Doctor Who: The Name of the Doctor

[rabid1st]

Okay, let's just tell you there will be spoilers and go on from there...

I'm here to give the devil his due. And to throw down the gauntlet of defeat. Moff has had his way with Doctor Who. I can no longer hold out any hope that Eleven, at least, doesn't love River Song. Nor can I excuse the Doctor's treatment of Rose Tyler. Moff has successfully defined the Doctor as a perpetual child, learning to love and accept limits and such. So be it. I can't claim this episode wasn't well done. It was timey-wimey and that's still very annoying. Very, very annoying. Because nothing is real, there are no emotional consequences. But it made sense and, while it did over reach by a long way (so much over reach that I get a cramp in my shoulder just watching it) still, it held together in the end.

There is still no emotional connection to Moff's character for me. I didn't cry over Clara's sacrifice. And I don't believe it will be a REAL sacrifice either. Just like Jennie didn't have a real death. And this will not be the Doctor's final resting place after all. Moff's clever saves tend to, as I've said before, rob his high moments of any deeper meaning. I yelled "Oh, No!" when Jennie died. But then she was back and all better. We didn't hear the name, River thought it, because she knows it, because she's special. I think the River/Doctor people should be pleased with that kiss, even if River is really dead and only her echo lives on...it's a nice echo and it got confirmation that he loved her, so yay for River and her fans. I do hope Moff's put her to bed at last, given that was the best ending she could ever hope for from him.

Though, of course, it does stand out for me that this was only a copy of River and so, if it is reflecting her true personality at the end, she died not knowing if he ever really loved her. And confirming he does for her echo only satisfies her fans and does nothing at all to alleviate the sad state of her life. Le Sigh! Oh, how I wish none of this were real. How I wish that we could go back to Ten 2 and reset it all so that the Doctor was mature and not a monster, but a force of hope and goodness and deeper emotional resonance.

I did notice that Rose did not appear in this episode. Well, no companions did, but Susan and River and Clara. And I think Moff was trying to put Rose in her place with the love declaration for River. So, we shouldn't hold out any hope for Rose/Doctor in the special. But, we do know Billie is IN the special, and I have to wonder how and why she is in it. My forelorn hope is that Bad Wolf Rose reappears bouncing off of the fact that Clara is using Rose's mojo after all. Rose did it first...keeping the Doctor safe, by creating herself across time and space. And the Doctor is obviously on the wrong path. But I don't have much hope for Rose saving the day, because Moff has no idea that he's screwed up the Doctor or set him on the wrong path. So, Rose has Ten 2 and that's that. I think we are looking at some sort of Matrix style virtual reality battle with the Valeyard for the Anniversary. And we will get some sort of echo of Ten and Rose as John Hurt and Eleven battle it out for mastery of the time streams, but I'm not holding my breath for the reset I would like to see.

I wish I cared more, to be honest. But I'm okay with whatever happens at this point. Moff has sort of ruined Doctor Who for me. It almost truly has no canon left. And I just don't like his Doctor...the Beast that destroyed worlds...or the Lonely God...or the perpetual child. Moff is way too proud of this selfish, grandious Doctor for any change of heart to come to pass. Instead, John Hurt's Valeyard will be defeated somehow, with timey-wimey tech and smirking. Clara will be saved. Everything will reset at the end. I really wish she had died for real, because I might have felt something other than a slight resentment of her usurping of all the other companion roles. But Moff won't allow any messy emotional ends. He really is more of a fantasy person than any other writer. He can't bear to have real emotions play out in real time. Jennie dying was beautiful. And then...meaningless. Everything Moff writes must be the most epic thing ever, but none of it is real. That is his great weakness.

But you can't fault him on storyline continuity, despite his convoluted, save everyone plotting, he turned in a good story. It made sense that Clara was a fragmented soul in time and space, recreated over and over again. And I liked how his solution took me by surprise. To clarify, I wasn't surprised within the episode, by amazing twists or turns in the plot or anything like that. But I was surprised that this was the solution to the mystery of Clara. Of course, we long time viewers might ask how we missed her all this time? But why bother fitting it all together...Moff's universe morphs into a new one every season. That is his answer. He's already told us...time can be rewritten. And it will be rewritten again for the anniversary.

This episode was nicely epic. I think John Hurt is the Valeyard, now that he's been mentioned by name. And it is high time he showed up, too. I know. I know. I've promised you the Valeyard before, but this time it really is him. He's a proper villian for the anniversary. Also, it is John Hurt. And I can see them resetting the number of regenerations that are possible off this one. So, in the end the Doctor has more regenerations and another burial place. Thus, we are looking forward as well as back. Honoring that one point where we know the Doctor went wrong. I can still hope that it will turn out that the Valeyard was right and the Doctor needed to be stopped. I can hope that he learns to take up beekeeping before he does too much damage. He could go to Rose. She could make him fully better.

But, I know for sure, that will not be Moff's end view. Moff doesn't have a real epic mind. So he will have his victorious, childish Doctor reset it all to happy, peppy Eleven and Clara. And that will be all she wrote in the anniversary special. It will be big, fun and wrap up in a nice, neat bow. It will have Ten in it and the Valeyard is the proper enemy. So, I probably won't hate it.

