Doctor Who Season 5...Finale

[rabid1st]

You know, I don't want to seem clingy...


...but I could kiss Stephen Moffat right about now. I really could.

I kept telling people they wouldn't be disappointed in the finale. I believed the Moff would deliver a story that wrapped neatly around itself to make sense. He actually made me growl a bit with how timey-wimey this episode got in places, but it was a sterling example of his grasp of his storyline threads. He's not one to make an RTD sort of handwave on his plot holes. He might make one on established canon or physics though. The nitpicker in me found a lot of places to go..."Oh, oh, no! That's not how that works. You can't just make stuff up to suit you, Moff. You're not RTD." But I was able to keep watching despite those niggles, because I love a clever monkey puzzle.

And this was a time line juggling extravaganza. Plus, I don't know if you all notice it, but Moff just fixed our lousy ending for Journey's End. First, we could go with the Doctor's life is rewinding as a loophole. Why not have it rewind straight through the explosion that started it all? And I'm right, he's not the real Doctor is he? Sure we could say that Eleven went through the crack before then, but his regeneration and the explosion were all happening at the same time as Amy is praying. He could just as easily have gone just that few seconds back into Ten. So there's a loophole for you Eleven/Rose writers and for we Ten/Rose people.

And why was the TARDIS exploding? They might be about to address this point next season. But even if they do I feel we have another great big loophole beyond the explosion, with the Doctor vanishing from Amy's universe for a time. He went into the void, but who is to say that Bad Wolf Rose couldn't bring him out of there. Or she could have met him at the heart of that explosion...since she too was powered by all that space/time energy. Sure Moff had to give some of it to Amy with his whole "all the universe in your head" speech about little Amy, but I like little Amy so I'm okay with her being by that schism for a long time and absorbing some Time Lord talents. Shades of Last of the Time Lords madness for you. Might explain how mad big Amy is.

Also, I am very happy with Rory and Amy being the love that lasted 2000 years. Because it does sort of show that Moff was kidding about the waiting Rose being clingy. At least his Doctor found it endearing. I still think he's not very emotionally mature...but at least he gave it the old college try in this episode. Okay, the grammar school try, then. My point is that he got in there and tried to make us feel something for these people in their hours of despair. And without giving in to too much goopiness he did fix my problems with the Doctor in a very clever, I'm not fixing anything, way. See? You don't need to go to the other universe to create a plausible loophole.

I can now simply assume that the part of RTD's story that I didn't like...has been rewritten. And this new Eleven comes straight from Rose's world. This allows Rory to have a real impact on the Doctor, showing him that humans just keep waiting. Which allows him to go to Rose while he is gone from the "real" universe. And for the first time this season, I am sorry that David didn't last through it. Because this would have been pretty much how I would have had the Doctor come back to the real universe after his time in Rose's universe. I think if you read back through my Humperdinck posts you will see that I said we could simply have the TARDIS in space, exploding and the Doctor back and that's how we start over with Eleven. Or he shows up somewhere in a tux and people suddenly remember him.

Anyway, another really weird thing...and I want you all to know about this right now...if I haven't mentioned it before...my Ten/Rose in Pete's World story is called Something Borrowed. I just about freaked out when they used the Blue idea and the wedding, because I was like, "Oh, God! It's not RTD that's in my head, it's Doctor Who in general." Oh, you know who can swear this for me...my beta, Kes.

Kes? Tell them you saw the Something Borrowed Chapter 1...way, way back and I'm not copying Moff, I just have Doctor Who Brain.

