PONY COUNTDOWN...DAY 6...THE END OF TIME, Part 1

[rabid1st]

Brought to you by INTO THE SKY Pony...who flies around on lightning bolts.

Needless to say, there will be SPOILERS under this cut...

Oh, we are poised on the brink of it, my friends. We are poised right on the brink. Let's hope that this time...RTD got it right all the way to the last moment of the story. Because, once again, he's started it perfectly, hasn't he?

Confession time...I cried. Twice. The first time was ten minutes in...just as I did with Journey's End. I cried because, let's face it, I couldn't have written that resurrection of the Master or what the Doctor was told any better myself. I can't tell you how much I love being surprised and delighted by someone's writing. I was so filled with admiration for Russell and, frankly, apprehension about being so close to the mark on how things were unfolding...that...I had to pause the episode and have a bit of a weep. I really was expecting it might be rubbish, this episode. But, of course, Russell spins a fantastic set-up to his tale. It's the endings he has trouble getting quite right.

The second time I cried was over the cafe scene...because...it's not Donna that he needs. Or, well, it is...because the Doctor/Donna shall set him free. But while I am sure that little nod of his was an admission that "good old Donna" would make him laugh again, looking in David's eyes, seeing that tremble of his lower lip, you knew that TEN was missing his Rose. He almost says her name there. And you can see the war in him between his need and his duty.

He needs Rose to hold him and tell him that he is still HER Doctor and she will love him forever. How do we know that? Well, because of what else he says in that scene. Wilf says that Donna is getting married and the new fella is nice enough, but she's so sad. And Ten says, "She's got him" as if he's hoping that will afford some consolation. And Wilf says, "She's making due." AND (sniff) the Doctor says, in a beautifully hollow voice, "Aren't we all?" BECAUSE...he's just making due, too. He hopes Rose and Donna are happy, but he knows that he will never have what he so desperately wants...that life with Rose.

Okay, so I firmly believe that Wilf is connected to Donna and Rose (because remember that Rose and Wilf bonded during The Stolen Earth...Wilf reminds us of that when he mentions the paint gun) and so that the thing that was happening in JE is still happening now. Season 4 continues...and Rose, I'll bet you, is still trying to save her Doctor. The big old coincidence is brought up again...and I think it is still the Doctor/Donna happening and I do think they have the solution to save creation. And that solution is everyone letting go of the DISTANT past...of Gallifrey. Again we have prophecy mentioned, the Doctor's death is fortold and the knocking. So, following that line of logic...Donna must die. The process is starting already. But she will also live on forever if they unite her with Ten 2...so...she won't really die. Neither of them...the Doctor nor Donna will REALLY die. They will be renewed for the new age.

I believe the old woman, appearing in the telly like Rose, could be Rose. That seems a bit obvious, like a child would figure that. And it does worry me a bit, because I am thinking that she is very old and that means we could get SOCKS! However, it is possible that my initial feeling is true...and the Doctor was with Rose all the time, in Pete's World...he was the person manning the controls to get her back to Earth...and she and Mickey and Jackie...knew that they couldn't tell him anything. Just like she told Wilf not to tell him. My hope is that Rose is trying to keep HER Doctor alive...and has been trying to do that all along...by making sure certain events happen.

Of course, it is also possible that woman is some sort of Guardian or a good Time Lord, fighting against the end of time.

And let me just say...I really dislike TIME LORDS! Sorry! But I nearly cried happy tears again at the end, even as I cringed, because they are doing EXACTLY what I said they would be doing...sacrificing all of time to save themselves. Vengeful gods, indeed. I believe they intend to do just what the Master did...save themselves at the expense of all else. Because the Time Lords were pretty much self-centered bastards to a man (sparing Romana and the Doctor) and here they are acting exactly to type. So, I do hope that the Doctor sends them packing...back into the void of the past where they belong.

