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rabid1stLMAO! I was redirected to BBC America's Doctor Who site and, of course, I had to check out what they were saying about my beloved Rose Tyler.
And I quote..."Rose was perhaps the closest the Doctor has been to being in a relationship. Close but no cigar!"
You know...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...but not in this case. Back in my gay theater days...that comment would have had my friends and I punning for weeks. For example..."You can put his cigar to the fire, but you can't get it lit."
http://www.bbcamerica.com/content/123/rose-tyler-billie-piper.jsp
And I quote..."Rose was perhaps the closest the Doctor has been to being in a relationship. Close but no cigar!"
You know...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...but not in this case. Back in my gay theater days...that comment would have had my friends and I punning for weeks. For example..."You can put his cigar to the fire, but you can't get it lit."
http://www.bbcamerica.com/content/123/rose-tyler-billie-piper.jsp
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Speaking of the lovely Billie
Date: 2009-07-02 02:34 am (UTC)Re: Speaking of the lovely Billie
Date: 2009-07-02 05:09 pm (UTC)Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-02 04:54 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-02 05:11 pm (UTC)Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-02 06:57 pm (UTC)And yet he not only gives her up... he pretty much pushes her into leaving. I like the... the... I'm not even sure what word to use for it. The intrinsic contradiction.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-02 07:54 pm (UTC)The passive solution is the one most people are expecting. Basically, in that solution the Doctor sees how he has positively influenced everyone who has traveled with him and how they have positively influenced him. He regenerates determined to appreciate the time he gets to spend with people. And we put the longing and angst of the RTD years behind us.
The active solution is that the Doctor sees that he really needs people in his life and takes the steps needed to assure those people who are closest to him that he truly DOES need and love them. He honors Donna's wish to travel with him by giving her back her memories. He allows Ten 2 to live whatever life he wants to live, instead of tying him to Rose's apron strings for life. And...he allows himself a life with Rose Tyler...where they can both be happy until she dies. Of course, he knows that he will outlive her...as he knows he will outlive River or any other person he cares for...that is his lonely burden. However, like Jack, the Doctor learns to cherish the time he DOES have with people...and allows himself to truly express his feelings.
The active role is the most heroic one...it does not fundamentally change the series...for the most part the Doctor would still pick up strays...but he would be careful with them...not out of a sense of being superior to them...or never having a life with them...but because there COULD be consequences. Of course, generally, there would be a logical distance...because he would not want to suffer love and loss...needlessly.
It is, in the end, simply the difference between living an heroic life or a cowardly life. Either you embrace the love that life gives you or you run away because one day you will lose.
Rae
hoping RTD and the Doctor have made the heroic choice.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-03 01:36 pm (UTC)I particularly want to see resolution to Donna's situation, but there are a number of things I want even more: a sincere 'thank you' to Captain Jack being top of the list.
I would like to see a better resolution to Rose's situation - a chance for her to make her own choices, perhaps - though I can't imagine how I would want that to happen. I don't particularly want Rose back as the Doctor's Companion, though I think that's what Ten would want (if he allowed himself to have what he wants). I simply feel unsatisfied that the Doctor sent her to a fate not of her wishing. By giving her responsibility for clone-Ten, the Doctor has tied her to that fate. She isn't going to abandon a responsibility, least of all one that looks like Ten.
It brings us back to the same situation as the end of Doomsday - Rose with a life ahead of her in a universe that is not her own, where she does not want to be. The difference? Her responsibility to her charge/lover/surrogate Doctor. I can't think of a resolution now that would satisfy me and not either make things worse, or simply be another turn of the wheel to another variation on the dilemma. Does RTD have something clever up his sleeve?
Most of all, I'd like to see the Doctor make a coherent reply to Davros (or a surrogate) about how he doesn't bring death and destruction to his companions or simply use them as weapons, and that his role is a valid one. I'm not sure the Doctor has worked this through yet.
I liked Nine's guilt so much more than Ten's.
