Female Fandom Shame? Was Buffy a Male-Driven Show?

[rabid1st]

I was reading an interview for Fangasm Magazine and I came across this opinion prompted by the question of why female fans feel a sense of shame for liking scifi/horror shows.

Todd: That’s exactly what I mean. I think the Buffy fandom, because there was a hot chick, and there were vampires, blood and hot girls, I think it was a very boy driven fandom. I think for the most part shows like Battlestar and Star Trek, there are female fans but the loudest ones have been the male fans. When you think about the Big Bang Theory and the image out there of the geek, it’s a boy thing. It’s not a feminine pursuit to be inspired by or to be turned on by genre things. For the most part, I think society is like, leave the action figures to the boys and you go play with Barbie. I think to say ‘Yes, I’m way into the horror movies,’ traditionally speaking I think a lot of people would go “well, that girl is weird.”


I do have questions about the very premise of female fandom shame...which I personally don't feel. But my first thought was to question the idea that Buffy was a male-driven show. Almost every Buffy fan I know is female. And yet...and yet... it would explain so much about the eventual degradation of the show. I have spoken of the way the writer's lost sight of how special Buffy was and began to view her as a Barbie doll. I have railed against Joss Whedon having no idea what makes a woman strong. But I had attributed all of that to a sad lack of imagination on the part of the writers. Still, recent exposure to a rewatch of both Buffy and Farscape has me reconsidering.

There is no doubt in my mind that the very nature of television production works against the imagination. You work very quickly under duress and you are at the mercy, often, of actors and directors and network executives. The "winning formula" of a show is what matters to the bottom-line of keeping the show on the air. And when you combine that motivating force with burnout, you tend to get an inferior product.

But Joss Whedon once said that his basic idea for Buffy was this sexy young girl, perfect victim, walking along a dark alley and then she turns and beats the crap out of the monster stalking her. At the time, I shrank a bit from the assumption that "normal" sexy girls are victims. And I acknowledged that this was simply a male fantasy to have a perfectly beautiful girl who didn't require anything from you as a male.

Compare that to David Kemper, a producer on Farscape, who talked about making a conscious effort to put sex and emotion front and center in his show. He mentions how the fans (one assumes MALE fans) and critics kept asking him why he bothered to have such a strong emotional component to the show. Science fiction it is assumed is not supposed to be about deeper feelings, but is rather about space ships and aliens and details about physics. He felt, however, it was far more likely that people would develop strong emotional connections if they lived together on a ship in space. He built his show around relationships and then gave the people problems. And from that small bit of insight, he built one of the greatest scifi series (probably the greatest) ever. But his show was not wildly popular, like Star Trek or Star Wars. So the brilliance of it is also in question. I would contest though that a large part of the popularity of other shows was also the relationship component...Kirk and Spock and Bones...Luke and Han and Leia and Obi-Wan.

I also believe that what drew a larger audience to New Who was the relationship between Rose and the Doctor. I believe the Doctor in love was a more well-rounded character than he had ever been before and that was part of his appeal to a greater audience.

Still, the most vocal fans seem to be fanboys and they want no part of romance. Which is not to say there aren't female noromos...I know of several. Is action adventure so compelling? Is it targetting a limited demographic?

Sigh! I had hoped to make this into some sort of essay. But I feel I've lost my point. So, let's open this up to opinion. Do you feel that the female fan is marginalized in science fiction or horror by the fandoms or by the writers? Are female characters and desires disrespected or objectified...or masculinized? Do you think female fans of scifi are ashamed of their attachment to certain shows? Have you ever been ashamed to admit that you like scifi? Why? Was it because...well...scifi is simply considered less worthy of respect in the mainstream, seen as silly or frivolous? Or is it because you didn't want to be associated with the nerdy crowd? Or is it because you don't feel females or our opinions and views are respected by the genre?

Comments

[ladyoneill.livejournal.com]

Well, I have no shame in loving scifi or horror or action/adventure. I grew up with a dad who loved scifi. He took me to see Star Wars when I was 11, bought me comic books, sat with me through cheesy B movies on Saturday afternoon cable marathons. I never saw a stigma of any kind of being a woman who loved scifi.

Maybe the shows themselves are male driven but, for me, fandom is almost 100% female. In the twelve or so years I've been in the Buffy fandom I've run across maybe five men and literally hundreds, maybe thousands of women. Now to be fair these are mostly fic writers. I don't interact in any fandoms other than through fanfic. So, in other forums, maybe they are male heavy. In my other two active fandoms, DC Comics and SPN, I only know of a couple of male fanfic writers.

So, basically, almost everyone I interact with online through any fandom and fic writing are women, and many of them are very active in scifi/horror fandoms. Outside of fanfic maybe their experiences are different.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

That is my experience as well. I have never been ashamed of my love of scifi except in respect to the perceived quality of the offerings. Like it isn't considered "literary" work...for librarians. I have fought against that stereotype though, including scifi in all of my reading lists. My mother read scifi and so did the rest of my family...brothers and sisters and I read it as well. Hard scifi and also female oriented scifi. Though I remember being roundly dismissed by a fanboy when I asked him if a particular book was any good and he said, "It's hard scifi." as if that meant I wouldn't find it readable or something.

