Vizzini: INCONCEIVABLE

[rabid1st]

Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

This one is about the I.B.M.*. Spoilers for Doctor Who S4 all the way to the finale.

*Instantaneous Biological Metacrisis a.k.a. Doctor Ex Machina

Only is it? Was it? Did you really...truly need an extra Doctor in this episode to resolve our plot lines? Did we need 10.2 running out with his gun only to be shot down and caged...or throwing the switch so the completely unnecessary Daleks were destroyed? Couldn't the Doctor have pushed his regeneration juice off into the hand and NOT had another Doctor? Couldn't the energy have gone directly into Donna to ruin her for further time travel? Couldn't Donna have thrown the switch on those Daleks? But wait...then we wouldn't be able to get rid of Rose...okay...

So...we were really just making another Doctor so we can leave him with Rose so she will stop trying to knock down the barriers between the dimensions? But wasn't it RTD that made Rose the sort of person who knocks down dimensional walls? If she was trapped...she was trapped...if she was not...how is this DonnaDoctor supposed to stop her? Get her pregnant so she has to stay home...or is she just going to be so busy healing him that she decides to give up her other interests? OR is it just that she's got a Doctor now...so she is content to stop knocking down dimensional barriers?

And what about that whole idea of the heartbeat through time and space. Donna keeps hearing the heartbeat. 10.2 says, "Oh, that was me, my single heart, because I'm a very complicated event in time and space. Must have rippled back, converging on you."

Yes...well...he certainly is quite complicated. But Donna has a point...why here? So, he links it to all the coincidence with Donna...and then says that the whole pattern isn't complete, yet. Caan tells us...that while he arranged for Donna and the Doctor to meet by pulling some time strings...all he did was accelerate the process. It wasn't him that caused the whole screwy breakdown in time and space that lead to Donna being the center of everything. So...then...we were ALWAYS going to get two Doctors. Only it could have been worse...as 10.2 tells Donna. He grew out of her...still...it could have been worse?

Maybe he would have grown out of someone else...something else.

10.2 says he's unique...never been another like him...but he has a handy NAME for what has happened...Instantaneous Biological Metacrisis. And we learn later that there has never been one with a human before...because "there can't be." So...there HAS been one before? Just not with a human. And 10.2 came into being either in a unique way...they don't lop off parts and grow new Time Lords. But that doesn't mean that something like this hasn't happened before...just not with a handy spare hand. Nor with a human host.

10.2 is this amazing, unique, never before been anything like him in the universe creation. And RTD doesn't want to do anything with him but part him in some backwater dimension? And he is manipulated into existence by a Dalek who has seen all of time and space...and the reason we must assume this happened is so the Daleks can be wiped out once and for all. Caan has seen that they are evil and must be stopped...the prophecy must be fulfilled.

Okay...then good on 10.2. He wipes out the Daleks. But still...that doesn't work...because Caan brought Davros back to make the Daleks. It seems far more likely that the DALEKS were instrumental in making 10.2 than he was instrumental in stopping them. Why would Dalek Caan bring Davros back if he saw that the Daleks were evil...and then have to accelerate the process of making the second Doctor from Donna in order to stop what he himself started?

Isn't it far more likely that making 10.2 is what all of this has been about? Rather than a by-product of events in the finale...10.2 is the reason for the finale. He seems to me to be what the season was all about. The Ood spoke of him. There were all those references to cloning and biological transformation. And all of it was a way to get Rose a lifemate? I love Rose and I really believe the Doctor should go to her...but it seems to me that 10.2 might be a little more important than we realize at this moment. If all the time lines ran to Donna...because Donna was going to bring this being into his own...then shouldn't his existence mean something?

Again...we have a story that doesn't really fit together...it only holds up if we assume the writer of Doomsday was unhappy with Doomsday and instead of simply correcting it by having there be a alternative Universe Doctor...to make Rose happy...or saying she found someone to love there...or something...he decided to launch a full, elaborate season of teases and close misses of our lovers...so that he could separate them forever...by creating a one of a kind being, foreshadowed by some really odd moments in the season...things like the Ood song...and wasps breeding with humans.

Comments

[thisficklemob.livejournal.com]

Huh. Another angle, this time about the sexbot supposed replacement Doctor for Rose. You have very thinking thoughts, my friend.

It does seem a little odd that he be created, with all this context, just for Rose. On the other hand, you could argue that it's sensible that 10.2 seems this way for 10. A version of himself that can live a mortal life with Rose... he may well think she's special enough to deserve someone that special. (And not register that it may not be what he wants.)

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Good points, as usual. If the creation of 10.2 made all these ripples through time and space, then why didn't Bad Wolf and Rose being filled with the Time Vortex?

The mantra of 10.2 right now would appear to be "The times are out of joint. Oh, cursed spite, that ever I was born to set them right!"

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...it does work if we believe that Rose and 10.2 are as important as the Doctor. Then, we could say that 10.2 was created so that the Doctor and Rose could interbreed. This is what the majority of the fandom IS saying. That Rose and her Bad Wolf self...and 10.2 and his Donna side...are going to make TimeLord/Human babies...to send to 10. And I can see RTD doing that. They really wouldn't need a bit of TARDIS coral...in fact, that would lead to some confusion about how they got the TARDIS to work in Rose's world. They could make their own time and dimension ships though.

