Doctor Who...another way to fix JE...

[rabid1st]

Sorry I haven't posted in a long while...but my RL situation has been draining the sparkle and fizz from me for some time now. Still, I had a Gum On Your Shoe dream this morning...so things are looking up I guess. And as I woke from that dream I had a thought about another very easy way to correct the last few minutes of Journey's End without doing a major rewrite. Probably there is fic out there with this correction already...but just in case there isn't...I will stick this under a cut...

It dawned on me...in that half-awake state...that we don't really know that the Rose we encounter in Donna's created universe is the REAL Rose from Pete's World. Later, it seems to be THAT Rose who arrives in our world to explain that all of the universes are collapsing. But there is that one thing about her building a dimension cannon...and the other thing about her carrying the big old gun...and the final thing about her kissing the other him...even though she was very upset after the Doctor left.

So...what if they just say that the Rose from JE was an alternative Rose, one created from Donna's dream state? You will remember that the Doctor tests her...asks her to explain about the darkness she told Donna about in that created universe.

What if the REAL Rose...is still in Pete's World waiting for the REAL Doctor? We know that every decision you make creates another universe...so...the Doctor failing to return to Rose immediately would set off a possible chain of events that led to her building a dimension cannon. But she couldn't come for him until the walls of the universe gave way and that is linked to Donna and her storyline. So...I think...if my Timey-Wimey instincts are correct...that the Doctor could still make the choice to return to Rose Tyler where he left her on the beach in Doomsday...this wouldn't necessarily cross his own time line...because it would create an alternative universe from the point where he decides to return. So...there would be a Rose who existed for the time he was stalling...and that Rose has Faux Ten...and a Real Rose for Real Ten.

Something to consider...



Rae

Comments

[momdaegmorgan.livejournal.com]

Just three words:

I love you.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the love...I will hold out hope for the pony until Tennant is gone...simply because RTD knows he did the wrong thing...and because once he started to feel better, I'm sure he saw one of the myriad ways available to him to correct this mistake.

I mean...why leave something out there that is so obviously wrong?

Rae

[momdaegmorgan.livejournal.com]

I will hold out hope for the pony until Tennant is gone

I'll hold out with you though...*sigh* my ability to hope is practically nonexistent after JE.

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

JE is responisble for twisting my brain in so many new directions, I don't think it can ever be undone again. =(

This fix it might take a bit of explaining, but hardly more than the Doctors switching bodies theory, I think. Very interesting.

But I have to admit now, I'm rather at a loss for hope at the moment. There doesn't seem to be any great happiness to build up to at this point, unless something happens at Ten's real regeneration and he somehow... un-meta-crisis, or he needs to merge with other Ten in order to properly regenerate at last.. or something. I just don't know anymore. I think the pony has skipped town.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Awww! I am sorry you have lost faith in the pony! To tell the truth, I am losing my passion for Doctor Who more and more each day. I'm not thrilled with anything I'm hearing for the future of the show...the new producer, the new Doctor or the companions. I firmly believe, as I have often stated, that the only future for this show is a happy for her lifetime scenario for Rose and Ten.

My feeling is that the bloom will drop right off the show as soon as people realize that all we are going to be getting from now until the show is cancelled is the same old story with, let's face it, the second string of writers and actors presenting it. I don't mean to diss Moffat and Matt...I'm sure they will be adequate to the needs of the show...but the limits of the show are being laid down by RTD...and well...the show is currently limited by the idea that the Doctor simply cannot change even for the best of reasons. That's pretty well set in stone because there is no way that Moffat will be revisiting the idea of epic romance...and any attempt to copy the Rose/Ten dynamic will be seen as a sad copy of that dynamic...so they are stuck.

If on the other hand...RTD does show that they Doctor can do anything...including make the choice to stop for a bit and live out a lifetime somewhere...then he is saying that the character hasn't been limited, yet...and that opens up fresh vistas for a new team. I know that it is possible most people won't see this...because it's not really obvious to an audience why they leave a show behind...but this is the reason why...because the possible scenarios before a character become too limited by the canon choices that character makes.

Rae

[pathnotfollowed.livejournal.com]

Ohh Rae, you have a weird and wonderful mind lady!! I like this idea though. I like it very much.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I sort of liked it myself. It was a good way to start the day.

