Doctor Who: Fearless Anniversary Predictions

[rabid1st]

Well, everyone is doing it...so why not?

Obviously, there will be spoilers for S7 under this cut, and a few casting spoilers for the anniversary, too. But I know nothing concrete beyond those, so I'm not going to seriously spoil anyone who reads the papers.

I think Moff understands time travel far better than 97% of his fanbase. Therefore, I think Moff knows that from Clara and Eleven's current perspective, John Hurt does not need to be a Doctor from the past to be regarded in a past tense. We were looking at what remained of the Doctor's entire life in that TARDIS tomb. So, all of his regenerations are there, in a past tense. Clara, on the other hand, has worked backward through time, counting up to her own involvement in this...but she didn't go ahead of her real meeting with Eleven. So...John Hurt is most likely Twelve.

Now, Twelve is an interesting number, and I can't believe Moff is ignorant of that fact. Twelve is technically the last Doctor. Because we know that the Valeyard came into being between Twelve and Thirteen. So, you could argue that ELEVEN is the last Doctor, which I think is what Moff is planning to do. Because we do have the Valeyard in this timeline. He's mentioned by name as one of the names of the Doctor. And we know that the Doctor is going on to become The Beast as well...that would be Twelve or Thirteen. I've heard it postulated that the Doctor started the Time War as well as finished it. And I think that's a good guess. But I would imagine it was Twelve and not 8.5 that did that. After all, a Time War can start in the future as well as in the past. And the Doctor has been decending into darkness since he let Rose go.

Will Moff address THAT? I imagine he would not look at it romantically, because he isn't likely to elevate Rose's importance. Mostly, though, I feel this way because, while I can't stand what's become of the Doctor, I see no evidence to support Moff being anything but thrilled with his creation. So...no hope he's going to suddenly see the error of his writing ways. There is only hope that he thinks he can get the Doctor out of any consequences for juvenile behavior.

With this in mind, I think Moff is planning to clean up the Time War. He is going to have Eleven and Clara outsmart his timeline, flexing and bending it around, so he is no longer buried at Trenzalore. Maybe there will be some hint of immortality in this. He is going to do this by convincing Twelve not to stop being the Doctor and go completely evil and, thereby, create the Valeyard. Once the Valeyard is removed from history...I think that Gallifrey will be restored, sans Rassilon and company, and the show can go forward with a happy-go-lucky Doctor and Clara into a new era. That's my prediction, anyway. The one scrap of good news in this type of reset is we might get a new backstory where Rose isn't in some backwater universe, but instead spent her life with Ten...and Donna lived happily with all her memories. On the other hand, without the Time War we might never have Bad Wolf Rose. And we certainly wouldn't have the mastery of Eccleston as Nine. I'd be happy enough with the constant meddling of Moff...if he could give us a consistent time line. But, then, even if he rewrites time and space, I would imagine somewhere...out there...is the universe of pain that RTD gave us, too.

Comments

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

It would be pretty typical of Moff to try to stamp over every important concept of RTD's and attempt to do it his way. The size of the man's ego is staggering. I hope you're right. I'd love to know where Ten, Rose and the Zygons fit into all this, though. Possibly everything we've seen filmed on location is a decoy story that doesn't really matter.

[kitsune17.livejournal.com]

Two things.

One: Your icon is awesome. Is there a short or something, or is it just someone's crafting?

Two: I completely agree with you on the size of Moff's ego.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

The icon is from a Confidential, I think. That is just David in costume, being David. But that smile is so infectious and Doctorish that I had to nab the icon for my I&B mindset.

As for Moff's ego, it does appear to be running amok and running our show into oblivion. Lord save us from people who think they are geniuses, but are really only meticulous narcissists.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh, not my icon...Cats! Hee!

Well, hers is from someone who has crafted Puppet Doctor Who. She gave me the address somewhere in this LJ...but I don't know where.

Here is a youtube link...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWLD_dZUKvk

[kitsune17.livejournal.com]

:D Puppet Who. That's brilliant.

