The Devil Is In The Details...Humperdinck
Jul. 14th, 2008 08:45 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rabid1stOr maybe the lonely god is in the details...This one is about the Valeyard. And a bit about Ten, too. :wink:
People are going to make me dig up my video tapes, blow twenty years of dust off them and watch them again...yet! And I hate Six. I really...really HATE watching him. But here we go again...some spoilers for Doctor Who S4...all of this being in my own head and having, many people will tell you, no relationship AT all to what is going on in the television show...still...better have a spoiler cut
Let's talk about why I don't think that 10.2 is the Valeyard. Because 10.2 isn't the person between the regenerations. That is 10. He still has his regenerative ability...but he shouldn't exist. He tells us he used just enough regeneration energy to heal himself and then got rid of the rest by aiming it at the handy spare hand. And that hand had a metacrisis with Donna Noble...and created a human/time lord hybrid. Donna's half of the equation...still had her old body...and her purely human mind couldn't contain the Time Lord part...everything coming into her head at once. So she was dying and 10 "saved" her. Never mind that most people faced with a choice between alzheimers and death...pick death. Never mind that Russell, Catherine, David, Billie and Freema...all told us that the one thing that made DONNA so different from Rose or Martha...was that Donna was a fully mature woman able to make her own decisions. I used to bristle over that one...because Rose is very mature at the end...but I think, now...we are supposed to remember that.
10.2 doesn't seem to have Donna's problems with the Time Lord mind. He's mentally as fit as the Doctor...he thinks like him, has all his memories. And he looks like him, too. But...he has this human body which will age and die. He also knows what Donna is thinking...it's a two-way street the knowing...he understands her pain. We need to file that tidbit away for later. So 10.2's human body CAN contain the mind of a Time Lord. And everyone who is pulling for Rose and 10.2 to have a happy life together...is willing to buy that 10.2 is the Doctor only in a human body...and a little battle-scarred, like 9 was. If he and Rose aren't in love at this point...they will be soon enough. HE IS THE DOCTOR. That's what we are all supposed to cling to for his and Rose's happiness. He even says he is the Doctor...when Donna says, "Wait for the Doctor." He says, "I am the Doctor." But...he makes poor choices and needs someone to look after him and heal him.
Okay...so...what do we know about the Valeyard? Not much if we don't look at the book canon...and we shouldn't. We know...that he used the Master. The Master...worked for the Valeyard. WHY? Well, because he hoped to get something out of it, obviously. He used to work for big scary people all the time. The Master also once said, "A universe without the Doctor, scarcely bears thinking on." And who else survived the Time War? That's right...the Master. Show of hands for people who think if the Valeyard told the Master how he was going to end up...the Master would work for the Valeyard to stop it?
:HAND UP:
The Valeyard is a distillation of the Doctor's evil side...appearing between his 12th and 13th regeneration. He was a personification of the Doctor's fears, emptiness, etc. We know from the Five Doctors...that good Time Lords do go bad sometimes. Lord Borusa was the Doctor's beloved mentor...a very good and kind man...and he went power mad in the end and was willing to kill to get immortality. Rassilon shows us this has happened to many others.
I am taking liberties with the exact canon view of the Valeyard...specifically WHEN he appears and exactly what he is...because so little is really known and I think this story RTD is telling allows us to take some liberties...like having Sarah Jane in love with the Doctor was a liberty. Also current events change future ones...the future is always in flux. So, we might not have all our facts straight anyway. But we are still within spitting distance of 12 if 10 just used up a regeneration.
And this is how Whoverse time travel works...you can't change YOUR past. You can change your future. The Sixth Doctor knows about the Valeyard...and so he might be on guard against that...even though he really didn't seem terribly convinced there was any danger of his destroying Gallifrey at the time. Being aware of the problem...could change the NATURE of the problem.
Oh...did I mention that the Valeyard said if the Doctor wasn't stopped he would destroy Gallifrey? And...he has! RTD opens his series with that premise...that the Doctor is the one who pushed the button.
