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rabid1stOkay...last time out, I mentioned those pesky plot holes. But I was over on Lisa's journal talking about how drama isn't another word for tragedy and how tragic isn't another word for "realistic" when I stumbled over what I really want to say about the Whoverse at this time...so...under the cut we go for some possible CoE spoilers...but this is mostly about the pony.
What RTD does with CoE is tragic. It's not realistic. In fact, as I pointed out...in my last post...it was magical thinking in the end that saved the day. It was divorced from reality. In reality, Torchwood and other groups would have been working to stop the 456...as well as trying to contain the problem of intellegence leaks...and then we would have had a tighter drama with less running about and more of a logical line to our final solution.
But leaving all that aside...what worries me at this point...is the relentless character assassination going on in RTD's work. I've focused a lot of my attention on Ten's behavior on the beach in past posts. But it seems to me, now, in light of CoE...that RTD ends by taking away the very thing that defines a character.
The Ianto/Jack romance devolves as we learn that Ianto even questions his attraction. Ianto's not really gay and like his sister says, we didn't really even know him. Meanwhile, Jack was defined by his rebel streak, that cockiness that he always used. And by becoming a good guy despite the odds against him. Up until the final moments of CoE I'm sure every Jack fan would have assumed he would fight to the end for his family and friends. That Jack is dead, now. People might still try to justify what Jack did...but the fact is...he's not the Jack we had before he killed Stephen.
Rose was definied by her complete commitment and steadfast loyalty to HER Doctor. She defeated impossible odds to get back to him time and again. She defied him and the beast and the Isolus and her mother and the Daleks and the boundaries of a universe. Yet, we are asked to believe that her defining devotion can be transfered to another with a few whispered words. That would mean Rose isn't the same character we knew before in the show.
Donna was defined by her growth, by changing for the better. She went from being a nothing much temp with zero self esteem, wanting only to manipulate someone into marrying her, to a woman who learned to stand up for herself. She became the most important person in the universe, but beyond that, she became important to herself. Now, all of that hard work is just gone. Talk about character assassination. There it is. Donna is definitely no longer the character we came to love.
And then...finally...there is the Doctor. Once upon a time, he showed up and carried people away on grand adventures. They became BETTER people because they knew him...and he always saved the day...even against impossible odds. The audience felt like being with him was a treat. Now, he's a bitter, lonely creature who makes everyone he meets miserable. He acts selfishly, lies and betrays the very people who put their faith in him, who sacrifice for him. He's a shallow user who wanders the stars looking for a way to take his mind off everything he can't deal with in person. He's given up...which is something the Doctor would never do.
Rae
thinking...we should at least restore some character to the Doctor...and so...still thinking we might get a pony.
What RTD does with CoE is tragic. It's not realistic. In fact, as I pointed out...in my last post...it was magical thinking in the end that saved the day. It was divorced from reality. In reality, Torchwood and other groups would have been working to stop the 456...as well as trying to contain the problem of intellegence leaks...and then we would have had a tighter drama with less running about and more of a logical line to our final solution.
But leaving all that aside...what worries me at this point...is the relentless character assassination going on in RTD's work. I've focused a lot of my attention on Ten's behavior on the beach in past posts. But it seems to me, now, in light of CoE...that RTD ends by taking away the very thing that defines a character.
The Ianto/Jack romance devolves as we learn that Ianto even questions his attraction. Ianto's not really gay and like his sister says, we didn't really even know him. Meanwhile, Jack was defined by his rebel streak, that cockiness that he always used. And by becoming a good guy despite the odds against him. Up until the final moments of CoE I'm sure every Jack fan would have assumed he would fight to the end for his family and friends. That Jack is dead, now. People might still try to justify what Jack did...but the fact is...he's not the Jack we had before he killed Stephen.
Rose was definied by her complete commitment and steadfast loyalty to HER Doctor. She defeated impossible odds to get back to him time and again. She defied him and the beast and the Isolus and her mother and the Daleks and the boundaries of a universe. Yet, we are asked to believe that her defining devotion can be transfered to another with a few whispered words. That would mean Rose isn't the same character we knew before in the show.
