Doctor Who Season 5...The River Song Paradox

[rabid1st]

Okay, I have to say, I've been quite bored with River and Moffat and the entire arc of S5. So, it's not like I've been paying very close attention to any of the details. But, I won't let a little thing like that stop me from thinking about storyline continuity...because nothing stops me from doing that, right?

More theories that are probably wrong...under this cut...

Though I wasn't far off about the Pandorica, was I?

Still, River is another kettle of fish. But I begin to see that it is possible that the reason she begged Ten not to change anything about his interactions with her...not to rewrite time...was because her time line was vital to the survival of the universe. Or the Doctor. Or both. This would create a sort of bootstrap paradox with River casually directing the Doctor to the point where he can save himself and the universe, but he can't do so directly...so he uses Amy and River and maybe even Rory to pull at his bootstraps.

I've never really held with RTD's theory that River was the Doctor's wife. Because that is where RTD's mind always went...to wives and lovers. Moffat's mind is always on the puzzle. I figured she knew the Doctor's name for some reason that HE hadn't even considered...or the reason was something like...she was there when he died permanently and so learned his name.

There are lines that are dropped here and there that I would not think are mistakes or coincidences. And there are odd details...like River knowing how to fly the TARDIS, but having no consistent reasoning for the how and why of that. The RTD explanation is that she is the most beloved companion. But, the Moff explanation could be quite a different one. It could be that she NEEDS to know how to pilot the TARDIS for the story to work. If we think about what I've been saying all along about Moff's failings with characterization, we might well apply that globally. River can fly the TARDIS because Moff needs her to fly it one day...or within the context of the show...the Doctor needs her to fly it one day.

This theory is brought to you by the letter K and by one line River utters in The Pandorica Opens. She is looking at the puppets and books and thinking about what has happened to Amy and she says, "Oh, Doctor, why do I let you out?" It is a line that is very easy to interpret as the comment of a domineering wife-figure...as if River is saying, "I let you wander the universe and you cause trouble for innocent girls."

But, I heard that line and started thinking about River as an archeologist. And the fact that so far...she hasn't MET the Doctor, yet. Where is she likely to meet him...and let him out? Well, at the Pandorica...her past...his future.

Make sure you don't change ANYTHING she tells Ten. Time cannot be rewritten to save her from the library computer at his expense. Not because she is so in love with him...but because if he changes anything...they are all doomed. That's why he gives her the Diary and photos of all his regenerations...so she won't make a mistake and end up doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. I do believe that Jacketed Doctor in Time of the Angels was a Doctor from the future or an alternative time line. He is the one controlling the TARDIS remotely and possibly the one who teaches River to fly it properly. He intersects with River and this TARDIS explosion and somehow they manage to alter events to repair the universe. Amy, of course, must remember him. I do wonder if River is Amy's long lost mother...and is set on her way by Amy's recollections...but that's just a passing fancy of mine. I also wouldn't mind if someone...River or Amy was part of the TARDIS...a sort of interface ala Disheveled Rose...but that is just my own storyline coming into my head at the wrong time.

No, I think that River sets the Doctor free of the Pandorica and that is their first meeting. He then gives her the diary and explains what she must do...over her life and they both try to stop whatever happened that caused the TARDIS to explode and set the end of the universe in motion. Part of that is that River must kill at least one version of the Doctor, and go to prison. And really...that Eleventh Hour/End of Time explosion should be the one we are referencing now. It all started pre-Amy, during the regeneration that goes wrong somehow. And we get a Doctor timeline that shouldn't be playing out as it is...with Amy in an empty house with a mostly empty character.

Rae
admitting that she is having fun at long last...but I would still rather care about the characters. I think that's why I thought of River as Amy's mom...it would give the story some last minute poignancy. Alternatively, if young Amy had died, and all this was an elaborate protest of that fact, then there would be the same sort of poignancy to it all. As it stands, it is just a lovely puzzle.

Comments

[kitsune17.livejournal.com]

He then gives her the diary and explains what she must do..

But...didn't he leave the diary in the library?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

He leaves it there...but that is long after all of this happens. He leaves it there for her...or him...to get. I am speaking here of the original BLANK diary that starts the whole process. That is the FULL diary he leaves...the one he should not read.

Rae

[kitsune17.livejournal.com]

Ah.