The Valeyard wanted the Sixth Doctor's remaining regenerations...we presume because he has none of his own. But maybe because he felt that he could stop himself at that point. He also wanted the High Council of Gallifrey dead. He intended to slaughter THEM after they gave him the Doctor's regenerations. <<--a vital point that has been revisited in New Who via the Master...the council could give you MORE regenerations. It doesn't HAVE to end at 13. How do they do that? We don't know! But it does look like the mind gets too full...or the spirit gets too dark and corrupt...for the flesh to go on.
And speaking of the flesh...one of the canon THINGS about the Doctor is he doesn't care about his body...listen to Nine talking about having no head..."And don't say that's an improvement." Doctors look at themselves once...and dress and then that's it for personal appearance...but 10...says he didn't want to change...why should he? Why indeed...? Gods are perfect as they are. But every Who fan...secretly knows...that he HAS to change. People even got sort of bent out of shape about being "tricked" about the regeneration. But what if the Doctor really DID regenerate...but he was forced into a human body? Just like the Master forced HIS essence into Nyssa's father's body in The Keeper of Traken?
The Valeyard manipulated a virtual world known as The Matrix...where he hid from the Doctor. He used his skills with that sort of world building to make it seem that the Sixth Doctor had violated the laws of time. In the end...the Doctor believes he has trapped the Valeyard in the Matrix...but we all know the Valeyard escaped. We know that a future Doctor...will possibly LOOK like 10, but with old, old eyes...and definitely visit his friend/companion/lover River in a virtual world. We also know...if we listen...that River is manipulated into not only sacrificing herself...BUT...into going on living. A life, as some people pointed out, that is hardly perfect for an adventure seeker like River Song. Of course, even though we see River being all domestic...someone else pointed out she had every book in the universe to explore.
There is someone already in the Torchwood universe...which IS the Whoverse...that LOOKS a lot like the Valeyard...and that's Bilis Manger. It is interesting to me...that we have no further explanation of him...nor does he die...he was a time traveler...and he set out to suck the Bad Wolf power out of Jack...and he did it for the good of the world. Sounds very Valeyard to me. Especially if Bad Wolf Rose put that power into Jack for a specific purpose...something Jack feels is true. The most likely purpose for that connection to Rose...is to connect to Rose. And yet...we leave that connection...unexplored in JE. Put another way...if you need to get to Rose the mostly likely path is via Jack and his magic rift...the two things the mysterious Bilis sets out to destroy.
I can indeed see a short run series with the Valeyard as the enemy...with him trying to stop 10 from getting back to Rose...by short circuiting any attempt 10 makes to correct the forward motion of events. The Valeyard will, of course, feel free to meddle in his own past...something that is forbidden...because he means to "fix everything." And the solution to all this is to have the Doctor stop trying to "fix everything." For him to admit what the canon tells us he's always needed to admit...1) he isn't having fun 2) he can't save everyone, especially from their own desires 3) he needs to stop running.
The Valeyard is stuck in the past...literally. He's the one major villian from Old School that we haven't faced. And facing him really answers the BIG question from Old Doctor Who...will the Doctor go bad at the end...and is that end almost upon us? And most of all...how do we stop it...? I think that the way we stop it is for the Old Doctor Who to go...and New Who to be born. New Who...is 10.2...he doesn't need the Time Lords back...he has a planet and a family...Earth. He's not the God of these people...he's like them...half-them...he's a sort of half-brother. He doesn't need anybody to stop him...because he was made out of the person who could stop him...she's inside him...he knows how she thinks...what she'd say. Probably, when she would look over at him and go, "She's engaged, you Prawn."
I hope all of this is solved at Christmas for three reasons. One, I really don't think that the kiddies or any of us...can take much more dark, brooding Doctor. Two, Christmas is a good time to give us good news about all our storylines. Three, RTD would have three episodes to get people used to 10.2...and then...they would have Moffat to fix it if people got too bent out of shape by it all.
