rabid1st | When your show starts to tank...lessons for the faithful!

Hello again flist!

I am here to discuss two shows that have failed to live up to their previous glory days: Doctor Who and Supernatural.

Every time I've been a fan of a show...Buffy, Roswell, BSG and I've jumped ship and suggested the show is about to tank, I've been met with a barrage of "True Fan" outrage. Oh, how very dare I? People tell me the show is "as good as ever" or "BETTER!" because now it is appealing to a broader demographic or now the ratings mean something different than they once did, because...you know...people are listening to the show via Skype.

Let me say this, if you find yourself defending a show against a number of former fans who are telling you the show is no good any more. The show is probably no good!

This article is a case in point...defending the hell out of Doctor Who's 5th and 6th season, which, trust me, were not very good.

http://www.denofgeek.com/television/comments/999237/is_doctor_who_really_in_trouble.html#comments_form

But, oh, yes, the ratings don't matter, because people have download capacity now! Riiiiiight! We just didn't ever download things back in 2007. Waiting to watch a show...still means it is not a priority for you!

And so we go to Supernatural. And how it isn't the show it was under Kripke. It isn't. Not because of the S6 ending, though. People are upset about the S6 ending and we true fans would do better if we listened to what those people who are upset are saying. The writers should listen, too. Enough already with Sam and Dean against each other and enough with the aborted plots. Stop being quite so stealthy in your plot points, because most of the fans are missing them entirely. Which is not to say that I think SPN is done for...or that Doctor Who is necessarily done for either. I think both shows still have potential. But to discount what former fans of a show are saying is insane. It doesn't make you a "True Fan" of the show to bury your head in the sand and pretend that everything is just as good...or better than ever.

Rae
who still thinks we are looking at H.P. Lovecraft for Supernatural this coming season. Which means, Cas isn't in his body something else is...and Cas is probably looking for a new vessel or needs to be rescued from somewhere nasty.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I love how the writer says "It doesn't matter if the show isn't winning awards" and then later is like "Moffat wrote award winning episodes."

Oh and:
The Big Bang may not have been as overblown as the finales of previous years,

Because that wasn't overblown AT ALL with bringing back every single enemy the Doctor ever faced (and really reminding me of fanfic authors who want to show they've looked at the Classic Who wiki and name dropped all the old enemies) and destroying the whole universe so that Amy could think it back into existence. It was more overblown than anything RTD ever did but without even half the heart.

Yes! The writer of that article is a typical head in the sand sort of fan. I will grant him that SOME people are all about David Tennant and only watched for him. Certainly, David was very enjoyable for me. But I am as much a fan of Doctor Who as anyone ever was, going way way back to the First Doctor. And I'm telling them, Matt isn't good enough and the show isn't good enough either. I think that the heart has gone out of it and it is mostly childish jokes and over acting and overblown plotting now.

Some of this is about Moff's shortcomings, not as a writer, but as someone who really understands Who. I don't think he really gets what makes it work is partly the goodness and joy at the heart of it...the innocence. He gets Sherlock Holmes. I love his Holmes, at least so far. But there was alway something innocent and endearing about the Doctor and its vanished with this regeneration.

Rae

My hubby and I have diverged on Moffat-era Doctor Who (damn you, Moffat!); he's faithfully kept up and loves it, while I have given up after S6E3. I've still stayed away from spoilers though, thinking I might pick it up again if something so big and awesome happens that even deserters have reason to come back again. (So far, not that I've heard.)

All the new characters (with the exception of Rory) annoy me so much. And while I've softened on River Song, she still grates on me; I feel Moffat has been really heavyhanded pushing Amy and River upon the audience and the Doctor (I really can't describe it any other way). All the previous companions had been given more time to develop not only in themselves, but in their relationship with the Doctor. Moffat's era? I have had zero emotional connection. I think I was alienated right from the beginning (the Eleventh Hour) from the sense of Moffat screaming IN CAPS about the awesomeness of Amy Pond. Funnily, I had gotten that same sense in The Girl in the Fireplace, the S4 Library two-parter and Blink (but Sally Sparrow WAS more relate-able, overall, so less fail there).