Oh, speaking of former Doctors...called it on the CGI magic...not that it was a reach to call it. That was definitely the way to go now that we have the technology. We no longer need to put the older Tom Baker in a corset and floppy wig. And it gave me a lovely lift to see them all looking like themselves. Except, I really didn't like the floaty clip they used for Five. I've always hated that clip and it is far too easy to place it as well. Though I suppose we were supposed to place it.

I didn't talk about last week's episode, which I also enjoyed. I wasn't as fond of Clara in a more traditional companion role, but I didn't hate her. And I should mention that Matt has turned in a far more nuanced performances this entire season than in the rest of his run. I believe he is the Doctor, now, except, for what comes out of his mouth sometimes. He does a fine job in this episode. And I quite enjoyed his back and forth with the Cyber Planner in the last episode. When it started, I hated the idea...thought it was childish and lame...but Matt did better as it went along and finally sold me on his acting chops. So, good on Matt for being loads more Doctorish this season. I think he must have reviewed lots of Old School episodes to prepare and realized that he needed more depth of character, or something.

Comments

[glory_jean]

I agree with most of what you said and disagree at the same time. ;)

1) I think Matt has always been capable of being a good Doctor,(The Doctor's Wife proved that to me). But his scripts - argh. I'm starting to look back on some of Six's eps with fondness.

2) I didn't find this ep surprising at all. As soon as I saw the opening teaser I suspected, when I saw the Doctor's time stream, I knew the "Secret". And this is sad because, counting this one, I've seen only three of Clara's eps. I think it was because I feel I've .read all this somewhere before. (Padawanpooh should be demanding her writing credit at this point.)

3) I too am so relieved to hear the Valyard mentioned. I saw an incoherent reference spoiler that Hurt was playing a "lost regeneration." So I now understand completely why this NewWho fan was baffled and I'm also convinced Hurt is the Valyard. Especially with him doing the dark figure in the shadows routine. It just screams Valyard. And I can live with that.

4)I have a new theory what Moff means when he says he's an old school fan. "Gee, I really liked the Sixth Doctor era, we need more of that." Seriously, it would explain so much. And now with the Valyard? Proof positive I'd say. ;)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I shall allow you the first point. Because it is possible that Matt is being held back by circumstance or ridiculous writing. He's certainly been very consistent this season.

But...2? I say, with all due respect and kindness...knowing at the teaser doesn't count. We all knew at the teaser. I meant, I didn't suspect a few episodes ago that they would use the scattered through time thing again. Of a real girl and all. I didn't know, from say..."Asylum of the Daleks." Though she had obviously been repeated through time, somehow, I had imagined Clara would be something more inventive and new. And yet, it was an okay surprise that they went with the Doctor's time stream as the methodology and she was just a regular girl. On seeing the time stream, of course, it becomes obvious it would be used this way. Thus linking her to the Doctor. I'm okay with that answer to the mystery of Clara.

Moff, as I've said many times, doesn't do startling revelations in his finales, ever, he always foreshadows his moves well in advance. But this time, there were other answers possible all along, and yet this answer makes perfect sense. So, that's okay continuity...a nice surprise, you see? I also like that this episode wasn't full of grandiose nonsense like Moff's last two finales. He didn't throw everything at us in a blur of spaghetti hitting the wall. He did throw in the Doctor's name, his grave, the TARDIS ending, the Great Intelligence and that Victorian bloke and River and Whisper Men and the Victorian Three and psychic communication and The Valeyard, but he didn't have a pile of loose threads at the end. It was neater at the end than I'm used to from him. A nice surprise.

#3...if John Hurt isn't the Valeyard I will be genuinely surprised. And also disappointed.

#4...yes, that could well be it. Certainly Matt's clownish performances (nuanced perhaps, but hardly enjoyable viewing for me) most closely resembles Six. I have thought of going back myself and looking at Six again to see if I like him better the second time around.

[glory_jean]

2) Okay - maybe I'm overstating my plot divining genius. ;) But the only Clara eps I've seen are the Dalek one, last week's cyber one, and The Name of the Doctor. And I only half watched the first two because I'm so weary of disappointment. If my son hadn't dragged me over to my mother's the last two saturdays (we are cable cutters) I wouldn't have seen them at all. (I admit I wanted to see tonight's though.) I also have read no spoilers or meta aside from what I gleaned from skimming past tumblr macros. This week I saw more "spoilers" related to what people hoped wouldn't be spoiled from the DVD release than anything else.

I'm glad to hear Moff has been more restrained this season since I will probably end up seeing all the Eleven eps we have missed over the years. (My son has put his foot down and declared an end to my lassie fair viewing. ;) There will be quality time with my mother's DVR)


4)I've been meaning to have a Six rewatch. I know my son would love that.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I did just watch some of The Two Doctors recently and didn't hate Six as much as I remembered hating him. But I did find that episode to be complete crap, so, I'm not sure how I would feel. Still, I think it is a good idea to go back and watch the Trial of a Time Lord again. Didn't they just release it on DVD?