So...why shouldn't people get bent out of shape by all this...? Well, it is all canon. The Doctor changes into a new man at his regeneration...we don't know what kind of man he will be...but we accept the change. And once before...in the Eighth Doctor movie...we were asked to accept that he was half-human...with NO plausible explanation at all. Here...we have a plausible explanation. We have also accepted that the Master...can take another body and be given a whole new set of regenerations. We have accepted that the Doctor's mental essence...can be stored in a pocket watch. We have accepted that 10.2 is the Doctor in every way...except...his human body. So...if 10.2 and 10...changed places...bodies...then 10.2 IS the Doctor.
And all we have to accept is that having a bit of Donna Noble in him...is a good thing...and his judgement is not impaired. YES! But it is...he killed the Daleks. He is full of rage. Is he? Did he kill the Daleks because he hated them and wanted them to die? No...he killed them because he was listening to Caan's prophecy. He said, fulfilling the prophecy. 10...doesn't listen. 10 is told...one will still die. That's Donna. But 10 doesn't listen. Because he's NOT the Doctor. 10.2 is the Doctor...with enough Donna Noble in him to stop himself...AND to ask something very important...of Rose.
Rose tells 10..."But I spent all that time trying to find you, I'm not going back, now." And 10 says, "But you've got to." But when 10.2 is entreated to "Tell her" how special a gift he is...10.2 does something VERY Doctorish...he tells Rose that he has a human body..."Specifically the aging part...I'll grow old and never regenerate. I've got one life, I can spend it with you, Rose Tyler. If you want." And he shrugs. IF SHE WANTS. He gave her a choice.
10.2 is the Doctor...he's just been shuttled into the wrong body...because 10...is losing his judgement. We don't see it, because we love 10. Is it too late to stop? No, I would like to think he stops himself at Christmas. I would like to think he sees the Devil in the details and takes steps to head off the Valeyard once and for all...putting an end to the lonely god by giving him what he's said over and over that he wants but can never have...a family again...a home...a normal life where he doesn't have to watch his loved ones wither and die, with no hope of following them into the beyond. We can't deny the fact that 10 wants the life he's given 10.2...and 10.2 may well want the life...and be better suited to deal with the life that 10 is now living.
Rae
People are going to make me dig up my video tapes, blow twenty years of dust off them and watch them again...yet! And I hate Six. I really...really HATE watching him. But here we go again...some spoilers for Doctor Who S4...all of this being in my own head and having, many people will tell you, no relationship AT all to what is going on in the television show...still...better have a spoiler cut
Let's talk about why I don't think that 10.2 is the Valeyard. Because 10.2 isn't the person between the regenerations. That is 10. He still has his regenerative ability...but he shouldn't exist. He tells us he used just enough regeneration energy to heal himself and then got rid of the rest by aiming it at the handy spare hand. And that hand had a metacrisis with Donna Noble...and created a human/time lord hybrid. Donna's half of the equation...still had her old body...and her purely human mind couldn't contain the Time Lord part...everything coming into her head at once. So she was dying and 10 "saved" her. Never mind that most people faced with a choice between alzheimers and death...pick death. Never mind that Russell, Catherine, David, Billie and Freema...all told us that the one thing that made DONNA so different from Rose or Martha...was that Donna was a fully mature woman able to make her own decisions. I used to bristle over that one...because Rose is very mature at the end...but I think, now...we are supposed to remember that.
10.2 doesn't seem to have Donna's problems with the Time Lord mind. He's mentally as fit as the Doctor...he thinks like him, has all his memories. And he looks like him, too. But...he has this human body which will age and die. He also knows what Donna is thinking...it's a two-way street the knowing...he understands her pain. We need to file that tidbit away for later. So 10.2's human body CAN contain the mind of a Time Lord. And everyone who is pulling for Rose and 10.2 to have a happy life together...is willing to buy that 10.2 is the Doctor only in a human body...and a little battle-scarred, like 9 was. If he and Rose aren't in love at this point...they will be soon enough. HE IS THE DOCTOR. That's what we are all supposed to cling to for his and Rose's happiness. He even says he is the Doctor...when Donna says, "Wait for the Doctor." He says, "I am the Doctor." But...he makes poor choices and needs someone to look after him and heal him.