"Lord save us from people who think they are geniuses, but are really only meticulous narcissists." Hahaha. Very much this.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's from doctorpuppet.tumblr.com. Do watch the movies, they are adorable and not just eleven ;-) It bothers me that I like puppet Eleven so much more than the official one.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well, it is possible that the location shooting photos are just a memory of some kind. Since Ten and Queen Elizabeth has been alluded to many times.

If this is a Valeyard story, it would makes sense to have him plan to rewrite the Doctor's time line. After all, that was what he was trying to do in the past. If we can believe him. The thing about his story originally...was we did not believe him...we all trusted the Doctor. Now, we don't really trust the Doctor...so...the Valeyard could be our good guy, trying to convince Eleven to change.

Still, I don't know that Moff's ego will allow for HIS Doctor to change, though I can easily see him changing everyone else to suit himself. The man does appear to have a huge ego.

[susanb03.livejournal.com]

I (unfortunately) can see Moff 'handwaving' everything that happened before in "time can be rewritten" and never addressing ANY OF IT. He's just that kind of writer. He doesn't seem to CARE what's been set before. sigh

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

He is that kind of writer. This is why I don't think the regenerations issue is going to sway him much. It is far too easy, even given the canon, to handwave that issue.

I saw someone say the Valeyard isn't that interesting a character and I thought that person must have no imagination at all. Not because I particularly liked the Valeyard, I'm not a fan of his, but he does leave us with some huge questions that RTD expanded on when he re-imagined the series. So, to leave him unaddressed...seems like a huge waste of storyline potential to me.

[finding-neo.livejournal.com]

I am very curious how Queen Elizabeth will be involved because 10 "seduced" her during the Specials, not during Rose's tenure. I saw that as RTD's way of showing that 10 had become a bad boy without the influence of a companion. We also know from Shakespeare Code that as soon as she saw him Queen Elizabeth shouted, "Off with his head!" so he got in some kind of trouble with her as 10 or she would not have recognized him. I suspect we are about to find out what kind of trouble and that makes me a bit giddy.

Moffat might understand time travel, but that does not mean he should twist and violate established Doctor Who canon regarding it. I'm afraid the lure of doing so is too great, however, since the Doctor has no one to stop him and no reason to abide by said established time travel "laws," since it's my understanding the Time Lords were like Time Police, although apparently they didn't go around with billy clubs about it.

Yes, I can see him liberally using the time can be rewritten excuse. He's already doing so with Clara as he's establishing that she has had an impact on his whole life. "Not that one. This one has a broken Chameleon Circuit and is much more fun." Sheesh

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

To be fair, we haven't seen any shots, to my limited knowledge, at least, with Ten and Rose together. In fact, we have no idea if Billie is even back to PLAY Rose. She could be playing an Alt!Version of Rose...or the Bad Wolf...or some manifestation of the Doctor's subconscious. I am encouraged by her being in Cardiff for a week, rather than a single day, but I'm not THAT encouraged, given I have seen no photos of her in costume or with David.

I do think that Ten became a bad boy without Rose...and that manifested again in his "I don't want to go" hubris. Ten dividing himself was the beginning of the Doctor not being the Doctor anymore. Not fixing things, but making them worse. All of JE, the treatment of ALL of the companions, not just Rose, was rather inexcusable...dismissive.

I have my own theories about Time Lords. I do think that they have been mostly malevolent from the Doctor's point of view. But, part of Time Lord mythology is that, as they age, they go mad. And with the Valeyard, the PTB entered an idea into the canon that the Doctor would be going mad, too. Or, doing something to stop his own madness. This is why the character should be addressed. My question is...how much of this extraordinary time meddling that Moff is doing...does he consider WRONG...that is, how much of it is evidence that the Doctor is indeed going Mad?

Probably none of it. Probably Moff is an egotist who will continue to destroy the show. But, perhaps, since he is also very meticulous, he truly is telling the story of the Doctor going mad. That is what I would do in his place. But he's not me, so...we shall see. I was pleasantly surprised in the back half of S7 that Moff did get a handle on his character a bit. He has only detracted from his history, but at least he is writing the Doctor better...and that is good.

