Torchwood: CoE one more time

[rabid1st]

Under the cut we go to avoid the spoilers for those who have not seen it.

So, I watched CoE again from the beginning and I have not changed my opinion about the tone being masterful. The person I watched it with called it laughably melodramatic at times, but conceded that it pushed the right buttons to get you involved. And there are all those beautiful character touches, Ianto lying about his father...and Rhys needing to eat...and Lois being terrified to play the traitor. Ten quid a kid! And, of course, the beauty of Frobisher's final solution.

But, sadly, I haven't changed my mind about the Hail Mary plotting, either. As my buddy Kes said, you can see the rivets in this thing, and nobody bothered to smooth them over. So I can't really rave about the writing with the same level of enthusiasm that others are using.

There is no sign in any scene that anything about frequency will be harmful to the 456. They are named for a frequency...they broadcast on it. But I am named for a nasty disease, that doesn't mean you can make me go away with a series of painful injections.

Beyond that, there is no sign in five nights of viewing that the 456 can or should be harmed by sound. It comes completely out of left field...based...on them...uhm...using a frequency. And, I agree, with that weasel-guy that was arguing with Jack...surely someone tried feedback in 1965...some really literal-minded person, I'm thinking. The fact that a sound is used against CLEM (a human being that the 456 rejected) is no reason to assume that same sound can be turned back on the 456...even if some "hurtful" connection IS established. And Jack makes no effort at all to establish this supposed "hurt"...he guesses and acts.

Jack doesn't so much as examine Clem's body. There's no earlier chats with Clem or an autopsy or anything. Jack just thinks...let's pretend there is something about Clem that harms the 456...and then let's pretend that the same thing they used to killed Clem can ALSO harm them...someone give me a kid to put this fuzzy logic to the test.

Also, it makes no sense given Gwen's early wild assumption that there is something about puberty involved here. Puberty might have panned out...if anyone had looked into it...after all...they wanted KIDS for "the hit." I gritted my teeth when Gwen's guess turned out right, but, like Lisa, she's sort of psychic, so okay. Maybe there is some part of the 456 inside Clem that they are calling "the remnant" and it's not a hitchhiker, but it's also not Clem. So, even if Clem on the cusp of puberty is Hail Mary assumption 2 for this episode, it might have worked as a plot point to save the children if anyone had made the slightest effort to develop it.

When the 456 flail about...there is no high pitched noises...or any sound at all in a couple of places. Clem has a couple of serious twitches...but they aren't connected to sound either. Smell seems to be the BIG honking clue with him. And nobody bothers to examine him more closely...even after he dies. Also, if you are going to use magical thinking...which Gwen does when she supposes Clem was rejected because he was near puberty...then 1) have a child closer to puberty playing Clem in the flashback and 2) revisit that idea a few times...likr maybe with Frobisher's eldest daughter entering puberty...AND...most importantly...3) link that huge assumption to the reason your hero kills his own.

Coming up with ANOTHER stupid link (like the sound that killed Clem is "different")is...well...stupid.

I am very disturbed that Jack kills his grandson based on such absurd leaps in logic. Yes, he's so good there is no need to do any research on his random guesses. It was ridiculous. If you are going to have Jack make such a sacrifice, the reasoning behind it should be completely explained or, at least, half-way plausible. Here, it is like...Jack makes this huge guess and fries his grandson on the say so of...well...

What WAS he going by? Maybe it was the guy that wrote the episode, who I assume explained it to him while they were rehearsing...which means...WAIT A MINUTE...that KID is an ACTOR...and so he's probably not REALLY dead. Well, now I feel alot better about that scene.

Sorry...I'm being rather hard on old Russell here...I'm sure it wasn't easy to write 5 nights of gripping televsion. But honestly...would it have killed the Torchwood team to have, at least, LOOKED at Clem to see if their leaps in logic had any basis in reality? Couldn't the puberty thing have panned out? Then we could suck the future out of Steven and pipe it to everyone and voila...same ending.

