TORCHWOOD: CoE...Episode 5...Spoilers!

[rabid1st]

Well, then...there we have it. And under the cut we go for reactions.

I readily bow down to those of you who said it would be an angstfest with Jack losing everything. And, also, those of you who went for signal feedback as a form of weapon. Kudos if you also had using the kids for transmission. I have to say, I'm still not a fan of that idea. It just seemed completely illogical. People said the 456 showed reactions to sound...but I never saw that. I thought for one brief moment when Jack asked about Clem and what made him special...we would have a more interesting ending...but...alas...there is a Pony, but it seems to be a one-trick wonder.

I honestly doubt Jack will have much to say to the Doctor later...other than..."We should keep running, you and I." Maybe Jack really is River Song.

I am disappointed in RTD. But let me talk, first, about what I liked about this miniseries. Not much in retrospect, but the tone was consistent. I think it held together and never backed down off of its very grim message. It was frightening and heartwrenching. I cared about the people, even the bad guys. Lois is a non-starter in the end, stuck in her cell listening to someone's confession. I suppose providing the lenses was a strike for the good guys. Also, go Andy for joining the fray after all of his protesting. I believe RTD set out to tear Torchwood down and he succeeds in doing just that. Never mind that the rift is now no longer monitored. If I was writing this, that would be significant...but I'm not writing...so never mind.

For me, the most effective moment in the entire production was when Frobisher went upstairs with the gun while his secretary provided the voice-over. Everything about that scene was horrific. From his calm demeanor to the trusting love of his family to the devotion of his secretary (and we don't know if her love was ever reciprocated, sadly) to the pacing of those final gunshots. I was completely undone by that scene. And I will remember he was a good man...even if he did very bad things. Wish I could say I will remember that about Jack.

But, at least, I have my answer about Christmas. I know I hold up the beacon of hope for those of you still reading me. But there are limits to my optimism. And we have hit those limits. Probably there is no pony...just crap. There is apparently a philosophical difference between RTD and I. Like Joss Whedon, he simply believes that angst is ALWAYS the answer. Hence, while we still have the possibility of a better ending for the Doctor and Rose, I doubt we will get one. There is no narrative reason NOT to give us a happy ending. In fact, there is every reason to give us one...we desperately need one to be able to go on...but it goes against the underlying idea of eternal suffering we now have at the core of Doctor Who.

Beyond that, according to Russell, running away is what heroes do! He's said it too many times now for me to hope for a reversal of message. Russell glorifies the simple people but he doesn't really respect them. He seems to be telling us that simple people are stronger because simple people have small, easy lives, and then they can rest. Heroes have to keep going...apparently that also means they have to sacrifice the people they care about...which means their lives are fill of pain. But that's okay because they can always make a new life somewhere and never look back. I am afraid I'm not one to run, myself, so this philosophy doesn't sit well with me.

I was happy to get lip-service on my philosophy from Gwen. But unfortunately she reminded me of tearful Rose on the beach...and Jack gets the last word. Watch me, run! Just like River Song, yeah! Sad that!

And, yes, of course, I am aware of the beautiful tragedy of it all...summed up ironically in the phrase, "A man who can't die has nothing to lose." While in practice we see him losing everything that can possibly matter to a man, over and over again. But...sadly...going to the same well so many times, muddies the water on that message. Instead of feeling sorry for Jack, I end up feeling pummeled and depressed by him. I see no point in hoping he will learn anything from his many life times other than to give up sooner. Which is what the Doctor does on that beach with Rose.

You've got to figure RTD really believes that it isn't a good thing to know the Doctor or Jack...or to have a smidgeon of hope. And also I feel that he was intending to wrap up Torchwood as a show with this miniseries.

Everybody dies, it's like Joss Whedon claiming to be Shakespearean. Not EVERY play is a tragedy, Joss, as I used to say.

Of course, Jack was bound to head off to the stars one day. I've always made that point about Rose...and the Doctor in a parallel universe...since we've seen aliens visit Earth many times...probably you could hitch a ride off-world if you know how to signal someone. Glad to see I'm right about the little details. Sorry, to say, I wish I'd been right about a surprise or two.