Okay...so...what do we know about the Valeyard? Not much if we don't look at the book canon...and we shouldn't. We know...that he used the Master. The Master...worked for the Valeyard. WHY? Well, because he hoped to get something out of it, obviously. He used to work for big scary people all the time. The Master also once said, "A universe without the Doctor, scarcely bears thinking on." And who else survived the Time War? That's right...the Master. Show of hands for people who think if the Valeyard told the Master how he was going to end up...the Master would work for the Valeyard to stop it?
:HAND UP:
The Valeyard is a distillation of the Doctor's evil side...appearing between his 12th and 13th regeneration. He was a personification of the Doctor's fears, emptiness, etc. We know from the Five Doctors...that good Time Lords do go bad sometimes. Lord Borusa was the Doctor's beloved mentor...a very good and kind man...and he went power mad in the end and was willing to kill to get immortality. Rassilon shows us this has happened to many others.
I am taking liberties with the exact canon view of the Valeyard...specifically WHEN he appears and exactly what he is...because so little is really known and I think this story RTD is telling allows us to take some liberties...like having Sarah Jane in love with the Doctor was a liberty. Also current events change future ones...the future is always in flux. So, we might not have all our facts straight anyway. But we are still within spitting distance of 12 if 10 just used up a regeneration.
And this is how Whoverse time travel works...you can't change YOUR past. You can change your future. The Sixth Doctor knows about the Valeyard...and so he might be on guard against that...even though he really didn't seem terribly convinced there was any danger of his destroying Gallifrey at the time. Being aware of the problem...could change the NATURE of the problem.
Oh...did I mention that the Valeyard said if the Doctor wasn't stopped he would destroy Gallifrey? And...he has! RTD opens his series with that premise...that the Doctor is the one who pushed the button.
The Valeyard wanted the Sixth Doctor's remaining regenerations...we presume because he has none of his own. But maybe because he felt that he could stop himself at that point. He also wanted the High Council of Gallifrey dead. He intended to slaughter THEM after they gave him the Doctor's regenerations. <<--a vital point that has been revisited in New Who via the Master...the council could give you MORE regenerations. It doesn't HAVE to end at 13. How do they do that? We don't know! But it does look like the mind gets too full...or the spirit gets too dark and corrupt...for the flesh to go on.
And speaking of the flesh...one of the canon THINGS about the Doctor is he doesn't care about his body...listen to Nine talking about having no head..."And don't say that's an improvement." Doctors look at themselves once...and dress and then that's it for personal appearance...but 10...says he didn't want to change...why should he? Why indeed...? Gods are perfect as they are. But every Who fan...secretly knows...that he HAS to change. People even got sort of bent out of shape about being "tricked" about the regeneration. But what if the Doctor really DID regenerate...but he was forced into a human body? Just like the Master forced HIS essence into Nyssa's father's body in The Keeper of Traken?
The Valeyard manipulated a virtual world known as The Matrix...where he hid from the Doctor. He used his skills with that sort of world building to make it seem that the Sixth Doctor had violated the laws of time. In the end...the Doctor believes he has trapped the Valeyard in the Matrix...but we all know the Valeyard escaped. We know that a future Doctor...will possibly LOOK like 10, but with old, old eyes...and definitely visit his friend/companion/lover River in a virtual world. We also know...if we listen...that River is manipulated into not only sacrificing herself...BUT...into going on living. A life, as some people pointed out, that is hardly perfect for an adventure seeker like River Song. Of course, even though we see River being all domestic...someone else pointed out she had every book in the universe to explore.
There is someone already in the Torchwood universe...which IS the Whoverse...that LOOKS a lot like the Valeyard...and that's Bilis Manger. It is interesting to me...that we have no further explanation of him...nor does he die...he was a time traveler...and he set out to suck the Bad Wolf power out of Jack...and he did it for the good of the world. Sounds very Valeyard to me. Especially if Bad Wolf Rose put that power into Jack for a specific purpose...something Jack feels is true. The most likely purpose for that connection to Rose...is to connect to Rose. And yet...we leave that connection...unexplored in JE. Put another way...if you need to get to Rose the mostly likely path is via Jack and his magic rift...the two things the mysterious Bilis sets out to destroy.