Time is complicated.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

I've reached the conclusion that grieving for the show I loved is pointless, and just stops me enjoying the show it is now. It is, indeed, a brilliant intellectual puzzle. I still prefer RTD's version - always will, but then I was one of those people who always found classic Who a little cold and formulaic.

As I've said previously, RTD's story had a clear ending and, if anything, went on a little too long. It was fundamentally incompatible with the show having a long-term future, and it would be very selfish of me to deny so many people pleasure by protesting that I preferred DW the movie a la RTD.

I'm so very glad David left. I couldn't bear to see Ten go through this. It has an intellectual horror about it that's completely different from the more visceral and human sufferings of Ten.

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

I'm so very glad David left. I couldn't bear to see Ten go through this. It has an intellectual horror about it that's completely different from the more visceral and human sufferings of Ten.

Amen.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well, David would have to be physically restrained from making things all EMO. His Doctor would have found some sympathy for Vincent and loads of deeper meaning in Amy's Choice. But I can see why he was tempted to stay and also decided it was right to leave. Because while he might have loved hearing about this overall story...he would also have had first hand interaction with Moff and would know that his totally devoted Doctor would seriously suffer character integrity under Moff's reign.

As I've said, more and more, Moff makes me glad that part of the Doctor went to Rose. I want to believe it is the part of him that felt empathy for others...rather than strictly the part of him that loved Rose.

Rae

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

As it stands, it is just a lovely puzzle.

Well said! it encapsulates what's good (and bad) about series 5.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Thank you. And I think if we look at the Moff run as a series of lovely puzzles and don't really concern ourselves with the characters anymore...we will like his work a lot more.

It isn't that he lacks talent and it certainly isn't that he lacks the ability to follow his own tale. He has an amazingly convoluted mind and an excellent sense of where all his pawns are...and where they will go. It is just that he has zero understanding of what makes people tick, care, tune in and watch. RTD knew how to hook people in...Moff knows how to keep all his ducks in a row.

Different skills that please different people.

Rae

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think if we look at the Moff run as a series of lovely puzzles and don't really concern ourselves with the characters anymore...we will like his work a lot more.

I think so. His storytelling is good - he just doesn't quite tell the stories I prefer. Which is okay... When I want something more to my taste I can rewatch my favourite episodes with Nine or Ten.

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

Your plotting and theorizing makes SO much sense. Which is probably why it's wrong because Uncle Rusty has taught me that Doctor Who failed logic at Uni. But I do hope you're right!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Uncle Rusty failed logic. I do believe Moff passed with flying colors. What Moff failed was Psychology. In point of fact, I think Moff could be emotionally stunted and unable to relate to other humans. He is the essential nerd in the basement who hates more popular people but makes no effort to understand WHY those people are more popular...nor does he go to any effort to please anyone...but wishes to be loved for his obnoxiousness.

Rae
who honestly believes Moff will deliver on the logic...and still not manage to please me. LOL

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

Excellent observation, as always, Rae. It's something we've noted in Moffat's Who work even before he took the helm. His characters service plot, period. And yeah, he loves teh plot. He's like Michael Crichton that way. All technobabble and cleverness, but not re-readable unless you've forgotten the plot because you don't care about the cardboard characters, and once you know the end game, it's not terribly interesting to revist.

Am I looking forward to seeing next week? Yes. Do I care in the same ZOMG I can't focus on one damned thing until next Saturday way that I did after The Stolen Earth? Not even remotely. And it's not that it's not David. I just have no emotional connection to these characters whatsoever. The closest I came to connecting was with Rory, and well, looky who's an Auton now.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yes, poor Rory. I was thinking that one way to give Moff a better chance of success would be to have a Rory/Amy romance on the side...or something that could be handed over to another writer but allow us to care. For example, next season, we could get a second companion...a male...and have a romance with the two companions develop...nothing about the Doctor in it at all. Then, we would have the Doctor following the logical story arc and the side dish of romance for those who care about that sort of thing.

But really, truly, I think Moff does THIS sort of thing well...this tangled timeline story. It is the same general idea behind Blink and Silence in the Library...after a season or two...people are going to have him all figured out...just like I have him. And they won't really care that much about the story because it will be so clinically precise that it will be predictable. I think, as I've said, he has one more season in him. Then the ratings will be so bad they will only keep the show alive during a last minute scramble for something to change...have a romance with the Doctor they will say in the hopes that THAT is it...but romance in Moff's hands...won't work.