[finding-neo.livejournal.com]

I wondered about no-Billie pictures as well, but then realized they could have been in-studio filming, although you would think there would have been pictures of them together at the read through, unless she couldn't be there. Not sure how often that happens, but stuff happens in people's lives and they can't attend important things, so I suppose it's possible she wasn't at the read through with David and Matt. I believe there was a distant one taken that showed her and David outside, but I tried to block out whatever pictures I did see, so don't rely on me. I was so upset when I saw the one of Queen Elizabeth! I recognized the costume immediately and felt sick that I would have to watch what that off with his head remark meant, although if it's suitably entertaining I'll have to forgive and that's the only reason I'm giddy about it.

Maybe the sudden Who explosion in the US has caused a reaction from the BBC accordingly and they want to capitalize on their new cash cow. So I wonder how much of what Moffat does is profit driven vs. story driven. Everyone speaks about his ego, never met the man, in his interviews he doesn't seem overly haughty to me, but then I wasn't on Twitter when he was a tweet-o-holic. My only hope is that his 8 year old self won't let him get away with whatever the BBC has in mind for the Doctor. I believe that all we're going to see of the original series Doctors is what we saw in Name of the Doctor and the reason they won't be back for the 50th is because the BBC doesn't want to alienate these new American fans. That's not a diss at Nu-Whovians, it is not their fault. I just don't want Doctor Who to become another bloated, aged show like Star Trek because of a studio's profit driven decisions.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, I figure Billie is mostly filming indoors. But, that means we do not really know what she is doing in the special. But we do know that David is having a picnic with Queen Elizabeth...and perhaps proposing. This is pure Moff, even though it is RTD that let it go. I am not amused by a Doctor that goes around trying to bed historical figures. It isn't something I enjoy in my heroes. The Doctor is not James Bond. I just feel like Moff has ruined the character. I can't wait for him to be out of the job.

But, I don't think I will watch after the Anniversary. I suppose it will be like the final nail in the coffin for me. I now don't particularly like Clara anymore...now that I know she has no independent identity. I had hoped she had some impetus of her own, beyond her plot mystery. But it turns out to be all about Moff's ego. And that poisons her charms for me.

I think the reason the old Doctor's won't be back is that RTD stated the Doctor cannot age. This means the only way to show him as old is to create some kind of temporal issue to age him. But, since they can CGI, it doesn't really matter for the show. I think they will create CGI when they need an older Doctor from this point onward. I am afraid that Doctor Who is already a sadly bloated show, full of fan service. I mean, even if I was a River Song fan, I would wonder what she was doing in this last episode. She appears to have no REAL role to play. She is just there to assure us that she is special. So, she is Moff talking to us, insisting that we love what he loves.

Rae

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Re the US market, I see a growing disconnect between the international (US-dominated) audience the BBC seems to be aiming at, and the loyal mostly English fanbase. And I wonder if there's some kind of split on the cards, with one arm going to an increasingly conventional action-hero franchise and the other, possibly internet/subscription based, a more whimsical, niche Doctor. They could easily feature classic Doctors with CGI, as the recent finale shows.

I'd be interested to know how much control a living actor who has played the Doctor has over the use of his image. I can't see Tennant minding what they did with it all that much, and they'll have Matt tied up contractually, but CE could really cut up rough. That could be why they've gone this dark route of suggesting that the Doctor went rogue somewhere between the 8th and 10th regenerations - it would give them a way to exclude CE from any future treatments if he won't co-operate.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Further thoughts, people have noted the apparent absence of Paul McGann despite his willingness to be involved. Could it be he's keeping his powder dry for some movie treatment? Since the American audience is familiar with him from the last TV movie, it wouldn't surprise me.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I have heard a theory that John Hurt is playing a much older Eight. And so represents something along those lines...but if they are going to do something to rewrite the Time War...I can see them wanting to keep Eight on reserve for the Anniversary. He could well be lying about his involvement so far. And they could be using David to distract the press. After all, David is very good at press distractions.

