TORCHWOOD...Episode 4...Spoilers!
Jul. 10th, 2009 02:42 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rabid1stHave you people ever noticed that I simply refuse to give up my perfectly good theories even after RTD has dumped cold water all over them?
And under the cut we go...
So, Ianto has died. And so has Clem and our heroes are running for their lives and the 456 can make, at least, some of their threats into real terror. I did have my doubts about Jack's (well, Ianto's) plan to just walk right in there and stand up to aliens who ride down from the heavens on a column of fire and can make kiddies speak in unison. I'm like, "Ianto, babe, I think we, at least, need a cloak of invisibility and a wheelbarrow to make this idea work."
While we were watching Episode 2 tonight, Jan asked me what the aliens were planning for Earth that could be so horrible and I said, "Well, they have that awesome power over all those children...imagine if they decided to make them all sing It's a Small World over and over and over again." :snicker:
The 456 appear to be some sort of parasitic (or symbiotic) creatures, perhaps living on the children as they "protect them" from aging. I was reminded of the children in Last of the Time Lords. Not the same scenario, true, but the same prosthetics, I think. And it is a delicate line for family television, showing people in government willing to sacrifice the under achievers. Do your homework, kids, or we will ship you off to the smelly alien ship. Poor old Albert Einstien wouldn't have made the cut for productive member of society. I wonder if Russell would have? RTD definitely comes from that working class background and he paints it in all its stupid glory. Loutish people with hearts of gold, taking their frustration out on the government vehicles. I, also, come from what would amount to "The Estates" and I am very familiar with people who have no hope of ever running the country. Sometimes those people turn out better than expected.
But, back to my theory and the cold water currently dripping off of it. Ianto fans will like it, because it means Ianto isn't really dead. He's only mostly dead. I believe that Clem was rejected, as I've said, because he has a hitchhiker onboard. I believe the hitchhikers are the natural predators for the 456...and maybe have a little of that mojo that makes kiddies live forever, too. So...as Jack and Gwen sit there, cradling each other...I fully expect Ianto to gasp and come back. Which would serve Jack right after all these times he's done it. That's what I would do anyway. I would have Ianto come back...and Gwen and Jack go...OMG! And this can MEAN something...but nobody knows what it means...until Clem also comes back. Clem, I think, could have more than just a hitchhiker onboard...he could know that the 456 don't like hitchhikers. And that will allow our heroes to defeat the bad guys.
Will Ianto simply go on with his hitchhiker? Which I feel would be very cool...especially if there is only one rejuvenation allowed or something. Or maybe the hitchhiker protected Ianto from the virus but not that soundwave and the soundwave knocked him into a near death coma.
Maybe I'm grasping at straws here...because I don't fancy a series without Ianto Jones in it. He was my favorite character in the first season of Torchwood. Rhys became my favorite in S2. I really don't care for the Torchwood people...even Jack often bores me. Like with the quoting and sometimes there is a little too much makeup and a bit too little true emotion from Jack. I like him when he's a rebel without support, though. I think it gives him a little more cockiness. With Jack...I sort of feel he deserves some of the warnings people deliver on his behalf. I only believed those from Rose when they were about the Doctor. Sarah Jane, btw, really cannot deliver those "Now you are in trouble" lines. <<--just an aside.
Personally, I want someone to deliver one of those lines about Rose. Jack would be a nice person to deliver it. Something like, "You all know me? What I can do? Well...she MADE me the way I am. You might want to avoid ticking her off."
Okay...back to the episode. I didn't find it disappointing, and I suspected I would. I really enjoyed the conference where the big shots decided who would lose their children. The expendable immigrants and the disinfranchised poor. Nobody at the table, though. This is serious peril...and a very nice turning point with Jack and Company taking charge and then being put in their place.
But I do see that given all they intend to cram into the NEXT episode...we are going to run short of narrative time and RTD will probably not be able to fit in all of those grand scenes he likes AND resolve all of this in a satisfactory manner. Such a shame I can never get my grubby fingers on his scripts before they are filmed. He really needs a light check on his reins. This set up we have here, needs about two more hours to wrap. That is, if he means to have Gwen in hiding recording desparate diaries...and then running for her life with Jack's son...and then saving the world. Not to mention giving full coverage to Forbisher's family and Jack's daughter and Ianto's neice and nephew, not to mention, mourning the fallen and such.
