal man...but instead they reverse that...making the aging about the laser screwdriver...and going with him NOT aging normally. Which means...DT will be leaving the show before he shows signs of obvious aging.

Rae

an alternate view

[thisficklemob.livejournal.com]

I was just discussing over on txvoodoo's journal... who doesn't understand the teeth-gnashing. But it came down to she, and apparently many people, seeing 10.2 as just like 10, some relatively petty physiological things aside.

Now, I don't see it that way, as you know. As I said there, if that's what they were trying to say, it all seemed off. (And why not air the passionate kiss?) But it made me feel a little better about the show if that's what they were saying. Yes, they goofed in the editing room, BUT there is a big difference between leaving Rose with a Doctor who doesn't love her and isn't the Doctor she loves, and one who does and fundamentally is.

And it makes original 10 look better too, if that's what he thinks. Because if he really thinks 10.2 is the same as him, just with some bonus features for human-compatibility, then it isn't exactly causing his own pain to leave them there. Well, it is, but it isn't, if he really thinks that 2 out of 3 people can be happy, and he's willing to be the one who's not.

In fact, even if 10's wrong about that (and I think he is), if he thinks so, it's still a lot better than many other interpretations. I might roll my eyes at emo, self-sacrificing 10, but if he's doing it because he thinks it will make his beloved happy... not because she'll be content with a copy, but because 10.2 is him... then it's a lot more *pet the poor lonely Timelord* rather than *smack the dumbass man upside the head*. Which is something.

Well...that's not really alternative for me

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I think he thinks she will be happy because it IS him only more so, too. I just happen to think that he's wrong...and so 3 out of 3 people are unhappy. Though I suppose I could look at it and see that Rose accepts that this is what she gets and learns to live with it.

That's what we have to accept if this is all we get. We have to accept that HandTen is TEN...except more so...and be content.

Rae

[nostariel]

I miss just having a silly alien in a big blue phone box. Nine's (CE) my favorite, but having his arc be happier overall than Ten's is way fucked up.

And now I won't be able to watch any future Doctor without knowing this is all underneath the surface, so there's really no going back to Old Who...not even if they bring back Gallifrey and all the Time Lords and Jenny comes to live with him. :-(

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Right...you can't go back from this. That's my point. If they don't fix it at Christmas...the show is over...they just haven't turned off the life support yet.

Rae
thinking it is very bad when Billie, David and RTD think this ending sucks...and yet...is the best they can do.

[raggyanne.livejournal.com]

Have been reading your comments & totally agree that for me it wasn't about HER, it was about HIM & THEM.

I just don't believe that Rose would turn her back on the Doctor, & I don't think he would turn his back on her, all the moments that they shared during SE & JE, the look on Tens face as he is running towards her, the first hug they share, the grin on his face when she tells him that she was building a machine to bring her back to him tell me that Ten loves Rose & wants to spend "forever" with her. Yes maybe he was trying to gift her the perfect life but what he may deem as a perfect life is never a life that we have been led to believe that Rose even wanted.

If you go back to Doomsday when Ten tried to send Rose off & she came back he never fought her, she said what she wanted & although he may have huffed & puffed he let her have it so I think he could never have left Rose behind if she didn't want to be, which is why he runs away because he thinks he is doing what is right, without even checking what she wants really - & this is the bit I don't buy. In the whole time they spend together they never have a talk, maybe because Ten is avoiding it because after 10.2 is made he knows that there is only one outcome, or maybe its because he is afraid.

The other thing I keep coming back to is PotW - RTD has never really covered what happened to Rose then, what where the long term affects? it was also never covered that Jack could not die & that Rose was the reason for that, we never saw Jack talking to Rose I just don't buy that they didn't have at least a chat before Jack headed off. When the Doctor & Jack first saw each other in TSoD one of the first things Jack asked about was Rose, they had a entire conversation about Rose, so why would Jack not want to have some sort of conversation with Rose when he finally gets to see her. ALSO it is supposed to be about 2-4yrs in Roses timeline since we last saw her so why does she have the same feel of Rose circa 2005, with Martha you could see what changes she had been though, you could see that as a Character she had developed - she even carries herself differently.

Last but not least I find that the utter desolation of Ten when we last see him so sad that I am not overly inclined to invest my emotions anymore in a Character that has no hope, & yes, yes there is River Song but to be frank I don't really care about her - OK so maybe the Doctor has some kind of life with her & he cares enough about her to make sure that she has some kind of happy ending but really I just don't care, the same as I didn't care that Martha loved the Doctor & I don't really care about 10.2, so he loves Rose & he wants to spend his life with her but to me 10.2 is just the Doctors twin brother, he's not the Doctor.

Why did the Doctor have to leave Rose in Alt!Verse to repair 10.2 he could have put her on earth in say Ireland or Canada - then there is no problem with her being on the "list of the dead" - she could have been the friend that 10.2 needed & the Doctor would always have had the open door of hope. But as it ended there was no hope, there was no satisfaction that he had given the love of his life a happy ending & there was no one to be his friend - there was not even a glimmer of Donna feeling a connection to the Doctor - although........... I did see her ring glimmer in the light & when she was being SuperDonna saving the world I am sure (& correct me if I am wrong about this as I have not had the heart to go back & check) but I am sure that she talked about a BioDamper & waved her hand about when she was defeating the Daleks..............