As for your web identity idea. Well, I do see a split coming where New Who divorces itself from the burdens of Old Who. Moff doesn't like the original character of the Doctor. So, I can see him being desperate to disallow any canon. He's even mentioned that he thinks canon should be whatever you want it to be. And you know my opinion on that. I think he will put the final nail in the show's coffin with such a move. Because, why bother watching this tripe if I can make up anything I like and be valid to the fanbase. In that case...Disheveled is what happened and I have no reason to watch Moff's juvenile attempts at time manipulation at all.

On anohter note, it is interesting to me how what was considered shocking when I wrote Disheveled...the bestial Doctor I have near the end...is now considered normal for the show canon. It is a given. Of course we should view the Doctor as a false god and as an evil monster later on. Funny that, considering how we were all so sure during the Sixth Doctor's reign that the Valeyard was lying about everything.

Perhaps you've heard this theory

[soophelia.livejournal.com]

Alex Kingston said (at a con? or in an interview) that Twelve is really River's Doctor.
http://itssonicokay.tumblr.com/post/50553449255/goodnightclaraxoxo-sorakachan-okay-ive

So I think John Hurt's character will actually be Nine thus making Nine Ten, Ten Eleven and Eleven (Matt Smith) would actually be Twelve. I would strangely be okay with this (especially if this meant never having to see River Song again. I love Alex Kingston since her ER days, but River Song just grates).

And I have a question I hope you can answer. Is a tie-in game considered canon too?
Because if so then according to http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/River_Song
River has met all the Doctors (but has not liked all of them).

"River had varying opinions of the Doctor's earlier selves. She didn't like the First, Second, Sixth, and Ninth Doctors; she got along with the Third, Eighth, and Tenth Doctors; and she remained somewhat neutral about the Fourth, Fifth, and Seventh Doctors, just voicing her shock at some of the traits they had. (GAME: The Eternity Clock)"
tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Eternity_Clock

And what do you think about the theory that Clara is the daughter of River Song and the Doctor?

Re: Perhaps you've heard this theory

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well, that seems to be sort of the same as an 8.5 theory. That is that Hurt is the missing time lord who pushed the button that created the Time War. This is lent some credence by Clara saying, "There are Eleven of you." As that counters the statement that we are viewing his ENTIRE time line in the TARDIS Tomb. If we are viewing the entire time line and Clara goes into it, surely she would see all of his regenerations. But, she might be inside him with questions, because we haven't seen all of him. So this is her looking ahead, to something that hasn't happened relative to her time line. Still, either way, Moff is meddling with the entire history of the Doctor...and he is the LAST man I would want to do that.

To answer your River Song question, I don't feel that games are canon. And books are not canon either. What shows on the show is canon. And what this shows is that Moff once again is simply copying an existing idea. He wants HIS fingerprints to be all over the Doctor. He wants to contradict the past and lay his emotional immaturity on the character from the beginning of that character's creation. I call that hubris. And Moff can't be gone fast enough for me. In fact, this little tidbit of information you've shared, has definitely made up my mind to stop watching Doctor Who after the anniversary. I shall write off the show as ruined by Moff.

When you no longer have a canon for a show...when anyone can write anything and have it given validity...then there is no reason at all to watch a show. Why? Because I can make up anything I like about it. This is what I have against AU stories. AU stories are not stories about the show, they are crippled original works. AU stories are stories by people who want to write original work but don't want to create an audience or characters of their own, so they piggyback on something original. In my opinion, it is a crutch. A crutch that I will grant you has helped some people to publish before they were quite ready. And, I have considered using that crutch myself...as it would make my original work easier to write.

However, what Moff has done, by inserting his characters into the very fabric of Doctor Who, is create an unstable structure for the entire universe. We are hanging our stories on an unstable framework. And it is already collapsing as more and more of the audience tries to make sense of the narrative maze Moff has created. The fact is it already makes no sense. It won't get better with more meddling. And it leaves those of us who had been breathing a little easier that his machinations were confined to one Doctor now dealing with him in every incarnation. It is narcissistic overreach. And that's why I don't like River, she's a narcissists dream woman.