Moff was definitely more restrained this season, and it helped his nonsense go down easier. Until I started listing all of the bits he threw into the finale, I hadn't realized he had thrown all of that in...unlike the Panopticon or Wedding of River Song episodes where many random people just zip by with the sketchiest of reasoning...this time we had a sort of enemy in the Great Intelligence...who motivated Clara...who had always been there, but wasn't quite remembered, because she was so insignificant to him. So, it made some sense overall. Though, the Victorian Three were a little out of place and River was very much out of place, though I can see how she went to the whole "insignificance of all humans" point Moff was making.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh, and #2...I am glad I didn't hurt your feelings, because it did strike me as funny when you said you could tell at the teaser. Rather like saying, "I could tell he had a rabbit in his hat, as soon as he pulled the rabbit out."

I, too, avoid spoilers, as much as possible. Though, sometimes, I will pull something off of my David Tennant or Billie Piper feed. Both of them in the anniversary was one of those inadvertent spoilers for me, as they came in headlines. But, I don't know what DVD release you are talking about...re: spoilers. The future DVD release of this season...and spoilers for the anniversary special?

I admire your cable cutting, btw. I barely watch TV now. Though some things that I love are hard to get...like Chopped from the food network. And Psych is very hard to come by, too. My BBC America fixes come from my sister, as we do not have those channels at my house.

[akumakoronso.livejournal.com]

I screamed at the projector screen when the episode was finished, "UNSATISFIED!" cuz my friends and I went all out and watched in hi-def on a projector screen in a conference room with pizza and soda. :)

Good times.

But really, totally unsatisfied, and I had a grimace on my face at the River parts and had to keep myself from throwing up.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I sort of grimaced over River. But, I've felt so sorry for her for so long that I didn't really care much this time. I did sort of resign myself to Moff never doing Rose or the Doctor justice though.

The John Hurt is the Doctor business doesn't bother me. None of this bothers me really. I no longer care so much. It is Doctor Who lite. And it checked all the boxes.

It offered a neat solution to the problem of Clara that, yes, leaves us less than satisfied...mostly because it isn't as clever as Moff thinks it is. And also because it gives us a continuity problem that goes across the seasons. And, also, Moff has to top everyone else. He always promises much more than he can deliver, given that most of the fandom is far smart than he is and will have come up with some genuine genius-y stuff. But, his solutions always work within his storylines. And this one wasn't bad for Moff. It had a lot of stuff in it, but...it got the job done much more effectively than his other two finales did.

[yumimum.livejournal.com]

I've come to realise over the past few weeks that apathy is my friend. I watched this ep and didn't hate it, but at the end I was just kinda... meh. Tumblr exploded, and I just wasn't that bothered anymore. Yes, there were things that annoyed me (surely a strange girl telling you which tardis to steal would stick in a guys mind) but I think I'm finally at a point that whatever else Moff screws up, I'll be able to shrug it off and retreat to fanfic.

I can't believe I just wrote that. :(

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

You know, I said somewhere before, that while I don't believe that canon is "whatever the fans make up"...in the case of Doctor Who, I think Moff has screwed with the time lines enough to make me honestly believe this is the one show where you can retreat to fanfic. Anything could happen now in Doctor Who, which is a terrible thing to do to a show, because it makes the canon irrelevant...which makes the source of the fandom itself...irrelevant. But, I think Moff has succeeded in doing that to Doctor Who.

We know for sure that any future head writer could rewrite all of the Doctor's history and meaning, just as Moff has done. So, why can't we just write anything we like and call it alternative canon? How about an episode where the Doctor has always been a postman and he meets Rose who works in a sweet's shop and they have a life together...before he goes back to being a Time Lord?

Sheesh! What a mess! But, as you say, apathy is the way to go. I honestly was not very upset about the whole River thing, other than to curse RTD for not having the courage of his convictions...which is nothing new for me, really. LOL

[susanb03.livejournal.com]

"Except, I really didn't like the floaty clip they used for Five. I've always hated that clip and it" I recognized it but not sure from where.

And to comment on above...'We know for sure that any future head writer could rewrite all of the Doctor's history and meaning, just as Moff has done"---they did it with Star Trek...why not.... sigh

[karie22.livejournal.com]

I knew better than to let myself think for one second that Moff would deliver on anything he promised, and I deserve a swift kick for doing so.

I said all along that they were putting too much emphasis on the name, and it would be a let down, unless they put the emphasis on WHY the name was a secret, and not the name itself. So I'm glad they did that. But it was still a lot of ridiculous build up about "What's his name?" for them to not tell us. I hope Clara remembers it and lets it slip, just so the teasing can finally be put to rest. Because, honestly, I DON'T CARE what his name is, but I'm sick to death of being taunted with it.