I don't want to lose the Doctor's suffering and angst. I just want to see the relationships resolved better.
The issue of outliving loved ones always seems like a non-issue to me. A Time Lord, of all people, most know that wherever he goes, he can only live in the present, and to live obsessed with death is a worse hang-up than he's acquired so far. Or so I hope.
Anyway, I too want heroic choices, and a better fate than we've had so far for Rose and Donna.
This is the core of the issue...
Date: 2009-07-03 02:18 pm (UTC)RTD has presented the Doctor as afraid of losing those he loves. Or...of ruining their lives. Now, the solution everyone is pointing toward...is that the Doctor proves to have made the "RIGHT" decision for everyone. And then, he can die happy. I would DEEPLY resent that being the solution to this set of horrors, because it allows the Doctor to go on playing God. Even if he regenerates and feels better about his own personal loss...and even if Donna finds happiness without her memories and Rose marries Ten 2 and decides she's better off...I am left madder than a wet hen about all of this.
He doesn't have the right to make these sort of decisions for other people...and I think the only way to compound the travesty of this story at this point is to make none of it matter in the long run. I think that is why I get so riled up at the fanbase who not only appear to be embracing that idea...but seem to feel we have no other choice.
Rose does not need to go on as the Doctor's companion forever...because, according to the canon, Rose is a mortal human woman. I think there have been too many cases of fanon telling us she is not. If she IS...and there is no canon reason to assume otherwise...then she is going to die and leave the Doctor alone...just as he fears.
We skipped the Time War, narratively. We can certainly skip ahead 100 years to a time when great, great, great Grandma Rose has died and Grandpa John has been put in a rest home by his scattered relations. The cute little ward nurse who cares for the elderly residents and bucks the system to make sure they have a few comforts of home...will be surprised to learn that one of the new residents isn't as dottery as he seems...and, in fact, is still vital and handsome under his illusion of infirmaty...and away we go again with Ten in Pete's World.
All we really need in the show...for continunity...is for the Doctor to say that HE wants to be with Rose...and to go to Pete's World. Our camera stays in our world...with Jack (who, btw, I agree the Doctor has treated like an irresponsible child)...and Sarah Jane and Donna looking out for things.
Since the universal time is relevant...Ten leaves our universe...says his goodbyes...the TARDIS vanishes...the TARDIS reappears in our universe a few seconds later...Ten staggers out...and as he dies...says..."That was fun!" And Eleven appears.
Easy Peasy!
Rae
Re: This is the core of the issue... part 1
Date: 2009-07-03 03:49 pm (UTC)I think that's what a lot of people are expecting, because that's the kind of answer we get in other TV shows. I'm hoping that Doctor Who handles it a little better. There are hints that it may; or will. I'm thinking, for example, of "Bad Wolf", where his decisions in "The Long Game" set up a situation worse than what he fixed; or "The Stolen Earth", when Harriet Jones points out that she was right to destroy the Sycorax ship. Even the Doctor's apparent sense of guilt when Davros accused him, with some justification, of using his friends as weapons, implies that he knows he isn't always right. I don't think that the actions I consider his worst will be addressed any further than they have been - I'm thinking here of the use of River Song in "Forest of the Dead" and his treatment of Captain Jack; I think the resolution, such as it is, lies River's acceptance of her fate (rather like Rose's acceptance of her fate in "Journey's End") and Jack's unconditional forgiveness.
Which is just to say that "the Doctor is always right" is a card they have already used as a trick, and I think they are quite aware of the irony. He plays God and sometimes it works and sometimes it falls apart. I don't think it will end with an overt statement that he is not a god (lonely or otherwise), but just a person. But I think that assertion has been implicit throughout, and will remain so. I think the Doctor's heroic death will be a more immediate thing, with the moral grey areas still surrounding him.
Not that things always go the way I want them to in this show - ! Obviously.