Then, for next Christmas...we have 10.2/Rose descendents bursting through on him...probably led by River Song. And there you go.

I only still feel sorry for 10...because I would still believe that he's never going to really have anyone. But it would get him some family connections. And those family connections would have ties to humanity.

Rae

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Remember what Davros said. Caan saw BOTH the Doctor and Rose.
Maybe Ten II was indeed created as Rose's lifemate... So they could get married and have children... And those children could be the new Time Lords.
Bad Wolf!Rose said "I give life". She was talking about Jack... but maybe there was more about it...
Ten II is still half Time Lord and Rose is still the Bad wolf (Turn Left was a huge clue about it), so, maybe their children won't be human... but "new" Time Lords.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Actually...that is the only way I see this working...that RTD uses the next four episodes to show that the Doctor is not alone. So...we have something hopeful at Christmas...then we bring back Jenny...then we bring back the children of Rose and 10.2. And the Doctor can go off having fun adventures again.

So it is a round about way for 10 to not be alone anymore.

But I can't get over the Davros saying 10 and Rose had to be there. Not 10.2 and Rose. And there is no rushing forward of 10.2 to cuddle Rose or anything. So...even if that IS what the solution to all this is...I find it borders on women are cattle. And that upsets me.

Rae

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

it borders on women are cattle.

I see that anyway in this story, especially with Donna's demise. It says that the man you want to spend the rest of your life with (husband) can dictate (no choice) that you should be domestic (housewife with no equality or prospects), while said man does what he wants. I cringe at how Jackie seems positively supportive of her daughter compared to Francine and Sylvia, and in these views we're supposed to be on the Doctor's side. But it's Portrait of a Lady, where it sucks being a woman in Victorian England: You run from your controlling mother into the arms of a man from abroad who treats you no better.

I think Davros only had 10 and Rose there because that's all he'd listened to from Caan's prophecy, and he'd kind of ignored the three-fold comment. And I don't think we see Brown or Blue cuddle Rose once they see each other.

But he does...Brown does cuddle Rose

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And I don't think we see Brown or Blue cuddle Rose once they see each other.

In the scene with the hugs...he does very much what Donna does with Sarah Jane and Jack...he breaks into a hug with Rose and Martha...tugging Martha's arm free to insinuate himself. Also, when Sarah Jane goes over to the monitor...the bit where 10.2 is smiling...yeah...he smiles at Sarah Jane. And he smiles at Donna and seems QUITE content with the humans and 10 working together.

But in the scenes with Blue and Brown...Rose and Brown are always connecting. The only time we see Rose connect to Blue is when Brown is outside. And in that shot, Rose has her arms crossed...so she's not really warming up. But in the monitor shot...Rose leans over into Brown and he leans into her...and they have that moment I screencapped. It would have been so easy to have had a shot of Rose and Blue watching Brown. Also...Blue leaves Rose's side...twice...once to circle over to Donna and again to hug Sarah Jane.

I do think that given Eccleston back...Rose might have rushed toward him as he walked away...maybe...in TCI. But in TCI they used a few simple scenes...to show the bond between the Doctor and Rose still existed. And they don't really do that in this ending. It would have been easy to have showed us that Rose and 10.2 were just as much a part of one another as Rose and 10 are...but that's not the choice they decided to make.

I think the Doctor did everything wrong here...he left Rose...something he once said he would never do...he took away the most important thing in Donna's life...he told Jack he couldn't time travel. And why can't Jack time travel...when all the other time agents can? Is it because Jack is immortal? I mean...he left Jack in the 51st century and Jack got back to CARDIFF and the rift. Then there is no mention at all to Rose about her nature...or Jack's...which is understandable in the circumstances...but still...scene of Jack and Rose catching up? Nope!

Rae

This group hug...?

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I'm fed up rewatching the end of this episode and splitting hairs! I worry like sensiblecat about losing friends and being banned from communities for saying things. But in the above cap, I don't see Brown move Martha's arm. I see him put his arms around both of them, and I see Rose move her arm out of the way to let him in. But it's Rose that's freed from it, as we see her hug Jackie, yet we don't see Brown or Martha hug anyone after in the TARDIS.

I do see a marked change in Brown's behaviour towards Rose once he sees Blue. To me at the moment, Brown does't treat anyone with more special-ness than anyone else when on the TARDIS. Both Rose and SJS lean toward Brown when they look at the monitor in the same amount, and Brown looks as happy that Gwen is a spatial double as seeing K9 again. Rose keeps looking at the monitor, and only looks at Brown twice - once for the Gwen thing and once for the 'oh pants, basecode takes time.' And that's it. A marked difference in their intimacy once Blue, Brown and Rose see each other. The connections between Brown and Rose start to falter.

It would have been so easy to have had a shot of Rose and Blue watching Brown.

Would it? I assume you mean on the TARDIS, because they do both look at him on the beach. But it is very much Brown's TARDIS: TARDIS, Time Lord, My Rules, so he declares in Pompeii.

