The Army of God and the Song of the Ood...humperdinck

[rabid1st]

:Le Sigh:

There will be spoilers in this post for S4 Doctor Who...all the way to the finale.

So let's do our LJ cut...I can only hope all of you lovely unspoiled people come back here in a few weeks and read all this. I'm surprised I haven't been defriended for my obsessive ranting.

We first hear about the DoctorDonna in Planet of the Ood...this is also where the Ood tell the Doctor his song is coming to an end. I know it is generally assumed that the Ood were talking about "River Song" and this is just a wink and nudge moment. But the problem I have with that is that the Ood have just invited the Doctor and Donna to stay with them. There is room in the song for you, Doctor, they tell him. And he indicates the TARDIS...same old life...and says he has a song. Then they say that his song is coming to an end. All songs end, they say. Just as Bad Wolf Rose said, everything ends. And every WHO fan knows that all songs end...Doctors and companions change...the show changes. But at the end of JE...we have the same lonely old Doctor in his police box.

He's safe there, as his subconcious mind told the journal of impossible things. Nothing can hurt him in his box. None of us tend to think outside this particular blue box either...do we...? Yet, it is what he indicated here...when he said he had a song. And Rose is worried about him living the "same old life" and for a second when he was with the Ood before...he lost the police box...and he grabbed onto the life he wanted...with some terror but with some delight as well.

So, let's look at these Ood...with no free will. They are cut off from their great brain and both the brain and the Ood are diminished by the separation. The Ood are refered to as the Great Mind's children...but only when they are joined together do we hear the true song of unity and peace. There is room for the DoctorDonna in that song. And we hear the song again...when the Doctor and his children are pulling the Earth home...when Donna and 10.2 are standing there together smiling on everyone...united and at peace. I say this is the new age Doctor...one who can lead humanity to a higher purpose...more a teacher than a god.

But let's say the Doctor is right in everything he did in JE. And the song thing was about River. We are told that the children of time are an army. Both of those things have God image all over them...it is a very common metaphor...the Children of God become the Army of God. God is a separate all knowing entity that directs us to a "better life." We have free will but he knows best...so we do what he wants us to do. We can't even decide to die without him meddling in it.

Looking at Midnight again...we see that a Doctor separated from people is a rather petty god. He's on about how clever he is...and that's why he gets to decide what they should do. And he keeps the enemy close...for too long. And I think about 10.2 and his following through on the genocide of the Daleks when Nine wouldn't do that. Nine didn't kill them when he had the chance, either. 10.2 is his own man...really. And like Donna killing the wasp that was dragging Agatha down...10.2 kills the Daleks that are dragging the Doctor down.

Dalek Caan and the Doctor have a lot in common. They are the last sad remants of their kind. In the first season of New Who we are told that the amazing thing about the human race was the way they got out there and mingled with all the other species in the universe. They danced. They interbred. Humans and aliens mixed and became something new and exciting. All the other Daleks of Skaaro gave that a shot...but not Caan...he was clinging to the past. He wanted to have the glory of his lost empire back...so he flew into the Time Vortex. I can see the Doctor wanting the same thing...Gallifrey back. Worse, I can see the fans going...oh, good. But is it good to resurrect the dead past in the hopes of making it better this time? Father's Day told us no...you can start over with another man...but you can't make the dead live again.

I wonder if the reason the Doctor didn't want to kill the Daleks was that he can't bear to see the Time War end...and to put that part of his life behind him. And again...I think of the Valeyard...who we know came back through time to stop himself and the high council from succeeding. It is rather like a worm eating itself if RTD is working us toward the Valeyard...then he's taken brilliant tiny steps toward it every year. And the one true way to stop it happening...is to have 10.2 take over...then his inner Donna can stop him. And he, the great mind, will be one of his people rather then a separate ruling entity. The children will no longer be his army...his cannon fodder...but will be his family.

In the Doctor's Daughter he says something about not being a monkey's uncle...and I thought, oh, he's still got that I'm so above you thing going on. And he has it again in Midnight. And the child born in war...lives on...with Jenny...but again...I think...10.2 wasn't born in WAR at all...he was born out of love. First, the love 10 felt for Rose...and then a love of Donna as she needed him so much and was so afraid...and he came to help her. And he was always so calm about things...in the middle of the torture...not like 10...who seemed a few bricks short of a wall if you ask me.