I really, really, really could have done without that overdone kiss. But my bratty, child in-a-snit mind is looking at it like this: All of that was largely for show on the Doctor's part to give River a nice send off so she would finally Go. The fuck. Away. and stop haunting him. Do I really believe that? No. But it helps quell the rage a little bit. I just hope this is the end of her. I don't hate River, really I don't... if she'd been separate from this whole badly written, beaten-to-death Doctor's Wife plot, I really could have loved her. As it stands, I hope we never see or hear mention of her again. I don't for a second believe she was the great love of his life. The Doctor has been married before and he's been in love before, and he's lost and been forced to move on before. I don't expect him to spend eternity pining over River Song. (As long as Moff will GTFO soon.) Especially when, by the Doctor's admission, the events of the Library happened "a long time ago" and so he's already been moving on. Or, at least he would have if she hadn't been hanging around. I still would like to know how the fuck a data ghost managed to get out of the library server and just travel around wherever she wanted.

About Rose... I try not to let the River thing diminish my view on the Doctor and Rose. I know he loved her, he proved it over and over again, no matter what Moff tried to do to diminish that. I just keep in mind that, by this time in the Doctor's life, it's been several hundred years since he left Rose and Handy on that beach, and I'm sure he had plenty of time over at least the first 50 or so to torture himself with thoughts on all the happy sex they were probably having. I'm sure there is still a part of him that loves her and if she should pop back up tomorrow and say "Hey, turns out Bad Wolf made me immortal and I came back to be with you" he wouldn't hesitate to go to her, and all those old feelings would return. The heart has a way of wrapping a bandage around the wound when we lose someone, but it doesn't mean we stop loving them. We just have to wall them off a little bit, so it doesn't hurt so very much. If there is one thing the Doctor has learned over 1,200 years of pain and loss, it's how to survive it.

****Le sigh, post too long, will continue below****

[karie22.livejournal.com]

I'm actually not in the John-Hurt-is-the-Valeyard camp. It seems the fandom is split about 50/50 on that. I think he's going to turn out to be a past Doctor, most likely Time War Doctor, a regeneration that we didn't know about. I think the Doctor did something to unmake him from history or something (why Clara never saw him) because he's so ashamed. He's talked before (the Beast Below) about how, if he had to do something particularly awful, he would have to come up with a new name for himself, because he wouldn't be the Doctor anymore. Last night he elaborated on how his name was his promise, and JH was the one who broke that promise. JH said (and he sounded remorseful to me, so I don't see him as being an evil force) that what he did, he did without choice (and the Doctor agreed, "I know", which again, makes me think it was something that JH was forced to do, and not something he did because he turned bad), and in the name of peace and sanity. The Doctor said,"But NOT in the name of the Doctor!" I think, because what he had to do was so bad, and so shameful to the Doctor, that he couldn't bare to live with it and regenerated himself into Nine (who technically wasn't actually Nine) and did something (probably against the laws of Time, but since the Time Lords were dead, who was there to stop him?) to hide him away forever.

There is also a theory that he might be a pre-One Doctor, either the actual first one before he regenerated into William Hartnell, or the William Hartnell Doctor in his younger years before he aged (if he really was the first and grew from a child) into William Hartnell. And we actually know from canon that the Time Lords could be awarded (or could possibly steal) more regenerations, so what if our Doctor's Eleven lives is actually a second set or regenerations, and he actually lived maybe even 13 other lives before he became William Hartnell?

There are a lot of equally speculative but equally interesting theories out there. I just hope Moff doesn't screw it up.

There I go again, hoping. Quick, someone kick me.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well, see? The Valeyard turns out not to be EVIL in the RTD world. The Valeyard is seen as the enemy and evil because he tries to stop the Doctor in Trial of a Time Lord. But, if we look at him with hindsight...he was completely right. The Doctor did destroy Gallifrey. And he would be the Beast inside the Doctor...a creature of regret by this time. If the Matrix was spared and put into the TARDIS somehow, then the Valeyard would be taken with it.

The idea of The Other, the Doctor before the Doctor, is very book canon. If RTD were writing this, I would be in favor of that one. But, I really can't see Moff leaving the Valeyard sit out there in canon without some explanation. Still, he does like to recast every nuance of the Doctor, so you could be right and this is just some other forgotten regeneration. I wonder what he would mean to do with at Time Lord Doctor, though? How that would play out in a story? Do you think Moff intends to undo the Time War losses? "Or just confront the Doctor's psyche in a way that doesn't address the Valeyard?

I admit, I've called for the Valeyard many times and it is still too soon for him. With Matt staying on, as it appears he will do, it could be years before we even have Twelve...and then it will be Thirteen that really has to fight this battle. So, perhaps the other 50 percent are right. But, really, it would make a better story, a nice dividing line story...if Hurt were the Valeyard.

As for the 13 regeneration thing, yeah, there are lots of ways already in canon to get around that issue. It isn't something they need to make a big deal out of, despite what some fans say. As you note, and I've noted, the Time Lords granted/offered a new set of regenerations...so it could easily be that the Doctor is on a second or third set, or that any previous laws are not applicable...or that he is like Rassilon and already knows the secret to eternal lives. But, the anniversary is still an nice time to address all of this, so hopefully Moff is thinking along those lines.

Kick's myself. And then you. :grin:

[karie22.livejournal.com]

See, this is why I really need to find the time to go back and watch all of Classic Who. BUT OH MY GOD, THE THOUGHT OF IT IS EXHAUSTING. SO MUCH, I JUST CAN'T. *Faints*

I hope he's not going to undo the Time War. Ten and the Master went to a lot of trouble (including the Master sacrificing himself) to keep them in the Time Lock, so obviously there's a good reason for them to stay trapped there.