Oh, no...let's just fry some kid's brain with a random noise...maybe that will work.

Comments

[jayaydee.livejournal.com]

As usual, perfectly put.

Oh, no...let's just fry some kid's brain with a random noise...maybe that will work.
I have been deliberating in my mind for days now, the outcome of CoE - and I am still not happy with it.
Bottom line, it felt like the writer was all "Well, they are all so shocked that I wiped out Ianto, no-one will notice this gaping lack of logic."

Being psychic is no excuse ;-)

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

In Last of the Time Lords, the ArchAngel network controlled the population by thought, and thinking the other way defeated the bad guy. In Journey's End, the 'backfiring' principle destroyed the Daleks - we saw the ray kill humans and it was then used to kill Daleks. This mechanism is a common one to RTD, so it's not surprising that it was used in CoE. We accept it more in Journey's End because we're told it destroys everything; the Daleks hide when the detonation countdown begins so it's not Dalek proof.

I only figured out sound would kill the 456 because it was the only sense we had of them. All those close ups of speakers and the sound dials. Sound also travels instantly, passing the message by knocking into neighbouring molecules (rather than getting a hormone from one place to another), and it's poor pacing that meant the solution had to work with 15 minutes to go.

Puberty might have panned out...

The puberty thing might have been bantered by Jack and Ianto in Day One, so it's not just Gwen. Again, it's a pacing issue that stops this being a plausible solution. Trying to give 10% of the population hormone therapy isn't feasible in 24 hours. Even if it was released into the atmosphere and everyone breathed it in, the effects take at least a month to develop. This would be a Scorched Earth scenario, because you'd never spin that as 'aliens crossed us.' If the 456 figured out what we were doing to the air, or when we gave them a pubescent, they could wipe us all out. Plus, these hormoned children will eventually have pre-pubescents of their own, and the 456 could come back and try taking those instead. Killing the 456 in a way we can replicate, rather than deterring them, is a more favourable solution.

let's pretend there is something about Clem that harms the 456

Did you get the impression Clem is attached to the 456? >>> Maybe there is some part of the 456 inside Clem <<< Ergo, if sound kills Clem and part of the 456 is inside him, the sound could have the same effect on the 456. This would explain why the children screaming the death frequency didn't kill themselves... if it's only lethal to 456 aspects and not human ones.

When the 456 flail about...there is no high pitched noises...or any sound at all in a couple of places.

That might be a reaction to drug addiction, that the source of discomfort is internal rather than external.

Jack makes this huge guess and fries his grandson on the say so of...well...

This may be the purpose of Ianto's death. It breaks Jack's rational thought process. ;-)


But, you are right. CoE is unsatisfying because the conclusion is childishly simple (no pun intended) with little build up and has no place in an adult drama. But this is Pony hope, because we've had many, many pointers throughout four seasons of Doctor Who.

Lisa

Of course, what I am saying is...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

,,,pointers don't add up to a pony if the fellow writing the story is all about magical thinking. And, indeed, there is a lot of magical thinking at the end of Journey's End. It is all magical thinking, actually, that Rose is going to be okay with 10.5 because they kissed...that Donna's family is never going to mention anything about the Doctor and so she is going to be fine, too...that somehow the idea that her brilliance will "seep through" is the truth...and mostly that if the Doctor just says something is so...then it happens.

I actually did not get the impression that Clem was part of the 456. I'm saying that's the only conclusion we can draw because that's what the narrative demands. But also...there is no evidence to support it. Clem is killed by a noise...and Jack then assumes that same noise will kill the 456...but as you note...the 456 pretty much use sound to communicate over a distance with us. WE on the other hand...have the weapon of their drug addiction.

AND...it is made apparent that a "virus" can be used in a controlled space...ala...Thames House and the death of Ianto...then has more meaning than...we think maybe now Jack can't think straight and that makes him able to save the day.