I think that Dalek Ca'an broke the time lock a bit...and then realized what he'd done. It is possible the Master has been hearing the Narrator drumming his staff on the floor of the Senate...and so the four times may not be the ones we heard already...they could be the other reality of no end to Gallifrey coming to pass. The whole lot of the Time Lords are planning to save themselves at the last second...probably holding time in a repeating pattern in that locked bubble. Yes, this is the Doctor's greatest temptation, but I believe he must reject it.

My passion about this point means RTD could leave me devastated at the end of this with old Rose and old Ten 2, having lived a happy life, and the Time Lords back and Ten regenerating into Matt Smith without ever having the life he wants. And here, I must say that nightbeast is spot on about Ten needing to actually die. Before this episode, I was on the fence about him going to Rose and facing HER death. But I think HE needs to die because he is so very afraid of it...and in THAT form he now wears...he's lived too long. The time of the Time Lords is over...and a new Doctor should be born.

It could happen, the Doctor/Donna. It could still happen, so...let's have a little pony hope today...because this is Christmas. Wellllll, Boxing Day. And this episode was so very good. So very...VERY...promising.

The brilliant RTD touches...like another set of green/red people with some sort of silly name and height differences. And the Master's mad plan which is both horrific and just plain crazycakes. John Simm in some of those outfits. The pink frock with black stockings and heels...so HIM! He must have had a blast in costuming. Of course, some of them were definitely CGI. But still, he was great. Lucy was great. Naismith...not so much. But Wilf was great. And DAVID...wonderful.

Who could look at David in that cafe and not think that he should be allowed to retire to a well earned happy life? That he should be allowed to die peacefully after a full life with his Rose? And who could look at Wilf and his friends and think that the Doctor would feel Rose Tyler at 75 was a burden to him? He would adore her all her days. And she would adore him. And anyone that thought he looked too young for her would be completely ignored as they went along arm in arm. But really, I want him to go and age and be happy. And I think he could if Ten 2 and Donna step into the Immortality Gate and become one.

Come on, RTD! We are on the very brink of epic television. Get it right this time! PONY! PONY! PONY!

Comments

[mrs_roy.livejournal.com]

Could not have said it better myself! Bravo. Long live 10/Rose.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

I'm surprised you liked the resurrection of the Master so much. I thought it was the worst DW scene I'd ever seen.

Anyway, my theory, let me show you it.

Clearly we're in an untenable timeline, and the Doctor will know this and need to sacrifice himself, which he may even do willingly. I've a feeling that Wilf might be his dad, or at least in a position to plead for clemency for him. I'm convinced by the rumour that Claire Bloom is the Doctor's mother, and his parents were a human/Time Lord union in canon, so they'd be positive about the Doctor and Rose. I keep recalling that his mother's name was Penelope Gate. Penelope was the wife of Odysseus, and a key reference in The Time Traveller's Wife, as well as a well-known mythic embodiment of the male need to wander and the clashing female need to commit.

(Interestingly, I received a book called "Odysseus Unbound" for Christmas. This story has always resonated with me).

The Doctor will be granted a concession - that he's allowed to have a human life with Rose. I think he'll also be allowed some time to tie up loose ends for his other companions. But here's where the TV history gets made - I believe that, since the Time Lords are back and therefore the walls between universes are open, there's no reason why the TARDIS couldn't head straight back to Bad Wolf Bay at the end of Doomsday. I think that reunion scene was filmed back in 2006. And I love that idea because I don't want him to go back to Rose as she was in JE.

You may be right about seeing an elderly Rose on the TV. I think it's likely that we'll see David at Rose's deathbed as a coda to the episode, and that then he will return to the New Year's Eve scene in our universe. Here, on New Year's Eve 2004, he'll tweak the timeline so that Rose realises when she's sucked away from him that he loves her, even if he hadn't said so, and he'll return for her. After all, why else go back to that moment and intensify his grief? We know he brings Rose a message of hope.

