Time Lord Reproduction
May. 12th, 2008 01:18 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rabid1stThere will be Aired in the U.K. S4 SPOILERS in this post. There will also be future episode speculation…but NO FUTURE SPOILERS. And don’t tell me any in your comments, either. If you know something…that proves or disproves or invites further speculation about what I’m posting…please, please, keep it mum.
Okay...feel free to skip the Old School stuff ahead...if you know it already.
Old School canon…telly canon not book canon...tells us a few things about Time Lords and Gallifrey. This post is very long-winded as it is just as much about Old School and Doctor Who, in general, as it is about anything else. So, let’s list what we know, shall we…
1)We know that the Doctor apparently had a biological family…granddaughter, Susan…a brother and children he took part in rearing and was “Dad” to. A sharp distinction is made about this...versus children of machines or test tubes or looms.
2)He has been married…or at least participated in a wedding ceremony which he viewed as “my own.”
3)We know that Time Lords regenerate. Tegan asks the Doctor if he can “still regenerate” and he says, “I am a Time Lord.” We could, if we liked, interpret this as meaning that it is the ability to regenerate itself that makes him a Time Lord on some level.
4)We also know that the Time Lords are able to “restore” regenerative ability and give another set of 12 regenerations to someone who has already used up all of their original ones. They offer this to the Master.
5)Beyond that…via the Master, again…we know that they can force their personality onto a host body…and then that host body can be granted regenerative abilities. So the physical body of a Gallifreyan isn't necessary.
6)We know regeneration is a choice for most Time Lords…and they can even chose NOT to do it...ala Last of the Time Lords.
7)We know that Time Lords regenerate 12 times…13 bodies and that those we have seen who press beyond that limit are generally power mad…Borusa, The Master…even Rassilon, perhaps.
8)We know that Rassilon has a secret to immortality...we don't know if it is a way to go beyond 12 regenerations though.
9)We know that all Time Lord knowledge…the essences of their former selves were recorded in a computer called The Matrix…and that some kind of essence of future selves can visit an existing Time Lord…ala the Valeyard to Six and Five to Four. We know that a Time Lord's essence can outlive his/her body...because the Master has done this, too.
10)There's a Chameleon Arch on every Time Lord TARDIS? WTF? I mean, why? Not just so we can write a story...they should have a FIC-REALITY reason for one. Well...maybe it is something they do...stick their memories and Time Lordliness into something else. The Master's essence was trapped in a box, I think, for the DW Movie. This could explain why the Doctor does better when he gets to the TARDIS. I've always said, she remembers him...maybe it's more than that...maybe she records his identity in some way.
We can reasonably assume because of The Master and Lucy Saxon, Susan and David and Leela and What’s his face…that Gallifreyans and humans are biologically compatible enough to have some form of sexual interaction.
Any gay or lesbian or sexually handicapped person can tell you that need not mean traditional intercourse. There are lots of things people do that fall within the scope of lovemaking. We do not know if such interaction is biologically viable…if any union between humans and Gallifreyans produced children or if said children would be capable of carrying on a hybrid line. But we do know that the Doctor offered Joan “everything John Smith” was capable of…and that meant giving her children.
So…here comes my radical idea…around a couple of assumptive curves. Let’s assume that the Doctor is indeed asexual. That his species is NOT, but that being a Time Lord makes him asexual. If we link that to the ability to regenerate…it makes sense. Gallifreyans (or anyone else, perhaps) can trade away the ability to breed naturally…for the ability to cheat death. This would mean that the Doctor had his wife and his children before he became a Time Lord, in the full sense of the word…before he was able to regenerate. Maybe Susan was simply from this family and his first companion.
I think that, if he had to give up being a Time Lord to have that again with Rose, it would explain his taking his time considering every option and angle. He would have to be very sure of Rose's devotion. It would be weighing the ability to reproduce against his entire way of life...like a monk forsaking his vows...or a prince abducating his throne.
Now…follow me closely…what if it is just like a prince...what if all he is...his regenerative ability…can be passed on to another person? What if that is how Time Lords produce other Time Lords? What if they pick someone…and pass on their regenerative ability…after 12 regenerations? At one point Harriet Jones asks the Doctor if that is just a title that’s passed on…and he tells he's the same man with a different face, different everything. But there has long been fanon about the possibility of a title passed on(that the Doctor is much older than he seems) and there is the book canon of the Other as well.