Rae

[catyuy.livejournal.com]

I like the theory in shinyopals fic.
Where part Human Doctor is actually the 14th Doctor, who was pulled into that moment upon his 13th's bodies death.
That way he is the real Doctor.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

That certainly is a lovely way of looking at it if we are stuck with this ending forever in canon. I simply object to RTD saying that he knows the ending is wrong and out of character but that there is no way to fix it without a "huge rewrite"...when, in fact, I can think of several ways of fixing it with or without a cameo from Billie. Though, I would obviously opt FOR a cameo from Billie.

It makes me grind my teeth together when non-writers feed me some hopeless claptrap about how impossible it all is from this point...because it is completely canon for the Doctor and Rose to spend some off screen time together and then for the Doctor to go back to his world saving ways. He is, after all, going to outlive Rose and any offspring they produce...assuming they can produce offspring...personally...I think RTD sent Human Ten there for the offspring potential...it gives the show plausible denial on the asexual question. My hope is that he sees you can still have that potential for asexual offspring with the Real Doctor.

Rae

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

I suppose that could work. My favorite solution, though, was a switcheroo between Ten and Ten2. I can't remember what fic it's from (and I'm too lazy to look it up), but they find a way to fix Donna, Ten gives Ten2 his regenerations/ability to regenerate, Ten2 and Donna come back to our universe to carry on traveling the stars, saving planets, etc., while Ten lives out a regular human life with Rose. I really loved that solution. It's elegant, everybody gets what they want, it's happy...love it!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...I'm not sure about the fic...but that was my original solution from way back when...based simply on my Old School belief that there is no way that you could do what Ten did with his regeneration. And, btw, that idea was actually placed into RTD's hands...by a buddy of mine...so...who knows...

We do know that he did read the most important part of the idea though...because I had it on the outside of the letter and my friend saw him read it...it said...Two Words: Switch Doctors!

Not that I believe I am the only one who thought of that...I still hold out hope that RTD already thought of it...before getting my note...because it would occur to almost any Old School person that if the Master got a new body...the Doctor could get a new body.

Rae

It was me! Well, Rae and me.

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

But it wasn't a fic. It was just an explanation on Rae's journal through Humperdinck in one of our long comment strings, where we fleshed out the mechanics and justification of making it happen using central ideas from New Who.

The short version is using fob watches - to store the Time Lord consciousness out of Donna's head so she lives, and to swap consciousnesses between the two Doctors. It's the Doctor we've ended up with that has the problem outliving Rose, so for him to get the ageing body by swapping minds is ideal. We the audience then get the Doctor's regenerative body with a new mind, one that cares about Donna enough to respect her wishes, and has enthusiasm about exploring the universe as a new species rather than a Time War sole survivor.

I also carried the letter to RTD in person last October, and he seemed genuinely interested in reading it. A lot of the videos of the book signing he's politely and gushingly taking gifts and adding them to the ever growing pile. With mine, he stopped and looked at it profoundly, like it was just him and the letter in the world. When he came back to reality, he said he'd read it later before securing it in his briefcase, and even ignored the bouncer to pose for photos with me. I like to think I made a good impression. :)

Lisa

I like to think you made a good impression, too

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I never get tired of hearing about that moment...it makes me feel hopeful.

Sometimes when I am getting worked up about things as they currently stand on the show...I feel like I'm being disloyal to you and to RTD. I feel like I should have more faith in his ability to see what went wrong and to fix it. His book was a revelation to me because he really did get it and admit that he'd done wrong.

Actually, at this point, my frustration is really with my fellow fans...who just sort of gave up when the story didn't mesh with their vision. They just automatically assume that no television show can get it right. And they let it all wash over them. And I know that there has only been Farscape on the cult TV arc that truly allowed character development...but talking to most people about why character development is key is like talking to a fern about fertilizer. The fern is going to respond to the fertilizer but it isn't going to understand biochemistry no matter how often I explain it.

This is not to say that I'm being arrogant about this...well...okay, I am being arrogant as I said "one person in the universe besides me who gets it"...above...but I know that there are several people who DO get what I mean...you and Cat and others, I'm sure...so I should have said one person who gets to actually produce television shows...and gets the need to develop character.

TV writers and producers seem to lose touch with the real power of storytelling as they get further emeshed in churning out product. I suppose that is because so few people actually make it big in media...and there is so much more to the business than good storytelling instincts. It is easy for me, sitting here at home, to look at the overall arc of various shows and pinpoint the exact place where they go wrong...but it is probably much harder to do it from the isolation of the writer's room.