And then, his work done, he'll regenerate. Or possibly even die, because I think Matt Smith could be the son of Ten and Rose, bequeathed the TARDIS, the name of Doctor, and a fantastic start in life with two parents who loved each other beyond measure, just as the Doctor's own parents did.

[mrs_roy.livejournal.com]

Ohh my god, how perfect is this! Didn't even think Time Lords - go back and forth and be home in time for tea. I love it.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes! It definitely has opened up the possiblity that they Time Lords will send him back...or that he could go back...and then the whole time line with WRONG Rose might never happen. Or...Rose could be behaving in an odd fashion in JE...because she's hiding big things from the Doctor. Either way...I do think we are on the brink of Pony Possibilities.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Your theory is a likely one, of course. While I was watching I thought that there was a good chance that we were going to simply change the time line for most of the last few years. And I still do think that...I don't think the Time Lords are coming back, though. I think this DOES open the gate for them to return at a later date...but I do think that what they are doing is destroying Time to come back, so they will have to be stopped. <<--admittedly THIS IS my almost constant belief that they shouldn't come back influencing my thinking.

You have a lot of the book canon, I guess. Or you've been around a bit to spoiler sites. I do think that Wilf could be a Time Lord...like Rassilon...who is most likely in my opinion...but to have him be the Doctor's father would be grand, because that WOULD make the Doctor/Donna pretty much the Doctor.

I wrote the above before my own sleepless night...and before I saw the preview of next week. Now that I've spent the night speculating and have seen the preview of next week...I have a couple of tenuous theories. Like you, it seems to me that we need to change the whole course of some of this history. Certainly the Master's hijacking of the human race needs to be reversed.

You will notice that there is a scene set in a completely white space...with the Time Lords and the Doctor and the Doctor turns and fires that gun at someone. I think the person he shoots...is Jack. I believe the Time Lords mean to destroy time itself, as they have said the would...and simply rebuild it again. Because they would think that was within their power...so the story is about gods gone mad. Also, they, like the Master and Ten would not want to die. I think the reason that Ten feels that way is that 1) he's never lived, as he would define living...having the life he wants...and 2) all of his people are dead and it really IS time for him to go...or change.

Once the Time Lords destroy most of Time itself...the only thing left will be Time Lords. But Jack is a fixed point, a fact, an abomination...and I bet he comes sauntering up out of that white nothing and says howdy. And Ten shoots him...because that...will disrupt whatever the Time Lords are doing...because JACK...will reset.

I think that will reveal that Bad Wolf isn't really ROSE...but Rose with the Time Vortex inside her...and that the Time Vortex has been working on this little plan for some time. Via Rose and Dalek Ca'an and Ten and Wilf and Donna and Ten 2 and Jack. All of the pieces sort of click together...to stop THIS event coming...the darkness Rose and Ca'an and others are always going on about in vague ways...the End of Time.

I think that the Cactus people were not effected by the Master's duplication plan...and the might be helped along by Donna to reverse whatever has happened to the humans. I mean...it seems to me that you could reverse that machine...recalibrate it...just pop the Master back inside and go...whoops! That the Time Lords celebrated the death of every person on Earth...to me...seals their fate and means they won't be coming back this time. However, I think the fact that they ARE out there...opens the door for a later return, certainly.

And finally, the spoiler photos...I still rather believe those are of the Doctor/Donna. I think Jack will reverse the end of Time...being a fixed and immutable point. I think Donna and the Cactus people will reverse whatever happened to all the humans...except Donna will be burning up as she does this...and...Ten will come back to find her dying. I do feel that Wilf never killing a man could be important...it seems like the Woman was encouraging him to kill...but I bet she wasn't. She said he would need to take up arms. I bet she was underscoring that Donna was a person who ALSO wouldn't use a gun. Even though we see Wilf urging Ten to kill the Master. I bet Wilf doesn't kill him. And...that means that Donna is the right person. But I do think that we might just remove the burning part of her via some method...pocket watch or gate. I think that Donna will get married at the end...and a Doctor/Donna will attend.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

The and They are apparently giving me loads of trouble today...yet another fun manifestation of my exhaustion. Just substitute whichever seems appropriate in the above comments.