I think we have all sorts of choice, and not just the choice to watch the show or not. I think we have myriad avenues of interpretation, some in line with Davies' intent, some not. There are many things about Ten I don't like, and about the stories that I don't like - hmm, might be fun to make a list. But the bottom line, and this is where the miracle of it all comes in: I still love the character and the show. Even if I still can upset myself remembering certain aspects of "The Last of the Time Lords", which remains problematic for me.
comment to be continued...
Re: This is the core of the issue... part 2
Date: 2009-07-03 03:52 pm (UTC)Of course Rose will die and leave the Doctor. That's what the universe is all about. The Doctor has already died and left her when he regenerated from Nine to Ten. "Everything changes." Immortals know this better than anyone. The Doctor doesn't need immortal companions, he needs a sense of proportion.
Which, to do him justice, I think he has - he also has a load of guilt and trauma and needs that sometimes make it hard for him to sort it all out. Pretty much the human condition, there - and the Time Lord condition. He isn't infallible. Which, really, is the whole point - the appearance of infallibility, and its falseness, is the problem we are poking at here.
And of course you are right, with time travel it can all be resolved. The Doctor gets a lifetime with Rose - her lifetime - exploring the universe as much as they wish. We can carry on afterwards. The only hitch I can see in that is the clone-Doctor, because Rose accepted him, and would have to leave him - but there's no intrinsic problem leaving him to live his life in Pete's World, knowing that Rose is happier elsewhere.
I do doubt this will happen, but I would like it.
Of all the possibilities, it will be interesting to see where they go with the Doctor, emotionally speaking. I think you are more pessimistic about it than I am, or perhaps more fearful. I think, with blind confidence, that I will be happy with most of the resolutions. This is totally irrational, since they gutted me with "The Last of the Time Lords" and distressed me with "Journey's End". On the other hand, I loved "The Parting of the Ways" and "Doomsday". So: two out of four so far.
I don't mind the Doctor being a Lonely God. What I mind is that he complains of loneliness, then pushes away those who love him for fear of being hurt by their loss, and then whines about it - that's not just self-pity, that's creating his own pain.
And I do mind seeing him mistreating his friends and lovers. I could list examples, but I'm sure you can see them as clearly as I can, starting with Rose and River.
The Clone Doctor is only a problem if...
Date: 2009-07-03 06:36 pm (UTC)I see no reason why clone Ten couldn't just as easily be off having adventures sans Rose right now. She's like his stepmom. And while he might cling to her hand just after being abandoned...I don't know that he would go on clinging to her. I know that he and Rose might feel some sort of obligation to stick together...but really...I can't see that leading to romantic attachment. Maybe it's just me...maybe I am so against the constraints of an arranged marriage that I can't see them learning to be happy.
But...if you are upset about River Song...then you would, I think, like to believe that River was right...and her life with the Doctor meant something...not that she was a chump like Rose and Donna. So far, we have nothing but chumps being taken advantage of by the Doctor...we do not have equals...or people he can respect. And...as you say...he goes around moaning about his losses.
To my way of thinking...Ten is still the last of his kind...and should remain so...that way nothing really would satisfy him at that Time Lord level. However, he could find such happiness as he is able to have in his current circumstances. He is disavantaged and his loved ones will die. One of the things people always point out to me when I say he could live out Rose's lifetime with her...then leave...is their children.
Okay...first...that predisposes they HAVE children. Second, the children would age, too. If we take the canon of Martha Jones and her super immunity...then Rose will remain vital and lovely perhaps into her 90's. IF they have children...those children will have children...and the Doctor and Rose will keep a low profile about how they are aging. So by the time they are great, great, grandparents...chances are they won't have close ties anymore. Kids drifts away, move, have their own lives...and then grandkids seldom visit. Once the kids marry...there will be spouse and inlaws and secrets to keep. I see the drifting away as a natural progression...and one that allows the Doctor to leave quietly at some point.