There are SO many possibilities for how the Doctor could have more than two regenerations left. I just wish they would come out and pick one and make it canon already. Then again, with Moff at the wheel, it's probably best if they wait and let the next show runner tackle that one.

I've always wondered about the fact that River used all of her remaining regenerations to save Eleven. Does that mean he has all of those regenerations now? Or did they get burned up in healing him of the poison or something?

Oh well, good luck waiting on an explanation of that from Moffat. :-/

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Again, I need to clarify. I don't think the Doctor didn't love Rose. That will never be my position. I agree that he has had centuries to reconcile himself to what he did in JE. And he probably felt he was giving her a better man than himself. The kiss convincing him that Rose would go on. I feel, even, that River got her way because, unlike Rose she kept hammering the Doctor and clinging.

What I'm saying is that Moff got his companion the canon tells that RTD refused to give Rose. So, all we can count on in canon now is that Moff also helps out Rose in the anniversary special...or that one of us gets the keys to the car someday and puts this whole "He can't say he loves anyone, because he's an emotional child," thing to bed forever. Like if immortal Rose shows up in the end, or something, yes!

I totally feel you are right about River being too clingy for words. I mean, haunting him? Really? For all this time...? Because of what he does to her in the library, apparently! So, he really has no choice but to play along with her sad delusions. But, Moff still does allow her the sop to her feelings that Rose was denied. In a way, this makes me love Rose more...because I know she will need to remain true to him without having him indulge her like that. So, to me, all of this underscores how truly pathetic poor River is, but pathetic or not, she got the scene that Rose was denied.

So...good for her fans and her. And good for Moff...I wish RTD had been so pigheaded.

[karie22.livejournal.com]

OK, I'm with you now. I agree, Rose did get shafted in a way that River has been positively showered, and it's sickening to me.

While it was a bit sad, I found it quite selfish that River was hanging around. Even if she thought he couldn't see or hear her, I'm sure she had to wonder if he sensed her. And if she supposedly knows him so well, she should have known that that would have been painful for him. (Although, I do understand her point a bit, given that, the last time she saw him, he knew she was going to her death/the data stream, and she didn't, and then he never came back to see her data ghost to say goodbye, so she never got any kind of closure. But still, it was quite unkind of her to hang around. Again, if she knew him so well, she should have known exactly why he didn't say goodbye, and why he never could.)

But then, I've also always thought it was cruel of the Doctor to save her to that data stream just so he could feel like he'd preserved her life somehow. What an awful way to be trapped for eternity. It would have been more kind to let her go in peace.

I'm also confused by the fact that he was talking about how she's a data ghost and should have faded by now. Wasn't the point of him saving her to the library that she would live on there forever, with Dave and Miss Evangilista, etc.? I wish Moff would pay attention to his own gosh damn canon.

Petty and mean girl truth time: I've often wished, while re-watching FotD, that Ten had tripped on his run and dropped that damn screwdriver over the side of the building.

Also, why the hell was Tomb River corporeal to the Doctor? That made absolutely no sense, and was obviously just a cheap trick so they could fit that kiss in there. UGH.

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

I honestly don't know why I'm still watching Doctor Who at this point - I'm pretty sure I'll be done after the Anniversary. I don't really care about any of the characters but I'm not quite hate-watching yet.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I may well be done at the Anniversary, too. I don't expect the show is going to surprise me much in the long run if Moff and Matt are staying on with it. I had hoped they would both go and Clara could stay and we might see something new. But...no...

So, I want to see Ten again, I don't expect I will see much that will please or surprise me. I am not even excited that we might see the Valeyard, because I doubt I will be pleased with the sketchy storyline that Moff delivers. Still...seeing David and Billie again will hopefully be pleasant. Though, I know that Moff could make it very nauseating for me. And if he is doing fantasy scenarios...which he probably will be doing, given the few spoiler pics I've seen...then...our view of Rose might be quite alarming indeed.

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

That makes me sad. I generally stay away from spoilers, but I just really really don't want to watch Moff totally screw us all over and the fact that Eccleston wanted nothing to do with it makes me extra nervous to begin with.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I think there is evidence for what people are calling for all over the web...a Time War Doctor...and that would be something Eccleston would want no part of...a whitewash of all that he delivered in his season. There is no Time War Doctor, as far as we know, but Moff could easily invent one. And...use him to whitewash what happened in the early part of New Who. Basically, it is possible that Moff will distance his Doctor from any emotional baggage by claiming there was someone else who pushed the button on Gallifrey. I do hope this isn't the case. Of course, he could use the Valeyard for that...since the Valeyard was on Gallifrey. And he seems to me to be the sort of person who would push a button. Though, he was against said pushing in earlier episodes.

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

Yeah - I've seen that theory floating around on tumblr and honestly that will make me rage quit Doctor Who. Because Nine is my Doctor and even though I wasn't really a fan of Tennant and RTD's farewell indulgence specials rewriting the Doctor's history to wipe away all the consequences and responsibility will be my final straw with Moff and his need to put his grubby fingerprints all over everything.