Let's see what else I liked about this episode. Well, it was clever. I expected it would be. It was almost too clever at moments. But they were funny moments. The Doctor going to Rory made for some lovely comedy later, and at the moment, but it was rather too much Doctor crossing his own time line. This is used too often to explain Doctor inaction in the past, to go unremarked here. Though perhaps since the whole idea was to END this particular time line, it didn't matter what rules of time they shattered. I must say that Rory did make me cry and Amy didn't annoy me too much. I liked the reaction everyone had to Amy saying her imaginary friend was real. It made me think Amy annoyed everyone not just me. But it also made me wonder how THEY all knew the Doctor if the time line was actually erased and rebooted. Did he get rebooted into the universe at that point? But also retroactively? And do Rory and Amy remember having REAL adventures with him? I would imagine they would not. Though the whole idea of companions being special might apply in this case.

I also liked the Mr. Pond thing, because again in my story I had the Doctor being Mr. Tyler. Because "That's how it works"...but also because he didn't want Rose to be named Rose Blue...which would sound stupid. Anyway, let's see what else I liked. Well, I love Rory and Amy as married companions. Took me all the way back to the beginning of the show and I think it is a novel and interesting idea. I still did not fall under the spell of River and her cryptic-speak. I am willing now to accept the current crew though. And that's really saying something for Moff's talents with time travel stories. All it took for me is the possibility that this Doctor was really Rose's Doctor and I'm all happy again.

There's a definite problem with the whole "Don't touch the baby" part of the episode. Residual energy released for the clicking together of the screwdrivers, but none for Amy putting her hand on her own head. I figure you could skate around the idea of Reapers from Father's Day because the whole universe was already gone. So maybe there was no obvious acceleration of the process at the point of everything unraveling. I sort of hated the single tear dropping onto the TARDIS shaped diary. But okay, that could be because I've been annoyed by Amy for so long. Her happy reunion with her parents didn't work for me either. But I did like her mum. And I loved little Amy as much as I ever did. For me, little Amy is the thing that this whole season was hanging on and in fact...it did hang on her and that story. I loved that all the previous episode bits we went back through actually happened in the episodes this time. As opposed to the manufactured ones last week. This is REAL planning at work.

The Pandorica however has an inbuilt paradox to it. Yes, the light from inside it keeps whatever is inside from aging or dying for all eternity. And so that light can restore all life and suns and trees and Yugos in the universe (of all the things I predicted for the finale I bet the idea that the Doctor could keep salad crisp forever wasn't the one you thought was on the money...was it?) But, where did the Pandorica come from, why does IT still exist if the entire universe has been destroyed? Who made it and put it there, someone on Earth? And why doesn't this ever bother the Doctor? Oh, right...because Moff doesn't want us to ask this question.

The obvious answer is that it must come from somewhere BEYOND this universe. From some other universe...Pete's World perhaps. Or perhaps it is like the Void Ship and so can survive the Void. That would have been extra clever of him to have put that into the story. Instead we sort of have a paradox around which his entire universe is built. As I said, it works for me and my ship though, so I am fine with it.

My wish would be that now that Moff has really reset his Doctor, that he stops trying quite so hard to be clever and just settles down to writing good episodes and paying more attention to his characters. But I'm not sure if he is going to do that. He likes this sort of wrapping around itself storyline that comes with a surprise at the end. Still, maybe we can all learn to like this Doctor and Amy and Rory Pond now. Did Rory have a last name when he was plastic or before that? I can't remember. See? That's not good. And I really don't want to watch this season ever again. But I can certainly use it in my writing of Ten/Rose...who can be Ten/Rose now...thanks to Moff.

So...big smooches for the new head writer. He did good in the end. Even better than I expected he would actually. I don't know if I will ever like Amy, but it is possible I might, especially given the actress is further along with her and she's been reset and her past insane behavior has been explained to my satisfaction. So, it's all good to go into the next phase of Doctor Who.

Rae
giving S5 the thumbs up for none of it being real except little Amy.

Comments

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

Rory's last name is Williams, the same as Gwen & Rhys, which some of us thought might have factored in since he wasn't easily phased and very observant.

I do like that you were right about the jacket/no jacket thing. Good call, that!