If the Doctor can man up and live the life he wants to life with Rose, then there is a chance River is telling us the truth...and she really did have something to cherish with him. As it currently stands..there is no chance that River is not a fool. She was an object, used and discarded onto a shelf where she wouldn't bother him again.
You don't say why you were disappointed with Last of the Time Lords. Were you a Master/Doctor fan? I am old school and remember that every Master story ends like that...so I can only say that I got what I was expecting, but it wasn't up to par for RTD. Also, I was not a fan of Tinkerbell Jeebus Doctor.
Anyway, I think that fixing what went wrong with JE...is easy. Ten 2...could prove to be just what Rose said..."Not you!" And then it is not about him being lost and lonely...but about him finding his OWN life. Which is what my story "Like Gum on Your Shoe" was designed to show...that it is insulting to this lovely new, new, new Doctor to assume he wants what Ten wants out of life.
Rae
Re: The Clone Doctor is only a problem if... reply part 1
Date: 2009-07-04 01:06 am (UTC)Since I don't read the Rose/Doctor fic, I'm not familiar with how others are playing it. The way I see it: clone-Ten loves Rose because the Doctor loved Rose and he has the Doctor's feelings and memories. But he isn't the Doctor, and insofar as he has characteristics of the Doctor, he may well have the sense of independence that is as much a characteristic of the Doctor as the desire for others is. He's part Donna, too, isn't he? She's an independent spirit as well.
In other words, it could be written either way.
I find myself rather callously disinterested in 10.5 anyway. My concern for him is merely a speculative projection of Rose's concern for him - which must exist, or she wouldn't have let Ten send her away with him in the first place. How deep does it go? Well. He isn't the Doctor. She is nothing if not loyal.
Put another way: the show implied romantic attachment between Rose and the clone-Doctor with that kiss, and I think we were meant to believe it. But it was about as convincing as straw hair on a puppet, and the emotional thrust of the whole story was that Rose loves the Doctor and didn't want to leave him. Mixed message? It might be, if the one side wasn't so unconvincing compared to the other.
And after all, that isn't her universe.
You don't say why you were disappointed with Last of the Time Lords. Were you a Master/Doctor fan?
Absolutely not. Not the least little tiny bit. Not in any way. No, really. I am possibly the only fan of Doctor Who alive who didn't much like John Simm as the Master (for all he was entertaining) and doesn't much like John Simm in general. I like a fair number of pairings for the Doctor: Doctor/Rose, Doctor/Jack, Doctor/Martha, Doctor/Sarah Jane, Doctor/Shakespeare (just threw that in...) but not Doctor/Master. Or at least, not Doctor/Simm!Master.
I have a lot of reasons for not liking "The Last of the Time Lords"; I hardly know where to start. I'll list my reasons in the next part of this reply...
I wasn't a huge fan of Simm either
Date: 2009-07-04 01:20 am (UTC)I suppose I can see where you are coming from with Rose letting the Doctor strand her with Ten 2...and that implying affection. I am afraid it did not seem to me that she was letting him do that so much as fighting him tooth and nail. I don't know what else she could have argued with him about...and if that horridly cruel comment by Doctor/Donna was actually canon (it is not...but it could be) then Rose has every reason to believe that she's been replaced and the Doctor wants her to go. I can't see her fighting that...any more than she DID fight it...she argued with him and cried and ran after him...that's not agreeing in my book.
I will allow that she was a little intrigued by the idea of Ten 2 being like the Doctor and able to live with her as a man might. And I will agree she gives him a very tepid kiss...her motives for doing that aren't as clear to me as they should be...given that she tears out of his rather limp embrace and runs after the Doctor.
As for Ten 2...well...he says he thinks like him...same memories, same thoughts, same everything. He specifically does NOT say he feels the same things Ten felt. And...beyond that...we have proof that he does not have the same feelings or make the same choices as Ten...because that's what Ten is upset about. Ten is saying that 10.2 is full of rage and killed the Daleks when HE, Ten would not have done so. So he is saying that 10.2 does NOT feel the same way HE feels about things.