So for me a sad feeling all round as A) I do not believe that Rose would give up on the Doctor B) I do not like to think that Ten is not happy C) I don't like to think that Donna lives a sad life - I want her to walk in the dust, to think more of herself D) I was not happy that Jack & Rose had no resolution E) 10.2 feels like the Booby prize & for me more often than not if I can't have what I want then I would rather go without.

So that's my very short reply to your theories!!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

See? We are in perfect agreement here. This ending is so bad and so hopeless and so wrong that the only recourse it offers fans is to quit watching the show and fill in their own blanks. The Jack/Rose thing was particularly weird. Also, there were odd questions left unanswered...like why Rose was always wearing the same clothes. Maybe that is a nod to the Doctor, though, always wearing the same thing. Shame Rose's clothes weren't cooler in that case.

To me, either RTD can fix this or he's actually so enamored of his lonely God concept that it has completely warped the show away from anything approaching hope. The idea that the Doctor could share a life with River one day...and then allow her to die...but not share a life with Rose...means the life with River must have been just as shallow and meaningless as the episode we saw her in suggests.

This ending actually suggest that everything, every relationship was shallow and meaningless...which is weird given RTD's strong streak of romance. So, the other view we can take is he just didn't THINK he could let the Doctor live a life because of BBC constraints. But it is very odd to have had no emotion from 10.2 in that beach scene. Rose seems confused and her kissing him confused me...but not nearly as much as her jerking away from him to run toward the man she really loved.

I mean...I can see kissing him if she thought he might really be 10 somehow...but it is painfully obvious that she doesn't think that at the end. 10.2 takes her hand but there is none of the leaning in we associate with the relationship. And anyway...the things is...it is about 10...we all get that...we all get that he's sad and lonely and alone...and we are being asked to accept that this is how he will always be and even Rose can't save him or help him...since she's got what she wants now.

And, as far as anyone can tell, she never wanted what she now has. I do like the idea that the Doctor's most faithful companion is HOPE....and now that is dead. I wonder what a Doctor without hope ends up looking like?

Rae

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

I just made it through roughly 100 comments--woot!

One thought I had that pertained to both Rose & Donna (which I elaborated upon in my journal) that I didn't see anyone address here:

Ten is an unbelievable masochist for taking her (and himself, er, selves) back to Bad Wolf Bay. And it's in this scene that the episode went pear shaped for me the first viewing. And that's because Donna was totally out of character. Donna Noble, Human, would not have let Ten get away with not telling Rose that he loved her. Donna Noble, Human, would have made sure he at least said goodbye. Donna Noble, Human, would have known how much it hurt him, how much it cost him, to leave his Rose behind with another man wearing his face, to see him say the words he wouldn't allow himself for fear of never being able to leave her, to see her instinctively react to him and kiss him as if he really was Ten. To believe that eventually she would never try to find the real him again. That it really was over. And Donna Noble, Human, would know that bouncing about the TARDIS was the last thing on his mind. But Ten had a bigger problem. He realized well before we see Donna's tic that he had already lost her, too.

And so, in the end, we see the Doctor totally alone. Even when Donna doesn't know him any more, he still seeks her out to say goodbye. And the rain, yet again, is the proxy for the tears he cannot allow himself to cry, just like we saw in "The Runaway Bride." He has lost Rose, again. He has lost a dear friend who understood him better than anyone else has in a long time. He has sent all of his friends, all those people willing to die for him, away. He is utterly alone. And more broken than we saw him in Series One.

And again, my thought on WHY Ten does this is because Caan didn't betray Davros. Caan USED Davros to destroy the Doctor and win the war over the Time Lords. It's why Rose's machine suddenly started working. It's why she was required to be there as part of the prophecy. She was there to break Ten utterly.

Now...my only hope is that UNCLE RUSTY WILL FIX IT OR I SHALL NEVER FORGIVE HIM!!!!

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

I still say its possible to fix it. Rusty isn't gone yet. The series is in jepordy because all the fans are angry. ALL OF THEM. I feel like the Who fans are like Democrats and Republicans. You please one side, you piss off the other. You have the shippers and the non-shippers. Before the finale I thought this could only end badly for one side and I was hoping it wasn't ours. I was shocked to find out that was wrong and Rusty pissed EVERYONE off. Even the Torchwood fans are pissed. I read on the BBC that the majority of veiwers felt cheated and that overall there were mixed reviews. Rusty tanked a 45 year old series and the BBC isn't going to have that. Too much money has been made so far and they aren't going to let that be pulled. We may not see something happen right away. It may happen after the Christmas special; with the four parter.Otherwise its over for DW. You'll be seeing the once over-priced DVDs in the clearence bin. The BBC will give it the AX after one season with Moffat and thats it. No more DW unless someone who really DOES know how to write, brings it back.

Rusty is full of surprises. Right now he's the most hated man in Britain. So, he'll do something to save the series and make the Doctor happy again. He'd better. If he doesn't people will expect this kind of crap in his other series and it will kill his career. He has a chance, they;ve postponed production on the four parter so David can finish Hamlet.Lets see if this fucker is smart enough to save his own balls.