Oh, and I should say...I completely agree that the Master's resurrection was craptastic...but that's what I loved about it. See, I had pretty much envisioned him doing that life sucking thing with a hand and the ring and Lucy. So...RTD using chemicals...and some residual (I'm not going to say DNA...because that would be stupid)...but some sort of genetic trace ALA that magic kiss the Doctor gave Martha...is just...so RTD! I never would have written it that way...but he gets the job done and makes several important Time Lord/Human connections.

Probably the most important one to me...was his contempt for humanity. As that contempt is echoed by the Narrator...and that is not something that I believe the Doctor would agree about. Also, the Narrator mentions the Master is going to do even more to save his people. We know that he hears the drumming. We know now that it is the heartbeat of a Time Lord, echoing through to the Master's brain. All of those Masters on Earth...would make for a great way to focus the Time Lords on one spot...and exchange places with the humans. Let the Master die...and every human...so that they can return.

They would be using the Master, to the very end...for their ends. And what do they care about those miserable little humans? The important thing is that the Time Lords return and go on as they always have gone on...ruling time and space. Only, my hope is that Donna and Jack and Rose and Ten can stop them. And...maybe take that awful drumming noise out of the Master's head, too. Remember...Donna has a drumming in HER head as well...a heartbeat.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

One more note of confusion...when I said you'd been reading book canon...it was about Penelope Gate. Interesting, that...because of RTD insisting on his Penny idea...which would ring very close to this if we were always to end up with this Doctor/Donna situation...the Doctor/Penny would be even closer to that mark you are suggesting.

The appearance of a definite Mom figure would lend a lot of weight to the whole concept of a pony...one where the Doctor and Rose have children and a family. And of course, if we retrofit back to Doomsday than the out of character bits for Rose in JE are explained away...or never happened.

I do think you are spot on about the walls of the universes though...definitely would be weakened by this End of Time business. So the door is open. And it would be very like RTD to make the "Gate" that is waiting for the Doctor...his mother Penelope Gate...if that's her name. She would be waiting metaphorically in that case...as Rose would be like her...as you say.

Oh, and I too adore Penelope in the mythology...and do very much acquaint her with Rose...who is a constant and patient love waiting on a distant shore for her wanderer to come home.

[asahifirsa.livejournal.com]

I actually had to look at the cafe scene because I couldn't watch the pain... it looked so private and I felt like I was intruding... strange to feel like that when watching TV. I don't want to know what David channeled to get that across.

I didn't for a second thing that the old lady could be Rose, but I did think her appearance (and disappearance) are very Rose-like. So why didn't I even consider that? RTD said in the confidential (which I haven't see yet) that her costume is very important so everyone on Gallifrey Base is saying she's the White Lady of something or other and time. I've never watched old Who so I have no idea...

Oh but the wait until New Year... if I get hit by a truck in the meantime I'll haunt the Internet... :)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I really am so very glad I avoid places like where the fandom gathers to discuss these things. I simply do not want to be upset or have my own creativity corrupted by other people's ideas. But any old school person seeing someone in all white would think of the White Guardian. The Guardians are more powerful than the Time Lords and could fix this problem.

Like Cat, above, I am interested in the Doctor wearing the same suit and tie and shirt that he wore for Doomsday...because that does open up the idea of them having filmed the whole reunion at the time Billie left. And yes, Cat is right about the wall of the universe being down now because of the Time Lords returning...so Ten 2 and Rose can cross...and the Doctor could go back to the original beach. There is no reason at all why Ten couldn't BE there...when Ten is dropped off...because Rose could only know that something was going to happen with Ten 2...not what.