In TCI, Rose had a whole episode to get used to the idea that Ten was the Doctor and he couldn't go back. In JE, she gets three minutes. And yet, her hand wraps around Blue's instinctively; it's not a loose hold. I don't recall offhand what the hand hold was like in the 2005 CIN special. Despite an extra 20 minutes, this episode would have benefitted from more time.

But I do still agree with you that Brown's behaviour and decisions are very ... skewed, and I hope it's just a knee jerk to his soul being revealed. As for the Jack and Rose catch up, that's bad writing as it stands. It's a bit like Moffat's writing: overlooking continuity to focus on a brilliant idea. In this case, pretty boy in the blue suit. But hopefully in the specials, Jack will help get Rose's descendants over here and they can catch up. But knowing RTD, it will be a throwaway line that Blue told her 'everything' because Rose had asked.

Lisa
thinking discussing semantics over Donna's 'mind rape' seems much less complicated

I suppose for me it is all body language

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And I don't see it between 10.2 and Rose. I still see it between Rose and 10. But sure...whatever...I still love you and you don't need to watch the end again for me. I'm a bit sick of it myself. It is either sloppily staged and written and stands...or it means something...and only Christmas will tell us.

I know that I'm not going on with a show about this guy...this lonely God guy. I don't care if he is rewarded for his behavior or not...I can't really buy into it. So, if that's really what this all says...well...lots of people will be satisfied with it until it is all explained for them...or they get bored and don't know why.

I am capable of knowing why I will be bored with this...already...because I can tell that this is not going anywhere interesting. The Doctor remains unchanged...his companions have limited impact on him...even if he does pay it lipservice at Christmas...still...we see what sort of impact they really have. And we see that there is really nowhere for the Doctor to go...he's not going to change...he has limited growth potential...except to become more of a lonely God...until one day he dies like The Face of Boe...with a nun by his side.

My brother isn't a Doctor Who fan...but it was interesting...when I tried to tell him about this...I didn't get very far when he said..."That sounds really boring. Isn't there something they haven't showed you already?" He started telling me how the show had to change into something else...and I couldn't get a word in edgewise for a bit while he told me we needed to take the Doctor back to a time before he was a time lord...or see how the Time Lords came into being...or let him change in some fundamental way.

Now...I hadn't sold him on any of this...I was just setting up the whole concept of the Doctor as this figure that wanders the stars picking up people. My brother is an agnostic and he saw nothing wrong with what was done to Donna or Rose or 10.2...he only saw something wrong with the Doctor.

Rae

I still love you, too :) in a platonic sense, of course

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

And this ending reminds me of the Girl in the Fireplace. Very much what the hell is that doing here reaction. And even in that episode, we had one Ten/Rose hug, and the rest of his body language was... wrong, somehow less with Rose.

RTD has given fandom an ending that niggles a lot on all sides, so we will keep guessing and thinking and plotting until Christmas. He's got us interested in the show until it screens. So he knows what works for short term franchise at the very least. But I worry that RTD's default is emo and angst. Even though I'm faithful to shows, like the X-Files, I doubt I'll stick with Tennant's run if things stay as the are. I agree with your brother; the Doctor needs to change. Valeyard to be replaced or kids so he's not alone, something's got to give.

I mean...yes...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

On the what the hell is this doing here front...we have all of those times that the Doctor told Rose he would never leave her behind...of course, that could have just been wishful thinking...certainly he tries to give her this normal life in Doomsday. But again...there he is facing a situation where he could be pulled into hell. Here he is already in Hell, it seems. So getting Rose away from him isn't THAT out of character.

But Martha confirms for us...in this very episode...that it is "OMG! He found you." That the Doctor is the one who can't leave her behind...and here...he says she HAS to stay for his other self. It is a cost...a sacrifice they are both making...and Rose is unsure of it. And we are made to feel unsure of it, too...because what 10.2 does seems right...and what 10 does next...seems wrong.

Ten does say that "That Donna is dead"...the one who knew him and was special...so I suppose we could consider that our 1 must die. Again...I think we have to wait for Christmas to see if this truly is the Journey's End.

Rae

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

If there is no other purpose to Blue, then it should have just been Donna that became 11, including being with Rose. Judging Donna's rapid demise, any children from Blue/Rose probably need to involve a lab anyway. The wasp thing was a natural at shape changing, but the Doctor screamed his lungs out for his transformation into a human.

The weird thing is, it seems the TARDIS chose Donna to 'bring life.' (Unless one of the deleted scenes is Ten snapping his fingers...) It's another repeat of the first three seasons: Here, it repeats the end of 1x13 where the TARDIS doors shut Mickey and Jackie out, and like Rose, Donna 'brings life' from cells that really should be dead, through golden light.

Does Caan say the three-fold-man or three-fold-whatever? Because if it's 'man' it could have meant to be Jack. Imagine that. Jack riding in the TARDIS or living a life with Rose. Thankfully, the TARDIS doesn't like Jack.