What if the Doctor could simply stop being a Time Lord, but the title of The Doctor could go on? What if that’s how Time Lords get more Time Lords? They store all they know in the Matrix...then biologically give their regenerative ability, their very identity away. They still keep their personality and their memories...but they copy them like a hard drive back up. Let’s say…when a Time Lord is ready to retire (or he falls in love and wants to reproduce with some human girl)…he can give, oh…12 new regenerations to another person along with all of his accumulated wisdom. Not all the emotional baggage, mind...just the history if you will.
Let’s say…Donna took on too much radiation from those Huron particles and she is dying of cancer, nothing can save her because she waits too long to tell the Doctor about it. But maybe she can be with him forever…joined in body like a wife…and set him free to go to Rose too. Maybe he can give her his ability to regenerate….let her become the DoctorDonna, friend of the Ood. You remember that annoying line where the Eighth Doctor claims he’s “half human on his mother’s side?” Well…maybe his particular body WAS half-human before he became THE DOCTOR. That is...before the Doctor before him, passed on his essence, his wisdom and the ability to regenerate.
I see him helping the DoctorDonna during the three encores in 2009. He takes a little time before he goes to Rose or during the transition. I see Donna dying and regenerating into a man…and going… “I’m a man.” And the former Doctor going…”Yeah, well…that can happen, sorry! You need to focus. I never really got the hang of it, myself.”
Rae
…who is, no doubt, seeing Crackfic…but that’s okay…I had fun with this and I really do see no reason, given canon, why Time Lords can’t reproduce by passing on their wisdom and skill…I think that fits in very well with S4...the episodes so far have been centering around alternative ways of reproducing.
Okay...feel free to skip the Old School stuff ahead...if you know it already.
Old School canon…telly canon not book canon...tells us a few things about Time Lords and Gallifrey. This post is very long-winded as it is just as much about Old School and Doctor Who, in general, as it is about anything else. So, let’s list what we know, shall we…
1)We know that the Doctor apparently had a biological family…granddaughter, Susan…a brother and children he took part in rearing and was “Dad” to. A sharp distinction is made about this...versus children of machines or test tubes or looms.
2)He has been married…or at least participated in a wedding ceremony which he viewed as “my own.”
3)We know that Time Lords regenerate. Tegan asks the Doctor if he can “still regenerate” and he says, “I am a Time Lord.” We could, if we liked, interpret this as meaning that it is the ability to regenerate itself that makes him a Time Lord on some level.
4)We also know that the Time Lords are able to “restore” regenerative ability and give another set of 12 regenerations to someone who has already used up all of their original ones. They offer this to the Master.
5)Beyond that…via the Master, again…we know that they can force their personality onto a host body…and then that host body can be granted regenerative abilities. So the physical body of a Gallifreyan isn't necessary.
6)We know regeneration is a choice for most Time Lords…and they can even chose NOT to do it...ala Last of the Time Lords.
7)We know that Time Lords regenerate 12 times…13 bodies and that those we have seen who press beyond that limit are generally power mad…Borusa, The Master…even Rassilon, perhaps.
8)We know that Rassilon has a secret to immortality...we don't know if it is a way to go beyond 12 regenerations though.
9)We know that all Time Lord knowledge…the essences of their former selves were recorded in a computer called The Matrix…and that some kind of essence of future selves can visit an existing Time Lord…ala the Valeyard to Six and Five to Four. We know that a Time Lord's essence can outlive his/her body...because the Master has done this, too.
10)There's a Chameleon Arch on every Time Lord TARDIS? WTF? I mean, why? Not just so we can write a story...they should have a FIC-REALITY reason for one. Well...maybe it is something they do...stick their memories and Time Lordliness into something else. The Master's essence was trapped in a box, I think, for the DW Movie. This could explain why the Doctor does better when he gets to the TARDIS. I've always said, she remembers him...maybe it's more than that...maybe she records his identity in some way.
We can reasonably assume because of The Master and Lucy Saxon, Susan and David and Leela and What’s his face…that Gallifreyans and humans are biologically compatible enough to have some form of sexual interaction.