I still strongly feel the Time Lords will not be coming back. Because I am prejudice against them. But also...their methods are steeped in evil just now...they are not our friends, even if we are excited to see them. Every Time Lord impulse in this first episode was wrong...the Master's, the Doctor's and the Narrator's impulses were all destructive and self-centered and full of hubris.

So, I feel the day will mostly be saved by the little people...and that makes me think that the woman in white is an old Rose Tyler...and that her costume is important because she is NOT in Time Lord garb but is in regular human clothing. So, she's human. Wilf isn't mentioning her...which means...the Doctor won't know about her...until it is time for his decision. I really think that all along...since Ten arrived...it has been important for him to make the RIGHT choice...to be more human than Time Lord. So, if that is his mother and not Rose...still...I think she's saying he should go with his human roots...not his Gallifreyan ones.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I must say, I agree with you about the pain. I have watched it five times now, at least, but it is very hard to watch...David really does channel something quite profound about doing the wrong thing.

Rae

[maniacalshen.livejournal.com]

I believe the old woman, appearing in the telly like Rose, could be Rose. That seems a bit obvious, like a child would figure that.

Hey now. :-p I was in way too much denial to figure that. My only thought was, "Time Lord? Since she can appear to only Wilf? Who knows?" and that was it.

But I had a few things to say about this episode myself, the most pertinent being:
Oh, Doctor. As he talks about regeneration to Wilfred, I can't help but think, "This is a man who wants to live out one last life with Rose Tyler and die." Oh, for him to bodyswitch with TenII! And David's acting in that scene in general kind of breaks my heart.

"She's making do."

"Aren't we all." YES, AREN'T WE.


So on that, I agree wholeheartedly. And I think you have some hope for your thoughts on the Time Lords, as they're clearly being betrayed as not-good people. And Ten denying the Time Lords anything... well, even if nothing else we want happens, that would definitely qualify as serious character growth.

I wasn't much on the Master's resurrection, though.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

To me, that it could be Rose seems almost too obvious. But, I think the hair, age and diction would fool most people. And I sort of like the idea that for a brief span of time...Ten might think that she was beyond him...or WE might think that, because we might forget that HE can time travel. They did make a big deal out of telling us that Rose's universe was running AHEAD of that one. So, Rose might look older or younger depending on where she jumped from...or projected from in her own time line.

Meanwhile, yes, if the Doctor could act in defiance of the Time Lords that would surely show us that he has grown up and is ready to be on his own. It reflects back, doesn't it, to the "everyone leaves home sometime" that Rose declared on Space Base Six. The Doctor does need to grow up and change for this new age of personal responsibility before him. No more clinging to the old ways of Lording it over Time. Though, of course, he will still have the wisdom and the heritage...he should shed a bit of the "I know it all you stupid apes" arrogance. And I think he HAS shed that...coming into contact with it again...will remind him that it isn't JUST the Master that he wasn't insync with...it was his ENTIRE race.

Or...so I hope!

Rae

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

And here, I must say that nightbeast is spot on about Ten needing to actually die.

I get Pony Points! :snigger:

Through my 'flu I have very little to say about the episode, except I want to shake June Whitfield's hand.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh, you get a lot more than a few points...you get Pony Kudos in a great big gift basket if the Doctor goes home to Rose to die.

And I think we all want to shake June's hand...bless her.

I just loved the fact that this episode clearly establishes that Rose growing old...or anyone else growing old...doesn't make them useless or pointless or no fun or not who they always were.

Rae

[adriana-is.livejournal.com]

See, now I have to go back and rewatch Turn Left, The Stolen Earth and Journey's End to try and connect what you're saying.

When I saw Claire Bloom, I immediately thought "Rose"!!

That scene with David at the cafe just made me cry so hard. Damn, can that man act or what? I am going to miss Ten so much.