I've left shows before over the lack of long term character growth and consequences. I'll be sad to do it again but maybe having this push will be for the best.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well, there you have put your finger right on it. Moff has dedicated himself to having no character growth for the Doctor. And, to be fair, once again, it is RTD that started that with JE. Once you say that in canon...that the character is incapable of doing something that an ordinary person would be capable of doing...you have sounded the death knell of your show. There was no reason the Doctor couldn't have gone with Rose...as he does with River...of camera...except that RTD didn't write it that way. But worse, RTD wrote it in such a way that future writers had to justify the Doctor's very odd behavior on that beach.

Moff, to his credit, hasn't justified it with "The Doctor can't love" but...his conclusion...that the Doctor is an eternal child and emotional cripple...isn't very satisfying to an audience either. It leaves lots of room for growth...but still defines the Doctor is very unheroic terms. And since he IS our hero...it makes him harder and harder to watch as time goes on...the audience loses patience with him. And we can see by the ratings that this is happening...this is the lowest rates Season of New Who since it began. I do imagine the numbers will shoot up for the Anniversary though...because Billie coming back in for Stolen Earth and JE shot those numbers through the roof.

People wanted a happy...and Moff would be a fool not to give them one now. But...he is probably a fool, judging by all the other things he's done to this once noble character.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Also, re: The Extra-Doctor Theory

It would be a slap in the face for Nine, who does a magnificent job being the Doctor. I go on about Ten, who is my favorite Doctor, but that isn't really anything against Chris or Nine. I feel that Nine did a fantastic job, playing a man who had done something terrible...or followed up on something terrible, at least. I felt that Eight died doing whatever it was that sealed off Gallifrey and then Nine was there to mop up in the war. But, I suppose there could have been other Doctors that were born and died on the battlefield.

Clara is the first person within the show to refer to Eleven as Eleven, I think. I don't think Nine or Ten addressed their regeneration number.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

I've only watched it through once and I'm still processing it. I actually thought it was the best thing Moff has written, the one he's been short-changing all the other episodes lately to work on and get right. His manifesto, if you will. That proves to me that he doesn't make a very good showrunner - I've always felt he didn't do the teamwork and managing people thing well at all, and the turnover of staff in his tenure reflects that.

I don't take any of it very seriously anymore, but I liked the idea of a time traveller never visiting his own grave, for obvious reasons, and I thought is was developed pretty well. Matt has far more emotional range than the scripts he gets given allow him to explore and that's a great pity. The moment when he realised he'd have to go to Trenzalore was beautifully done.

Clara is the weakest link for me. Looking at that retroactive saving in any detail, it will soon fall apart. She's quite nice, but like River never really gels for me. She's there to represent something, not to be a real person.j

As for the last reveal, well it opens up an interesting can of worms and it was really well done. Maybe the POTB of Gallifrey actually forced the Doctor to do it, and that's why he says it wasn't in his name? Or it could all be very Jungian, shadow self and all that. I'm mildly intrigued, and I hope to see Ten and Rose defeat it by cancelling out the badness with cupcakes, rainbows, kittens and unicorns.

Surely you can't seriously be trying to tie in with canon now? That way, madness lies.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh, I can still tie I&B into canon at this point.

Though post Anniversary, I believe all points of view will be valid. They are technically valid now, I think. Because we just saw the whole time line altered. Of course, you might be surprised at what I'm going to do in I&B to set it all right again. LOL

I do feel that you are right about Clara. She has lost her appeal rather quicly. Again, Moff made no effort to develop real character...for her, and her mystery isn't that interesting now.

I see you are on the extra regeneration team. I am, as I have always been, on Team Valeyard. The Valeyard exists in the past and needs to be addressed in the future. How he's addressed remains to be seen, but to not address him is just to waste a good story, especially as RTD made his predictions come true. The Doctor did indeed go dark and destroy Gallifrey.

Bring on ponies, kittens and rainbows.

[bananasandroses.livejournal.com]

I haven't watched, mainly because I am at the point where I can't stand either Moffat or Eleven, but the spoilers I have seen in the reviews of this episode have me thinking that the Wolf might well have had a hand in Clara's creation.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well, they use a lot of lines from Parting of the Ways in this episode. But that could just be because Moff doesn't have much in the way of original ideas...and he's just copying the most romantic Doctor Who moment he's ever seen. I wouldn't put a lot of faith in it.

I suppose I just don't think Moff is going to deliver anything close to spectacular for the anniversary despite his claims and David and Billie on standby. I am slightly encouraged by the information that Billie was in Cardiff for a week. That seems to make her role larger than a cameo. I would love to see Eleven explain her to River. I don't think he's told River about Rose. But I don't believe that is anything to do with River being special. I think, having settled Rose with Ten 2, the Doctor fears he's lost her. I don't think he's even slightly happy about losing her, given his reactions in End of Time...and even Let's Kill Hitler.