Any gay or lesbian or sexually handicapped person can tell you that need not mean traditional intercourse. There are lots of things people do that fall within the scope of lovemaking. We do not know if such interaction is biologically viable…if any union between humans and Gallifreyans produced children or if said children would be capable of carrying on a hybrid line. But we do know that the Doctor offered Joan “everything John Smith” was capable of…and that meant giving her children.
So…here comes my radical idea…around a couple of assumptive curves. Let’s assume that the Doctor is indeed asexual. That his species is NOT, but that being a Time Lord makes him asexual. If we link that to the ability to regenerate…it makes sense. Gallifreyans (or anyone else, perhaps) can trade away the ability to breed naturally…for the ability to cheat death. This would mean that the Doctor had his wife and his children before he became a Time Lord, in the full sense of the word…before he was able to regenerate. Maybe Susan was simply from this family and his first companion.
I think that, if he had to give up being a Time Lord to have that again with Rose, it would explain his taking his time considering every option and angle. He would have to be very sure of Rose's devotion. It would be weighing the ability to reproduce against his entire way of life...like a monk forsaking his vows...or a prince abducating his throne.
Now…follow me closely…what if it is just like a prince...what if all he is...his regenerative ability…can be passed on to another person? What if that is how Time Lords produce other Time Lords? What if they pick someone…and pass on their regenerative ability…after 12 regenerations? At one point Harriet Jones asks the Doctor if that is just a title that’s passed on…and he tells he's the same man with a different face, different everything. But there has long been fanon about the possibility of a title passed on(that the Doctor is much older than he seems) and there is the book canon of the Other as well.
What if the Doctor could simply stop being a Time Lord, but the title of The Doctor could go on? What if that’s how Time Lords get more Time Lords? They store all they know in the Matrix...then biologically give their regenerative ability, their very identity away. They still keep their personality and their memories...but they copy them like a hard drive back up. Let’s say…when a Time Lord is ready to retire (or he falls in love and wants to reproduce with some human girl)…he can give, oh…12 new regenerations to another person along with all of his accumulated wisdom. Not all the emotional baggage, mind...just the history if you will.
Let’s say…Donna took on too much radiation from those Huron particles and she is dying of cancer, nothing can save her because she waits too long to tell the Doctor about it. But maybe she can be with him forever…joined in body like a wife…and set him free to go to Rose too. Maybe he can give her his ability to regenerate….let her become the DoctorDonna, friend of the Ood. You remember that annoying line where the Eighth Doctor claims he’s “half human on his mother’s side?” Well…maybe his particular body WAS half-human before he became THE DOCTOR. That is...before the Doctor before him, passed on his essence, his wisdom and the ability to regenerate.
I see him helping the DoctorDonna during the three encores in 2009. He takes a little time before he goes to Rose or during the transition. I see Donna dying and regenerating into a man…and going… “I’m a man.” And the former Doctor going…”Yeah, well…that can happen, sorry! You need to focus. I never really got the hang of it, myself.”
Rae
…who is, no doubt, seeing Crackfic…but that’s okay…I had fun with this and I really do see no reason, given canon, why Time Lords can’t reproduce by passing on their wisdom and skill…I think that fits in very well with S4...the episodes so far have been centering around alternative ways of reproducing.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2008-05-13 01:47 am (UTC)There has definitely been a distinction made between regular old Gallifreyans and Time Lords/Ladies. I was under the impression that you acquired the ability to regenerate as part of the training to be a Time Lord/Lady. Kinda like...pass the final exam and you get the prize. Or something like that.
Andred is who you were trying to think of. I could be totally remembering this wrong (I keep saying this, but I do really need to go back and watch the old school episodes!), but it seemed to me like the Outsiders (or whatever they were called) didn't regenerate. And I'm sure there were non-Time Lord Gallifreyans around the Citadel to do things like cook and clean. I don't see the high and mighty Time Lords doing dishes! lol
I don't know that Time Lords would necessarily trade away their ability to procreate, but perhaps as part of the training, they learn to shut down that portion of themselves. Most probably wouldn't see any reason to activate it again...they've become too remote, too detached, and they'd rather use some other method to breed.