Donna was defined by her growth, by changing for the better. She went from being a nothing much temp with zero self esteem, wanting only to manipulate someone into marrying her, to a woman who learned to stand up for herself. She became the most important person in the universe, but beyond that, she became important to herself. Now, all of that hard work is just gone. Talk about character assassination. There it is. Donna is definitely no longer the character we came to love.
And then...finally...there is the Doctor. Once upon a time, he showed up and carried people away on grand adventures. They became BETTER people because they knew him...and he always saved the day...even against impossible odds. The audience felt like being with him was a treat. Now, he's a bitter, lonely creature who makes everyone he meets miserable. He acts selfishly, lies and betrays the very people who put their faith in him, who sacrifice for him. He's a shallow user who wanders the stars looking for a way to take his mind off everything he can't deal with in person. He's given up...which is something the Doctor would never do.
Rae
thinking...we should at least restore some character to the Doctor...and so...still thinking we might get a pony.
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(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-17 12:53 am (UTC)(wonders...any possibility of Wild Geese any time in the future???)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-17 01:26 am (UTC)Want. Pony. Now.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-18 05:15 am (UTC)CAN'T! HOLD! ON! MUCH! LONGER!
:snicker:
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-17 04:49 am (UTC)I hope we get a pony...
Date: 2009-07-17 06:03 am (UTC)Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-17 06:51 am (UTC)Well, not really. If you don't accept Ten 2 AS the Doctor, of course, it is a betrayal to Rose's character.
But then, remember that Ten I said his duplicate was the Doctor & so did Ten 2 before killing the Daleks; "I AM the Doctor".
You see, that's why I'd like to see/read more about Ten 2. So, everyone could see he is really the Doctor or that at least he BECAME the DOctor for Pete's world.
I do not doubt that he is THE Doctor
Date: 2009-07-17 07:16 am (UTC)But obviously, some people are happy enough with her switch of loyalties. In order for the ending to work, we have to believe that Rose gave up on Ten...simply because she got someone who looked and acted like him to grow old with...and that's not like Rose.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-17 11:17 am (UTC)I love your unwavering belief that we will get that blasted pony - it gives me faith where there really shouldn't be any. And I'm still hoping for a whole herd of ponies on That Other Bloody Show.
And after reading the other comments, my major pony is the belief that we're going to see Rose and Ten2 in one of these specials. I know I'm going to be disappointed but I can't help thinking that Ten2 is special in some way. And I've not found any fanfic to help me with it either!
See? There is another thing...
Date: 2009-07-17 12:45 pm (UTC)In the case of #1...I can now clearly see that RTD might not have been able to think of the perfectly canon possibility that Donna could fly the TARDIS herself and save eveyrone...since she had been taking TARDIS flying lessons...and all we really needed was a well timed distraction to get everyone out of there.
In the case of #2...I can also readily believe that RTD thought this was a magical solution that many of the fans would simply believe because they were told to believe it. This is what I see in people...they simply don't need logic because they have been conditioned to accept out of character behavior in every show...so if they can cobble together some fanfic to make it work for them...they are happy.
Like you do above...you just say...well...since I can't have a really satisfying ending...let me see that Ten 2 and Rose are happy and I'll take that and make up something to explain it all.
It bothers me that people not only settle for such substandard writing, but that the writers who deliver it are lauded as geniuses. Now, maybe my ideals are unrealistic...but I think that there are lots of ways to fix this mess...and NOT fixing it...slapping a bandaid of making it...which is what making it all work out in the finale for the best would be...is a way of saying what others have said...that the writer is irrelevent to the success of the work.
Rae
who has more pride than to say I am irrelevent to my work...and wishes mostly that RTD doesn't turn out to be irrelevent to his.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-17 09:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-17 11:32 pm (UTC)I do agree that making the Doctor a hopeless commit-o-phobe was one of the worst mistakes ever. And what really grates my biscuit into crumbs is that I never expected the romance angle to ruin the show in the WAY it ruined it. It is one thing to say that the Doctor is too alien to love a human...which is what Old School would have led us to believe..."He's just too high minded." Or...even to allow that he might entertain the notion of loving Rose and yet not be able to do anything about it...given their differences...and so he moves on with his life.