I sincerely hope we get this pony.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, David is such a wonderful actor. He made me blub so hard in that scene, because he really made me feel for the Doctor being all alone. And I don't think Time Lords can help him...because he would still be all alone among them...he always was. He needs to be held for a very long time and have children and rest. And only Rose can do that for him.

Rae
happy that someone else immediately thought ROSE when they saw Claire Bloom...though I will say that she does also look like that one Time Lord who had her face covered. Still, I think I will go with RTD telling us her clothing is important...she's human.

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

Finally got to see TEoT pt 1 so I can read all the spoilery posts now! :D

It's funny, I watched the Confidential from TWoM just before (because I'd forgotten to watch it before - d'oh!) and there's all this talk about what a big deal it is that the Doctor has overstepped his bounds and gotten all power drunk...and all I could think was, this was probably the *mildest* version of Time Lord crazy that we've seen. I mean, look at Omega...one of the greatest Time Lords of all time...and UTTERLY BATSHIT CRAZY with power by the end.

It doesn't take all that much of a leap to think that the Time Lords saw oblivion and decided that maybe sacrificing themselves to take out the Daleks (which didn't even work!) wasn't such a hot idea. That they are coming back, not as benevolent, let's-save-the-universe beings, but instead as selfishly trying to save themselves? BRILLIANT.

Anyway, the cafe scene was utterly heartbreaking. Poor Ten. You can tell he's just so tired of everything, tired of fucking up or not being able to help, tired of losing everyone, tired of hurting all the time. And yet, he doesn't want to die either. When he talked about everything that makes him "him" being gone once he regenerates, I just wanted to reach into my screen and give him a great big hug. Yes, intellectually, he knows he has a good chance of surviving, but he won't be the same man. It makes Nine's little speech at the end of PotW even more poignant.

*wibble*

What else...oh, yes, I thoroughly enjoyed all of Simm's costumes. I immediately thought that he must have had a hoot filming all of those little pieces. Heh.

Is the woman in the TV Rose? Ooh. Maybe...I was thinking that she was a Time Lord (Romana, maybe?) trying to warn someone about what the Time Lords were up to. But it would make sense if she was elder!Rose, too. Her quick vamoose in the church and her appearance on the TV completely echoed Rose's appearances during season 4. Hm.

It *could* be Rose and still allow us to have our Pony, too. Maybe at the end of those many years with the Doctor, Rose goes back to give those few cryptic clues to Wilf. Assuming that the Doctor is on track to ultimately end up with her, at least for those remaining years of her life, maybe this is all part of *keeping* him on that track. I mean, how many times have we, in fanfic, used the timey-whimey device of the Doctor or Rose going back and giving messages to their younger selves?

The pony is still a good possibility at this point! *thinks positively*

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

This is what I think. It *could* be Rose and still allow us to have our Pony, too. Maybe at the end of those many years with the Doctor, Rose goes back to give those few cryptic clues to Wilf. Assuming that the Doctor is on track to ultimately end up with her, at least for those remaining years of her life, maybe this is all part of *keeping* him on that track.

That it could be we get an appearance at the end of ElderRose...as all of the Ten 2 people are hoping...but instead of it being HER and Ten 2...it is her and Ten...both old and happy...because they worked out how to save him. I was thinking that might NOT work...because I think Wilf is going to die...but I think also...he might spill the beans about that woman before he goes. And then...when Donna is getting married...the Woman in White could appear to her...and she could be all...OMG! And then the Doctor could appear, too. And say they were just wishing her a happy life.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I could see Wilf spilling the beans just as the Doctor is ready to sacrifice himself...Wilf could go..."But she said you might not have to die." And the Doctor could go..."Who said that?" And Wilf could go..."That woman." And Donna and Ten could both chorus, "What woman?" and "Was she blonde?" And then Wilf could get impatient and sort of tell them about it...which would give the Doctor a bit of much needed hope.