It's too much to cover...so, I predict we are all doomed to be disappointed. But then, I think Ianto isn't really dead...so you can't listen to me. :grin:
Rae
And under the cut we go...
So, Ianto has died. And so has Clem and our heroes are running for their lives and the 456 can make, at least, some of their threats into real terror. I did have my doubts about Jack's (well, Ianto's) plan to just walk right in there and stand up to aliens who ride down from the heavens on a column of fire and can make kiddies speak in unison. I'm like, "Ianto, babe, I think we, at least, need a cloak of invisibility and a wheelbarrow to make this idea work."
While we were watching Episode 2 tonight, Jan asked me what the aliens were planning for Earth that could be so horrible and I said, "Well, they have that awesome power over all those children...imagine if they decided to make them all sing It's a Small World over and over and over again." :snicker:
The 456 appear to be some sort of parasitic (or symbiotic) creatures, perhaps living on the children as they "protect them" from aging. I was reminded of the children in Last of the Time Lords. Not the same scenario, true, but the same prosthetics, I think. And it is a delicate line for family television, showing people in government willing to sacrifice the under achievers. Do your homework, kids, or we will ship you off to the smelly alien ship. Poor old Albert Einstien wouldn't have made the cut for productive member of society. I wonder if Russell would have? RTD definitely comes from that working class background and he paints it in all its stupid glory. Loutish people with hearts of gold, taking their frustration out on the government vehicles. I, also, come from what would amount to "The Estates" and I am very familiar with people who have no hope of ever running the country. Sometimes those people turn out better than expected.
But, back to my theory and the cold water currently dripping off of it. Ianto fans will like it, because it means Ianto isn't really dead. He's only mostly dead. I believe that Clem was rejected, as I've said, because he has a hitchhiker onboard. I believe the hitchhikers are the natural predators for the 456...and maybe have a little of that mojo that makes kiddies live forever, too. So...as Jack and Gwen sit there, cradling each other...I fully expect Ianto to gasp and come back. Which would serve Jack right after all these times he's done it. That's what I would do anyway. I would have Ianto come back...and Gwen and Jack go...OMG! And this can MEAN something...but nobody knows what it means...until Clem also comes back. Clem, I think, could have more than just a hitchhiker onboard...he could know that the 456 don't like hitchhikers. And that will allow our heroes to defeat the bad guys.
Will Ianto simply go on with his hitchhiker? Which I feel would be very cool...especially if there is only one rejuvenation allowed or something. Or maybe the hitchhiker protected Ianto from the virus but not that soundwave and the soundwave knocked him into a near death coma.
Maybe I'm grasping at straws here...because I don't fancy a series without Ianto Jones in it. He was my favorite character in the first season of Torchwood. Rhys became my favorite in S2. I really don't care for the Torchwood people...even Jack often bores me. Like with the quoting and sometimes there is a little too much makeup and a bit too little true emotion from Jack. I like him when he's a rebel without support, though. I think it gives him a little more cockiness. With Jack...I sort of feel he deserves some of the warnings people deliver on his behalf. I only believed those from Rose when they were about the Doctor. Sarah Jane, btw, really cannot deliver those "Now you are in trouble" lines. <<--just an aside.
Personally, I want someone to deliver one of those lines about Rose. Jack would be a nice person to deliver it. Something like, "You all know me? What I can do? Well...she MADE me the way I am. You might want to avoid ticking her off."
Okay...back to the episode. I didn't find it disappointing, and I suspected I would. I really enjoyed the conference where the big shots decided who would lose their children. The expendable immigrants and the disinfranchised poor. Nobody at the table, though. This is serious peril...and a very nice turning point with Jack and Company taking charge and then being put in their place.
But I do see that given all they intend to cram into the NEXT episode...we are going to run short of narrative time and RTD will probably not be able to fit in all of those grand scenes he likes AND resolve all of this in a satisfactory manner. Such a shame I can never get my grubby fingers on his scripts before they are filmed. He really needs a light check on his reins. This set up we have here, needs about two more hours to wrap. That is, if he means to have Gwen in hiding recording desparate diaries...and then running for her life with Jack's son...and then saving the world. Not to mention giving full coverage to Forbisher's family and Jack's daughter and Ianto's neice and nephew, not to mention, mourning the fallen and such.