But what we have is a Doctor who quite obviously is in love with Rose and wants her and needs her and flat out says so. Since 10.5 never gets to express any thoughts of his own...we are left to assume one of two things...either he loves her because the Doctor loves her...or...he doesn't love her. And we know that he feels differently about 3 things...1) the death of the Daleks 2) Donna's feelings of insecurity which he can see clearly now and 3) that he deserves to be left on that beach. Yet, we are supposed to feel that he loves Rose...and so...we must feel that the Doctor loves Rose, so intently that it cannot be questioned even in a doppleganger.
And we are back to the idea of the Doctor then being too much of a coward to deal with his feelings.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-18 07:11 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-17 11:34 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-18 04:01 am (UTC)*sigh* I'm just ranting now. Sorry. Can I just say I really love everything you said about the character assassination spree RTD has been taking DW on as of late? Nine was flawed, angry and harsh but at least he was honest about it. Right now Ten is twisting everything he does into being about sacrificing for everyone else when really all he's doing is sacrificing everyone else.
Exactly...and, at this point, I just don't know...
Date: 2009-07-18 04:54 am (UTC)You make an excellent point and it's one I didn't really address...which is...what exactly was Jack's big ass original plan? To march in there...declare that he has arrived...and the aliens would give up and go? Seems a little weak to me...so no big surprise that it fails, I'm thinking. Then, yes...we waste a lot of narrative time feeling sorry for ourselves. Which the Doctor is also doing...and in both cases...it seems to me that any 10 year old boy would go, "God, what a cry baby. It was all his fault things went wrong."
Anyway...I am glad that I have been able to articulate your frustrations. They are my frustrations, too. And I don't know that I have any hope of RTD suddenly pulling all his strings together. He has had an effective ending to his seasons twice...S1 and S2 of DW...and he's had 5 very lame endings...T1, T2, T3, DW3 and DW4. As I see it, the odds are not in our favor.
Rae
Re: Exactly...and, at this point, I just don't know...
Date: 2009-07-18 06:23 am (UTC)It just shows how not tragic the ending of CoE really was. Jack is a horrible bastard is not really a tragic statement, merely a sad reflection on the failure of RTD to keep true to his characters and not manipulate situations for knee-jerk reactions of pain from the audience.
At this point Gwen, Martha, Donna and Rose really are too good for the Doctor AND Jack to be spending time with. Screw the pony, I'll take groveling.
I do agree that it was very out of character
Date: 2009-07-18 06:48 am (UTC)The Doctor gives up as the trail goes cold...he just stands there...but then he finds his life again and calls out to Rose as he searches the Subwave Facebook. He responds to her saying, "Find me." I don't know that they intended that cut to be so seamless...but it is...the subwave isn't working and then...Rose says, "Find me" and the Doctor does a little festive leap. Then, after he's confronted Davros...we see him on a devastated street...he knows that the Daleks are taking all the people
And yet...when Rose appears...he runs to her like a man in love. And as he is dying...she is all...don't leave me...you can't leave me. And, he just...doesn't regenerate. Are you still you? She asks...clearly having the choice RIGHT THEN...to have a Doctor who looks just like HER Doctor and who she KNOWS will be "the same man"...but she is rejecting that. She wants HER Doctor...Ten. Then, when he tells her, "Still me!" they embrace and for the first time in two years...you finally see Ten happy again.
And you realize, too, what a genuine smile looks like from him. All of the others, were tinged with his pain...but there...in Rose's arms...he's fully content. He hears that she was building a dimension cannon...which he told her NOT to even try because it would shatter both universes. Anyone else tells him something like that and he would be all on-coming storm of frowny face. But Rose...she gets that sexy little biting smile of desire. Because, yeah, "Shut up!" That whole exchange says these two people KNOW that they always are there for one another.