RTD is a true genius. He knows what he's doing. What I hope that he is also honest with himself and strong enough to fix what he's done wrong. He needs to salvage the Doctor's personal honor before he leaves, because only that will secure that the show has a chance with Moffat and Matt. The Doctor can't lecture other people or go around moping if he's nothing but an emotional coward himself.

Rae

I fear the lessening commitment

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

I get lacklustre with the show since Journey's End. I don't think it's the global recession, otherwise the film Slumdog Millionaire wouldn't be showered with awards for being optimistic in poverty. In fandom after season three and how poor that ending was, the lull between seasons was filled with considered fic (as opposed to 'reactionary') about how things could have gone better. This time there is an... apathy. People are giving up. Something feels fundamentally wrong.

But there is something fundamentally wrong. The season three finale was a poorly executed plot, but the Doctor inspired hope, and he and Martha had different paths to evolve along. The season four finale sees the Doctor curtail any growth. No-one wants to watch a supposed hero who, when presented with something he's always wanted, walks away onto a path of perpetual misery. One of the worst things about it is that he chose this path willingly (unlike Pompeii), and who wants to stick around with people that do that?

Maybe fans think, as RTD is leaving in four episodes, he will be loosening his thoughts and commitment to the show. I'm tempted to write to him again. This time I'd express my concerns about the show's future and the Doctor's character. As a writer without deadlines, it's easy for me to say that story integrity is key to me. People may not like to read all of my stories, but I know in my heart and on historical record I remained true to the narrative. RTD created this love story between the Doctor and Rose spanning four seasons, effectively his whole tenure as head writer, when a lot of older fans scowled at the concept. He should do his major arc justice before leaving. I wonder if he needs to see that in writing from fans as encouragement.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to write again

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Just as encouragement. To me, outside of my losing respect for the Doctor as a character, it is sad to see a writer simply do something that he knows is the wrong thing to do. To me, if RTD doesn't give Rose and Ten a happy for her lifetime ending it will diminish everything RTD wrote and did. And it is hard to explain to people that it isn't just because I like Rose...that's not the reason at all. Liking Rose, to my mind, has nothing at all to do with it.

The Doctor loves Rose. That much is apparent even in The Next Doctor.

And it continues to be apparent in the fact that he is refusing to take on a permanent companion for the four specials. Yes, there is a meta practicality at work there...RTD doesn't want to write another companion. But within the life of the character...the Doctor has clearly expressed why he is not taking on a permanent companion...and it is all about ROSE TYLER.

Okay, you could say that what he did to Donna Noble broke his heart, too. But Donna's heartbreak is all tied up in what happened to Rose...because it was about creating this false Doctor...and Rose is the one the Doctor was happiest with, despite everything people say, Rose is the one he would run to embrace. The JE ending simply doesn't do justice to the scope and majesty of RTD's 4 year story. People are disappointed for a good reason, as you say. And I will be deeply disappointed in RTD if he doesn't correct this error and give the Doctor the life he's been pining for these 5 years (and some might say for 950 years).

Rae

Re: I fear the lessening commitment

[pncwho.livejournal.com]

This time there is an... apathy. People are giving up. Something feels fundamentally wrong....The season four finale sees the Doctor curtail any growth. No-one wants to watch a supposed hero who, when presented with something he's always wanted, walks away onto a path of perpetual misery. One of the worst things about it is that he chose this path willingly (unlike Pompeii), and who wants to stick around with people that do that?

This is the problem in a nutshell. The Doctor has just given up, and deliberately chosen a life of misery. And that upsets people, and understandably so. The Doctor is reunited with the love of his life, and he dumps her like a sack of garbage?! This whole ending was out-of-character, unnecessarily depressing and just plain wrong.

Re: It was me! Well, Rae and me.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

That fic sounds like the one I wrote - "The Best Laid Plans".

And that makes perfect sense...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...as we have quite similar outlooks on the overall storyline. As I said...it could well be a fic. And I did think of Best Laid Plans, but I wasn't certain enough to suggest it.

I don't get out much in fic-land...so I would almost always think of you or Chicklit. :grin:

Rae

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

You always have the best ideas. Now if only RTD would pay attention.

edited to correct initials. ;-)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

The things is...I know...and his book proved...that RTD is smart enough to figure this all out on his own. I only question his motivation. Has he simply given up on the storyline and moved on because the fans seem content enough with the half-assed explanation they had in JE? I don't know. I hope that he has the chops...the simple storyteller's integrity to do the best possible thing by his iconic character. This means that the Doctor is not a coward...not afraid of love...and is able to "do anything." You can't say he is at this point...because you can't say..."Here is a character who can save the day and do the impossible...but, hold on, no...no...he can't be with the woman he loves...not that, no!" You totally give up character when you have your hero make a cowardly choice like Ten makes at the end of Journey's End.