Russell is beginning to bore me. Not that this one completely fell apart at the end, the tone was even throughout. We got where Russell was intending to go. If the soundwave solution was a bit too convenient, still some people saw it coming and, one assumes, were satisfied with it. To sum up, I am unhappy because this story just didn't go anywhere I cared to follow.



Rae

Comments

[fidesangelus.livejournal.com]

My reaction is very similar to your's but less articulate and more full of annoyed rage. I had to force myself to really watch the last fifteen minutes because I was so disgusted with RTD's choice of ending for this series. On the bright side he made me dislike Jack completely and not care if I ever saw Torchwood again so I could try and be positive and thank him. *sigh* I'm not sure I have the confidence in him I used to after this.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...he is looking at a set of absolutely grim episodes now. Because if you think on it...we have...Tosh and Owen dying...at the end of Torchwood S2...then we have Rose abandoned and Donna turned into a...middle-aged slacker, again...in that trainwreck of JE. Now we have this incredibly grim ripping apart of Torchwood...with absolutely no possiblity of redemption for Jack. I just can't see him coming back from slaughtering his own grandchild.

And next up...we are going to gut and regenerate the Doctor...

...fun for the whole family, yes?

I think not. I think, if we don't get the pony...and we probably won't...then Doctor Who is over. Too bad for Matt and Moffat.

Rae

[karie22.livejournal.com]

I just posted much the same on my own LJ. Captain Jack Harkness was one of my most favorite TV characters of all time, and by the end of this episode, he was dead to me. So I guess I should be grateful that RTD left me hating him so much, so that I won't grieve the loss of the series as much as I would have if I still loved and missed Jack after it was over.

I was hoping I would get on tonight and find out that RTD had nothing to do with this miniseries (I was behind on my news and didn't even find out until today that it had been airing), but that hope went unfulfilled. I'm terrified to watch the remainder of Tennent's DW now, if this is what I can expect from Russel. Maybe David might a good choice in cutting his ties and choosing to leave the show.

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

See, now maybe I'm overly optomistic, but I think this is precisely how and why we're going to get our pony. Jack is now as broken as Nine was after the Time War, and unlike Nine, it's pretty damned obvious that a deathwish will do him no bloody good whatsoever. If there's one person in time and space that can relate to and absolve Jack, it's the Doctor. And Jack, in turn, kicks Ten's arse for what he did to Donna, Rose, and 10.5. Jack promised to never forget Ianto. Jack will also always regret not getting that final shag thanks to Rhys and the bloody beans being done. He'll pass on Ianto's message of living life to its fullest now because the world is ALWAYS ending.

Ergo: Pony.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...see? That could happen. I just feel too battered to care. I really am losing interest in it. If Jack and the Doctor can give up than I guess I can give up on them. :grin:

One point...I don't see Jack having a deathwish. I see him as simply going off to find something fulfilling. Which is what the Doctor has been doing for years, according to RTD. The Doctor keeps going because he wants to be surprised by something. But then...when there is a chance to do something different...something he's never done before...love Rose completely...he keeps on running.

But...yes...there is that part of Jack that might feel very angry at the Doctor for abandoning Rose...for throwing away what HE...JACK wants so badly...just a little more time with his beloved. Also, we can't overlook that Jack is the way he is...because Rose wanted to get back to the Doctor so badly. And he was there for the moments when she begged the Doctor not to change and he didn't change. Jack knows how much Rose loves the Doctor...and how much the Doctor loves Rose.

I can easily see Jack getting all teary eyed and saying, "You think other people don't suffer losses? You're world's gone? Well, too bad. I've lost my world a thousand times over. I've lost so many people...my grandson...my wives...Ianto! But you, you just throw it all away...for WHAT? For nothing. I would give anything...I would suffer all of the pain ten times over, if I could have just one more day with the people I love. Just one more day."

Rae

[maniacalshen.livejournal.com]

Thank you for that bit of optimism; I needed it. XD I just finished the episode like five minutes ago and am still kind of... hollowed out.

[darklady7.livejournal.com]

Well, at risk to being unpopular, RTD impressed me with the storyline. I am entitled to have opinion. I respect your opinions and perspectives. But I watch Torchwood with my impassion but I felt for Ianto's death (I was shunned). I am still fan of Captain Jack Harkness, regardless of what he has done. The entire series is superb. So series 4 will come back. Something tells me that will happen.

