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rabid1stL.O.V.E. with all capital letters. And it is also about regeneration. Time and time again my pony pals have asked me the question that is asked of them..."Why is it okay for Rose to love Ten and not Ten 2? Isn't this just like what happened when Nine regenerated?"
He's a duplicate Doctor...better than Ten in a lot of ways...he can tell Rose he loves her, he would never leave her, he's just the same man inside. So what if a little bitty part of him is from Donna? So what if, according to Ten, he made the wrong choice about those Daleks and that means that NO...he doesn't THINK JUST LIKE TEN!?
He's still the same man...so Rose will love him...because she's trapped there with him and she has no choice so they might as well be happy about it, right? It is the best we can hope for...right?
Uhm...NO! Hell, NO! IT is nowhere near the 'best we can hope for' and it is, in fact, a living Hell that Rose and Ten 2 have been given. But that's not the part of this I want to address.
I want to address the idea that because you can come to love a new Doctor as much as you loved the old Doctor that Rose will come to love Ten 2. After all he is there with Rose so she will learn to love him...and isn't this the same as her learning to love Ten after Nine died?
No...this is NOT a regeneration situation at all. It isn't even close. This is like the opposite of what happened in Parting of the Ways.
Ten didn't become Ten 2.
Ten 2 was what happened when Ten refused to regenerate.
Ten is still out there somewhere...and ROSE knows it. If she ignores him still needing her...and finds happiness with Ten 2...she is betraying her L.O.V.E.
Imagine if you will this scene in Parting of the Ways: Nine puts Rose on the TARDIS, sending her home to her mother, telling her to have a fantastic life...and on the ship is a duplicate HIM...that looked like Ten. The holograph of Nine tells Rose to just be happy with this new Doctor.
Nine is still back on the space station, you understand, confronting those Daleks...but he's given Rose a replacement who is frankly pretty darned cool. Does she "come to love" the new guy?
He's handsome and more like her, more fun loving, someone she can love without reservation. All she has to do is go home to Jackie and Mickey and forget all about Nine dying there on the space station. Nine has given her his permission...in fact his blessing...that she go be happy with the new fellow.
And we will all just learn to love this NEW Doctor...right? Because it would be okay for Rose to just forget about Nine, right? Sure, Nine is going to die all alone on that space station...but Rose has a Doctor with all his memories...so she doesn't need to go back and try to save Nine. Do we still admire a Rose who simply gives up and walks away? I suppose, some people would admire her because Ten is...really more fun anyway.
THAT is the situation we have...make no mistake about it.
Ten didn't regenerate into Ten 2. He didn't allow Rose to learn to love him again and trust that he was the same man. In fact, Ten 2 isn't the same man. He makes different choices, choices Ten would never make. And yet, Ten insists that Ten 2 thinks like him...except he's filled with rage and committed genocide and is really more like Nine, it seems?
Ten locked Rose away with a broken duplicate/surrogate of himself...and then went off to make some pretty questionable choices of his own. And he's decided to die alone. Sorry, but Rose Tyler loves him too much, in my opinion, to simply forget that he's still out there suffering and go on with her life. And if she had made that choice with Nine...I don't think any of us would be watching the show today.
He's a duplicate Doctor...better than Ten in a lot of ways...he can tell Rose he loves her, he would never leave her, he's just the same man inside. So what if a little bitty part of him is from Donna? So what if, according to Ten, he made the wrong choice about those Daleks and that means that NO...he doesn't THINK JUST LIKE TEN!?
He's still the same man...so Rose will love him...because she's trapped there with him and she has no choice so they might as well be happy about it, right? It is the best we can hope for...right?
Uhm...NO! Hell, NO! IT is nowhere near the 'best we can hope for' and it is, in fact, a living Hell that Rose and Ten 2 have been given. But that's not the part of this I want to address.
I want to address the idea that because you can come to love a new Doctor as much as you loved the old Doctor that Rose will come to love Ten 2. After all he is there with Rose so she will learn to love him...and isn't this the same as her learning to love Ten after Nine died?
No...this is NOT a regeneration situation at all. It isn't even close. This is like the opposite of what happened in Parting of the Ways.
Ten didn't become Ten 2.
Ten 2 was what happened when Ten refused to regenerate.
Ten is still out there somewhere...and ROSE knows it. If she ignores him still needing her...and finds happiness with Ten 2...she is betraying her L.O.V.E.
Imagine if you will this scene in Parting of the Ways: Nine puts Rose on the TARDIS, sending her home to her mother, telling her to have a fantastic life...and on the ship is a duplicate HIM...that looked like Ten. The holograph of Nine tells Rose to just be happy with this new Doctor.
Nine is still back on the space station, you understand, confronting those Daleks...but he's given Rose a replacement who is frankly pretty darned cool. Does she "come to love" the new guy?
He's handsome and more like her, more fun loving, someone she can love without reservation. All she has to do is go home to Jackie and Mickey and forget all about Nine dying there on the space station. Nine has given her his permission...in fact his blessing...that she go be happy with the new fellow.
And we will all just learn to love this NEW Doctor...right? Because it would be okay for Rose to just forget about Nine, right? Sure, Nine is going to die all alone on that space station...but Rose has a Doctor with all his memories...so she doesn't need to go back and try to save Nine. Do we still admire a Rose who simply gives up and walks away? I suppose, some people would admire her because Ten is...really more fun anyway.
THAT is the situation we have...make no mistake about it.
Ten didn't regenerate into Ten 2. He didn't allow Rose to learn to love him again and trust that he was the same man. In fact, Ten 2 isn't the same man. He makes different choices, choices Ten would never make. And yet, Ten insists that Ten 2 thinks like him...except he's filled with rage and committed genocide and is really more like Nine, it seems?