It's too much to cover...so, I predict we are all doomed to be disappointed. But then, I think Ianto isn't really dead...so you can't listen to me. :grin:
Rae
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-10 07:28 am (UTC)Of course, what happens more often than not, is Rusty kicks the crap out of that hope and then does a little Mexican Hat Dance on it just for good measure. But hey, that's not your fault. :D
Nice to see you. And I'm happy I cheer you up...
Date: 2009-07-10 07:38 am (UTC)Yeah, common sense tells us that RTD is probably just enjoying the pathos of the moment, thinking he's made us all cry so his job here is done.
I like to think I would do better in his place, make people happier than he does...but then...he and I would probably argue that point. :grin:
It wasn't like I thought Ianto would go on forever...but this seems like a pretty pointless death. It wasn't even that emotionally wrenching for me and I seriously love Ianto Jones.
Rae
thinking when they overdo the melodrama it loses some of its impact.
Re: Nice to see you. And I'm happy I cheer you up...
Date: 2009-07-10 08:06 am (UTC)I was the same. I bawled when Owen died. I bawled when Tosh died. I seriously bawled over Donna's fate, and don't get me started on Rose.
Here I felt I should cry but I just didn't feel it. I was upset, sure, but not nearly as much as, I believe, he deserved.
I do agree with you that there is still so much story to be told that one more hour will be a disservice. But it's totally in character for RTD to leave so many, if not loose ends, then definitely untidy ends.
He's always trying to top himself. JE had to be bigger than LotTL and now here he's got this new 5 hour platform I think he got a little carried away like a kid in a candy store.
Good story telling, is just that. Good story telling. Now it's my opinion that if RTD had more confidence in himself and he didn't always leave things to the last minute like he says he does in A Writer's Tale then he could write much more, satisfactory endings, for lack of a better term. He has a gift to be sure, but it's all getting to predictable and maybe that's why Ianto's death didn't have the impact it should have. Been there, done that. Done much worse actually. *sniff* Donna *sniff*
I'm sure this early hour is making me overthink all this and I hope you don't mind me rambling on like this in your journal.
Off to bed for me.
Re: Nice to see you. And I'm happy I cheer you up...
Date: 2009-07-10 08:11 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-10 07:49 am (UTC)I think it might be too intimate
Date: 2009-07-10 08:03 am (UTC)I think, both the Doctor and Jack are protecting Rose. You will notice not only did the Doctor not tell Rose what was going on with Jack...Jack didn't say anything either. Anyone with time traveling ability could serious screw with the Doctor's personal time line via Rose Tyler. There is a reason the Bad Wolf erased all of her files in Torchwood.
Rae
who still feels the awesome power of Miss Rose Tyler everytime Jack returns from the dead. She did that...and she was able to do it...because she refused to be hustled off to a "better life" and let her Doctor suffer.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-10 08:06 am (UTC)I've a feeling that Jack will remain the character who allows other people into his heart, though he's putting up more barriers than we've seen up to now. I'll be very interested to see how they integrate him into the DW finale because all I'll be able to imagine is the scenario of Jack knocking the alien bastard's teeth out for not being there when he was needed most. What a great scene that would be to write - I think Jack would let rip about how every bit of the pain of losing Ianto was worth it for the joy of loving him.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-10 09:09 am (UTC)To which the Doctor replies, "This is why I don't get attached."
I suppose it depends on how bleak it is
Date: 2009-07-10 09:13 am (UTC)I hate to be meta here...but the world can't end on Torchwood and then go on celebrating Christmas on Doctor Who later in the year.
Not that the meta necessarily means Ianto is going to come back...but...they do have to find a way to stop the 456, before the children are collected. And unless something comes flying out of left field...I believe Clem and/or the hitchhikers are our best bet outside of say...a rift shift reset or the 456 turns out to be one alien in serious need of a transplant...or...it dies of a simple cold virus...whatever.
You mention the 9/11 tragedy. And I remember just afterward, when some show tried this sort of melodramatic death. I thought about the simplemindedness of television writers...always pulling out the same stunt over and over again. There comes a time when the audience is numb to angst and tragedy. And melodrama is only entertaining to teenagers. Sure, maybe that's the demographic most television writers are trying to reach...but still...just change it up a little...allow for happy and irreverent endings as well as...oh, another sappy goodbye.