The Ood said 'your song will end soon.' The 'Doctor' part of Doomsday plays until Donna says she wants to carry on travelling with him. So, what does the Doomsday music tell us here? That companions leave or get taken away from him... same old life, never his choice. That song has ended now; now he's deciding when people should be parted from him. But if it's tied to Rose, the song of Doomsday is about their separation, and yet the Doctor gets to spend the rest of his life with her. It's just not the Doctor we see at the end. But what if the Doctor's song is ... same old life, last of the Time Lords. If Rose insists on destroying reality barriers, she can at least send some doctor-descendants over. Besides, the Doctor said travel between parallels was easy when there was more than one Time Lord. So the Doctor can be at peace that Rose had a fantastic life with him, and Rose gets to believe that with their children the Doctor isn't alone anymore.

Yeah...I think this is the way...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...RTD means for it to work. If Rose insists on destroying reality barriers, she can at least send some doctor-descendants over. Besides, the Doctor said travel between parallels was easy when there was more than one Time Lord. So the Doctor can be at peace that Rose had a fantastic life with him, and Rose gets to believe that with their children the Doctor isn't alone anymore.

Because of the bit of TARDIS coral...but that was totally unnecessary...because probably with 10.2's knowledge they can find some AltUniverse coral to grow their own. Then we have a sky full of TARDIS' for Christmas 2009.

Since Rose's main concern is that the Doctor not be doing this all on his own. She would definitely continue to work on a way to reach him for her entire lifetime. However, in bittersweet RTD style she only manages to create the children and the way for the new race of Time Lords. Jenny then has a chance to find love and breed even more of their kind. And River could be one of those half-made human/TimeLords...so he couldn't tell it was her.

And there you go...solution that fits.

Though it still makes me ache for the Doctor.

Rae

TARDIS' in the sky

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

I assume the coral growing takes time, and knowledge. Jack's over 100 years old and yet his lump of coral is still just that. We never saw the Master set up his escape plan by growing another TARDIS, but that might be arrogance on his part. In the Impossible Planet, the Doctor isn't cheerful when he informs Rose TARDIS' are grown, not built. So it might take several generations of contemporary humans to make a fully grown TARDIS. And Rose demonstrated in Turn Left that she has knowledge of backwards engineering one.

We also might get to see Blue build a sonic screwdriver with red settings, because the Master managed to build a screwdriver mostly from Earth materials. Hell, even Tosh managed to make a sonic device from faulty blueprints.

Re: Yeah...I think this is the way...

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

I don't think I agree that the Doctor hasnt changed. He has. He's sexy, has more character, and flawed. The old one was dry and so flat. He also gets sexually attracted to others like we saw in Girl in the Fireplace and we've seen with Rose. Although, the one thing that isn't changing is the fact that the Doctor is still very celebate. This is quite boring. Everyone else gets laid but the Doctor. He's a good boy and doesn't do that sort of thing. Thats the one thing I think Moffat will change.

What I mean is that he's not going to change

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...his lonely life this way. That there is no way to make this better for him. He is just going to suffer when people leave him.

David is sexy, but I seriously doubt Moffat will be allowed to do any more than he has with reference to the Doctor getting lucky. So...we will know what we already know...that he can have sex with people. The sex will lack any deeper meaning because he can't have a true relationship with anyone.

River in the far future...offers him no real solace as he knows going in how it will all end. He possibly cared enough to share his name with her...but he also knew that she would one day win his complete trust by telling him his name...so...

I can't see Jenny offering him much solace either...even if they have her as the next companion...and then she leaves him to marry or visit e-space or whatever...still...he's fundamentally alone. Rose and 10.2 sending over children...again...he would know that he had a family somewhere...I suppose. But if he could never interact with them on a meaningful level...then his life is still shallow.

And one of the things they noted in GitF is that he has ALWAYS been alone. And this is very true of the Old School...he wasn't part of the Time Lords...he was something new and different. I think School Reunion is a sort of telling episode...there we see that the Doctor has these fears...fear of living on when everyone else has died...the thing that tempts him is the idea that he could keep his companion with him...forever young. He says..."I could save everyone."

To me, this speaks very deeply to his flawed psychology as Ten...and I do believe it is only Ten that is flawed and dark...not Nine. I believe Nine was sad...and lonely...and would wait by the TARDIS for Rose until she came back...even if she made him wait a long time. I believe Nine was battle-weary and full of anger. But I also believe Nine was more emotionally stable than Ten.

I mean...yeah...all we could be doing with 10.2 is creating new family for the Doctor. And then, he could just not be alone anymore. I do think this might satisfy Rose...because her whole being seems to be devoted to Ten not being alone anymore. So if she used his surrogate to produce children and to make a more viable way to get those kids TO Ten...she might be fufilled. Poor 10.2 is rather getting the short end of things...but maybe he really does long for a life with Rose no matter what the appearance of it is.

I just think this isn't the way to go for the character of the Doctor because it means that he will never settle anywhere...so...it doesn't really matter what else happens to him from this point on...he's not stopping. He's not resting. He's going to drive himself to the grave...until all of his cheerful flippancy rings hollow. In the words of Davros...he's the man who keeps running.