In the Buffy fandom, I haven't come across too many male fans at all. But, like you, I am mostly in the fan-fiction areas. That's why it struck me that Buffy couldn't possibly be "male-driven" and yet when it came to the decisions made at the end of the show...decisions made by a female head writer...I did have qualms about how the character of Buffy developed...or failed to develop.

Most of my interactions are with female fans, because they read my fanfiction. And it seems there is a predominance of female fans at conventions, too. But the most vocal, or most respected authorities on scifi seem to be fanboys, not fangirls. I wonder why that is?

[ladyoneill.livejournal.com]

As to your last question, it may just be the case that most boys are more vocal and aggressive than most girls. And it's also possible that the guys still see scifi as their "thing" and we females are encroaching. I'm generalizing here, of course.

I know I'm an oddity in my comic book store. The only other woman ever there is the owner. *g* And she's admitted that she's gotten some odd looks and comments from newcomers.

It's been a long struggle for women to make inroads into creating comic books and the number of writers, artists etc. are still much lower than guys. Scifi, comics, horror, they've generally been seen as male oriented careers for writers, movie producers etc. It may just be a case, like in any business, that women's voices will eventually be heard in equal numbers.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

I've been a comic book/scifi fan since I was 5 years old in 1973 and it is very much a male dominated place, although that has changed greatly in the past decade or two.

There are a metric buttload more female fans than ever before and I think that the writers, still strongly male dominated, are struggling trying to find a balance between "real" scifi and the stuff that will encourage both sexes to watch. I think some male creators come closer than others. Joss tried harder to include a female voice, but when all is said and done he's still a guy and no amount of Women's Study courses will ever be able to completely bridge that divide.

Do you feel that the female fan is marginalized in science fiction or horror by the fandoms or by the writers?

Both but it's getting better than it was when I started in fandom as a child.

Are female characters and desires disrespected or objectified...or masculinized?

Yes, yes and yes. Some are. I mean, look at Katie Sackoff's Starbuck. She may as well have had a penis. On the other hand, Buffy was still pretty feminine by the end of the show.

Do you think female fans of scifi are ashamed of their attachment to certain shows?

I can't speak for other female fans but I'm not.

Have you ever been ashamed to admit that you like scifi? Why? Was it because...well...scifi is simply considered less worthy of respect in the mainstream, seen as silly or frivolous? Or is it because you didn't want to be associated with the nerdy crowd?

I can't say as I have, although I strongly resist the unwashed, unsocialized, living in your parent's basement stereotype of comic book fans even though I know several dudes who fit that type to a T. Hell my first husband was and is again the embodiment of the stereotype.

Or is it because you don't feel females or our opinions and views are respected by the genre?

Oh hell, they certainly often aren't. Look at the Wonder Woman's New Costume Brouhaha. "Wonder Woman should be allowed to dress sexy if she wants!" cry the menfen while the womenfen cry, "Who says she wants to you big jerk?!?!?! She's written and drawn by men and fighting in a bathing suit is damned uncomfortable!"

[maypanic.livejournal.com]

I've been a fan of science fiction since birth, basically, but have never been at all involved in "fandom" until Doctor Who. And this fandom as I've known it is largely female, or (as is the prerogative of online fandom) unidentified gender. The conventions I've personally attended have all been about a 50/50 gender mix, although there are certainly a very small percentage of females there who don't really have interest in scifi, but just like dressing up in overtly sexual teeny tiny costumes in public for the attention it gets them. You don't see that so much with the males.

No, I've never been ashamed of my love for science and science fiction, or embarrassed by it. I was late to discover fandom, but the first time I dipped my toes in that water was horrible (nothing to do with gender) so I enjoyed my books and movies and etc just fine with just real life friends for decades. Not everyone shared my interests, but no one ever made me feel bad about it.

That said... I went out recently with a guy who was SHOCKED to find out I love scifi. He just couldn't get over it, a GIRL he considered "hot" who openly loves science fiction. He thought it was awesome but just kept asking things like "But how did you get into that? But why do you like scifi?" over and over. Such an attitude of "girls just don't like scifi, it's a fact of life" was so inherent that it ultimately derailed any potential relationship before it could get started. If every girl he has ever known couldn't stand any scifi enough to even give it a chance, we obviously have different standards for the level of open-mindedness required in a friend, and I really don't think our friends could ever get along.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I'd say a big part of the problem is that male fans tend to hang out with other male fans, and then assume that they are "fandom" and that therefore fandom is light on women. When, in reality, there are tons of women, they're just off doing their own version of fandom in primarily women-dominated places, like LiveJournal.