Not really disappointed in RTD...but this loss walks a very close line to the Joss Whedon record of one tragedy too many. It won't matter if Jack's heart is open or not...if nobody is watching the show. I do hope that Jack does get a chance to express some of the things the Doctor needs to hear. But...probably...RTD will be pressed for time...and so Jack will show up, shoot someone, and run away laughing.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-10 10:04 am (UTC)Doomed to Disappointment
Date: 2009-07-10 11:30 am (UTC)I saw Ianto's death coming when he said, "The Jack I know would stand up to them." I think Ianto will stay dead, because if he comes back to life there is no reality to Torchwood and its new BBC1 audience. No-one would care about Torchwood if none of them could die, that they had nothing to fear. That lady operative said of Alice's mother that Torchwood staff rarely died of old age/natural causes. For a threat this big, someone has got to die. Suzie died in season 1, Tosh and Ianto in Season 2. It stands to reason that someone would die in Season 3... Jack doesn't stay dead, Gwen is pregnant and Rhys isn't officially a member. We probably don't feel so upset by Ianto's death because the Season is shorter and we're not getting gaps between episodes to fully appreciate the emotional weight.
I think Frobisher's children are going to die as well. The government will make him give up his children so the rest of the population is more willing to subscribe to the 'inoculation' programme. At which point Frobisher will kill himself because he obviously is emotionally stressed by the whole experience, which he is leading. "Expendable." He'd never be able to look his wife in the eye.
I think Ianto's family will survive... as you say, RTD glorifies "The Estates." As the Government is targeting the under-achievers that tend to come off the council estates, they will get to survive.
They haven't done anything important with Jack's daughter and grandson yet. The show is called "Children of Earth" so we could be looking at a chanting like Last of the Time Lords and the ArchAngel network... invert the signal the 456 are using to speak through the children to destroy them. Biggest backfire in history, etc. Sound/voice is the only sense we detect of the 456, so it's the only channel of attack. They need a child to test the idea, and Jack's grandson is the closest. Cue angst by Jack's daughter that she was right to stay away from her father. Makes the Doctor sending Rose away seem so much nicer.
As for the 456, I find it a tad convenient that they popped up in 1965 with a cure for a supposedly human disease. They have just demonstrated they are very efficient at biological warfare... so I'm thinking the 456 made the pandemic before. The hitchhiker idea makes sense here... the pre-pubescent children make endorphins for the 456, but only when they are young. This is drug addiction, making the aliens evil rather than simply surviving like the Adipose.
Gwen as the audience-identification character gets to do what she likes. The world is ending, so I'm going to take time out to record our final moments instead of saving it. It would help if the Gwen snippets were sending a beacon or distress signal out to warn others of what was happening rather than documenting the demise. Astrid shows that humans are all over the universe and Jack should know that, and that human children beyond Earth could be next. But, we need to take a moment to hit rock bottom... no hope, world really is ending, contrast to any panic and chaos when children start being taken.
Lisa
Who needs sleep?
Well, I can't argue with you...
Date: 2009-07-10 04:42 pm (UTC)I think Ianto's family will survive... as you say, RTD glorifies The Estates
I actually think they will survive because RTD glorifies pathos and melodrama...and a young mother clutching the children Ianto helped save while Jack stands there telling her of Ianto's death...it reeks of so many RTD finales...that I can see him not being able to resist it. Certainly, if the children die...or are taken...we will have that scene...because the heroes must suffer as well.
I do also agree with you that Forbisher will be forced to give up one of his own children...to make things look politically correct. And that will make a very dramatic scene...and I think someone in the government chain of listeners could put Jack's child in the queue to protect their own.
Ten percent of the children...isn't going to stop the world from turning...as the 456 and the voice of the Daleks...both told us this is a burden the population can bear. But, again, it really does speak to an Earth that bears very little resemblence to our own...and RTD and Company are risking losing something vital to the success of Doctor Who and Torchwood by giving us a bleak ending here...and again in Doctor Who. If they don't reset, they could well lose our ability to relate to this SciFi world at all. This isn't our Earth. This does set up the idea that it is a hellish alternative dimension...far more even than the show Angel set up that his version of LA was actually Hell.
I'm just saying...there comes a point when you are almost forced to reset. So...I look for a logical solution to the problem...via the Hitchhikers.
Rae
Think about it though...if Ianto wakes up...
Date: 2009-07-10 04:48 pm (UTC)I know that Ianto has all the signs pointing at him that said he would die...and he does die...but I don't think he should stay dead. I think his death should be relevent to the plot...since it's currently just meaningless pathos. As you say, he dies because somebody has to in order to teach us a lesson.