Rae

[onlyoot.livejournal.com]

Do you belive that the whole thing will be fixed in this year before Moffat and a new doc takes over?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Do I believe it will?

Hmmm!

It should be fixed this year, yes! Fixed and finished! Yes!

But asking me if I believe it will be fixed is like asking me if there is one person in the universe that truly gets why shows fail (other than me). RTD is sort of my fuzzy, hulking, Welsh hero...and he truly affirmed my faith in him with his book. I mean...he's the only producer/director I know of who actually, publically admitted that he screwed up...and had the right reason besides.

Seriously, I have called the death of tv shows since I was about 19...and I'm always right about them going down. This is because I have this ability to spin off tales from any point in a story...and I can tell when the tales become limited by what's happened. Most audience members simply assume that writing is a load of making stuff up and so anything is possible...not being aware of the fact that if presented with the impossible they subconsciously balk.

Put another way...audiences should be listened to about broad things like which character or couple they fancy...but not about details like...Can the Doctor have children? Or spend a lifetime with Rose and still be the Doctor later? Writers know how to make things work in the character reality...and once you create character reality you can't just throw it over and expect to retain your audience. Currently, RTD is simply blowing smoke by saying "the Doctor is a great character because he can do absolutely anything." Because we, the audience, were just asked to assume that he CAN'T stay with Rose for her lifetime while also being asked to assume that he wants to stay with her and she wants to stay with him.

So...we have essentially been asked to swallow a huge character inconsistency...and given a very short drink of water to manage it...that somehow this is all better for the universe and Rose and/or that the Doctor will get over his "nothing to live for" feelings some day.

So...yeah...the question of if I believe it will happen...

I'm going to say YES...I still believe RTD will give Ten and Rose a happy for her lifetime ending before the last episode. But I only believe that because I want RTD to be the writer I think he is...and not someone who sweeps it all under the rug. The far easier option is to sweep it all under the rug and hope that people forget that the Doctor can't do anything after Moffat takes over.

People will not forget...and the show will die as it loses credibility...and not one analyst will blame the right thing...they will all blame Matt and Moffat.

Rae

I should say...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...before the regneration into Matt Smith. Probably it will be in the last episode...what people don't think of is that it need not be all about the happy ending...or a lot of filming with Billie. All we need is ten minutes...pop over to the other universe...live a lifetime...home in time for tea and/or regeneration.

Rae
knowing there are some lame and unsatisfying scenarios where Ten 2 downloads his life experiences to Ten during the regeneration...or where we find that Ten 2 and Rose have sent a child/grandchild to Ten to keep him company or something in the final episode...but I hope we just fix the problem and we can do that with a Master episode, it strikes me, very easily.

If the conclusion of Journey's End was a cheap TV drama, it would go like this:

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

A global aid relief Doctor had morals. He understood that quality of life was important and that everything died. He stumbled across the love of his life, Rose, during one of his drop zones. She volunteered for the programme, becoming his apprentice on paper but his lover and travel companion in reality. He liked the company; his job meant he couldn't settle down, much as he would like to. During a particularly large war outbreak, Rose and the Doctor become separated on different sides of the territorial fence. They know any attempt to pass through this fence will threaten the peace of the world.

Time passed, and one faction built an army to terrorise the world. They poured out of their borders with destructive intent, and Rose went with them, to protect civilians and find her Doctor. Rose carried a gun because it helped her to survive. When Rose and the Doctor were reunited, it turned out that he had a new apprentice, Donna, and an identical twin that had followed him around, memorising everything the Doctor ever did. His twin had great enthusiasm for the aid cause, compared to the Doctor's weariness. The Doctor abhorred his twins' attitude to restoring peace, regardless that it worked quicker and with less casualties. His twin also seemed to understand Donna better.

The territorial boundaries become more of a detaining prison. The Doctor marched Rose down the wedding aisle with the twin she'd only just met, in the place she'd escaped from to be with him, and injected his current apprentice Donna with chemicals to give her Alzeimer's Disease, before continuing to work alone.

... I'm sure even mindless TV watchers would have a wtf moment at this.