Generally I liked this. It was a satisfying story. Although it was also somewhat predictable. Not complaining about the happy ending. Just a little bittersweet that RTD coudn't have done the same for Ten in as satisfying and sense-making ways.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well, yes! But since we don't know where the rewind stops and we are very close to the regeneration at the last point we see the Doctor...I think we have a much bigger loophole to work with and we can factor in all of that garbled nonsense about "Your Song Is Ending" from the OOD. I believe Moff was actually watching RTD's work and thinking what can I do to make this all make sense. Even though he couldn't really do much...and I do believe that is why he wanted David to stay...to send the Doctor back in his own time line. While I don't think Moff is capable of writing Rose/Ten I do think he is capable of creating a loophole that allows us the freedom to write a better ending if we want. Since he just did that.

Yeah, I had salad crisp for all time, too. :grin: And little Amy will remember him and the crack in her wall being the point of the explosion of the TARDIS. Turns out it was also leading to the end of the universe, too. I think everyone had little Amy as important though. That's one of the things that makes it all so predictable. And some of the solutions are not consistent with historic Doctor Who. But I do think the best answer for that is that none of what we saw this last season was "REAL" which means, actually, I had it from "He's not the real Doctor and Amy is still a little girl."

I am going to definitely tune in for Christmas...because I want to see if there are any changes in the character. I did like his dancing. And River asking him if he danced. I very much enjoyed that one moment from her. Didn't care for the marriage proposal, but did like her acknowledgment that he "hardly knows her."

[rap541.livejournal.com]

You know honestly when you go on about Stephen Moffat... all I can think is "who is this person talki ng about kissing my dad and does MOM know?

I know... no relation at all and my dad doesn't even like doctor who despite being british....

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

We didn't want you to find out this way...

Rae

[rap541.livejournal.com]

Wait.... does this mean I get presents after playing everyone off each other?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

No! But it might mean that I am coming to live with you in my old age.

[onlyoot.livejournal.com]

Im hoping they touch on the Pandorica next season. At first I thought that maybe the Alliance of 'baddies' grouped together and built it but certainly if they did, they needed help. As for still existing, it was on Earth which was the last place to exist and possibly thats why it still existed. Maybe not. According to the confidential, next season we will find out more about what the silence is/who it is, why the Tardis exploded etc. And also about River and who she is. Which is good cos then we can stop it being mentioned every ep shes in.
I think theres still stuff from this season that will need to be explained.

As for remembering the Raggedy Doctor, the guests didnt. Amy did and I bet she told the stories again and again and again.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

That was my hope. That the guests were simply remembering HER stories. And then they accepted that he was real like they did when he shows up in Episode 1. Then, the only ones that have some residual memory of him are the ones that were there when the universe reset...Amy, Rory and River. And even they didn't REALLY remember until he returned. Though River's book is full of adventures again, not blank. So, he has existed here. You know, it just struck me that this is another example of my Doctor Who Brain at work, as a similar thing happens in Something Borrowed. But for a completely different reason...however...I could sort of work this reason into my story I suppose.

So, the Silence is still falling? Did Moff say that? I would have assumed it fell when the universe vanished. That it was a portent of the vanishing. Though I do wonder who was talking about it. And it wasn't so much that the Pandorica existed on Earth that bothered me. It was that we must then assume that some Earth people made it for it to have ever existed. It wasn't a shadow of itself, like the DALEKS. Of course, that could be Stephen Moffat logic that allows Rory, an Auton, to go on existing because we need him for the plot. Or rather, I mean, he was part of the event horizon and so was the Pandorica so it had to continue existing.

[ladymalchav.livejournal.com]

You can also see Amy's Raggedy Doctor puppets in her room before the wedding. So she still had the memories and told the stories and all, they just really were imaginary until she 'believed'.

If you think about it, this plot point was more Tinkerbell than Tinkerbell Doctor Jesus ever was.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, as I said that was sort of inevitable if the series was going to make sense. If you look back I was saying that she would clap her hands and really believe in fairies and blue boxes. And that's just what she did.