I know exactly what you mean. If you have been reading my posts for a bit, you will see that I've cited what I think is the Moff's main problem as a writer. He likes to tell not show. He tells us that River and the Doctor are a great couple. He tells us about their epic love. He tells us that Amy is the greatest companion ever and that the Doctor is so very super-duper that all the aliens better watch out. But he doesn't bother showing us those behaviors that would let us draw those conclusions.

And, oddly enough, he does allow us to see how super-duper Sherlock Holmes is...at least in the three episodes that have aired at this point. Though, to be fair, there is a couple of times...with Mycroft and with the police officers...that he tells us about Holmes, too.

When RTD let Ten go on about how amazing he was...it was also a bit obnoxious...but...we had a couple of years of Rose thinking he was the bees-pajamas before Ten started going on about himself. And when David was playing off of Billie...he had a little self-deprecation going on because he played the Doctor a bit in awe of Rose and afraid of her mom. So, it came across as a little charming as well as annoying. But with Eleven, I think, it is just a lot of hot air being blown around and not enough substance behind it.

I do recall the Moffat telling-not-showing discussions now that you've reminded me. Such a pity that his arcs get more attention and development than his characters, because he does have that. (I haven't watched any of his Sherlock Holmes yet. Laziness.)

David Tennant played the Doctor with subtleties that I really appreciate more now that we're stuck with Matt Smith. David/Ten's obnoxiousness and hubris was always balanced with how he played vulnerability; RTD also did something right with how the companion's families were always genuine parts of the stories you saw them in (even if you didn't like them).

I know opinions are all over the board about Matt Smith; but I really don't see his Doctor as properly "strange" as much as him acting like a twit. Didn't know whether to blame MS or Moffat for that. It's possibly both.

Oh geez, they all start to tank at some point. X-Files, Buffy, Angel, Roswell, West Wing and so on and so forth. It's rare for a show that has that unique spark to be able to maintain it after a certain period of time. Some can hang on longer than others (some also get more of a chance than others), but they inevitably hit that downslide. Some are worse than others. Sometimes the worst episode of a good show is better than the best episode of a crappy show (i.e. West Wing), but you can't deny that the quality is no longer the same.

I tend to be the type of fan who sticks it out to the end, just 'cause that's how I roll. It's the same reason I rarely give up reading a book, even if it's HORRIBLE. But I don't blame folks who decide it's not worth their time anymore.

I kind of shunt DW off into it's own category because it's been going on for so long. It always has ups and downs, better and worse seasons, better and worse episodes. Do I like the last couple of seasons as much as the previous four? No. But I love the show (as a whole) enough to stick with it. Plus, occasionally we get brilliance like "The Doctor's Wife" that makes it all worth it. ;) But again, I can't hate on people who just can't watch it now. It's definitely got a very different tone under the Grand Moff, and it's not going to work for everyone.

I can't decide about Supernatural. I think my expectations post-Kripke were so low that I've actually enjoyed it. Not that there haven't been plenty of WTF moments, but I'm still invested. I am worried about next season, though. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to like this turn that they've taken with Cas, and how long can the boys keep taking hit after hit and keep going? We've already seen some of that burnout and at some point it just becomes completely unrealistic for them to keep plugging along. I know we've discussed this before, but having them die (for realsies this time) is the only way to end the series. I can't think of any other way that would make any sense whatsoever.

I don't agree with you about Doctor Who. It had a boring patch (which is where that Vincent episode he mentions firmly sits) but I think it has picked up again, and I am back to liking all the characters, even Ms Pond. Certainly it isn't perfect, but right now it's getting better not worse.

I will say that I stopped watching again at the Flesh episode. It is a real slog for me to watch it these days, mostly because of Matt Smith, however. I do like Amy much better these days. Also, unlike you, I am not a fan of River Song. I don't hate her, but she puts me off of my food.

Which is not to say that Alex isn't lovely. River, however, gives me stomach cramps as of The Flesh episode. I did really like Episode 2 of this season. That makes only 2 episodes of Moff's era that I've liked though.

Rae

When your show starts to tank...lessons for the faithful!

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