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

I think she kills him. Weather or not she's the Rani or a jealous lover, I honestly think she kills him. I think She set the whole thing up with ten in the library so he'd leave Rose. So in a sense, she killed Rose too. Isn't that how it always works? I see it all the time in the stories we broadcast. The crazy, jealous spouse comes home to find someone with their beloved and end up killing both. In this case, Rose was in the way. This is why I say Rose's tale didn't end on Bad Wolf Bay.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh, it would be so nice to believe that Moff is still interested in Rose, but I am afraid that would be the one thing he could do that would truly surprise (and delight) me.

Sadly, I think it is far simpler than that...yes, I believe River does kill him. The Doctor would be "the best man she's ever known" who she kills. She also sets him free though...to begin it all. That is the part we are about to see. The later parts will come...later...probably in S2 or when Matt's run as the Doctor ends.

And the "love that lasts a thousand years" is just Moff telling us instead of showing us again. Probably he thinks what River has shown IS love...and I suppose it could well be because we are not privy to her emotions or her heart...so what can we tell about them? Nothing!

I rather think that I could write an essay on this called Nerdgasm...about how River is the perfect woman according to those slightly smelly, antisocial men in their mother's basements...of which Moff is definitely one. She is an action heroine--Lara Croft but accessible...they wouldn't really want Lara Croft because she would walk all over them with high heels. They don't want women who ARE smarter than them...only women who are witty and funny and brave and fun and most importantly of all...completely undemanding.

Rae

[bohemianrose24.livejournal.com]

Hi! Been ages since I commented, but I had to on this one. I agree quite a lot with what you've said. But I had a potential realization about River after watching saturday's episode. One thing Moff is showing us, subtly but still, and not telling us, is that the entirety of the Doctor's relationship with River is a construct. Possibly just like Amy's childhood. Because their relationship is all out of order, the Doctor knows he has to give her the book and the screwdriver, but also that he will have to teach her to fly the TARDIS and tell her his name. These are significant moments in their relationship, all of which happen not necessarily out of any great emotional motivation but out of pre-ordained necessity. So far, neither Ten nor Eleven have shown any great affection for River. Admiration, yes. But most of the time he just seems annoyed by her complicating things and defacing history. So what if she's his wife? At this point it seems like it would only be because he knows it's supposed to be and not an emotional investment. River doesn't even know, and thinks they're in love and that's what makes her play into everything she's supposed to do. That could even be the thing that corrupts the Doctor. I don't know, maybe this is one of those crack theories that don't make sense, it just seems like their relationship is not real.

Hi! Nice to hear from you!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

So what if she's his wife? At this point it seems like it would only be because he knows it's supposed to be and not an emotional investment. River doesn't even know, and thinks they're in love and that's what makes her play into everything she's supposed to do.

It is. This is what has bothered me (I will even say nauseated me) about River from the very start. There is no possible way that her "relationship" with the Doctor can be unsullied by the construction of it. He KNOWS what he must do and where she must end up...so she is a pawn. This makes her sense of smug certainty that she is special really an inside joke for the audience. And I don't particular care for the mind that could come up with that idea for how to treat a person. That's not love. I would argue that you are correct and the Doctor is corrupted by this relationship as well.

He knows that he must let it play out or rather, he has agreed tacitly to let it play out naturally. But, yes, there is no way that they can have a meaningful relationship. I think though that the sense of unreality you are picking up is possibly caused by Moff's handicaps, again. In other words, I do think that these incredibly shallow relationships are all he's capable of writing. So, if he really intends for us to see River not as a 1000 year love but as a pathetic pawn in this temporal dance...it is only because he is incapable of writing anything else.

I have yet to see him create even one character with emotional depth. Like everyone else I had assumed that he had with Jack...but I went back to check and the Jack we are introduced to is nothing at all like the Jack we have after RTD and his writers finished with him. That Jack, that Moff created...is like River...or Amy...sassy and fun and sexy and even witty. The only attempt that I've seen Moff make is with Nine and Rose when Nine agreed to Dance...and if you go back and look at that...isolated it in your mind...you will see that Nine is very much a child there. I liked that at the time...but...now I believe that it is because Moff never matured enough to write adult emotions.