But the Doctor has always been outside of the normal Time Lord "mold". I imagine that he received the same training as the rest, but there's always been some little spark inside him. Even One was a bit flirtatious at times, and you can't tell me that was standard for Time Lords! *grin*
I do agree that it makes sense that this is the trade off for the awesome power that they wield. When you are dealing in terms of the universe, how can you expect to have a family and such. It would pull your priorities in two different directions (something which has been explored in several fanfics to great result).
I also agree that the time that the Doctor was a "dad" had to be before he started training to be a Time Lord. I wonder what would have prompted him to start that training. Maybe his wife died and his child(ren) grew up and didn't need him any more - so he took on the challenge. We know that he struggled with his studies (and obviously had serious problems with the piloting classes!), and although he managed to pass everything (except the piloting...which I do think is very much in question), I can totally see him getting fed up with not really being able to *do* anything with all of this knowledge. So he steals a junker TARDIS and takes off to see the universe.
Anyway, getting back to the subject, I don't think it's too farfetched to think that Time Lords have the ability to pass along some or all of their lives/regenerations. The Master has been resurrected so many times, and several of those were from some sort of essence/spirit state. And you can't tell me that whole ring business at the end of TLotTL wasn't a great big loophole to bring him back some time in the future.
I read a fanfic by...shoot, I'm not sure who it was now, but they used the idea that when Nine kissed Rose in PotW, he was actually *giving* his life to her, to heal the damage done by the Vortex. That seemed remarkably reasonable to me...I mean, this little human survived, and the Time Lord (who held the Vortex for a much shorter timie) didn't? Doesn't make sense...but it would if Nine had actually given up his life to save Rose.
We've also seen Ten "breathe" energy/essence into the TARDIS crystal. So there's got to be some way to transfer at least some of the Time Lord essence/energy/whatever you want to call it.
As for DoctorDonna? Well, I don't really see it happening (though it would be a hoot to have a female Doctor at some point!), but completely agree that something like that *could* be possible.
Hee. "She's a MAN, baby!" XD
(no subject)
Date: 2008-05-13 01:52 am (UTC)We are sick...sick people...
Date: 2008-05-13 02:11 am (UTC)Man...I totally forgot about him breathing life into the TARDIS circuitry. And since my idea is linked to the TARDIS being a store house of his knowledge and a sort of remote sense of his self (which I use in Disheveled, you might have noticed and...) which is completely old school and new school canon...it is important that there is a chameleon arch and that he can give life to the TARDIS.
Oh, and if you read the other comments, I postulated that Susan was the Doctor before our Doctor...wouldn't that be a hoot...and it would explain why she was trying to blend in to human society...and was then locked out of the TARDIS for her own good.
I am not putting any of this forward as a viable guess about the future...but I think the Doctor giving Donna his sport's car keys and a new life so that he can take time off with Rose...is a viable possibility. Like I say elsewhere...maybe he intended to do that to Rose and found he loved her too much to let go...not a problem with Donna.
Rae
Of course, the entire problem with this theory...
Date: 2008-05-13 02:18 am (UTC)It would be a huge concession for many fans to admit that the Doctor might even WANT to settle down with Rose. Add to that the idea of him retiring from the stage for even a moment...and you have a big change. Then, add to that...the title of The Doctor being passed on...now...passed to a WOMAN...now passed to a woman many of them don't respect...now...what if she STAYS a woman? I don't think she would...if she doesn't...will the fanbase simply say that THE DOCTOR has taken over Donna's body...and Donna died. And a human went to Rose?
Probably that IS what the fanon would say. I think the real problem would be the BBC kicking.
As for your understanding of "the Academy"...well...could be that's where they learn to be Time Lords...it seems to me that Rose and Donna and Jack and the Doctor himself...learned on the run. A sort of Time Lord practicum...if Susan was the previous Doctor...that would make sense...she took the old man and a TARDIS and ran for it...and HE is still running.
Not that I really buy the Susan thing...but it would be very cool if he could switch genders...and we could do say...3 episodes in 2009 with female Doctors.
Rae
Re: Of course, the entire problem with this theory...
Date: 2008-05-14 05:02 pm (UTC)It's not outside the realm of possibility that the Doctor could regenerate into a woman (even one we've seen before, ala Romana II). He does say in PotW that pretty much anything could happen during the regeneration process, so amazingly, it would fit into canon without a problem (technically, anyway).
But the Doctor has been male for so long, that I don't think the Beeb would be too keen on freaking out the kiddies with a gender switch.