[bohemianrose24.livejournal.com]

So I have a lot of thoughts on the finale, though I am still not sure how I feel about it overall. Matt Smith has definitely come a long way. But I don't understand why the Doctor even has a tomb. I thought, as demonstrated in The Last of the Time Lords, that Time Lords burn their dead. I mean, it's possible, with the Doctor being the last, there wouldn't have been anyone to do it for him, but it's just odd. Also, if that's what happens when a Time Lord dies, wouldn't there be thousands of similar situations out in the universe, where anyone could go and mess with history by meddling in a deceased Time Lord's timeline? And even if that only happens with a particularly experienced time traveler, there might have been one out there for the Master, or the Corsair, or even the Rani; any of the rebels who were out there actually living in the universe. Unless that's all locked up with the Time War. Sorry, I had a real issue with that part, and maybe that's not really a thing - my knowledge of and experience with Old Who is spotty, at best.

Then there was the River thing. I know they addressed it in the episode, but why would he have not immediately dismissed her monument, or deduced what it really was? It's not like he wasn't married before (so why would only her monument be with his tomb), or that he doesn't know she died at the Library. And I don't even hate River the way I used to, but she has these moments where I really just dislike her character so much. The kiss was unnecessary, though I will go with the theory that he was trying to get her to let go. And I still can't understand how Moffat can claim Rose was clingy when he invented River, who held the universe hostage to make the Doctor marry her even though he literally said he didn't want to. And has for hundreds of years taken advantage of psychic links to hang on to him after death.

As for Clara, I was satisfied with the explanation they gave for her popping up in the Doctor's timeline. I think the only reason he really saw her and remembered her recently was because this was when he was supposed to meet her. Sometimes, when things like this happen though, there's still a part of me that wonders if the easiest explanation was that the Bad Wolf saw all of this, and arranged it because her prime directive was keeping the Doctor safe.

But the real point of my post, I suppose, is my thought on the JH Doctor. Primarily, I suspect he is either the Valeyard (especially since he was finally mentioned by name, even though it's too soon), or based on rumors some version between 8 and 9/8.5. But I had a thought - what if he was 10.5? I know he went off into the other universe with Rose. But after what he did to the Daleks (which he claimed was justified though 10 disagreed), and 10 telling Rose he was like 9, and how he could have aged, it just seems like a possibility to me. It would also explain why it's 10 and Rose in the special. They were responsible for him. But I recognize that that's probably just some kind of wishful thinking. I'm sure the real explanation will be far less interesting than any of that.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Did you ever read my partial story, "Like Gum on Your Shoe?" I ask because I had this sort of apocalypse idea coming out of 10.5 being mad and bad and aging and such. Of course, the Valeyard might also age. The Doctor might age, actually, given what we see in Last of the Time Lords. But mostly, we have seen him as an elderly codger twice over...so he could look that way easily enough.

Frankly, if Moff invents some new evil, it would be typical of him, but a real wasted opportunity. The Valeyard must appear some time...why not now. I do wonder if this idea that there are past regenerations hidden from Clara and us was started by the production team so that we don't think Valeyard straight off. Or so they can play with the time line and make Eleven, be Twelve. Since the Valeyard is supposed to come between Twelve and Thirteen. However, he is expected though, so Eleven would certainly recognize him.

[bohemianrose24.livejournal.com]

I have read that one, and actually I think of it every once in a while because it would have been an interesting route to take. I think that was kind of what informed my idea about JH being 10.5.

The other thing I was thinking about the Valeyard is that, and this is probably giving Moffat more credit than he deserves, but what if the whole reason they have been stressing that time can be rewritten, and then actually rewriting it, is because that's what starts the downward spiral? The Doctor is playing with the very fabric of the universe when he does that. More than other people setting him up as a god, or anyone referring to him (or at least 10) as "the lonely god", the Doctor is actually making himself a god by rewriting time to his idea of what should have happened. I feel like that's the sort of behavior 10 was so afraid of after WoM. When was the last time we had a reference to a fixed point in time? Was it Amy and Rory's "death"? Eleven went particularly dark after that. What if, without realizing it, he's slowly letting go of the rules he has set for himself to keep from becoming the version of himself that causes the Valeyard? That could be why 11 seemed so afraid.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I have wondered all along if Moff intended to go here, to the Valeyard...assuming that is where he is going...then we would need to make the Doctor a darker, Godlike figure...careless and unaware of his impact on others. I don't see the Valeyard as pure evil...not now that we know that Gallifrey was destroyed. Six was sure that the Valeyard was lying, but he wasn't. So, perhaps he really does represent an attempt by the Doctor to change his own time line for the better.

This, again, would explain why the woman in white declared there is still time to Save The Doctor...apropos of nothing in End of Time.

[bohemianrose24.livejournal.com]

One thing I realized did bother me about Clara, was that how is someone who has seemingly had zero experience with regeneration, and hasn't even been told about it from what I can remember, not even a little bit surprised by the concept that there are multiple versions of the Doctor?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

The main problem with Clara is the problem that haunts all of Moff's characters. She is a fixture of his plot. He doesn't think of her in any other way. And I'd hoped that she had some..reason to exist that went beyond the service to Moff's plot. But in the end, she didn't. I mean, since her whole reason to exist was to be a mystery...and then...she fulfills that mystery...why should we, or the Doctor, continue to care about her? I suppose because she commits this sacrifice for him, but...she is rather a self-fulfilling prophecy...like River, sadly.