As for the forced aging of the children...I don't think that would be necessary...all they needed to do was age Stephen...which would have been very telling for Jack...who does not age, as we are told early on by his daughter. They could have used Jack's knowledge of controlled space/time to speed up Stephen's aging process and used the feedback formula they used to channel his accelerated aging to every child. It wouldn't push every child into old age...but it could push the one in the tank into old age...and kill the 456 with accelerated withdrawal.

Stephen then misses out on his whole life...but every other child is spared...and Alice gets the dubious joy of seeing what Jack lives through with his own children dying of old age right in front of him...while also...hating Jack for sacrificing the boy.

I do agree that there was no way to solve the thing with logic once we got to episode 5...unless we had the hitchhiker discovery I suggested...that would have linked back to episode 1...and all we would need to do is have an autopsy. Which I think we could have had in the time we sat watching Jack give up in jail. Then, it could turn out that aliens giving US a feel good sensation...were somehow connected to US giving the 456 a feel good sensation...and voila...logical ending.

Still..the pony is magical...and so is switching Doctors...so...there is definitely still hope. What bothers me is that, just like with Joss Whedon, people get used to praising Russell and they keep on praising him even when he lets his standards slip. And, also, there is a tendency to mistake heartwrenching or gutwrenching scenes for high art...like I said in the pony post...you get Geek Street Cred if the audience is upset at the end.

Rae
who gives Rae-Cred only if your story holds together at the end. ;->

I like your withdrawal theory

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

They could have used Jack's knowledge of controlled space/time to speed up Stephen's aging process

So we need the Master's laser screwdriver to age kids.

used the feedback formula they used to channel his accelerated aging to every child.

I have no idea if you can transmit ageing on a sonic frequency. Ageing doesn't appear to be a function of the sonic screwdriver.

Oh, oh. I've just remembered from Fragments, Tosh built a sonic weapon. So even in Torchwood, we've had evidence. It would simply be a matter of finding the lethal frequency for the 456.

but it could push the one in the tank into old age...and kill the 456 with accelerated withdrawal.

I wonder if the child attached to the 456 isn't in some protective stasis, because the clothes are looking good for 44 years old. The poison gas certainly cleans the windows of vomit in a matter of hours.

and all we would need to do is have an autopsy

It would have been nice to see Clem's stomach to see if he had any scars from 456 tubes, to establish how attached he was before they rejected him and how he was connected still.


This is sadly another example of RTD's writing. He wrote One, Four and Five. Apparently he handed over One after Two and Three had been written, so he left it to the last minute again.

We have hope that we know he didn't leave the Who finale writing until it was overdue. I have hope because I feel uncaring about the Torchwood ending and its future, but I am still very much interested in Who.

Lisa

You know what...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...yeah...that's the truth...I don't really care about Torchwood. They never engaged me in their stories and they can go and save the BBC some money.

I told Kes that she wouldn't be disappointed with the start of CoE. I said she wouldn't be disappointed until episode 4 when she realized there was no way to save the day in time for episode 5 and have it make any sort of sense. I also said that what would leave the worst taste in her mouth about it all would be the final 10 minutes.

And there we go.

So...at this point...all we have to hope for is that the Hail Mary save in Doctor Who in the last ten minutes...is that we switch Doctors. Then you and I and like-minded Rose/Ten fans...can finally be happy with a slapped together ending. :grin:

Rae
looking forward to the angst-loving crowd writing a few essays about how the happy-ending came out of left field. Is that so very wrong? :->

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

I have been very busy this week and haven't revisted CoE, but I have to admit, the solution, which I suspected was a possibility, doesn't hold up to closer scrutiny particularly when there were several other plot points that could have served the narrative more economically while still reaching the endgame of Jack having to sacrifice Stephen. And even in the midst of first viewing, I was less than happy with Clem's special abilities and why he was not chosen not being addressed. I would have liked for him to have been more than the Greek chorus feeding us insight into the main players. Had it been me writing it, I would have put all of Torchwood's research skills into discovering *why* the 456 didn't want Clem and then seeing if there was a way to "sour" the other children. If puberty was the issue, then why the smelling? Just a clever way to find out Gwen's pregnant and re-confirming that Ianto is gay? Shoddy writing, that. You don't wave a gun that big and not USE it, Uncle Rusty.