(And considering the amount of sexism in male-dominated spheres of fandom, no wonder many women prefer to go do their fannish stuff elsewhere.)

Check out the Transformative Works and Cultures vidding history projects, which exist to document the fact that women have been making fanvids since in the 70s, in an attempt to correct the popular misconception that male fans "invented" vidding during the YouTube era. (Part of a a long story of female-dominated creative history and culture being erased by the male-dominated mainstream historical narrative.)

Also, just have to say that idea that Buffy fandom was male-dominated is hilarious, and reveals a pretty boggling level of ignorance on the part of whoever said it.

[jonesiexxx.livejournal.com]

reveals a pretty boggling level of ignorance on the part of whoever said it.

Yupper.

"Todd" is committing sociology. And picking his data out of his bum.

[gwendolynflight.livejournal.com]

Well, as a grad student in English Literature I'm obliged to express a sense of shame about liking sci-fi, if I admit to it at all (not a wise move in certain circles). It's definitely viewed as inferior to 'real writing', even with all the talk of expanding the canon, and the acknowledgment that there is good scifi out there (like Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451, 1984 becoming obligatory in most High Schools), most scifi is assumed to be trash, lacking in whatever it is that makes a novel/play/poem worthy of study. And while you have some professors teaching scifi themed classes, they have to do it as a lark, or they're looked down upon, not seen as 'real' scholars in a way. And while I was praised for writing my senior paper on Hamlet and The Lion King in undergrad, I was discouraged from doing something so frivolous in grad school. So, for me, being ashamed of scifi is more of a professional move, signaling that yes I fit in with the rest of you, and share your views, and would make a great colleague so give me money! Yeah ...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

This is what I meant when I said scifi is consider "less worthy of respect." This very attitude carries over to librarians and to our patrons. There is an expectation that we only read the classics and only admire "real" literature. Though, of course, the themes explored in some scifi novels are just as demanding and sociologically revealing as any other work of fiction.

Part of the problem with genre fiction is that it still carries the pulp stigma of the 1950's. This is true of mysteries and romance novels as well. The idea being that the work isn't worth more than a dime and is whipped out in a hurry by some barely literate hack. Of course, given publishing structures and strictures today, a book needs to be very high quality to get noticed. This means the literary standards have changed, but the critical mainstream hasn't caught up, yet.

It is odd that the same rules hold true in television, however. Because some of the best social commentary and some of the best stories have been told on SciFi programs like the Twilight Zone, The Outer Limits, Alien Nation, The X-Files and even Star Trek (especially TOS, TNG and DSN). Yet, we still see a dismissive attitude toward "silly" programs by mainstream viewers. Some of whom watch The Bachelor or Big Brother, I might add.

Rae

[gwendolynflight.livejournal.com]

Hah, exactly! But I'm starting to see a change with my younger colleagues. We're talking about changing our comp lit program to themed courses, and letting the students select the theme - I floated the idea of a scifi theme to the head of the program, and he loved the idea. But then, we really do a lot with movies and tv programs, anyway, so the course itself is unusual. We even analyze ads, because everything can reveal something about a culture.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I am reminded of my somewhat radical stand that fiction tells us so much more about a culture than the history of the society. That would extend to the limited (flash) fiction of advertising as well as genre fiction and movies and television. It is the stories we tell about people, places and events that illuminate the human experience at this point in history. Fiction therefore carries the most validity, in my less than humble opinion. I mean, how many people know about Victorian Society from Jane Austin? Many more than know about it from historical documents. And more than that, the Jane Austin readers know details, textures and flavors of the time.

More power to mixed media courses, I say!

Rae

[maniacalshen.livejournal.com]

The commenters are onto something with the note about fanfiction. The overwhelming majority of people I've met in various fandoms are female, probably because I mostly interact with fandoms through fanfic. But on a mailing list I used to patronize, as well as my real life group of friends, the numbers by gender are much more even.

Let's face it. Fanfic is mostly about relationships, which is "girly stuff," or something. Even when it's Gundam Wing fanfiction. So the boys aren't as common. (FWIW, my betas are men.)

But onto the original topic... I've never felt weird or ashamed for being into sci fi, even though my parents really don't get it. My girlfriends and I all read Animorphs; my guy friends and I got together to watch Stargate in high school. I roleplay. It's all good. I do think the female fan isn't always considered as much as the male, but this is less the case in television as it is in movies. Doctor Who tries for equal eye candy; Firefly had kickass characters of both genders; Samantha Carter is awesome. But Splice was like the frickin' Adam and Eve story all over again. Everything's the female's fault; the man is just led along because he loves her/is stupid; she gets the biggest comeuppance for what she's done. The woman in Predators was cool, don't get me wrong, but she also couldn't stop making doe eyes at the alpha male who was treating everyone like crap. And she was the care-er, of course.

At least, that's my opinion. Your mileage may vary, depending on what you've seen and how you saw it.