And that is so very sad. I mean...all he had to do was stop for a very short time...Rose's lifetime. Stop and rest and then go on...and he'd be healthier. But making these choices...I just can't see him ever stopping...he'll just run and run and run until we all drop away in exhaustion...and the show is cancelled.

Moffat can't change that...because we are defining the character of the Doctor by setting these new rules. Either the Doctor is capable of changing or his character is etched in stone until this version of the show is cancelled. And if this version is as it appears to be here...cancellation is coming very soon. And yeppers...I know people are saying they are okay with it all...but I've seen the fandom say that before...and I have been right about the shows going down every time. Fandom can justify anything...but you still have a dead end story when all is said and done.

Rae

Celibacy

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

Rae will tell you, I'm sure, that I bristle when someone says Ten is celibate. I think Tennant is sexy, and characters find Ten sexy. But I disagree that Ten has an active libido and is 'punishing' himself by abstaining from human-style recreational sex. Some people just aren't interested in social partnersex. I'm one of those people. Are you telling me I'm boring because I have no inherent desire to get laid?

Tennant himself said that the Doctor/Rose dynamic was a love story without the shagging. He did say the Doctor is asexual at one point: In the Radio Times, "[Martha's] much more front foot about the fact she'd noticed the Doctor wearing tight trousers and things, and that disconcerts him rather. He's used to a slightly more asexual outlook!" And an msn interview, "Martha's perhaps a little bit more front foot in saying how she feels to the Doctor which of course freaks him out completely. Him being this ultimate asexual being. He doesn't quite get it when she talks about how he looks in his suit and things like that don't really compute with the Doctor."

I've never heard him say celibate or abstaining from sex. Look how deadpan Ten was with River, a Moffat episode. He had more emotion in touching Donna's node face in the same episode! Also, even in JE, it's Rose that initiates the kiss. Same with Reinette. If he was celibate, he'd back off completely, but he doesn't. Kissing is nice, I know from experience. It isn't sexual by default, people just assume it has to be that way. And it's a shame that we're afraid to touch each other, wary of embracing physicality because people will take it the 'wrong way,' a sexual way.

I don't expect recreational sex with the Doctor. I can get it, and the angst of situations upping the UST, in other sci-fi shows. But I do agree that Moffat writes the Doctor like Bond: A serial womaniser with the ultimate gadget transport. That's not my Doctor.

Lisa

Sorry for the spam, Rae. Someone said the 'c' word ;-)

I have the transcript for the 'coral'

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

It's in the DWM 398.

~~~~~

D1: Tell you what, here you go
--Throws them a chunk of coral - D2 catches it--

D1: This universe is in needs of defending. Chunk of TARDIS. Grow your own.

D2: But that takes thousands of years.

D1: No, because...

Donna: ... if you shatterfry the plasmic shell and modify the dimensional stabiliser to a foldback harmonic of 36.3, you accelerate growth by the power of 59!

D1 & 2: We never thought of that!

Donna: I'm just brilliant!

D1: The Doctor. In the TARDIS. With Rose Tyler. Just as it should be.

Rose: (to D1) But I didn't think... What about you? You gonna be alright?

D1: Oh, I've got madam.

Donna: Human with a Time Lord brain, perfect combination! We can travel the universe forever. Best friends! And equals, just what old skinnyboy needs, an equal!

FX: the TARDIS lamp flares, the box groans.

~~~~~

Wouldn't seeing that have made a difference?

Yeah...and where did you dig this up?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And anyway...it would have all been a lie...because he doesn't have madam with him at all...he kills her.

But there you go...something makes it work a little better. Also, it still seems like Rose is being fobbed off with this grand "normal" life...and not getting what she or HE really needs.

Rae

I dug it up...

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

... in Doctor Who Magazine #398 on page 18. There's a forward by RTD:

"This sequence was cut from JE for the drama's sake," explains RTD. "It survived until the very last edit, until Julie, Phil and I all admitted that it was making the Bad Wolf Bay scene too long and complicated. There's already enough going on, with two Doctors, parallel universes, dimensional retroclosures; the creation of an extra TARDIS overbalanced things and made your mind wander away from the main plot. It felt like an odd little tangent, in the middle of some vital material. Also, despite having written it myself, I always had doubts about making the growing of another TARDIS too easy. Of course, if you want, you can still assume that this dialogue was said, and that Doctor Number Two and Rose are now sailing through the Milky Way together. The scene will be in the Series Four box set deleted scenes, available in November, so you could argue that it did actually happen!"

I want to watch this deleted scene, so I know how Rose says, "But I didn't think..." Fandom at the very least gets plenty of canon-if-you-want material to play with.

Also, on page 46 of DWM#398, Tennant says, "They're different characters, but they've both got to be the Doctor. It's the same character, but it's not. It's a tricky one, because with Rose at the end, you want to feel that she is left with the person she loves, but also that she isn't. It's quite a subtle, ambiguous ending for Rose."

I read that bit from Tennant

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And yes...that is exactly what I got...that 11 was the man she loves but he's not...and I think that the NOT is much stronger than it was from 9 to 10 because I think 11 has a bit of Donna in him. That's what we are told...that he's like Donna. To me, this means Rose is going to have to fall in love with him...and it also means that his thinking might not be quite the same...in fact...we see that it is NOT the same. 11 didn't agree with 10 about the Daleks.