Anyway, I think the answer to your question lies in her advent into his time stream. Once she went in, she knew him in his many reincarnations. That's what she is telling us in the teaser, that she doesn't know who she is or where she is...she just knows that she has to save the Doctor. Unlike Rose, she has no independent reason, because Moff doesn't write characters independent from him and his use for them as plot devices or object lessons for the fans.

[dragon-bait21.livejournal.com]

The news that both Moffat and Smith will be back for season 8 has pretty much put a stake in my desire to watch any more, as a result I still haven't seen this episode. I am cross that RTD refused to help with the an. special, now I expect Rose's appearance to be something along the lines of the "appearance" in Let's Kill Hitler. And please can we quit the Queen Elizabeth joke, it wasn't funny in EOT, it was even less funny in Amy's Choice Of all the reasons for Queen Bess to consider The Doctor her enemy it had to be about sex. Now it looks to be an element in the special. I have some favorite fanfic authors I will continue to follow-you included-but I think otherwise I'm done. I can't even think of one of the writers I would trust to rescue it.

Edited because I just watched the Ep.

Still don't think the Doctor loves River. Still sounds like she was blackmailing him. Say you love me or I will keep haunting you

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I think the River thing is so screwed up it is hard to make sense of it. It seems to me as if the Doctor is saying that the echo of River is what we have been dealing with all this time, rather than her REAL self. That he's kept her around as a copy. And that is sicker than other things I've seen. I don't know what is wrong with the Doctor Who writers, RTD included, to make them think that a copy of a person is as good as the original. Of course, Moff states that it isn't...here...but then he goes on to rescue Clara, who has been an echo of herself.

I do wonder now if we are likely to see some of the alternative worlds that were created...a sort of Matrix inside the Doctor scenario. That is, tea with Queen Elizabeth and Ten...and some Ten interaction...and then some versions of companions, with Rose appearing in a way that shows she's been corrupted by John Hurt.

I did rewatch the episode and was very bored by it. But, I saw where people are getting the idea that this is a forgotten Time War Doctor...because of what he says about "What I did I did in the name of Peace." But not in the name of the Doctor. It would seem to me that Moff might be trying to whitewash the Doctor's sin of pushing that button and destroying so many people. But, I hope that this is still about the Valeyard. The Valeyard could easily excuse himself for something he did in the future. Or, for that matter, maybe he is the one that pushed the button. I went back and watched the last few minutes of Trial of a Time Lord and found that my recollection was off...the Valeyard escaped from the Matrix. So, he would have been on Gallifrey for the war, too.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

It's been a frustrating season. I started out liking Clara so much more than I ever liked Amy, and I never liked Amy very much. Moff just couldn't resist making her a Speshul Snoflake which took away everything that was awesome about her. Why couldn't she have had BIG SECRET that wasn't ALL ABOUT THE DOCTOR...or maybe the Big Secret was that there was no big secret. I came into the Moff Era feeling a little burned out from RTD's nihilism and falling anvils and BIG MESSAGES, but at the very least he was willing to have the normal people save the world with their very normal humanness, not because of some cosmic connection with the Doctor.

And I call such bull-shit on the fact that nobody ever really stays dead. Just because "Everybody Lives" was awesome once is proof that it should be rare. Because otherwise who gives a shit? By 4th time Rory died and it was already becoming a running gag, I was starting to get the picture.

And the fact that another Jenny managed to be not really dead? (I know the first time was on RTD's watch, but still.) I would reallyreallyreally LOVED for this Jenny to stay dead because I really need for there to be angst and pain in that whole set-up rather than fluffywuffy getting away with shit that no Massachusetts Marriage Victorian Lesbians would have. Yes, I realize one is an alien from the dawn of time who can kill anyone who messes with her. Tough nuggies. They've chosen to set them in that time and place, let them deal with that shit.

[develish1]

"Jennie dying was beautiful. And then...meaningless"

that pretty much sums up almost everything Moff gives us these days sadly. It's all meaningless in the end because he hits his big reset button and nothing bad actually happened, there's no consequences, so no real emotional reaction is ever needed.

RTD might have driven me nuts at times with some of his OTT angst and such, but right now I miss him so badly it hurts

*sigh*

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

RTD really liked to create epic stuff...and then sort of solve it with nutty resolution pieces. But, Moff, never goes out on a limb, instead he just talks a good game at us. He never makes us feel anything genuine. I do think Matt tries from time to time to relate to the story...but it is mostly soulless storytelling. Just an exercise in putting all the pieces in the place the way Moff puts them...and more and more...he just expects us to take his word for things. Like, with Clara...I mean...Jenna is acting up a storm there...but in the end, her character is only important because Moff said she was...and wrote her into importance. She isn't worth caring about in the end.

[develish1]

Oh Moff makes me feel things, granted it's usually either "cheated" or just plain "pissed off", but those are feelings, right? lol

Seriously though, the thing I miss most about RTD is real characters, people with some depth and motivations that you could understand even if you didn't agree with them. Moffat is all about the shiny stuff, and his own ego