Of course, you are entitled to an opinion

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And I think we are all happy for you if you enjoyed the show. I am especially happy that you are still a fan of Jack Harkness. I am, also, still a fan of his...I felt for him as he lost everything. I am just not sure he comes back from this for the audience as a whole. There are lines that it is dangerous to cross and one of those is to be a child killer. All those little kids and their parents watching this...I'm not sure what they will think.

But, I believe the ratings for this were very good so there is certainly a chance that you will have a S4...with Jack.

[astitchintime-9.livejournal.com]

...I am disappointed in RTD. But at least I have my answer about Christmas. It is apparently a philosophical difference that he and I have. Hence, while we still have the possibility of a better ending for the Doctor and Rose, I doubt we will get one. ... Sorry, to say, Russell is beginning to bore me. ...It just didn't go anywhere I cared to follow...


What you've written saddens me deeply. And annoys me a bit, too: that I wasted time and enthusiasm on a story that won't/isn't/didn't end/ending/end well.


I've only just today started watching TW s3 online [I prefer to be spoiled about character deaths and major disappointments, so I've been reading your reviews ...with nothing much to add, being so far behind.] and I'm now braced for more disappointment in the Whoniverse.


I wonder if you had considered that the "philosophical difference" between you & RTD that's at the core of your discontent with his tale is actually an inherent cultural difference? My understanding is that Americans must have their HEA ending, while Brits ...well, they just won't. (Blakes 7 springs to mind as just one example of the British mindset.). Do you suppose that's what is at work here?

I freely admit that I prefer the HEA : RL is hard enough and I don't need another hard-knock "learning experience" in my escapist entertainment (Thank you very much anyway, RTD!).

Bottom line: The most disturbing aspect of all of this will be the loss of optimism from the DW community! That's all that has kept me interested since we lost Nine. If the arc turns out to be so frustrating that even you give up hope, Rae, then what pleasure will be left for us to anticipate in any future DW projects?

No, I am no more a Happy Ever After fan

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...than the next person. And we don't get happy in the U.S. of A. not that I've noticed anyway. We sort of get slapped together crap after too many years of pointless UST.

I am trying to remember what I saw recently that had a downer ending that suited it...there was something...I should look back.

But take, for example, Gone With The Wind...perfect ending...it would be completely ridiculous to have Scarlett and Rhett work out after all that. And the most recent Batman...had a fine ending, too. Gothem gets the hero it deserves.

As I said...I'm not saying this ending wasn't the right ending for Torchwood. I'm saying that it isn't a very hopeful ending for we Pony lovers...because RTD is continuing to support his philosophy of cutting and running as the only way to deal with pain. That's not quite the same as unhappy endings. That's a philosophy about commitment to something.

And Rose and the Doctor...they would have worked...from a commitment standpoint. RTD even knows that...he said it...nothing would make Rose leave the TARDIS...and the Doctor wouldn't leave her. But the leap to that scenario being a dead-end...is a philosophy...that simply doesn't work for me...but may work just fine for other people. I mean...to me...life is about experience...joy...and what you can achieve. To say that Jack and the Doctor are doomed to pointlessly churn through space and time...ruining people's lives...and being unhappy about it...goes being not being escapist entertainment, in my opinion.

On the other hand...as I've said...if we are to keep you optimistic ( LOL )...then Christmas is the time for happy presents...and this could well be a set up for things. Like...the rift being unstable could allow Rose to return...or...Jack could be freed from the Bad Wolf energy by some Christmas miracle that saves the day.

I'm just saying...RTD seems to be set against saving the day...which means he can't surprise me. I mean...if I know how the story ends...why bother watching it?

Rae

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

I mostly agree with you. The tone of the whole series was consistent and the ending fits with the message RTD seems to want us to take away from Who as well. I think the only reason I'm not more pissed about this is that I'm just barely recovering from having RDM school me in the ways that self-obsessed, arrogant, know-it alls can frak up their shows. At least Russell is consistent, not making up any old thing at the end to suit his most recent dream.

I want to hate Jack but I find I can't anymore than I could hate 9 or 10; though I am tired of the fact that they're both (all?) given free passes to run from it.