Ten also points out that 10.2 NEEDS Rose...and Rose immediately says..."But he's NOT you." And he's not...because as you say...10.2 is part Donna. And Donna had ZERO interest romantically in Rose.
But THE most telling thing for me...is the reaction that Ten has when Jack dies...how he throws himself in front of Rose...how he wraps his body around hers, holding her close. At no point does 10.2 show that he cares for Rose at all...on that beach...all he does is respond to prompts. Donna tells him to explain everything to Rose...and he explains. Rose asks him what Ten was going to say on the beach that day...and he tells her. She is surprised by that...and kisses him. I think that kiss was more along the lines of checking to see if he's the Doctor...since she definitely remembered kissing him, Cassandra tells us this.
To me, there is absolutely nothing in that beach scene...and I've forced myself to watch it 50 times...to say that 10.2 and Rose have even the remotest interest in one another. They have been outmanuevered and they don't know what they are going to do about it. But I am hoping they plan to do something besides just give up and die.
Rae
Re: I wasn't a huge fan of Simm either
Date: 2009-07-04 02:14 am (UTC)Yes. Simm as the Master had some scenes I really liked very much indeed. I might add that I really, really liked the Derek Jacobi performance that preceded him. But there was a lot I didn't like about the Simm Master - a combination of portrayal, cinematography, and the writing.
I am afraid it did not seem to me that she was letting him do that so much as fighting him tooth and nail.
I'm not sure why Rose let him send her back to the other universe. It wasn't her universe. She'd never wanted to be there. It wasn't like in "Doomsday", where the Doctor initially wanted to send her across to save her life. He could have sent the other Doctor there on his own. So why - gratuitously - exile Rose all over again? And why did she let him do so?
and if that horridly cruel comment by Doctor/Donna was actually canon (it is not...but it could be) then Rose has every reason to believe that she's been replaced and the Doctor wants her to go
What comment? I don't follow...
No, she clearly didn't want to do, didn't want to leave our world, but she did go. And if we weren't meant to believe she did it for the sake of the clone Doctor, why did she go at all?
I'm perfectly happy to believe that clone-Doctor and Rose have no romantic interest in each other, because what we see is so tepid I don't believe it anyway. But without that, I'm at a loss as to why Rose let the Doctor send her to the other universe. Was it just because she was heartbroken that he didn't want her any more?
Okay...how is this for explaining...
Date: 2009-07-04 02:28 am (UTC)But...if we look at what is actually said...Jackie comes out of the ship and is all..."Back in bloody Norway." Then she and 10.2 start chatting about Tony. Certainly, Jackie is happy to be back. Rose says, "Hang on, this is the parallel universe, right?" And the DOCTOR says, "You're back home!" with a bit of a sigh and Donna talks about the walls of the universe closing again. So...at that moment...outside the TARDIS...Rose gets her first inkling that she's being tossed away like overripe fruit.
She then begins to kick...but...she's got three Doctor's set against her. 10.2, we must remember THINKS like 10...and so he knows what Ten is planning from the moment 10 announces they are headed for Bad Wolf Bay. Rose probably believes they are going to try to get her mother home somehow...not go directly to the parallel universe themselves...because WHY would they? 10. 2 though...has been glowering for a bit of time. He's just going along with this plan...because he can't think of a better one...given the Doctor's attitude.
And in the original script...Rose asks if the Doctor is going to be all alone...and Donna pipes up and says "Now he has me...his equal. Finally, he's got an equal." So...Rose has every reason to believe she's just not good enough and the Doctor is over her when she kisses 10.2 to see if he's going to do.
The reason what we see is so tepid is because it has been editted that way. It wasn't supposed to be tepid originally. For example...if 10.2 had been seen to hold Rose closer...as we see in the confidential kiss...it would have had more romantic overtones. Also, if that was the last we saw of Rose and 10.2...the passionate kiss...then we would have assumed she'd made that choice.