I can indeed see a short run series with the Valeyard as the enemy...with him trying to stop 10 from getting back to Rose...by short circuiting any attempt 10 makes to correct the forward motion of events. The Valeyard will, of course, feel free to meddle in his own past...something that is forbidden...because he means to "fix everything." And the solution to all this is to have the Doctor stop trying to "fix everything." For him to admit what the canon tells us he's always needed to admit...1) he isn't having fun 2) he can't save everyone, especially from their own desires 3) he needs to stop running.
The Valeyard is stuck in the past...literally. He's the one major villian from Old School that we haven't faced. And facing him really answers the BIG question from Old Doctor Who...will the Doctor go bad at the end...and is that end almost upon us? And most of all...how do we stop it...? I think that the way we stop it is for the Old Doctor Who to go...and New Who to be born. New Who...is 10.2...he doesn't need the Time Lords back...he has a planet and a family...Earth. He's not the God of these people...he's like them...half-them...he's a sort of half-brother. He doesn't need anybody to stop him...because he was made out of the person who could stop him...she's inside him...he knows how she thinks...what she'd say. Probably, when she would look over at him and go, "She's engaged, you Prawn."
I hope all of this is solved at Christmas for three reasons. One, I really don't think that the kiddies or any of us...can take much more dark, brooding Doctor. Two, Christmas is a good time to give us good news about all our storylines. Three, RTD would have three episodes to get people used to 10.2...and then...they would have Moffat to fix it if people got too bent out of shape by it all.
So...why shouldn't people get bent out of shape by all this...? Well, it is all canon. The Doctor changes into a new man at his regeneration...we don't know what kind of man he will be...but we accept the change. And once before...in the Eighth Doctor movie...we were asked to accept that he was half-human...with NO plausible explanation at all. Here...we have a plausible explanation. We have also accepted that the Master...can take another body and be given a whole new set of regenerations. We have accepted that the Doctor's mental essence...can be stored in a pocket watch. We have accepted that 10.2 is the Doctor in every way...except...his human body. So...if 10.2 and 10...changed places...bodies...then 10.2 IS the Doctor.
And all we have to accept is that having a bit of Donna Noble in him...is a good thing...and his judgement is not impaired. YES! But it is...he killed the Daleks. He is full of rage. Is he? Did he kill the Daleks because he hated them and wanted them to die? No...he killed them because he was listening to Caan's prophecy. He said, fulfilling the prophecy. 10...doesn't listen. 10 is told...one will still die. That's Donna. But 10 doesn't listen. Because he's NOT the Doctor. 10.2 is the Doctor...with enough Donna Noble in him to stop himself...AND to ask something very important...of Rose.
Rose tells 10..."But I spent all that time trying to find you, I'm not going back, now." And 10 says, "But you've got to." But when 10.2 is entreated to "Tell her" how special a gift he is...10.2 does something VERY Doctorish...he tells Rose that he has a human body..."Specifically the aging part...I'll grow old and never regenerate. I've got one life, I can spend it with you, Rose Tyler. If you want." And he shrugs. IF SHE WANTS. He gave her a choice.
10.2 is the Doctor...he's just been shuttled into the wrong body...because 10...is losing his judgement. We don't see it, because we love 10. Is it too late to stop? No, I would like to think he stops himself at Christmas. I would like to think he sees the Devil in the details and takes steps to head off the Valeyard once and for all...putting an end to the lonely god by giving him what he's said over and over that he wants but can never have...a family again...a home...a normal life where he doesn't have to watch his loved ones wither and die, with no hope of following them into the beyond. We can't deny the fact that 10 wants the life he's given 10.2...and 10.2 may well want the life...and be better suited to deal with the life that 10 is now living.
Rae
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-15 02:10 am (UTC)I really enjoy reading your analyses; you put a LOT of thought and common sense into them!
*Hugs*
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-15 02:33 am (UTC)You do know, I hope, that many people abhor my over the top sense of melodrama and are...if not happy with JE...quite content?
I'm just causing trouble over here.