It would be interesting to see both how Rose says her lines and how 10 delivers his. I think that his copy of Mickey's lines...about letting the woman they love go...is telling. Because Mickey still loves Rose even here at the end of JE...Rose is the one who makes the choice to move on FROM Mickey. So 10 is pretty much saying in all the important ways that he still loves Rose. And Rose is left in the ambiguous state...and really...it is interesting how many of her fanbase believe she will NOT be loyal to the man she loves who loves her.

Rae

I really do want to see the scene

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Because it speaks to the nature of the lies being told, too. I mean...there seems to be nothing different in the tone here except with the idea of the Doctor having someone who is his "equal" now...that is a huge slam to all that Rose has done. Again we see that overall stand RTD is taking here that there is no hope that humans will ever reach his lofty height. Again...he's a god and they are his children.

I think the knock to Rose in the idea that she's been completely replaced by Donna...is interesting...and I'd like to see how Rose takes that...on one hand...it is something that might allow Rose to let go of 10...thinking he's fine now with someone else. On the other hand...it is completely not true...and you have to wonder if the Doctor is aware of that...aware that he really is fobbing Rose off here with a story.

I noticed already that it is Donna who gives Rose all the happy explanations of why this is going to work. The Doctor seems to be focusing on how 10.2 is really HIM and needs her...even in this toss of the TARDIS bit...he's setting up the perfect fantasy for Rose. And we only have the hope that it is a fantasy for him, too...one he will dwell on and one day be rewarded for with children.

I, again, think of Hindu mythology...one of the gods was unable to have sex with his wives so he created human copies of himself so that his wives could bear him children. This seems to reek of that.

Rae

I'm not up on my mythology

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

But if people take this deleted scene as canon, it is a horrible slur on Rose. Brown says this parallel needs defending, and yet he doesn't believe Rose and normal humans at Torchwood are capable of that. Considering Rose tried to rip holes in reality just to be with Brown, I can see why he doesn't think highly of her universe defending skills.

My initial reaction was how arrogant Brown sounds in leaving Blue to defend the universe. Yet, not a moment before Brown said Blue is dangerous and needs babysitting, not that he will become a babysitter himself.

Something that still holds true through this scene is Brown's reaction to having his soul revealed. Brown is Nine: neither could pull the trigger to destroy the Daleks. He had other people as weapons... and Blue became that weapon, so he distances himself from Blue, too, by banishing him in a sealed off parallel. This is classic Doctor of running to leave other people to clean up the mess. But it's interesting that Donna said to wait for Brown... that she didn't agree with Blue right away about destroying the Daleks. So Blue is unique from Donna and Brown, in a sense. But the impression I was left with was that Blue, Brown and Donna love Rose in the same way (judging by Donna's final glance on the beach, but we could be splitting hairs ;) ).

Rose is the one who makes the choice to move on FROM Mickey

Because there are two Tens running around, one of them can't physically be with the woman they love. If Rose pines after Brown, Blue has some fantastic leverage. First, he can remind her that SJS wasted 30 years of her life waiting for a man that left her behind. The same man that promised Rose he'd never leave her has done exactly that. Does Rose want to waste her life waiting on a man that lies to her and can't tell the truth of his feelings? Whatever Brown is turning into at the moment isn't Rose's Doctor. It isn't the audience's Doctor, either. Campaign for Blue replacing Brown in the future, or having kids demonstrating spatial genetic multiplicity.

I think the having his soul revealed thing...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...is important to all of this. That moment when Davros says..."Show your companion your true self." And in this we see that Brown doesn't ever want Rose to see that self. I am looking at this leaving Rose business in context. It is painfully obvious watching Stolen Earth that the Doctor wants to be with Rose. That run toward her is telling...as is his response to the idea of the whole universe ending but it's still good if she comes back. And his response to her punching a whole in the fabric of creation. And his response to her telling him not to leave.

So all of this...is either...him changing his mind...or him simply having his early feelings about how worthless and hopeless his life is confirmed by Davros. It is all lies...this is what bothers me about having any hope for the future of the show. I mean...it has always been true that companions leave the Doctor when they are ready to have their own lives.

Very rarely has he had to just leave them behind...in Old School. Even Jo Grant...found someone else to love. And Tegan and Romana left him, too. And we are introduced in New School...with Sarah Jane being rewritten...to the idea that people are pining for him and hoping to spend their lives with him. This to me is the wrong choice for the show as a whole...I can see it being made once...but RTD has made it 5 times now...and in two of those cases he's made the loss a gutting wrench for the Doctor.

I felt that the canon could take Rose...as the single human woman most likely to completely understand him. The idea of Donna...as a woman ideally suited to his CAREER...as opposed to suited to HIM...was also within reason...especially if it freed him for a time to have "the life he'd never had." But now...we are looking at an altogether different scenario...we are looking at five people---Sarah Jane, Jack, River, Rose and Donna...who wanted to stay with him and who he forced into other lives.