Rae
Ianto's death
Date: 2009-07-10 05:53 pm (UTC)Having someone you love die at your side because it's your job to fight evil aliens is the reality of the Doctor sending the companions away that don't leave under their own steam. The life is dangerous to mortals. It's heartbreaking when they inevitably get killed.
Ianto's death also shows that being in love on the front line isn't good. Jack is willing to let the 456 have what they want... if they spare Ianto. The Doctor is equally as wreckless in defending the Universe when Rose is around. Arguably, Ianto died because Jack listened to the romantic plea to do things as a 'couple.'
It's support for our pony. The Doctor is in no fit state to defend the universe with Rose travelling at his side. Equally, his decision making sucks because he's miserable without her. The solution is for him to give up his job, be domestic with Rose and die a mortal.
Lisa
Amused that the armed forces was anti-gay because you'd prioritise your front-line lover over defending your country
Well...yes...if we have overlap
Date: 2009-07-10 06:02 pm (UTC)Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-10 11:36 am (UTC)Time will tell.
You know what?
Date: 2009-07-10 04:17 pm (UTC)This is exactly why I, as a writer, would do it. I would set up the audience to expect the death...with the foreshadowing you mentioned. And, of course, set up the joke of it with the mirror of Ianto holding Jack in his arms during the next to last Jack death.
But mostly I would do it because the audience by this time would be so certain they knew my act (just like we are all sure we know what's going on...even as we quite obviously do not)...and Ianto sitting up right now and gasping...well...that could be explained by a couple of plot-centric twists...and it would be totally unexpected. Surprising an audience is what keeps an audience, as long as you can explain the surprise so they don't feel cheated. Pointless jerking around of your audience will rile them.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-10 12:28 pm (UTC)I've watched TW casually in the past and even though this story is keeping me invested a bit more, I still don't have much investment in the characters (like I had in DW). I'm really glad too, because otherwise RTD might have ruined another show for me.
I'm not watching a show to depress myself. And if bad things keep happening to characters I'm invested in that will happen. So I'm glad not to have the same investment and I really hope I'll never get as invested in a show again as I was in DW.
I do think Ianto will either stay dead or that there will be a total reset. Both are options I'm not looking for in storytelling. I do agree that sometimes, in world ending situations, it can become unrealistic if everyone but the main characters are dying. But by now the whole team is about killed off. And there really wasn't a reason why Ianto had to be in that room with Jack. This was something Jack could easily do on his own. And since the dying was only in that building instead of worldwide (so far), I really don't see why a main character had to die.
But for you I hope it'll get fixed.
Anyway, I'm actually here to ask you a question. I'm reading your posts about TW and you keep talking about hitchhikers. And I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Is this something you made up or have I missed an episode I should be watching? I do think I may not have watched all episodes of the previous seasons. Could you give me a hint?
K.
Questions are the meat of storytelling
Date: 2009-07-10 04:29 pm (UTC)It is the question I asked straight out of the box...when I saw the Hitchhiker. It passed over most people, I'm sure, so you are not alone.
But as Children of Earth opens...Jack and Ianto are waiting to see a dead body...the devious doctor gives them access to "their friend" and they use a laser scalpel to remove a still living being from the body of the dead man. They call the living creature, a Hitchhiker. Later Gwen explains to the devious doctor fellow that Hitchhikers are harmless creatures that make their hosts "feel good." She tells Dr. Devious (sorry I have no idea how to spell his real name) that "anyone could have" a Hitchhiker inside and you would never know.
At that point in the story we had no idea about Clem being "rejected" by the 456. We thought he'd simply run away. But in the last episode Clem clearly states that they "didn't want me." He walked into the light and was rejected. Also, as they kill him...with the burst of noise...which also registars in the room with Ianto...the 456 refer to "the remnant." We are meant to assume that this is a reference to their rejection of Clem...that they refer TO Clem. But...I can't help noticing how Clem keeps asking, "Is it?" over his shoulder.
My theory is that Clem has one of these "harmless" Hitchhikers inside...but they aren't all that "harmless" to the 456. I also think they might not only make their host humans "happy" but possibly protect them from attack from the 456...and so...it is possible...that Ianto has a Hitchhiker and doesn't know it...and he's been protected by it.
Rae
Re: Questions are the meat of storytelling
Date: 2009-07-10 05:24 pm (UTC)It could well be...