I'm going to watch through Christmas because I want to see how it ends. I think whatever happens then will have a strong impact on the future of TW as a series, which I don't really see it having right now. Honestly I thought RTD was leaving Who to focus on Torchwood - wasn't that the original story?

I'm tempted to say I won't continue watching after the upcoming regeneration, but I'm not sure that'll be true. After all it's a new doctor and Moffat. And while neither of them are strong draws on their own they are different from the status quo.

Why does everyone believe that they can't end their series by giving the viewers a damn pony? Is it really that hard?

Because, sadly, they aren't creative enough...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...they buy into the belief that there is always a happy ending and they think that by giving us heartwrenching endings they are being "artistic." But it is all a load of bollocks...because art surprises...and nobody was surprised by this except ME. I was surprised only because I expected better from Russell.

He's so talented. He's actually more talented than Joss Whedon or Ron Moore...or Stephen Moffat...but it seems like nobody from his generation can buy, beg or borrow a clue about the state of the world around them and the relative merits of their storytelling.

EVERYONE...literally EVERYONE in RTD's generation seems to think that their angst filled endings are original and groundbreaking and that the audience can't wait to be left in tears again. But they always...END with the tragedy...so they don't suffer the consequences of lost ratings points. Joss Whedon is suffering them, though. And he's still clueless about why. Sad.

I know there will be people who enjoyed this. Who still love Jack and think that this was beautifully tragic. I think those people might be far younger than me and so they haven't seen this same scenario olay out about 100 times. Even Farscape...which came closest to a perfect ending...had to kill off a main character for the pathos. I would like to see a quality show...with angst and power and tragedy...and an uplifting twist at the end...

Maybe I'll have to write one! It looks like the only way I will ever get satisfaction. Then, of course, my fans can write about how I've disappointed THEM!

It will serve me right, yeah?

Rae
who...come on...definitely made you all suffer with Disheveled.

[larielromeniel.livejournal.com]

No, I am unhappy because this story just didn't go anywhere I cared to follow.

I think you nailed it right there, Rae. I've never liked Jack being broken but always was able to hold out hope. Now, though? It's all gone and that kills me.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

One of the wonders of RTD's writing is that he really can make you care about people who are doing horrible things. I did feel for Jack even as he does the unthinkable there. He manages to get away from this with a little of my respect...something the Doctor failed to do in JE. I just can't get behind any of this as...worthwhile. It seems rather pointless...like a scorched earth policy.

Rae

[gwendolynflight.livejournal.com]

I was so hoping you were right, though, in some of your earlier musings. Meh. I get tired of Russell's crap, too. And I'm getting seriously worried about the Christmas special! Why can't something be happy? It's sad enough the Doctor's regenerating, shouldn't there be something happy somewhere to counteract the angst? Like you want a little sweetness with hot flavors ... Um ... ::sigh::

Well...conversely...there is the school of thought...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...that this INCREASES our chances of a happy ending for the Doctor and Rose. Nobody can say, at this point, that Russell just has to have a happy ending. So, he's in the clear to give us one and still seem "cutting edge." But I am at the point where I'm not sure he sees the possiblities in front of him.

I was sure he wouldn't go scorched earth simply because we have had an almost unrelenting downer on these shows for the last year or more. Torchwood killed Tosh and Ianto...Doctor Who killed Donna's personality and Rose's hope...and made the Doctor over into a sulking, self-defeating ass. Now we've lost Ianto and Jack is a child killer. And we are staring down the barrell of a regeneration...loss of the most beloved Doctor ever.

It's hard to see the light dawning again for this universe. But it would certainly dazzle the audience if it dawned at Christmas. And, as I've said all along, Christmas is the time for happy endings.

Rae

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Power corrupts, doesn't it? And RTD is an egotist with a lot of power. He can make actors break down and cry in a read-through (He told us about that at the Cheltenham Lit Fest last year). He can hold Twitter and the popular press in the palm of his hand. Maybe that's your answer - he just couldn't resist the power.

I won't give up hope entirely until we've seen whether there's a reboot, an Alt Universe or something of that sort. But it's 95% over for me.

Clearly RTD needs to go dark, dark, dark. DW needs to regain its joy and is better off without him, I think. Moff wouldn't have been my favourite choice but he is better at keeping things light.