And I rewatched the end and apparently the Doctor does say the Silence is still falling...so it's a separate thing, just as River is...more five year plotting going on from the Moff then.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, maybe the Silence that falls is related to The Silence in the Library. One thing I have been expecting from Moff is for him to send his Doctor back to save River from her computer prison. And one way he could do that is to make her an Auton body for interfacing into the real world.

On the other other hand...it is probably just that Moff likes the word Silence the way RTD liked the word Darkness. I think it would annoy me if we rescued River the same way it annoys me that Jack could be the Face of Boe, who really is nothing like Jack.

Rae

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

Uh oh...Rae's been drinking the Kool-Aid! LOL

I still think the Moff was heavy-handed (subtlety is SO not his strong suit!), but the one bit that really impressed me was the scene during the "rewind" when current!Doctor talks to past!Amy circa the Weeping Angels. I'd thought at the time that this little bit of that scene had a lot more depth than Eleven had shown us to this point, and now I know why. Well played, sir. Well played.

And I absolutely adore little Amelia. She's a great character and it still floors me that Karen's little cousin had no acting experience before this!

There were definitely some timey whimey no-nos in this episode (the Doctor blithely popping in and out of his timeline, Amy and Amelia together), but as you say, since the point was to get rid of this whole timeline anyway, I think we can excuse it here. It wouldn't work anywhere else without a complete continuity implosion.

And I have to give the Moff credit for providing the fans (of all sorts) with a really lovely loophole. That was almost certainly not his intent, but I'll take it! You can make a case for pretty much anything at this point. I choose to believe that the Doctor and Rose got their happy ending in there somewhere. ;)

Intriguing idea of having married companions. We've never had that before, so I'm interested to see how this changes (or doesn't change) the dynamic. I also hope that Eleven will be a bit more settled now and we can just get on with the business of having adventures.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

We talked about Jacket!Doctor from the Weeping Angels episode before this, though I only got the sense that there was something wrong and it had to do with Little Amy remembering. Someone else actually clued me in to the Jacket part of it, Oot I believe.

I do agree that Moff was quite heavy handed. I think he is probably used to people not following him when he explains something. I get that. When you DO have control of your storyline, you hate for people to go...oh, I've just thought about it and you can't do that. Though I do believe that it is relevant if you are not getting your point across to the audience.

What I do enjoy is that the universe we had was never right in the last Season. It is a marvelous way to break free of RTD and David Tennant, because any inconsistencies or failings in storyline or character can be handwaved with a "This is a false time line" fix. And as we are saying, this is the best chance we have to reunite all of Ten with Rose. I offer up my apologies right now to the Ten2/Rose fans, because I really was trying to make it work. But I don't know that I can give it any credence now that we have such a glorious out for our ship.

I, too, hope that Eleven has settled into his character. I do like the idea of married companions who are so devoted to one another. And yet one of them is still flirtatious. In the last few scenes I liked all of them quite a bit. Eleven seemed more mature and so did Amy and Rory seemed more confident...and even poor River, well, I could have done without her cryptic-speak and the whole marriage proposal went on for way too long, but I thought there was a little spark between her and the Doctor for the first time. And not for the first time, I wondered if Matt Smith was held back by the story arc for this season from being the best Doctor he can be.

Rae
definitely not a super fan of Moff and standing by all of my earlier criticism of him...but willing to believe that he, at the very least, turned his weakness in writing into a strength with this concept for a reset series.

Married Companions

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

I thought Ian and Barbara in the first series were an item, even if they actually married later on?

Re: Married Companions

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I thought you were thinking of Ian and Barbara...but I don't think they were married during the traveling, were they?

But married companions is a great idea. I was pulling at the very least for romantically involved ones. And now Amy might grow up a little bit...before she's faced with that pregnancy...and settling down to wave at her former self from a hilltop.