So...then...we are left solely with the hope that the Time Lords can return and that, contrary to the Old School canon, he will reunite with his family and find some kind of peace. Or...we are asked to believe that going forward from this...some wake-up call happens to him. I mean, we, the audience are going to have to put up with this character now...for however long it takes us to bring in and establish ANOTHER companion...this one...he will REALLY respect? I don't think I buy that as a scenario.

I think that in order to redeem the Doctor from this point...he has to go back and respect the companions he already has had. He needs to stop running away from things. That's what is wrong with the show...as a concept...it's about someone who keeps running away. And so...it's not going to get any better until he stops running.

Rae

I'm not up on my Old School, either

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

... But it may give you hope that Trial of a Timelord was also featured in DWM #398. Coincidence?

But, something this has jogged my memory on is Peter Pan, or rather what someone said of it. Specifically, the part where Peter begs Wendy to tell him that he doesn't have a deskjob or children; that he is still a kid that can do what he likes, leading a bunch of lost boys on his never-ending adventures. I think that is the Doctor now. He has been saddled with this huge responsibility, last of the Time Lords. People love him in ways that frighten him. He 'promises' to visit but 'forgets.' He can't be that boy anymore, because the alternative to not growing up leads - as we've seen - to tragedy.

I'll stand with the sledge-hammer for his legs. You phone all his companions to make Earth home visits. ;-)

Seriously...the boy needs an intervention

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

If not a lifetime with Rose. He needs a lifetime with Rose, actually. He needs to go beg her forgiveness and 10.2's and settle down.

I am happy to see Trial of a Time Lord featured. I don't think RTD lets DWM know everything that is going on either...with the storyline. But I think it IS very telling when DT says the Doctor is in a very dark place now. Also, what he said about everyone coming to grips with the tragedy of what happened to Donna...this is what I said about this whole storyline with the break.

By telling us this is the Journey's End...and leaving the Doctor and Rose and 10.2 and Donna in these ambiguous situations...we, the audience, are forced to deal with consequences. Everyone has to sort of make it up from here...fix it. And the interesting thing for me...is that a lot of non-Rose fans are trying to make Rose's storyline work. And a lot of people who didn't really like Donna are trying to make HER story work. And loads of people are trying desperately to justify what the Doctor has done...to see how this is right and proper and/or how River will be the one to save him...or Jenny...or the Time Lords.

This ending gives RTD the freedom to do a much more sentimental ending at Christmas...and make it seem like a welcome relief rather than fan-pandering. He can have his cake and some plum pudding, too...because nobody can accuse him of changing his storyline due to pressure...if that storyline is already filmed and ready to go for Christmas.

Rae
hoping that it isn't just that all RTD has to say about the Doctor is he's a lonely god...and nobody is good enough for him...certainly not the pathetic humans.

I agree - the ending seems off

[(Anonymous)]

Doesn't the "coral" ending defeat the purpose of what was in the canon? I agree with nightbeast, Brown doctor tells us that Rose needs to look after Blue because he's damaged..etc. But he's willing to toss him a chunk of TARDIS and allow him to fly in the sky once again? Oh but because he has Rose that makes it ok, it sounds like Brown is doing some shove-offing. Also Blue is part human and DOCTOR, with one life. He's still the doctor who loves to travel while saving worlds, doesn't that make the experience even more dangerous for him and Rose since he can't regenerate? I would still like my happy ending with a mind swap, I'll have to make a video of it since my hope it wearing thin. >_>;

- Candi who is an obsessed fan of crack theories

Re: I have the transcript for the 'coral'

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

I like this ending better. Thats really all Rusty had to do if he couldn't have the Real!Doctor be with Rose.
The way I see it is that none of us know whats going to happen really. Again RTD might surprise us. If this is it though, he didn't leave well. If this is all he's going to give us then who the hell will watch his new show?

An to answer Lisa on Celibacy: I was Celebate for years. Its safer for me, I don't have to worry about anyone getting too close, but it didn't last forever. I will say if this guy I'm with finally moves on after I move, I'll probably be celibate again.
I never did buy that the Doctor was asexual. He doesn't demonstrate that. I just think Time Lords have a different sexuallity than we do. (Rae can explain it better)
I don't like the womanizing Doctor either. I like sentimental Doctor better.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Really...I don't think this is a happy ending either. Rose is still focused on her Doctor. He does say he's going to be fine...but this way he is obviously lying because he is going to put Donna away as soon as he gets her alone. And he's only setting up more of a 'perfect' life for Rose.

What I do like about this is the level of protest and hardheartedness comes through...but maybe they wanted to be more ambiguous for the Doctor's well being. It is rather like that idea that Donna looks up when the TARDIS departs...that is also sort of confusing for the audience as it sort of sets up the idea that Donna is going to die...as there is no way that she could or should live like this.

I like that David Tennant said you were left with the idea that Rose is left with the man she loves but doesn't have him. I think that's the complete tragedy here...everytimes she looks at him...she will think of the REAL him...alone.