What struck me was how many parallels there were between the final scene and the Doomsday beach one. Count them. The hero is isolated, and runs away. The human character (who kind of loves him) has a home, family and ordinary life to return to, though it's questionable whether she'll ever be able to appreciate it after what she's been through. She begs him to stay but in the end he leaves. It's isolated, it's miles from any human contact, and there's been a time lag since the events leading up to it. Most of all, it feels the same. And that, I'll confess, is deeply depressing.

Too many old tricks are being recycled. It's time for everyone to move on. I think Tennnant saw that quite a while ago.

But it's the Frobisher scene I can't get out of my mind. Restraint is often the more powerful way. And I can't deny that, shorn of its DW baggage and history, the whole thing made a brilliant political thriller, one of the best TV dramas I've seen in years, and if Capaldi doesn't get a BAFTA for this there's no justice.

Cat (with a defiantly hopeful icon) signing out...my battery needs charging.

We are seeing the same thing, Cat

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Moff wouldn't have been my favourite choice but he is better at keeping things light.

LMAO! You know you are in trouble when Moffat is your beacon of light!

What struck me was how many parallels there were between the final scene and the Doomsday beach one. Count them. The hero is isolated, and runs away. The human character (who kind of loves him) has a home, family and ordinary life to return to, though it's questionable whether she'll ever be able to appreciate it after what she's been through. She begs him to stay but in the end he leaves. It's isolated, it's miles from any human contact, and there's been a time lag since the events leading up to it. Most of all, it feels the same. And that, I'll confess, is deeply depressing.

This is the same parallel I see. This is why I'm depressed about the ening. Most of the comments above think that I'm upset because the ending was unhappy. That's really not it. I'm upset because the ending was unhappy and largely alienated the hero for no good reason...well...other than RTD playing god, as you note. And if, he'd been playing god in an original fashion...I might have appreciated it a bit more.

I complete agree that as a political thriller this works. It also works as way to burn a show to the ground. It might even work as a fitting end to Torchwood and their cocky, sort of smarmy attitude about aliens. And, absolutely, on the BAFTA. As I was watching this last episode unfold I thought...well...this will definitely win the BAFTA. The writing was very good. But the bag of tricks is not that deep.

I am disappointed in RTD because of what I can now only call his philosophy...because he's gone there three times over...and in many other subtler places he's also made that same statement. Look at Elton Pope's voiceover. Look at River Song. Look at Sarah Jane. Pretty much RTD is saying that if you love someone...you don't burden them with your baggage. And he firmly believes that nothing is...well...worthy of forever.

Here, he clearly acknowledges the hope of forever...with Ianto...but he also once again clearly rejects that concept. It's ground I've seen four times over if we count Owen and Tosh.

Could he still surprise us with the happy now that he's set us up for the sad. Well, I will put my faith in Lisa, who is a pretty good psychic...but I don't know if I can put my faith in creativity winning out at this point. Nor, can I invest in the hope that RTD understands where a story should go...though, I will admit, Torchwood had a grim air to it from the beginning...while Doctor Who really does not. The Doctor should save the day. Of course, I think we can no longer be sure RTD knows that.

Rae

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

With these accurate predictions, I think I should put the lottery on.

And if I'm that good at seeing how things end, then my thoughts about a Pony still have hope. Torchwood went where RTD wanted it to go, and we know where he wants the Ten/Rose storyline to go. Predictable... the most consistent arc throughout Doctor Who... and is something worth following. (Though emotional investment is entirely at your own risk.)

"A man who can't die has nothing to lose."

The quote is, "A man that can't die has nothing to fear." He has everything to lose, as ably demonstrated by the angst. Angst likely heightened by Davros' words, how many will die in your name?

It's good that Jack is still grieving after six months. It shows he was deeply invested emotionally. It's a natural mourning process. I think we'd feel cheated if he put on a brave face and carried on as normal, and you can't truly lead people and provide optimism if you're faking it. He needs a safe space, away from Earth, in order to heal. Goodness knows when people I lived with died, I wanted to be away from the house because of the constant reminders and the pain.

If Jack bumps into the Doctor during this mourning period, and sees how miserable the Doctor is because of denying himself deeper investment and running away, it will be a turning point. Choosing between loving and losing and healing, or constantly running from the fear of pain and being miserable... I'd grab onto the happy moments with both hands to tide me through the lonely periods. Jack has the advantage that he's not the only human on Earth defending the planet, so he can give up the job/take temporary leave. He's already recognised that he needs a break, so hopefully the Doctor will follow suit.