Re: Perhaps you've heard this theory

[soophelia.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to hear that the games aren't considered canon. I don't like the thought that River has met every version of the Doctor. (I can't see Nine putting up with her "Spoilers!" and "Hello Sweetie" nonsense).

This is what I have against AU stories. AU stories are not stories about the show, they are crippled original works. AU stories are stories by people who want to write original work but don't want to create an audience or characters of their own, so they piggyback on something original. In my opinion, it is a crutch. A crutch that I will grant you has helped some people to publish before they were quite ready. And, I have considered using that crutch myself...as it would make my original work easier to write.

I love AU's in fanfiction, but not in Doctor Who (the show itself). I admit I've read Doctor Who (Doctor/Rose) au fics and loved them. Moffat thinks his "timey whimey" stories are complex and smart, but they're simplistic and boring. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and Fringe are great examples of media (books and a tv show) incorporating alternate universes into a narrative.

I don't plan on watching Doctor Who anymore (at least until a new showrunner comes along and I don't know if I'll care enough by then to watch Doctor Who).

Some people are speculating that Chris Chibnall will take over from Moffat.

Re: Perhaps you've heard this theory

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

It isn't that some AU stories are not interesting. I have read a couple that were quite good. But they rather cease to be Doctor Who stories when the Doctor is a bookshop owner and Rose is a traffic cop. If he's not a Time Lord called the Doctor...then he's not the Doctor, he's just some bloke who looks like David Tennant...or Chris Eccleston or Matt Smith.

And the problem with most writers who want you to "make up your own ending" or say "it can mean anything you want it to mean" is that they don't have any idea what they are doing. Moff is meticulous in his need to put every string he creates into his finale. He does keep track of things, unlike many head writers, but, when his final solutions are more a loose web than a tapestry and people have questions...he handwaves it all. So, his idea that Doctor Who has no canon, is just an excuse for him to screw up the timelines however he wants and then tell us that we can fix it all in fanfiction if we don't like it.

I think not watching is the best plan for anyone who doesn't like Moff's narcissistic "look at me" manipulations of the show. I am actually planning to write to the BBC and tell them that they've made a huge mistake in letting him tinker with the history of the show as he's just done. I hear they have hired him for S8. I don't know how he convinced them he has anything left in the tank. This season turned out to be very entertaining, but did not deliver much that was new in the end. He just trotted out River again and turned Clara into some childish reflection of Rose. Oh, yes, your idea is so much bigger, Mr. Moffatt...too bad nobody really likes it that much.

Yes, I don't think Nine or Ten would like River. Ten didn't like her. He felt sorry for her in the end, but he didn't like her. And because Matt's Doctor is such a cartoon, I can't tell if HE likes her either. He could simply be keeping his promise not to change anything...giving her lip service with his goodbyes. That's the problem with Moff's characters...no real emotions. Thinking back on Ten and Rose...and the "Does it need saying?" The fact is that it didn't need saying. Oh, she knows, he said. And I think she does know. One thing about Moff's narcissism, it allows me to believe that the Doctor now has nothing to believe in...since Rose went for Ten2. He has become a rather pathetic, self-centered character, with no real motivation other than self-aggrandizing. Pretty much not worth watching.

And, yes, I am in favor of correctly incorporated alternative universes. Fringe being a great example of that. I enjoyed the original alternatives that RTD put in Doctor Who...and as a seasoning to the canon...they were great...but Moff uses them as an excuse for doing whatever he wants to do...and so he's created an unstable narrative structure for the canon of the show. The show is going to collapse under this nonsense.

[bananasandroses.livejournal.com]

On the idea of Twelve being the last Doctor ... I've always wondered whether the manner of Nine's regeneration - its cause, anyhow - might have solved that problem.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

There you go, an easy answer. I think the limited regeneration issues has many easy answers. And so it will be easy to address when the times comes. Only fans with limited imaginations wring their hands over that one.