Ten locked Rose away with a broken duplicate/surrogate of himself...and then went off to make some pretty questionable choices of his own. And he's decided to die alone. Sorry, but Rose Tyler loves him too much, in my opinion, to simply forget that he's still out there suffering and go on with her life. And if she had made that choice with Nine...I don't think any of us would be watching the show today.
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(no subject)
Date: 2009-12-25 12:23 am (UTC)The only people who believe TenII is the Doctor are Ten and TenII himself. Even Donna wouldn't believe he was the proper Doctor, as evidence by her line "We should wait for the Doctor".
She couldn't love him. It is a choice thrust upon her and if we know anything about Rose it is that she will not sit still and let him make her choices for her. She didn't rest after he told her impossible. They went about building that dimention cannon even before the worlds started to collapse. I am quite sure she and TenII have come up with soemthing to get her back.
Because I cannot see him as being evil. I just see him as being sort of the twin brother.. similar but not the same.
I think RTD has realised what he has done to the characters, and I do hope he does fix it properly. With the first part to air tomorrow, I am waiting with bated breath.
And as I said. Fluffy, happy pony icon, in hopes of a fluffy happy pony outcome.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-12-25 10:20 pm (UTC)I've never been as angry at Donna as I was during that line. When I usually love her dearly.
Am I misremembering?
And Rae, that's a fantastic analogy.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-12-25 02:41 am (UTC)The same might have applied if there were Really No Way she could get back to Ten... but since they've proven Rose can do the impossible and get back to Ten's universe once, it makes no sense that she wouldn't try to do it again.
Exactly This...
Date: 2009-12-25 04:11 am (UTC)Though I do doubt that she would ever come to love Ten 2...even if she was trapped there forever...because he would be a constant reminder of her failure. I can't see how Rose would think she hadn't failed Ten. I know other people think that Ten deserves to be alone because it was his decision. And I would agree that if there were no extenuating circumstances...maybe he deserves to be alone. But Rose came back to him because he needed her...and he still does need her. And so I can't see her ever just giving up...it's not in her nature.
And frankly...it WAS pretty darned impossible for Rose to get back to Nine on that space station. Just as it was impossible for her to get back to Ten this last time...so...yes...as you say...it really is not in her nature to admit defeat and just learn to love Ten 2.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-12-25 05:01 am (UTC)Ten locked Rose away with a broken duplicate/surrogate of himself...and then went off to make some pretty questionable choices of his own. ... Sorry, but...
You mention "choices", well, IMHO, it's only Ten who believes that Ten.2 made the wrong choice (really, only one: to end the Dalek threat) ...from Ten's skewed P.O.V., because he couldn't make that choice: his internal drama wouldn't permit it. Nor, it seems, can he permit anyone other than himself the freedom of action and choice (yes, I am still mad about Harriet Jones.), so he eradicates, destroys and vanquishes or abandons (!) anyone who tries to live and think differently ... independently ...and I suddenly notice that he feels justified in doing so to his erstwhile friends and allies, but not, apparently, to his actual enemies! What muddled logic is this!? [With the exception of the Family of Blood, of course, which was written for Seven and adapted for Ten.] Each time I view PotO, I shout at Ten when he tells Donna that people shouldn't be certain about knowing right from wrong -- because I disagree. Good vs Bad may be gray, but there's a chasm separating right from wrong, and our guts can usually tell us which side of the gulf we're on.
I do not believe that Ten.2 was wrong. For the first time in New Who, we saw the Doctor take decisive action. Not being passive or agonizing or bailing when the moment comes (Nine), or being motivated by guilt or vindictiveness or hubris (Ten). If that's an indication of anything, it must be that the regenerated Doctor has recovered from his post-traumatic stress syndrome and is now ready to venture out again (under the auspices of Moffat.).
I've been re-watching all 4 seasons in recent weeks, trying to get a feeling for where the story will go from where it's been, and I have to say that I'd be glad to have a new vibe for the Doctor. I thought he'd found possibilities with Donna, 'til that maddening ending of JE mucked it up.
And as your post is about LOVE, I want to tell you how much I ♥ your suggestion that RTD might use a slight cheat for the final episodes, by having us cheer for the Doctor with Wilf, keeping us thinking that he's Ten and then learning that all the while he's been Ten.2 and therefore actually, truly, rightfully Eleven! I've been rather pinning my hopes to that.
I can't speak to spoilers or clips of scenes, but I can appreciate good storytelling. I am grateful to you for the idea. If RTD doesn't know enough to "switch Doctors" and to get us to accept Eleven by throwing us in with him at the deep end, well, then, yours will be my personal canon instead.
My aching thumbs are begging me to end here. Rants and Gushes to be continued at a later date...I continue to read all your posts.
:-)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-12-25 05:11 am (UTC)I think destroying the Daleks and Davros was not only prudent and part of the prophecy given by one who had seen all of time...it was also doing the work OF a Time Lord. After all...Nine tells us that if you make one of those changing the course of history mistakes (which Dalek Ca'an definitely did when he brought Davros out of the time lock) then...the Time Lords would set it right so that the reapers don't come and eat the universe.
If you ask me Ten 2 was setting things right...and Ten has since done 2 things to unravel the universe...1) he didn't let Donna die as the prophecy demanded...and 2) he saved Adelaide.
Ten 2...is the right and proper Eleven...and he just needs his body back. ABSOLUTELY!
But we can only hope the our original quiver over how Ten treated Harriet Jones (and I did quiver with you....despite truly loving Ten, myself)...was the exact reaction RTD expected us to have. I do think, given what happened in JE and Waters of Mars...that RTD has always intended Ten to go too far and have to be pulled back from the edge of crazy. My hope is that RTD intends to use that loving relationship with Rose as well as the other relationships Ten developed to save him.