Yeppers

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

It just doesn't make narrative sense. And it would have been easy for RTD to have had it make some narrative sense by simply having the Doctor focus on saving the world and pretty much ignore Rose while having the twin do all of the fun running to greet Rose with open arms and looking forward to starting a life with her again stuff. RTD tried to have it both ways and have the Doctor still quite obviously in love with Rose...and then giving her up for a completely ridiculous reason...it simply doesn't resonate with the audience.

And what we find is that the audience, very quietly on their own, makes up a good reason for the behavior...and the fallout for this appears in fanfiction. But what people don't realize is that the fanfiction isn't an answer for most of the audience...most of the audience simply feels let down and has no reason why they feel this way. So, they wander away thinking..."Hmmm! This show isn't as satisfying as it once was...I guess I don't like Moffat...or Matt Smith..." What they really don't like is the fact that no matter what happens to the Doctor...he's never going to really live down this moment of abject cowardice and character devolution. It will be there...mocking him every time he tells people they have to live their own lives to the fullest.

Rae

Re: Yeppers

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

What they really don't like is the fact that no matter what happens to the Doctor...he's never going to really live down this moment of abject cowardice and character devolution. It will be there...mocking him every time he tells people they have to live their own lives to the fullest.

A-FREAKIN-MEN, sister. Holy crap, I really wanted to throttle him in The Next Doctor when he talked about companions leaving him behind and breaking his widdle heart(s). I mean really THROTTLE him. Such a hypocrite... I've never been this mad at the Doctor before. And that doesn't bode well for the future, does it?

Nope...it does not...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I had an identical reaction to a new book coming out that features Martha and Ten. In the description of the book it says that the Doctor and Martha land on a planet where people have gotten rid of their emotions so they can avoid having heartbreak and wars and such...the actual book description says that this won't sit well with the Doctor as he believes in living life to the fullest.

Oh...REALLY? Does he indeed? Well that's not canon! I was so furious I gave one of those bitter laughs and I really felt my first true break with the show...because I can't swallow that sort of holier than thou attitude from a character that has proven so untrue not only to himself but to the people most loyal to him...Rose and Donna.

Pshaw!

Rae

Re: Nope...it does not...

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Well said. People can handle tragedy, but what really kills stories is tragedy that nobody learns from. Tragedy that happens because they're stuck in a groove and they go on to repeat the same mistakes ad infinitum. Stories are about development. If they go nowhere, why tell them?

Oh, and you know what?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I was prompted to cruise through my Humperdinck posts last night and I found a reference to what the show seems to be doing...companion hopping. I said that the path the Doctor is currently on leads to him never being able to have a companion... And this is the path they appear to be taking for the specials.

Suffering needlessly...I suppose in the "mistaken" belief that Rose is better off with 10.2. I can just about justify that belief for the Doctor, given what he saw happening to his "children" and what Davros said about them both. But...like RTD...I can't see Rose settling for a substitute, no matter how shaggable said man is.

Rae

Re: Nope...it does not...

[pncwho.livejournal.com]

People can handle tragedy, but what really kills stories is tragedy that nobody learns from. Tragedy that happens because they're stuck in a groove and they go on to repeat the same mistakes ad infinitum. Stories are about development. If they go nowhere, why tell them?

Exactly. The point of a story, any decent story, is to show how a person learns and grows from his or her trials and tribulations. Heck, life itself is growth and change. Without growth and change, there is only stagnation.

[nyaaaaaauuuuuuu.livejournal.com]

Because we, the audience, were just asked to assume that he CAN'T stay with Rose for her lifetime while also being asked to assume that he wants to stay with her and she wants to stay with him.

Well, not just that - we're being asked to assume that he CAN stay with Rose - he could keep Human!Ten and her with him - but that he would CHOOSE not to, even when we are also supposed to assume he and she truly want to be together.

I think I remember reading somewhere that RTD said, as they drew nearer to filming JE, that he just, ironically, perhaps, ran out of time. I think it's a scale problem, really: maybe you can make last minute changes to one episode, but when it's the concluding episode in which changing the plot would require going back and changing previous episodes, or slashing a lot of scenes in order to insert these new ones...and they're already filming? I can see why he would just plow straight ahead and try to finish things rather than stop, rethink, and redo (sorta like being on a runaway train...you COULD stop it, but you might need some Superman-esque help). Not that I particularly like the way things end up, at all, but I sort of understand how they got to be that way.

Doesn't make me any less disillusioned with the show (and the Christmas special didn't really help)...