Date: 2009-07-10 05:40 pm (UTC)Of course, that is stretching things a little...given the Master was resurrected by the Time Lords to fight their war. <<--assuming that's true.
The only problem I have with the idea of the bottle universe...is people will yell that this is "Dallas" all over again. It would be a huge cheat to claim that nothing we experienced with the Doctor was real. There are signs, however, that the Earth needs a major reset. They stand to lose the dividing line between humans and the Doctor this way.
Either RTD means to lose that dividing line...or he means to reset. Or...nobody really cares and the show is going to tank soon anyway...so we shouldn't care either. :grin:
Still...a bottle universe would make logical narrative sense...even if it is viewed by many as "And it was all a dream." And...it would be another good way to have our pony and yet also deny it globally...the Doctor could ask to spend a lifetime with Rose...and the anti-Rose crew could console themselves with "She's not real...so this is just a dream for him...not love or sex or whatever."
Your other point about "Chavs" is well taken...I think Rose and Ten would be kicking some serious ass by now. Rose would be sputtering a bit. And it could well be that the lack of innocence of the children makes them "unworthy"...that would be interesting if derivitive. I don't like it as well as the hitchhiker idea...because it would be a passive solution to the problem. Rather like being saved by a cold virus, ala War of the Worlds. Lazy, I call that.
Rae
BTW...if it is a bottle universe...
Date: 2009-07-10 05:44 pm (UTC)Of course, that could just be Lonely God grandstanding. But...I want it to make sense! Just as I want the throw away line from Jack about "having some purpose" to be foreshadowing and not just wishful thinking.
Rae
Hitchhikers
Date: 2009-07-10 06:39 pm (UTC)To me, Clem didn't look all that happy... he didn't look like a man with an alien releasing endorphins into his system. His rejection by the 456 can be explained by starting puberty and having the wrong hormones to make the host-456 happy.
He has to have a nervous tick, otherwise he wouldn't have been locked up in a mental asylum. He's spent his whole life believing in things that no-one else did. But, like you, I am curious as to what he's talking to on/behind his shoulder, and why his sense of smell is so acute.
Presumably the 456 can tell the proximity of a Hitchhiker, so it's problematic getting one grafted in order to save the day. That's assuming we only need one HitchHiker, that there is only one 456 in the vicinity. If we need more Hitchhikers to defeat... 10% of kid's worth of 456, we're stuffed.
I'd like to think that Torchwood have regular screening of their staff for Hitchhikers, so if Ianto has one it will be small. I don't know if the youth of Hitchhikers is key to defeating the 456. Presumably, Clem's Hitchhiker would have been young, too.
I'm bothered about Hitchhikers saving the day because they were only mentioned on Day One and haven't been mentioned since. Jack and Ianto's family have been mentioned in every episode (I think), and Jack's family are yet to prove vital but we've had constant reminders of their existence. Personally, I see parallel between hitchhikers making humans happy the way young children make the 456 happy... and because it's not angsty RTD won't pursue it. ;-)
I'm thinking that lethal burst of sound will prove key. The only sense we have of the 456 is sound. If they can kill by transmitting it to children they are connected to... and Clem suggests that the link is a lasting one... then maybe sound can be backfired along that link.
Lisa
Re: Hitchhikers
Date: 2009-07-10 07:11 pm (UTC)If puberty is the key, though...then why is Clem still able to hear the 456? And, again, who is he talking to...over his shoulder and why is his sense of smell so keen? Yes, I suppose he could have a tick of some sort...to end up in a mental asylum...but the sense of smell has been important all along. I thought it related to the gaseous mixture the 456 travel through.
Obviously, defeating one alien is going to be easier than defeating a whole armada of them. And certainly there are signs that something is distressing the 456. Finding out WHAT is causing it to thrash and vomit could be significant. As you say...there was a particularly pitched sound that caused Clem to "die."
And I am almost certain Clem is not dead...even if Ianto is...I am certain of that because Clem is with the lady who is trying so hard to explain about Jack's immortality. She will have a ready answer (an incorrect one) if Clem comes back to life right in front of her. And, obviously, I don't think that the hitchhikers make a host immortal...I feel this is just a textural connection to whatever keeps the host kids in stasis.
Ianto's family could be important for the relation to the Estates...a connection for us to the common man, RTD loves so much. And also to give Jack that opportunity to meet the family as he delivers news of Ianto's death. It speaks to the idea that Ianto is remembered even though he is gone.