I still hold out Pony hopes because it's logical plotting. But I hope RTD isn't going the road of George Lucas and blowing sound logic, good plotting, and a satisfying story for all levels of viewers, for angst and SFX that lack emotional resonance because the journey from point a to point b makes no frakkin sense whatsoever.

(edited for misspelling and one wonky word choice)

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

Jack has live a life of hell and as a pastor once told me, when you're in hell, you become a part of it. Thats what happened to Jack and thats why he scooped the kid up and fried him. Is it RTD justifying as to why the Doctor can't have Rose? Perhaps. Look how close Jack allowed himself to get to people. He'd been married dozens of times and even had children.Perhaps Rusty is showing us what would happen to Rose. Then again, this could be shoddy writing. There really wasn't a good reason for the kid to die. Even the Doctor would've found a way. It could very well be that we shouldn't read into it, because its just Rusty half-hazardly wrapping up a story and giving us the finger because he wants to write other things.

Well...there's the thing...it's sort of like...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...the old saying: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. RTD has played his loyal fans as fools twice over now...with what he did to Rose and Donna and what he did here to Ianto and Jack. He HAD to know that he was breaking the hearts of his most loyal fans with these actions...but he seems to have gleefully embraced that prospect.

So...is it part of his philosopy to simply have a scorched earth policy on his shows when he is done with them? As you put it, giving us the finger because he wants to write other things. Or...does he truly believe that long lived people like Jack and the Doctor will not be able to care for "lesser" people like Stephen or Rose or Donna?

The British class society does allow for the acceptance of "lesser people" which American values reject even if we also live in a class society. So, perhaps, RTD is saying that people like the Doctor or Jack really can't relate to other people humanely. I think, however, that RTD wants us to feel sorry for Jack and the Doctor...to feel that they are the ones who are suffering after they do these terrible things. And some people buy into that...but to me...they are more like narcissists than heroes.

Rae

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Jack has always wanted to be like the Doctor and now, emotionally, that's happening. Be careful what you wish for. I was worried to notice in CoE that he seemed quite incapable of sustaining a romantic relationship. Oh, the sex is good, but he treated Ianto pretty badly. His announcement of having a daughter and grandson was so like the "I was a dad once" bomb in FH. In fact, I think one weakness of RTD's approach is he's retelling a story we've heard already. I also see absolutely no evidence that Jack has the slightest ability to relate to kids.

Again and again, DW, TW and RTD most of all have shown an incredibly cavalier attitude to plot so long as they get to where they want to be emotionally. That worked for the first two series of DW because it was still fresh to the viewer and the writing and acting were superb. But now it's far more formulaic and the holes are really showing.

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the 456 did with the kids. Stomach implants, or what?

And there is another good question...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the 456 did with the kids. Stomach implants, or what?

As I said, in one of these posts, answering the questions you raise in a story is one of the ways to have a tight plot. It's actually what we do as writers. And, all too often, I feel that RTD takes very little time on answering the questions he raises. He's making it up last minute...and as you say, the formula is showing wear and holes.

This leads me to really consider the idea of "Bad Wolf" which he says was written on the side of the TARDIS and he decided to incorporate it. And Torchwood which is simply an anagram that becomes meaningful and, frankly, if it hadn't impacted our core couple to such an extent...would have disappointed. Mr. Saxon, the S3 anagram, did disappoint. And, of course, the idea that Donna is coupled with the Doctor in some fashion and meaningful in her own right...proves highly slap dash in the end...as does the idea of Rose returning. Both of those events should have resonated...but they ended up as a way to "surprise" the audience and magic away the bad guys.

Rae