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

You know what I worry about is going to the old ways when Moffat gets the helm. RTD disappointed me with his ending, but he did make the Doctor human and we saw things from his point of view. We cried with him, laughed with him, and saw everything he was about. I worry that all of that will go away. That it will be more about nothing, when Moffat takes over. I don't know, maybe he'll surprise me. I agree, if thats all it is, a show about nothing, then I don't know how long I'll watch.

Semantics

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

I'm intrigued. You think the Doctor is celibate because you identify as such. I think the Doctor's asexual because I identify as such. At the very least, we can ascribe human sentiments to the Doctor. :)

I might be confused about the term celibate, though. To me, celibate means a social vow - for life - to your religion/code of living saying you won't get married and by extension will never engage in partnersex. And yet you use the term celibate to describe a temporary lifestyle choice, out of worry. I probably have missed the social adaptation of the term over the years. Goodness knows I've argued the semantics over Donna's demise being 'mind rape.' :) I'd call your situation abstinence unless certain criteria are met, like you have with your current guy.

I'm interested why you say you don't think the Doctor demonstrates being asexual. What makes you say that? I'll say what it means to me: no inherent desire for partnersex. I don't think the Doctor is aromantic, though, because he obviously seeks companionship, and he worries about getting emotionally attached because he outlives most of the people he chooses to share his home with. I would have a hard time committing my emotions to someone I knew was terminally ill. Blue Ten doesn't have to worry about outliving Rose by a huge margin, so I think he can invest deeper emotions in her. If she'll have him, of course.

Re: Semantics

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

Isn't DW great? It always leaves us scratching our heads. Something RTD definetly loves. However this is Rae's journal and I'm sure weather or not she wants us debating here. You can join my lj if you want to continue.

Well...actually I don't care

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Though I do know that this conversation can get long and be mostly circular in nature. I was thinking of addressing the asexual aspects of the Doctor in an actual LJ post. IF we do that this ending as "the end" then there is a lot to be said for him being asexual. That would go a very long way to explaining why he would think Rose would be content with 10.2 and why HE felt he could never have that life. If he loved Rose yet felt he couldn't satisfy her basic needs...and here was another him who could...well...it would be more in line with the idea of a gift.

But the thing that is essentially wrong with that whole view of things is that Rose was perfectly content...as far as we knew...to be celibate with him. She didn't seem to want the home, kids and settled life when they talked about it. And it isn't a choice she makes for herself at any point. And, in fact, the Doctor (or RTD) giving her that bit of TARDIS...sort of says what we are saying...Rose isn't going to just take being trapped.

Rae

Re: Well...actually I don't care

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

You know I read about this Buddist couple that married under the terms that they never have sex.

Still if this is what the Doctor wanted, why get jealous and heart sick after he loses Rose again? Nine hated it whenever men got too close to her. Ten sobbed and pined over her throughout the 3rd season. So I really can't say either way I guess. I guess its whatever the writers want. RTD made it clear though, that the Doctor was in love with Rose.

(I'd love for people to join my LJ anyway, Who fans are such fun)

I'll keep on topic

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

I won't make a long, circular asexual thread here. I want people to see 40+ comments and choose to look because it's all relevant to the main post. :)

Now, to make this comment relevant, in my picture perfect challenge over at oh_she_knows, I chose Love & Monsters. I wrote the meta before season four finished. Part of that was the Doctor's attitude to unusual couples and his tendency to extend someone's longevity, at the expense of their quality of life, so they could have more time with their 'true love.' I questioned whether he would do that to Rose, fulfilling Jackie's fears that Rose would keep travelling and keep changing. But the end of JE suggests that the Doctor values Rose's humanity more than spending a few more years with her in his very long life. He makes it so he can live on her timescale - he changes to suit her - rather than putting her human spark on a slow burn.

You know, the Doctor is being a doctor

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

Because I, as a 25 year old woman, repeatedly tell my doctors that I don't want children. And they give me this look. This patronising look that says, "I know better. You'll change your mind when you're older, when you've grown tired of the life you currently lead sans kids."

Now, I'm not crippled by my menses, and I'd rather be unhealthy and whole rather than unhealthy and missing bits. But I know people who are crippled by their menses and they near-beg their doctors to take the source of their pain away. Same patronising response, though. I am remarkably tempted to suggest at the next doctor visit that the medic should sign a contract: If she still doesn't want kids in 10 years time, I'll pay for the loss of earnings resulting from the crippling pain, as well as a cost estimate of the reduced quality of life for my ignorance. I wonder if they would be so quick to patronise if they took personal responsibility for that life altering decision to keep things as they are.

I have to say I ground my teeth over Moffat's

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...remark about Rose being a "slightly clingy girlfriend"...but I bet he got a rousing roar from the geeks over that one. Nothing scares a little boy like a strong woman...and they love to see her "put in her place away from the boys she's outshining." I do wonder though if that comment really does line up with RTD's views on women. RTD seems to me to be a man obsessed with alteration and the elevation of the ordinary. And, of course, they had to know they would be facing some hard questions about the finale.

Still...more and more I feel that Doctor Who and I are parting company after Christmas. As I do see that Moffat expects to reintroduce River if he gets David Tennant to re-sign his contract. Really...the only way I support a Moffat Ten is if it is really Eleven.

Rae