Captured by the Daleks...she takes his hand as the TARDIS and Donna are threatened. She is close to him, her shoulder behind his, giving him her strength. As Jack is shot down, the Doctor is in front of Rose, protecting her from the coming shot with his own body...then as she rushes to Jack, the Doctor again, wraps his body around hers, not just taking her arm or her hand, but literally giving her his strength. And in the pit with Davros...Rose and the Doctor most both be contained...and Davros...he's intent on exposing the Doctor as this evil person, in front of Rose. Davros wants Rose to see that the Doctor is not a good person. Also, Davros is aware that he can manipulate the Doctor through Rose.
Finally...on the beach...he doesn't deny he needs Rose. Nor does he deny he loves her. He asks if he needs to tell her that he loves her. And I would imagine that NO...he doesn't need to tell her that. But RTD manages to cast doubt on that issue...by having Rose kiss Blue!Ten after the words are spoken.
I can just about believe that Rose kissed Blue!Ten because Brown!Ten was acting so out of character and Blue did know the right words to say. And so she figured...she'd kiss him and see if he was Doctor enough for her. Meanwhile, Ten figures he's lost her because he can't give her a normal life and he's "The Destroyer of Worlds..now and forever." She has seen the "true" him and she would be better off far away. I believe we can also assume that Brown!Ten is aware of what is happening to Donna and he knows that Rose will not be happy about what he's going to do next.
So...both our heroes...act out of character due to extraordinary circumstance...I could buy that if we get it all laid out properly at Christmas. It is really not that complicated to fix. All we need to see is that Blue!Ten really isn't what Rose wants...easily solved if they just tell us that. And then we need to deal with what the Doctor wants...which has been continually addressed in canon...and only finally...yes, it does...it needs saying!
It is as simple as that. He just needs to say, I want to be with Rose, the woman I love. And he can go and come back later, because the rest is just scifi reasoning on the mechanics of switching the Doctors.
Rae
Re: I do agree that it was very out of character
Date: 2009-07-18 01:42 pm (UTC)And there you do have...
Date: 2009-07-18 02:05 pm (UTC)And I would like to hear him say that to his own people, please. If he thinks humans are so great, let him put his money where his mouth is. And maybe stick around Earth long enough to help.
It is possible they might reconnect the alternative universe in a plausible way...so the Rose's Ianto arrives in our universe...and the zepplins and flooding go away...and Pete and Jackie and Tony arrive and Handy is reabsorbed...and they say...you are now forgiven. And the Doctor realizes that they have been playing god with him...and changes his own attitude about all the little people in his story so far.
If we ended Christmas with the reveal of "it was all a dream...or prison sentence...or object lesson" because he tried to blow up his home world. Then, we could use the New Years episode to put all of the ducks in a row. Have our Ten give his melodramatic speech about how valuable all of these people are and how much they mean to him. Have our Ten/Rose wedding...and set the universe right...and give the Doctor some time off to rest and recover. And all we need to do is reset from RTDs mess.
Does RTD have the balls (magical 8-balls, I'm thinking) to go with "it was all a bad dream?"
Rae
Re: And there you do have...
Date: 2009-07-18 08:09 pm (UTC)I actually wanted it in the past...
Date: 2009-07-18 09:03 pm (UTC)There are many positive aspects to the Doctor being the one in the wrong universe...and it is actually something that could be revealed in plausible fashion...if it turns out that something is amiss in our universe that shouldn't be amiss. Also, in some ways...it would take the sting out of a Rose/Ten happy ending for the Old School faithful...because they could say that he would never have been attracted to Rose outside of prison and he's only going to her at the end because he knows this is a fantasy he can live and then leave behind...like a dream.
And...like you...I'd be happy enough to just take that...take his rejection of his people for a time...so that he can be with Rose...knowing that he will be returning from her to face...his future.
One thing I really like about this scenario...is that it explains Matt looking so young...and the supposed reset of the TARDIS interior...both things could be a reaction to starting over under Time Lord rule again.
Rae
also, honestly, afraid to hope and have her Christmas ruined.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-18 05:13 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-18 08:01 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-18 09:05 pm (UTC)Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-18 09:30 pm (UTC)