If, at any time, the Doctor had gotten over his deep love for Rose...we might have believed that he really was better and ready to let go of her. But instead we see how passionate he is about Rose...in that very episode...and we must compare it with how passionless...10.2 is about her. Why isn't 10.2 the one trying to convince Rose how wonderful this whole idea is? If he feels the same level of love...as 10...then he's getting what he wants most in the universe...surely...he could say so.
Rae
Re: Okay...how is this for explaining...
Date: 2009-07-04 02:36 am (UTC)It's hard, too, from the clone-Doctor's point of view. Seeing himself rejected by himself - though I suppose he understands better than anyone else would. And though we hear why the Doctor reacts as he does, I can't help concluding that the problem lies not in what the clone-Doctor did (which involved saving the day, after all) but in his horror at being suddenly less unique. (One of the few examples I can think of where the phrase 'less unique' might almost make sense.)
Re: The Clone Doctor is only a problem if... reply part 2
Date: 2009-07-04 01:08 am (UTC)10. Martha leaves the Doctor. I loved Martha, and I loved her with the Doctor, and I loved their semi-romantic theme. Hated to see her leave, though I liked her loyalty and heroism in that story.
9. The Doctor is mostly old throughout the episode, and doesn't look or act like himself. He might as well not be there. He does very little except watch the Master destroy mankind, and he loves him despite it. I can't even get my mind around that. He doesn't even come up with a good plan action. Since when is the Doctor so passive?
8. Tinkerbell Doctor.
7. Captain Jack endured a year of imprisonment and implied torture for the Doctor's sake, and the Doctor never so much as thanked him.
6. I hated the CGI.
5. Cute, bright children were eviscerated and made creepy. That squicked me.
4. Unconvincing plot: that everyone in the world can be organized to utter a certain prayer phrase at the same time - without the benefit of electronics, or mass communications, or even being able to gather in public? And that triggers a miracle? Even with Time Lords involved, I don't buy it.
3. I didn't like the cloaking devices, or the uses to which they were put. Which ties into point #4: I just didn't like the plot.
2. I hated seeing the TARDIS abused, dismembered, and eviscerated.
1. The Doctor dismantled Captain Jack's vortex manipulator. Jack has been abandoned by the Doctor, waited loyally for him for 130-odd years, bore with rejection and disapproval, held back on killing the Master on the Doctor's insistence, therefore spent a year in chains - and takes action at the last moment - only to be scolded and have his best device taken away from him. Jack is so besotted with the Doctor he'll let him do whatever he wants without a word of complaint, but I am indignant on his behalf.
That being said, there are things I liked about "The Last of the Time Lords", but my overall, I was appalled. It was the Doctor at his worst: unkind to his friends, allowing his enemy to victimize him, possibly even for a sort of racist imperative - though I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt there, that it was motivated by a combination of sentiment, guilt and personal affection.
I like the sound of your story "Like Gum on Your Shoe" - can you give me the URL?
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-02 05:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-02 05:08 pm (UTC)And...I want her to get her cigar. Apparently, 10.5 doesn't have a cigar. :wiggles eyebrows: I'm not surprised considering he's physically more like Donna on the inside.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2009-07-02 05:49 pm (UTC)Whereas I’m just as happy to put up a hedge around season one.
Also, anyone peripherally associated with this show… from Steven Moffat in his day… to the BBC… to the website managers… all of them fail to notice that Rose never LEFT the show. Rose was there throughout Season 3 and at all the high points of Season 4 as well.
I was thinking about that the other day. Billie is the only actor (and if you see Nine and Ten as separate characters, Rose is the only character) who appears in every season of the new series. But we’re supposed to believe that Rose was a minor character.
And… I want her to get her cigar. Apparently, 10.5 doesn’t have a cigar.
*laughs* That’s another thing. If Rose was never really “in a relationship” with the Doctor, then either Rose and Ten II aren’t together, or Ten II isn’t the Doctor.