Still, I do love your icon. I'm going to have to make one of those for myself. :wink:
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-15 02:52 am (UTC)A life, as some people pointed out, that is hardly perfect for an adventure seeker like River Song.
People forget that River Song and her crew weren't just put into that little slice of virtual suburbia. No, just like CAL, they have every book in the universe to play in. I, for one, would give up my corporeal form to quest with Frodo and the Fellowship, to ride dragons on Pern, to journey to the land of Xanth... (to travel with the Doctor? ;) )
It's not a bad life he gave her, just not a normal one. And who wants normalcy? Not River, I bet.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-15 03:00 am (UTC)Rae
Free Will
Date: 2008-07-15 03:25 am (UTC)Re: Free Will
Date: 2008-07-15 12:06 pm (UTC)AND...and...this ending is uber-creepy for what it says about the Doctor and it is rather hopeless for all of us. I mean...nobody would want to travel with this guy after this...and he's always going to end up alone and heartsick...so why does HE even want to do this?
Rae
Re: Free Will
Date: 2008-07-15 03:42 pm (UTC)I'm sorry, I'm feeling very depressed about the whole thing right now and wondering how I could have been such an idiot, to give my heart to this show and dare to hope it would turn out all right.
Re: Free Will
Date: 2008-07-15 03:52 pm (UTC)He is giving us these five months to argue and be sad. We can convince ourselves that this is all wrong. And he doesn't even have to work on the non-shippers...they will all be coming over to tell you and I think Rose is happy because 10.2 is the Doctor...in every way but his human body. How can they THEN say...oh...but he's NOT good enough for the rest of us?
Rae
Re: Free Will
Date: 2008-07-15 03:55 pm (UTC)Oh, well...anyway...I do hope that my insight into things continues on...but if the show is over...then it is over...and if the Doctor is going to go on getting more and more alone and god-like than the show is pretty much over.
I am thinking though...I may have given Moffat a bad wrap with his lonely angel and god-figure thing...because it could be that Moffat IS playing to RTD's theme of the Doctor developing a god complex. The Doctor in the empty child was sort of sweet and funny.
Rae
Re: Free Will
Date: 2008-07-15 09:34 pm (UTC)Even in S2 we got very little straightforward happy before they were dropping anvils all over the place that This Could Never Last.
Thoughts
Date: 2008-07-15 03:03 am (UTC)When I watched the scene at the end of JE, my immediate thought was Whoah! when did they change clothes? I thought for sure that Ten and Ten point 2 had changed places. Until the whole Rose asking the question of them thing.... hmmm I hope you're right!
I think they are going to change places
Date: 2008-07-15 12:12 pm (UTC)If you watch the hugging scene...pause it at the very start. Rose turns to Ten and Ten turns to Rose...we then see 10.2 hug Sarah Jane...so he turned away from Rose. We see Martha, next to 10, hug someone else. 10 and Rose are hugging...we just don't see it. Because seeing THAT just might give the whole game of 10.2 being just like him...away. People can and do miss the subtler bits like Ten and Rose bonding over Gwen...and 10.2 smiling indulgently at them from afar.
Rae
Re: I think they are going to change places
Date: 2008-07-15 08:56 pm (UTC)Re: I think they are going to change places
Date: 2008-07-15 09:02 pm (UTC)Well...maybe...I do think the name...
Date: 2008-07-15 09:22 pm (UTC)And...well...I think River is a victim...I think she really thought she was special to him...and then found she wasn't...but the stuff about Donna still haunts me...because it still makes Donna seem very important to the Doctor's story. Did anyone with the Daleks admit to being behind what is happening to Donna?
Also, if Donna is in his head...you remember how he said in S1 that he could tell the Time Lords were all gone because there was nothing in his head...but I wonder if Donna gives him that connection again. I just think 10.2 is the Doctor proper. And 10 is that sad, lonely part that needs Rose's love and support to feel whole.
Rae
The reason I think Rose is an exception
Date: 2008-07-15 09:17 pm (UTC)RTD kept saying that Rose and the Doctor completed one another...male and female. And I think that is correct...they are so alike...and even more so if he gives up his power at Christmas.