Comments

[pathnotfollowed.livejournal.com]

Brilliantly put Rae - throughly enjoying this little 'theory master class' of yours btw! Are you leading up to saying that 10.2 (and therefore possibly rose too) will come back? If the cybermen are in the xmas special, have they come through from Pete's world? And if so, will they bring said anti-hero with them?!

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

But let's say the Doctor is right in everything he did in JE. And the song thing was about River. We are told that the children of time are an army. Both of those things have God image all over them...it is a very common metaphor...the Children of God become the Army of God. God is a separate all knowing entity that directs us to a "better life." We have free will but he knows best...so we do what he wants us to do. We can't even decide to die without him meddling in it.

This makes me think of Charles Manson, directing his 'children' to do his bidding. *shudder*

[ladymalchav.livejournal.com]

The Doctor (Nine) didn't hold back from killing the Daleks because he didn't want to. He stopped because he would have also killed every living thing on the planet Earth as well.

That, to me, is his one big failing. The inability to take acceptable loss. It's also his highest virtue. I mean, it's gotten a bit silly with him wanting to save Davros (I mean, really? C'mon.) And sometimes it costs more than it should (almost killing Rose, killing Nine himself), but then, sometimes, everybody lives, and that's worth it, I think.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

There's a good point. It would have killed everyone on Earth. So he was a more reasonable man than he is now. 10.2 does what Bad Wolf Rose does...when she sees all...what Caan who has seen all recommends...he puts an end to the Daleks. If Caan is Cassandra...than someone should listen to him...and our hero doesn't.

Rae

[ladymalchav.livejournal.com]

Isn't the point of the Cassandra Complex that no one listens?

I don't think the Doctor cared about the Daleks, he wanted to save Davros. It was to that end that he hesitated to kill the Daleks. Because Davros was an individual life, where the Daleks are more of a hivemind. It's the same as it was with the Master. No matter how evil he is, it's still a life, and, to the Doctor, that is the most precious thing.

Though, we all know Davros never would have let the Doctor 'save' him. He chose instead to burn with his creations. The Doctor knew this, too, but, especially after the events of Midnight, he still had to try. Because life, no matter whose, is the most precious thing.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Ah...well...he did say he didn't want the Daleks destroyed...and the feedback loop didn't seem to affect Davros. And yes, the whole point of Cassandra is that nobody listens. Hence, me saying someone should listen to him. :grin: 10.2 listens. 10 ignores him. And so do we...we ignore that whole look at the Doctor's inner fire business...and how Caan says that the fire will become flame and the flame will burn through everything.

On the other hand...maybe that is just that fire at the end...burning everyone...but then...that's still 10.2. Personally, I can make this fit any old way at this point...and the only thing I have to cling to is that nobody got what they really wanted...and the Doctor as a lonely god is all wrong for the character and the show and we keep getting told this by marginalized characters.

Rae

[ladymalchav.livejournal.com]

and the Doctor as a lonely god is all wrong for the character and the show

Amen on that, sister.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Also...one more thing...about Davros. Davros...is already dead. He died in the time war. Something that was NOT true of the Master, he escaped. But Dalek Caan went back and broke the laws of time to save Davros. Even if we assume that 10 was trying to save Davros...he was wrong to try to do that...just as Rose was wrong to try to save her father in Father's Day.

Rae

[ladymalchav.livejournal.com]

You see, this is where it gets iffy, what with time travel and all.

The way I see it is:

Dalek Caan went back and saved Davros during the Time War, which means, Dalek Cann had already gone back and saved Davros during the Time War. He wasn't dead in the first place, because Dalek Caan saved him, the Doctor just didn't know that.

Rose couldn't save her father because that was HER timeline. But Davros was in his own timeline, apart from the Doctor or anyone else. I doubt the Doctor saw his body or was effected by his 'death' as Rose was by her father's.

It's the same thing as in The Fires of Pompeii. The Doctor caused Vesuvius to erupt. He had always caused Vesuvius to erupt. There was no changing that. He was always going to be there to pull the lever that caused the explosion.