Rae

Re: Married Companions

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

No, they were kind of flirtatious (and you could certainly make a case that they seemed to like each other), but they weren't actually seeing each other. And as far as I'm aware, they didn't get married, unless it's something that happened in one of the Big Finish audioplays or something like that (nothing on the series itself).

Re: Married Companions

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

That was my feeling...that they were not married. That they simply left as a sort of couple. I will admit it has been over 20 years since I saw the Ian & Barbara episodes through and even then, I was handicapped by some loss of footage, I think. I do feel this is our first married companions couple and I think it is a great idea.

Rae

[mrs_roy.livejournal.com]

So, Professor Rae, who or what is River Song? I'm sure you have a theory!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I believe she killed the Doctor and then lived to regret it, even to love him in retrospect. So, I think her story with him will start with his death. And work backward from there. But Moff is still overselling her, he oversells everything with the bombastic "Greatest god like lonely time lord that ever lived and all of the monsters will quake in fear of me" business. Or in the case of River Song..."I am so cute and mysterious and sexy that the Doctor is totally captivated by me and you should be, too." Which sort of already has ended with her bubble burst...like his was...but that could all be temporary...like his was.

Rae

[mrs_roy.livejournal.com]

Well, considering that fact that RTD told us that Rose is the love of the Doctor life, we can safely assume it's a one way street where she's concerned!

I've heard some interesting theories as to who she is and what her interest in the Doctor is. Be interesting to find out why she killed him, and if their apparent 'relationship' is nothing more than a penance on her part.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I assume their relationship is a false one because it has a predetermined ending. River admits in Forest of the Dead that she had no idea why the Doctor had set her up as he did...obviously, he did it to save her life...which he knew would end there. Then, he also gave her the sonic to save her. She never realized that but we did. So every part of her story about how important she was to him...could just be his setting her up to follow through on things. That's one of the things I don't find at all charming about River.

But it is possible that the Doctor could grow to care about her. If she wasn't so predestined I might like her. As it is, I can't be bothered with her. It is rather my reaction to Amy as a Muppet...she's the little girl, I could see it, so she didn't really sit well with me. I need to be able to care about the people, not just know that the plot is going to be carried out efficiently. I really had almost no doubt that the plot would make sense. What surprised me, pleasantly is that it made my ship possible again. It made me able to go forward with this Doctor.

And I wonder if Moff was aware that people like me were going to not want to go forward with his Doctor. I don't know. I think it could just be that like me he didn't like the ending for JE and thought he could throw a little more ambiguity on it.

Rae
who thinks there is no much doubt that Rose is the love of the Doctor's life. I love for example when he comes back he from the reboot he stops Amy from kissing him...as if he's no longer interested at all in romance. Also he has a little bit of a twinkle for River, too, which is new.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Y'know, I wonder if they do end up married, because it would be so typical of Moff to lead us up a blind alley there? I've argued elsewhere that River is the archetypal Mistress figure, alluring and evasive, never staying around for long enough to lose her mystery.

From a purely practical point of view, it would make sense to have her be a being capable of regeneration - unless SM has managed to put AK on a long contract.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I feel that she could be the Rani or Susan or something who has an identity that will appall him in some way. Jenny makes very little sense to me. She is the archetype mistress and one of the reasons Moff infuriates me so much is that he has Virgin, Madonna and Whore as his women. Amy was child/Virgin for all of S1 and so she was adorable and sassy and wise beyond her years and such. Now she's entering her Madonna stage as a young wife. It will be interesting to see how Moff handles her as a more complex character. We haven't actually seen that yet.

As for AK on long contract, I think we must look at the fact that Ten left her diary and I screwdriver at the library...so it is possible that a later Doctor rescues her and puts her into an Auton body. Shades of my Disheveled solution for Rose. And again there is the changeable heads out for new actors. They could have a complete plastic upgrade if need be, since River is nothing but a data stream now.

Rae

[keswindhover.livejournal.com]

Kes? Tell them you saw the Something Borrowed Chapter 1...way, way back and I'm not copying Moff, I just have Doctor Who Brain.