I do hope he does...so many people are arguing that Rose got what she wanted or deserved...but lots of people feel uncomfortable now...and everyone is having to justify something about this...and the simple fact is...he does what he does to Donna AFTER he's "lost Rose forever"...I also like that apparently RTD said they all had a hard time on the beach because they didn't know if they were filming something happy or sad.
Which is what makes me wonder why didn't they know that? I mean...THEY are creating the story. It seems to me they WANT us to question it.
Rae
Re: The reason I think Rose is an exception
Date: 2008-07-15 09:38 pm (UTC)I don't watch shows to see people settling. I can get that in RL.
And...really...10.2 is the Doctor
Date: 2008-07-15 09:51 pm (UTC)And okay...she's a fool...we certainly got that from the old school people (of which I am one...as I keep saying) when Rose said, "I thought you and me...obviously I got that part wrong." Rose though...is not the one saying she wants to stay with him forever...or her whole life time...or that they need a house...or even that she loves him. Rose answers HIS questions..."Then what?" or "How long are you going to stay with me?" And she flat out tells people..."He does it alone." That's WHY she's staying with him...because she loves him and can't bear the idea of him suffering alone.
And yet...there he is...suffering alone. It would have been SO very easy to have had him say that HE doesn't need her anymore...he's all better now...healed...able to go on alone. But that's NOT what happens. He needs someone more than ever.
Oh...and Donna...knew he was taking her memories...at the end...she shrinks away from him and says, "Oh, god...I can't go back." She saw what he meant to do...so she WAS protesting...and RTD made a special point of telling us...Donna is a fully mature woman, she knows exactly what she's doing when she goes with the Doctor...which means she knows how dangerous it is...and that she might die.
Rae
Christmas 2008 or 2009? ;)
Date: 2008-07-20 06:10 pm (UTC)...with him trying to stop 10 from getting back to Rose
Now, I'm not one for believing what I'm told in the Confidentials, but Tennant explained that 'in gifting [Rose] this other Doctor, he's not really allowing himself to go back.' I think Brown's mindset at the moment is moving on, 'it will pass, everything does.' I think it's more likely that things will catch up with him, a reality check. If we want the ultimate cheesy Christmas episode would be Scrooge - the Doctor past, the Doctor present and the Doctor future. What starts out quite hopeful with young love is ruined by monopolising the world, and Scrooge Doctor is shown his future where everybody hates him and he can't bear it. Not least because he's on his own, but his TARDIS will die with him with no 'heir' and the Universe will go to Hell.
btw, how's your oh_she_knows entry for Age of Steel? Any inspiration for the Dark Lord and Burning Sun?
Re: Christmas 2008 or 2009? ;)
Date: 2008-07-21 12:44 am (UTC)See? If you mean to trade out a Doctor...and they do...you should trade out the damaged one. And that is 10...and he's already dead. He is dead. We know he is. But we don't want him to die...anymore than Rose does. So...yes...you could say it is a Christmas Carol...or It's a Wonderful Life...either way...it is basically the Doctor getting a good look at where he is heading...his future.
And I think that is toward madness. I really REALLY hope that we don't have a year of dark Doctor episodes...because that would dump all the healing in Moffat's lap. I think instead we need to have episodes that establish why this works...then...if it really DOESN'T work...Moffat can still bring 10 back from the other side and have him take over...again. But I think it will work...people will tune in...and I think that the Time Lords will come back of their own accord at the end of NEXT year's Christmas Special...so that we do have everyone tuning in for 2010.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-21 02:26 am (UTC)/bitter
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-21 02:38 am (UTC)It is possible that RTD has reached his creative limits and it was all about selling toys. I don't want to see SM or anyone take over from this point...because it all rings hollow to me from here. I mean...yes...I can see that glorious moment when 10.2 and Rose's children burst into the real universe...and 10 finds Jenny and a way to go back and save Gallifrey.
I can see all that happening...and Donna Noble's legend is sung forever...and Rose is happy with 10.2...and safely tucked away. I can see that sort of cobbled together into a story...but it is hollow...and we are supposed to cheer for the lonely god...striding across the stars...snapping his fingers at the TARDIS? Nope...that guy is not my Doctor.