I am not sure that really DOES play into our Pony. Because, as always, RTD could simply be saying that the Doctor was right to protect Rose and Donna from his dangerous life style...and it is enough that HE remembers them...that they will live on in his memory forever. Of course, that idea does bypass the meat of the thing...which Torchwood thankfully did not bypass...and that is what the people can do for the immortal folks. That it need not be a shallow or meaningless relationship just because it doesn't last your whole life long.
And by that, I mean...you can commit fully to someone who you know will die before you do...that's not a contradiction...or something to avoid because you can't bear the loss. Though...Jack certainly seems to be saying, "Don't leave me." And to be avoiding commitment...because Ianto has that complaint...then Jack melts and follows Ianto's lead...only to lose him. That seems to me to be underlining the idea that immortal people should just accept they will always be alone.
Of course...they COULD accept that and still enjoy the time they have with their beloved...savor every second of it. And I do hope that IS what Jack takes away from this if Ianto is truly dead. But...I still can't tell if that will be the final message.
Rae
Re: Questions are the meat of storytelling
Date: 2009-07-10 07:31 pm (UTC)I do agree with Nightbeast though. If the Hitchhikers have been mentioned so little as to slip my mind completely, it doesn't seem like it'll be a big part of the story. Though, I have to admit that my concentration level isn't one of the best. So that might just be my problem.
I also agree with Nightbeast that the Hitchhiker should be pretty new if it's present in Ianto. I assume Torchwood scan themselves and the scan saw the bomb in Jack and a 3 week old embryo in Gwen. So I assume it would have detected a Hitchhiker. And as far as I remember (though that apparently doesn't say much) nothing is said about Hitchhikers being able to protect the humans they live in. The person they took the Hitchhiker out of did die.
Anyway, thanks for reminding me about it. It's good to know what you're talking about. And this topic has some really good ideas from you and the others.
K.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-10 04:49 pm (UTC)He was happiest when the Doctor was going through the wringer. So now, INSTANT ANGST, just add water. Gotta give Jack something to fret about for the next 50 years. I read somewhere that the next season's Jack will be more like the first season. More callous.
As for the kids? Lets give No Child Left Behind some teeth!
(For our UK friends NCLB is really No Administrator Left Standing, if the kids don't succeed according to some ridiculous guidelines, the admin gets fired. Never mind that the kids are not supported at home, etc..... I'm not bitter at all. :P)
Oh, I do remember that RTD likes angst
Date: 2009-07-10 05:30 pm (UTC)Certainly, the fictional world of Torchwood and Doctor Who could absorb a loss of ten percent of its children...given this Earth absorbed being dragged across time and space by the TARDIS. But...well...there is also the resolution of the episode. Is the point of this five night special: "Torchwood is useless in a crisis!"
Of course, Clem has a Hitchhiker...I'm sure of it. And I'm sure that is the key to his survival and solving the whole mess...but someone is sitting up and going on after death. I just feel it would be better storytelling if RTD played to dark humor rather than his usual angst at this point.
Rae
who feels you are not only bitter...but starting to get bored.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-10 05:21 pm (UTC)I was intrigued by the mention of the kids being on the cusp of puberty. That reminded me of someone who's work RTD has referenced before - Philip Pullman. I see the 456 as a decadent race in a Dorian Grey type scenario - that through over-indulgence they have lost their ability to remain vital, possibly to reproduce, and that somehow they are getting addicted to the innocence of children. It could be a fascinating idea to play with, particularly since I think most folks would agree that kids were more innocent in 1965 than they are now. Handing over the most deprived, poorly achieving children could spin that in a way that would fit well with RTD's affection for the working class.
God, how I would have loved to see Rose Tyler's reaction to that conversation. And the Doctor's. As someone who epitomised "chav" in a way that many British people found more shocking than an ethnic minority companion would have been.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-10 09:20 pm (UTC)Rose: I love you
Doctor: Don't....
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-10 10:30 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-10 10:32 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-11 01:46 am (UTC)As a side note - why has there not been any sharing of ep 5 yet? This "cliff hanger" is driving me spare.
Also, the cabinet meeting was interesting to watch. The PM is working on my last nerve to the point where I was starting to like the woman until I realized where she was going with her bitching. It seemed to be a very realistic portrayal of what I'd expect from most politicians though.
Einstein myth nitpick
Date: 2009-07-17 08:03 am (UTC)