Lisa
Wishing Peter Capaldi many awards for his performance

At this point, Lisa

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I am pinning all of my hopes on your psychic abilities. :grin:

As someone else said, above Nine giving up a regeneration to save Rose - beautifully tragic. Even Doomsday. But add in LotTL, Voyage fo the Damned, JE, End of Days, and Exit Wounds and tragedy becomes a pattern not a surprise.

I am not only unhappy about this pattern repeating here...I am bored by it. And I think it could well be RTD's philosophy rather than part of any plan to give us the appropriate ending to Doctor/Rose. Though I agree with you that he certainly knows his last ending was inappropriate.

I, also, don't dispute what you say about Jack. I do feel he's showing appropriate mourning. And I think that he could be very effective in knocking some sense into the Doctor...because they are so alike. And I even could make a great case for that being part of a plan by RTD. But I'm not sure that the god-figure behind all of this intends to break a pattern that he's maintained for all of these seasons. It is true that hope is far more appropriate to Doctor Who than to Torchwood. But is hope something that RTD recognizes as a valid emotion...or is he so nihlistic that he wants our children's shows to stamp out hope.

Torchwood isn't really a children's show. It is supposed to be dark, seedy and largely hopeless...despite the cheesy, heroic voiceover Jack did at the beginning of every episode. I won't say that this ending isn't logical given all that Torchwood represented. And Jack gives us an upclose and personal view of what the Doctor is...really.

It was not lost on me, as I watched this unfold, that the Doctor also killed his own grandchild...and his brother...and the rest of his family. And the Doctor must also feel that guilt from disappointing everyone who believed in him (represented here by his daughter pressing her nose to the glass and then walking away from him), just so he could save those who he didn't even know (the rest of the universe....in the Doctor's case).

Choosing between loving and losing and healing, or constantly running from the fear of pain and being miserable... I'd grab onto the happy moments with both hands to tide me through the lonely periods.

Oh, so say we all, Lisa! But...does RTD agree with us? I'm not sure I can find any agreement in his work so far. The Pony is the way to go. It is the right and proper ending for the Doctor and Rose. But RTD seems to be saying the best hope you have is to keep looking for new experiences to cover up your lonliness. Keep running, because if you settle you will see the wasting away of everything you care about. That's what he's consistently said.

Which means...I hope you really are psychic. Here...poke this Christmas gift and tell me if it neighs and likes to frolic in tall grass!

:grin:

Rae

[athenesolon.livejournal.com]

As I was watching the final episode I was consistently reminded that this show seemed to (overall) portray the wort of humanity rather than the best. Everyone in Downing seemed to be making the selfish decision of making the lowest rating individuals (which I suspect you could 100% guess none of them has in their homes even with the assurance that they wouldn't lose any of their direct and second generation offspring to the aliens), the so called "drains on society," the target children rather than their own. The fact that JACK had to make that decision when it wasn't even his to make (it was his daughter's or even his grandson's decision to make) is what is so upsetting to me. I'm reminded of the scene where Rose and Harriet stand up and make the decision for the Doctor in "WW III." I get the feeling that what RTD seems to be saying to me is that they are the exception rather than the rule.

Sidenote: I've recently went back and watched Star Trek Voyager and consistently used to watch Star Trek TNG on what used to be called SciFi. Conversely to RTD the Roddenberry Universe (and these two series in particular) always seemed to show the best of humanity as the main human trait rather than the worst of humanity being the modus operandi. To be sure, the aliens in these universes many times were meant to be mirrors of our own worst failings as humans in an attempt to remind of of what we can and should become and many times are.

[maniacalshen.livejournal.com]

I reeeally thought we were getting a reset. Probably not with your hitchhiker theory, because it seemed too far-fetched, but something. It would have been lame and lazy, but it was the only logical thing I could think of. Unfortunately, that was when I was assuming that they intended to continue Torchwood, which... no longer seems likely. You can't kill off three of five team members in quick succession like that and hope to go on, I said, so Ianto would have to come back!