The reason the Doctor worked...for years...is because he really is sort of flawed and human. He comes from this wonderful place...and he's really smart...but he's the "teaspoon and an open mind" sort of fellow. He's the one all the other time lords sort of patted on the head. He's not a god. He's not this amazing being who you get giddy standing near. Ten with Rose...was the Doctor. Ten deprived of Rose...even in S2...was scary. In S3...he was almost demonic...those scenes where he disposes of the Family of Blood...they really...REALLY bothered me.
And Martha's selfless and blind devotion bothered me. Because she didn't have any idea who he was...and he didn't care about her at all...never even looked at her...as she said. And there was River with the same blind devotion. And while Rose is, at least, less blind...and still able to see the truth...she seems to have been outmanuevered this time.
Rusty's story doesn't add up...it just doesn't. So, it remains to be seen if he means to just make this ending fit...or if we were right to think it was the Valeyard coming in S3. You know...that it was the Master...would explain how the Master knew so much about the Valeyard back in the day.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-21 10:08 pm (UTC)Hee, I remember there were, like, three of us who thought that. IT MADE SO MUCH SENSE ASDFHAGJK! I mean, I adored Simm!Master, I did (even though I'm still against bringing back any Time Lords before the Doctor works out his issues) - but I wanted to see the consequences of the Doctor's actions be made clear (do bad things = bad things happen), full stop. Instead we got Tinkerbell!Jesus!Doctor. Who thought settling down with the Master for FoeYay fun tiems was a good way to resolve the horrific decimation of the human species that the Doctor purports to love SO MUCH. Ugh. ...okay, I may be having more profound issues with DW than I originally thought.
The "selling toys" thing was probably me transferring some George Lucas issues onto RTD. I don't really think that (mostly). I'm just sick of writers throwing time-honored storytelling structure out the window in favor of laziness and poorly done TV tropes. It's all so unnecessary.
I don't want to see SM or anyone take over from this point...because it all rings hollow to me from here.
I don't think I'll love -or even like- SM's version of DW, but at least I won't be emotionally invested in it either, which will be a relief, you know? It's completely hollow, you're right about that, but I can live with hollow - because that means I don't have to care.
In S3...he was almost demonic...those scenes where he disposes of the Family of Blood...they really...REALLY bothered me.
It worked for me b/c I thought the whole point was that he was slowly becoming the very thing he fights against. Disturbing, but purposefully so. I still think that's what PC was going for (along with hammering home that The Doctor Is Alien, No Really!), it just wasn't followed up on. And I'd take PC as showrunner over both RTD and SM in a heartbeat.
Martha's selfless and blind devotion bothered me. Because she didn't have any idea who he was...and he didn't care about her at all...never even looked at her...as she said.
It felt unnatural to me. Like it was shoved onto her character just to make sure she was sufficiently worshipful that she would sacrifice her own well-being and happiness and stay with the Doctor no matter how badly he treated her, no matter what horrible things she was put through, so she would walk the Earth telling everyone how wonderful he was. It seemed to sacrifice the character we were introduced to in S&J just so that we could have Tinkerbell!Jesus!Doctor in the finale. Which turns her into a plot device instead of a person with thoughts and hopes and feelings of her own, and that's no fun for anybody. I'm glad this was eventually rectified in TW and S4 (and I LOVE Martha to a ridiculous degree), but it should never have been introduced to begin with, IMO.
Rusty's story doesn't add up...it just doesn't. So, it remains to be seen if he means to just make this ending fit...or if we were right to think it was the Valeyard coming in S3.
I think maybe Rusty's just tired, and doesn't feel like putting anymore effort into DW. I know I'm tired. If the Valeyard shows I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I'm not putting any hope into the idea. The finale got spectacular ratings, and most people seem relatively happy with it, so there's no incentive for the DW team to do any better. It's like most sitcoms and reality television: I have no idea why they appeal to people, but they get good ratings - and in TV that's all that really seems to matter.