Dalek Caan saved Davros during the Time War. He had always saved Davros during the Time War, and always would save Davros during the Time War, weather the Doctor knew it or not. That's why the Reapers didn't show up, the time stream wasn't effected by Davros being there.

I'm a big fan of the 'X goes back in time to stop Y from happening, but
X ends up causing Y to happen in the first place' stories, rather than, say... The Sound of Thunder type plots. It just doesn't make sense to me. Especially in Doctor Who, how he's always going on about fixed points. This is just one of them

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Still...it violates the time lock, too. But I suppose that's the point...so now the Doctor can violate it, too.

And I am surmising that the time line HAS changed...because we just kept being told that it would...and from this point on...Ten is the Valeyard...and he will go back into the time line and try to fix the war...because he did that already.

Ironically, nobody believed him...because he was mad.

Rae

[ladymalchav.livejournal.com]

Oh, wow.

If this is really what Rusty's been leading us toward all this time, I'll take back every bad thing I've ever said about the man. It all makes so much sense! All most too much sense. GodDAMN, this is looking like it could be a bigger disappointment than the end of JE, OR the most amazing long-term plotting in a TV series EVER!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yes!

Now, you, too, know my pain. :snicker:

I don't know if I can reasonably hold out hope that I'm right on this one...but I will say one thing...

If I was bringing the Doctor back...after he left...I would want to address a couple of things about him...

1) His manifesting inner darkness as Seven...and the mythology of who he really was anyway.
2) Half-human on his mother's side.
3) The Valeyard.

The simple fact that RTD opens with the concept that the Doctor has done EXACTLY what the Valeyard said he would do...destroy Gallifrey...makes it very likely that's the story he is telling.

And now...he is in a place where he can answer all those pressing Old School quesitons...he has a half-human on his mother's side Doctor...he has a Doctor who has destroyed his world and can go back through a mind-chopping time lock to save everyone. A Doctor pretty damned committed to saving people. And...we have a way to address the idea of the Doctor as eternally evolving...first part of some other group...then part of the Time Lords...now part of his new home with the humans.

Rae
hoping RTD is bloody brilliant and we all get a pony for Christmas...because really...WHY create this desire in the Doctor to be with Rose Tyler? It served no ultimate purpose if this is how all ends...why have him even start lamenting the normal domestic life?

[maniacalshen.livejournal.com]

The simple fact that RTD opens with the concept that the Doctor has done EXACTLY what the Valeyard said he would do...destroy Gallifrey...makes it very likely that's the story he is telling.

Man, I need to see this Valeyard story. Like, for serious, because it seems kind of important to know not that we're in the latter incarnations of the Doctor.

PS Your theories are fascinating.

[astitchintime-9.livejournal.com]

Rae: and the Doctor as a lonely god is all wrong for the character and the show

ladymalchav: Amen on that, sister.

And a hallelujah from me, if this theory turns out to be the True Story! I mean, if this is at the core of why I've hardly ever able to connect with Ten or to accept his decisions...if he's been on the path toward the Valeyard all along, then I can finally feel validated! :fingers crossed:

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

The Doctor's unhealthiest relationships are not with his friends, but with his enemies. They are the ones who tip him over into fantasies. He thought he could settle down with the Master and tame him, marry him in all but name. He thought he could take the Daleks onto the TARDIS and lead them to a promised land. And he thought he could save Davros.

Yet with his loved ones, he's ruthlessly realistic, or that's the impression we're given. Rose can never be his partner because of the species barrier. Jack can never go back to normaml. Donna can't be saved. There are no second chances with his friends, but he deludes himself that there are with his worst enemies.

Perhaps his deeply conflicted, apparent mercy is actually about control. If the Master's trapped on the TARDIS, or the Daleks are depending on him for their survival, he's won.

Like you, my impression of 10.2 was the precise opposite of the Doctor's. 10.2 was more grounded, more realistic and more pragmatic - and deeply saddened by his parent-self's deluded behaviour. He's looking forward - 10.1 is trapped in the past, going round in endless circles.