Hee. Did you ever see "The Curse of Fatal Death"? I loved that every cracky idea was played out on screen.
I don't think I've seen that...is it Old School?
Date: 2008-05-14 05:26 pm (UTC)I also think that some of his work is influenced by being the man behind Doctor Who. He is probably asked the same sorts of questions over and over again.
Could the Doctor be a woman? Is a prime example of something he is no doubt asked a lot of times.
Will the Doctor ever find Rose? Why can't he settled down and start a new family? Are the Time Lords coming back? Are all the Time Lords really gone? Is David Tennant leaving soon? Who will you get to replace him? And I happen to think many children asked him if a) the Doctor was in love with Martha now? and b) the Doctor is married to Donna because of the wedding dress and the scene with him putting a ring on her finger? Children tend to latch onto symbolism like wedding dresses and draw conclusions.
So...it could well be that the sledgehammer of him not being Donna's husband is the same as the sledgehammer of him not loving Martha the way he loved Rose. Just an overdone, make it very clear to all and sundry kind of thing.
Rae
You've never seen it???
Date: 2008-05-14 06:57 pm (UTC)Here you go:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wi460y (part 1)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/ff5sno (part 2)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-05-15 10:19 am (UTC)Good suggestion, ramblinsuze! I hadn't realized that Rae hadn't seen it.
Rae, it's old school AND new, in that it was written by Steven Moffat. It's a 1999 Comic Relief skit. I cannot wait until you've see the cast!
:-D
Best running gag: "Dalek bumps". LOL!
Re: We are sick...sick people...
Date: 2008-05-14 04:56 pm (UTC)Susan as a previous Doctor? Nah...doesn't work for me, I'm afraid. I could see maybe passing along knowledge and regenerations and such to another person...sort of a not-so-evil version of Master possessing other people. But not a full-boat *poof* you're now a Time Lord/Lady, independent of the original Time Lord/Lady.
You know...I don't buy the Susan thing so much
Date: 2008-05-15 12:55 pm (UTC)When they are talking about if Jenny is a Time Lord. He says, "That's what I am...where I'm from." And she says, "And I'm from you." Then he says "You're an echo. That's all. A Time Lord is so much more. A sum of knowledge. A code. A shared history. A shared pain."
I'm sure he is being poetic here and speaking of the shared pain of his people as a whole. But it does also fit what I'm saying...if he actually means that he hasn't shared his "true self" with Jenny to make her a Time Lord. And you know...well...those red finger nails and the laugh as someone picks up the ring in LotTL. That always made me think that the next time we see the Master he will be female and look like Lucy.
Anyway, I do think Susan took it a bit too far, I would much rather she was just a plain old Grandfather. But, as for "poof now you are a Time Lord/Lady" I wouldn't say Donna is like that at all...he is training her on the run. And I am only purposing that he picked up Rose to train her...then Martha...that this interest he has in humans is a little bit deviant in that he IS looking for one that deserves to be elevated...but so far the only one who did is Rose and unfortunately he fell in love with her.
Okay...okay...I will readily admit the odds are very much against this theory...but I do think it would be a very cool way to reproduce your own kind asexually. And it would explain why Rose used Time Lord the way she did. And it would tie in with her mother's worry that she would become less something other than human if she traveled with the Doctor. And it would fit the Doctor's 'eye-opening' moment about Rose, too..."Everything she did was so human." I've always felt that is the moment where he knew he loved her and would never willingly part from her...but what if it hit him that he wasn't going to make her a spiritual sister there, too?
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2008-05-13 04:55 am (UTC)Not sure if this is what you read, ramblinsuze, but The Life Fantastic by honorh explained that Nine used the power of the Vortex to heal Rose, in the way that Rose had just used the power of the Vortex to raise Jack (etc, etc, etc). This was the one explanation that worked for me: it was so simple, it was elegant. The relevant excerpt:
P.S. - "Oh, Behave." ;-)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-05-14 04:49 pm (UTC)No, this fic actually explained somewhere along the way that Nine intentionally gave up his life/energy/whatever to Rose so that she could live. I wish I could remember which one it was...I think it was a fic by AmberFocus or LostWolfChats, but I'd have to go back and try to find it.
Yeah, baby!