Bah. I know I'll end up watching the specials, and probably the Moffatt stuff, too, but I think I'm more invested in the fandom at this point than the actual show. And that is not because of Moffatt or Matt Smith but because watching the end of S4 overall made me feel like I was trying to hold water in my hands and it just kept slipping through my fingers.

So maybe I'll find time to go watch all that Classic Who that I said I would, if I can find it.. :)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Right! But experience has taught me that you probably will not continue. Sure, right now you believe you will (and here I don't just mean YOU...but all of the people who have the same level of commitment that you are expressing to me...I mean, YOU might continue...but in the long run...on average)...but mostly people WON'T really continue watching.

I am speaking from a global perspective. The fandom once it has no hope...dies. And the parameters of the show as it now stands...hopeless. This is not about Rose...as I've said. It's about the choice that was made. That choice said that the Doctor could not settle down with anyone...even someone he truly loved and even if he wanted to have that life...he could not have it. That is a global stand for the character. What all of the Rose fans...and Rose haters...didn't realize is that no matter what your feelings were about Rose...she was defining the character of the Doctor.

If he had grown beyond her in the two years she was gone...then it might have been possible to believe that it was Rose who was some how unworthy (or that the Doctor was just too magnificent for ordinary emotions). But that is NOT what happened. Instead, right up to the moment they part...you see only that the Doctor loves Rose Tyler and wants desperately to be with her. Yes, I suppose I can see what you say about the mechanics of running a huge show. But we can't ask the audience to understand about that...not really.

Or rather...that IS what we say...that is what leads to a sort of disillusion with the entire process of fandom participation. The mechanics of the medium make it unlikely that you will ever find any sort of fulfillment from the canon source. This means that the only source of fulfillment is fanfiction, as you go on to suggest. So, we are saying that creative source is unable to deliver on the promise of their beginnings. And I'm not sure that I am ready to accept that premise. Though RTD certainly gets me closer to that point than any other producer ever has. Because I can't say that RTD simply doesn't get it. He does get it. What we are saying here is that television simply cannot deliver a fulfilling experience for an audience by it's very nature. And then...in the words of so many of my disillusioned friends, the question becomes...why bother? Why bother watching a show that will disappoint you in the end? Maybe that's why people of a certain age no longer watch TV. Maybe they have simply learned through repetition that no amount of diligence on the part of the writing team will allow a satisfactory arc to play out to a truly resonate conclusion.

Rae
thinking deep thoughts...but really...wishing for all of that that RTD manages to do what he is fully capable of doing...conclude his Rose/Ten story on a resonate note.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

That scenario would make a great fic. I do, however, share the general disillusionment with the show as a whole and the sense that it's time to move on. I think the only thing that could hook me back in, apart from a JE-fixit, would be if the Timelords turned up again. It's the one major place they haven't gone.

Meanwhile, I've followed Tennant to Stratford, as it were. As we sat in a circle debating the statement "Shakespeare was a man of the theatre", and discussing his life as a jobbing writer surrounded by deadlines and compromises, I found myself reflecting on "The Writer's Tale" more and more, and wondering whether there were any points where the Bard would say, RTD-like, "I always wanted to do it this way, but..."

It's also interesting to reflect on how comfortable subsequent generations were with the concept of doing a major rewrite whenever they found the original play out of tune with their aesthetic - Nahum Tate's happy ending to "Lear", for example.

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Yes, but remember Jackie & Mickey. They followed Rose. So they know it's THEIR Rose. The real and only Rose.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

So...what you are saying is that there can be 2 Roses...but not 2 Mickeys and 2 Jackies? Aren't there 2 Petes?

What I am saying is that everyone's life went on that path where extra Rose came from...so, of course, there would be a Jackie and a Mickey there...and a Pete and Tony...but that said path could be redirected and still have it's own alternative universe. That is how alternative universe's work.

Rae

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Oooohhhh! You might be right!
*grins!
Have you read "A sky without zeppelins"? It's got Ten II and... Alt!Rose!!!!

[ladyofgallifrey.livejournal.com]

You have renewed my hope in the pony - not that I ever really gave up since I live in the world of Denial and AU-land.

I almost had a similar idea a few days back, but it was more to do with the Rose we see being a "future" Rose. I couldn't come up with a good explanation as to why she wouldn't have explained this. There's the whole Jackie problem too.

Looking forward to more of "Gum"!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Hey, can you hop on AIM for a minute?