And to have a hero in a long-running show who seems incapable of character development is, surely, a recipe for disaster - unless they plan endless spin-offs to distract the fanbase from that core of emptiness.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Right...so either...RTD is planning to send 10 to the reward he really wants...and to go forward with something REALLY that the fanbase already accepts...

And there is the KICKER for me...we already accept this...we just don't know it. We already believe the Eight movie is canon...so the Doctor is "half-human on his mother's side" somehow. We already believe that the Doctor will turn evil one day and destory Gallifrey and then want to go back and fix it by killing himself...or playing virtual god...or something.

And we already accept that the man who plays the Doctor changes...into something new. When 10 says that he doesn't see why he should change...at the beginning...well...that's ANTI-Doctor...isn't it?

Rae

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

I've been doing some research on the Valeyard since I've never seen a single episode of Six's tenure. And a lot of what I've seen actually points to 10.2 being the Valeyard, not 10 proper, especially if one takes the inability to regenerate and wanting to take 6's remaining regenerations from him. And all of those sources point to 10's claim that 10.2 was born of war, committed genocide, yadda. But I completely buy into YOUR theory of 10.2 being born of 10's love for Rose and Donna needing him, plus wanting to keep the universe safe from the Daleks because they were created in such a way that breached the rules of time.

Any chance it could be 10.2 by your reckoning?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Not a single one...and I'll tell you why. Go back to the beginning of JE...just after the regeneration...and see what the Doctor says about it...

"I didn't want to change. Why should I? Look at me."

And we all laugh...and Rose asks if it is still him. Well...the VALEYARD was born between regenerations. Between 12 and 13 orginally...which I would like to remind everyone at this point...could be now. 10 is now...between regenerations. Also...10.2 doesn't do anything bad or evil or wrong. Yes...10 tells us he is all those things...but he's not. Yes...he kills the Daleks...but first...Rose who was filled with love and could see all of time and space...killed the Daleks...was she wrong?

Second...the Daleks are all born out of Davros...who shouldn't even be there...yes...we could justify that he was saved before death...but if when the Doctor tells Rose in Father's Day that he can't go back and save HIS family...he means THAT...then you can't go back and save Davros either. Nor the Daleks made from him...10 is just wrong there. And he's wrong about what he does to Rose...and he's wrong about what he does to Donna. And we are justifying it...because we are used to him being right...and we figure...this is the best RTD can do.

And maybe it is...but it doesn't fit his storyline...to do it this way.

Rae

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

See, now I totally agree with all of the above! So why are those who are suspecting the Valeyard is in play all convinced it's 10.2, not 10? And would RTD be stupid enough to have this many pieces in place and frak this up by using the wrong incarnation of Ten? (nevermind the second question; I suspect I already know, lol)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...first...are there are lot of people besides ME saying this? If so, I feel heartened a bit. :grin:

Second, they are saying it is 10.2 because he has the human body and needs regenerations...but I think they are missing the final piece...WHY it is happening...it is happening because Ten is so very lonely. We are told time and time and time again...that he wants a normal life...and now he's giving it to others by force...BUT we know that he will one day give up on EVER having it.

In fact, RTD tells us this is his giving up on it. RTD says that by giving Rose this man, 10.2, who is exactly like him only BETTER...the Doctor is sealing her away from him forever. Now he knows he can never "find her again." I want everyone who doubts this to look at one special place...where they aren't looking...at Martha's reaction to Rose..."OMG!" she says, "You found her."

Martha never showed any sign that she felt the Doctor was trying to find Rose...and indeed...he DIDN'T find Rose. But...there it was...in Martha, of all people...THIS is what the Doctor wants. He wants to be with Rose...he wants to be where 10.2 is. And he should be...because HE needs her. We all make the assumption that 10 is right and 10.2 needs Rose...but it is 10 that says HE needs her.

I know...I know...I am going to be accused of wishful thinking and told that the story has to move on...but we need to look at where the story is even going...he's at 11 or so...he only goes to 13...yeah...they are going to maybe make it all better...but ALSO...he becomes the Valeyard...that's in canon. You have to stop him dying, stop him becoming the Valeyard...oh...and...explain how he is half-human on his mother's side. And 10.2...does ALL of that for you.

Rae

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

LJ won't let me delete my redundant comment, so just ignore.