I solemnly swear you did it first. In fact I suggest suing Moff and the BBC for every penny they've got.

*agrees that Amelia is better than Amy. Pity about the child labour laws.*

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Of course, I am not sure how much of my original Something Blue idea will survive this finale. On the one hand, all of it could survive, because I can intersect at anytime with the Rose Universe. On the other hand, part of me wants to just have Ten and Rose together, which is now completely feasible and be done with Doctor Who fanfic...as I am not likely to write more. This is not only a good idea, but a better use of my scant physical resources which should be spent only on original work.

Glad you supported me about little Amelia. Poor Karen is sort of seriously acting challenged. Or she just didn't get what was going on with her character and was floundering and Muppet-like. Either way, more experience and less wibbly-wobbly behavior might help her get more interesting. And the Doctor definitely seems to have healed himself...somehow.

Rae

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

I just wrote my post about how much I loved seeing the Doctor happy and not alone at the end. How Rory and Amy took the initiative and just didn't allow it to end that way.

I felt that a lot of things in this rewrote or at least undermined the JE solution - as if SM was showing RTD it could have been done better. A ginger bride, a reception that the Doctor actually enjoyed, and a very clear example of someone's memories of him turning out to be not only indestructible but essential to a happy outcome...I defy anyone to watch that and not compare it to Donna's ending.

It's undeniable that whether one accepts the Rose loop or not, the Doctor is in a much healthier place now than he has been for some time. He has two companions to keep him going and River for on-off romantic intrigue (either that or she's a Time Lady - she's sticking around and what if Alex K quits?) Plus, all three of the key people around the Doctor are rather more than human. Roy has that handy shooty hand thing, Amy has superhuman psychic powers and River - well, she's just River and even on a bad hair day she kicks ass. I can go forward happily on this basis, particularly if KG learns to act.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I can go forward happily as well. The Doctor is better, as you say. And RTD should take that and stick it in his pipe to smoke it. I still feel Moff has the emotional intelligence of a cabbage, but he makes up for it by having a stellar imagination.

I will be interested in the idea of Rory still being an auton. I would figure he was not an Auton all the time, but maybe he was. We must remember that all of the season has been deleted and rebooted so anything is possible. Though, from a practical stand point, as River says the autons have changing heads so they can change actors on him if they need to do that.

Yes, Moff has left me happy at the end. And while I don't find Karen to be very compelling, even in her obviously emotional scenes...still, I can happily watch this show that Moff has given me. And I do think that yes, he was a bit frustrated by RTD leaving him with such a broken Doctor.

Rae

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Interesting that I've been hearing some gossip about RTD writing for the next series. Although people could be confusing that with Sarah Jane. He's doing a script for that, with Katy Manning and Matt as guests. Interestingly, it's called "Death of the Doctor." Trust Rusty to up the angst!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, I'm commented that I didn't want RTD messing with Jo Grant. I really felt Jo was one of the few companions that the Doctor came close to loving in a non-platonic fashion. And through her we could make a good case for a love for each lifetime. We could have had say..

Doctor 1--Susan's Grandmother
2 - Jaimie?
3 - Jo Grant
4 - Romana 2
5 - Tegan
6 - Okay, I don't think Six has one
7 - The Rani perhaps
8 - Charly (from the book canon)
9 & 10 - Rose Tyler
11 - Maybe River Song

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Notice I didn't give Sarah Jane a love interest role. That's because I do equate Sarah Jane's love with Martha's. I think that the Doctor loved her as a buddy, a pal and didn't want it to go any further so he dropped her off. This is going with RTD. I actually thought there was nothing the least bit flirty or romantic between the original series Sarah Jane and Four. But if we say there was...then it was more like she loved him and he didn't want to lead her into an uncomfortable situation.

Also somewhere in Seven or Eight we should have Bernice Summerfield, the original River Song.