1. As you say...Bad Wolfed out of him.
2. It was always only a restriction imposed by the Time Lords and never a natural limitation--they did it to keep madness at bay, perhaps.
3. He was topped up for the Time War and now has an extra 8 to go...or he used up all his lives in the war...and was granted 13 new ones ala The Master.
4. He, like Rassilon, is immortal.
5. Or he figured out Rassilon's secret.
6. Or Rassilon gave him the answer or everyone the answer at the Time War, so that they could all continue indefinitely.
7. River gives him the answer, since she knows everything about him and his TARDIS and the universe.LOL

[develish1]

I'm still trying very hard to keep an open mind about the 50th, while not getting too excited because I expect to be disappointed if I do, lol, but....

You've hit on something I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere, and yet it's something both hubby and I agreed on immediately after watching the ep, and that's the fact that Hurt doesn't have to be a previous Doctor.

While inside his own time stream it's perfectly reasonable to think the Doctor knows not only all his own past, but his future too. That is after all part of why he's not meant to go there, right? The spoilers.

As for the Time War, we might know he ended it, and has been beating himself up about that ever since in various ways, and we know various bits about who took part in it etc, but so far we don't know for certain who/what started it, and it's certainly conceivable that it was the Valeyard who did this. Like you said, Time Wars don't have to happen linearly after all.

You prediction about how Moff might plan to use this as a rest sounds quite believable, but if he does go that route I suspect we'll get ZERO Ten/Rose and she'll be slotted into the time line somewhere else entirely since Nine is basically changed completely from current canon and therefore might never had even met Rose.

Given the complete lack of any (confirmed) pics of Rose during filming, despite there being quite a few of Ten, eleven and Clara etc, and the fact that the only pic of someone who claimed to be her body double in costume (which was immediately removed from twitter/tumblr, probably as a result of the BBC slapping someone's wrists) showed said costume to be nothing at all like anything Rose ever wore before, seems to support that theory.

Oh well, we only have 6 more month to wait, right?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I do not have high hopes for Rose now that I've seen the finale. I suppose, I don't feel as everyone else does that Moff hates Rose. I think he likes River, because she's the sort of woman he admires...entertaining, sexual, cheeky, no trouble, cares more for her man than herself. She is the ideal companion for a complete narcissist, never any trouble and with a limited personality beyond being his squeeze. And there we have what bothers me about River from the beginning. She arrives in the library complete...saucy and sexy and teasing him about how much she knows about him...and how special she is to him. But, we don't know anything about her beyond her ties to him. She is defined by being "The Doctor's Wife."

Compare that to Rose, who really had an entire existence beyond the Doctor that was seen to rival any interest she might have in him. She wanted to stay with her boyfriend, visit her mother, etc. And she took an interest in the Doctor and the things he showed her. She wasn't all..."Look at me. Find me fascinating." She was interesting, because she had a real, non-Doctor oriented personality. And I think as she began to focus on the Doctor more exclusively in S2, people lost some interest in her. But I don't feel that Rose ever lost her independence. She simply included the Doctor in her life. And he blossomed within that inclusion...if you ask me...that's why Ten is so beloved. Not just because David was great, but because David's Doctor REALLY loved someone, cared about people in a genuine fashion. Even at the end, when he leaves Rose...he doesn't NOT care about her. That was the interpretation some people put on it...but he definitely says "He needs you and that is very me." Which means...he still needed Rose when he left. And he says pretty much the same thing to Wilf in the finale.

Anyway, enough of my usual rants...I don't expect much Ten/Rose in the finale. I expect Ten and Eleven to interact. And Rose to make a short cameo, perhaps with Clara. Perhaps even as an extension of the TARDIS like in HIDE this season. The TARDIS said she can interface with a projection of any person in her database. Perhaps she will chose to use Rose as her interface so that Moff can say Clara is like Rose. Or, perhaps, if the Doctor's time line is reset...yes...Rose will live out another life and we shall see that.

Rae
who in some ways is dreading this enough not to be worried that it is 6 months away.

[develish1]

To be honest I think I'd prefer not to get any Ten/Rose in the 50th, mainly because I don't think for a second Moff could do either Rose's character, or her relationship with Ten, the justice it deserves.

As for dreading it, I fluctuate between dread and apathy most days