::sigh::

I agree with you. I'm weary of RTD and his constant parade of angst. Where's my teasing Innuendo Squad of Torchwood? Where's the spirit of the Doctor and Rose skipping through history, giggling and making inappropriate bets? Donna making the Doctor carry her hatboxes? These shows used to make me smile at the end.

It all just leads to a litany of woe, because everybody dies or gets messed up or gets left alone. Which the audience is swiftly tiring of.

Seriously, killing off Steven was beyond pushing it.

[astitchintime-9.livejournal.com]

So many great comments that I don't know where to begin to reply! I'll just put down some random thoughts:

Re: Doctor/Jack parallel angst. I've been humming "Agony" from Into The Woods* since I read that post. (And wishing that the Doctor would go "back to the wife".) And wondering if these aren't memories that Jack would be better off trading losing than those original lost "3 years". (Or would that be a part of any rewind? Must he become "the Face of Boe"?)

[* Sidenote Re: HEA. I'd have been happy to leave Into The Woods at the end of Act I. I suppose that's shallow, but I liked the uplifting ending -- as opposed to the bittersweet of ActII.]

Re: "We want a pony". How'd I miss the relevance of that to us here!? (Especially as I was so jazzed by seeing the swans in the wallpaper in an ep of s4?)

Re: RTD. I don't trust him to tell me a story. Not just because of DW, but after The Second Coming and Casanova. I keep wondering if he will really (dare to) show up at the San Diego Comic-Con after all, when he must know that the whole world will have seen CoE by then.

Re: The Story of Rose, and her Companion, The Doctor. Disheveled is how it ends. Canon for me.

Thought of another parallel

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

The dubious treatment of Earth children in Torchwood for the 'greater good' reeks of the Doctor's treatment of his 'children of time.' Those that live normal lives are left alone, while those that don't fit into desired behaviour are removed from view. I didn't like it in Journey's End, and I feel more people dislike it now in Torchwood. Hopefully it raises expectations of being informed of life changing situations, and being given a choice.

Lisa
Off to bed

*hugs*

[shaela]

I’m so sorry. I didn’t watch it, but from what I’ve heard, it’s hard to believe it was written by the same man who gave us the first season of Doctor Who. I can’t imagine anything less like the story about ordinary people saving the world that I fell in love with.

Re: *hugs*

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Mmmmm! Thanks for the hug!

I just popped over to your journal and left you a comment...on a really old thread. Can you believe you have been waiting so long for the show you loved to return?

Me, I enjoyed S2 and most of S4...and I never really felt the Doctor gave up on Rose or didn't love her. And when she returned to him I was so sure we would have a happy for her lifetime ending...but, now, I'm just not sure about it.

It's still possible, of course...even likely given the story so far...but given RTD's grim attitude...

Well...I've seen the decent into angst ruin more books and shows than I care to remember. There's just something about being a television writer that makes you just want to kill everyone off and be done with it.

Maybe RTD just never wants to be asked about Captain Jack again, but I think he may be in for a serious drubbing at Comic Con.

Rae

AH BUT THERE IS A PONY AND JACK MIGHT GIVE IT TO US!

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

Both Jack and the Doctor have one thing in common, they both had great losses. Some of it was them, but the rest well...shit happens. I believe, we'll be seeing Jack again and he and the Doctor will cross paths. Two things could happen. They can either have an emo session and sob over all they've lost or they can learn from it all, Jack goes back to Earth to re-establish Torchwood and the Doctor goes back to Rose. Both dry their tears, dust themselves off, and continue with life a little better than before.

Good points...but...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...there is another thing that could happen...Jack and the Doctor could meet and not mention any of this. Sort of like what happened in Journey's End...no mention of Jack's loss of people...no mention of what Rose meant to both of them...Rose doesn't even get a Jack hug. So...they could meet...deal with something...nod in passing...and go on with the regeneration story.

I know that would be completely unsatisfactory...but we do need, in light of CoE...to accept that RTD may just be having his companions all stop by for one more goodbye scene and that's all.

Rae
who will be mentioning the reasons we might still have a pony in a post tomorrow...and your reasons are covered...because, yes, I do see those possibilities.

[sal101010.livejournal.com]

Good points on Frobisher - I think that was the only way left that he had to go. I'd forgotten to comment on that scene and I still can't face a rewatch so I am relying on other people's comments for reminders!