It's the End of the World As We Know It...HUMPERDINCKS

[rabid1st]

I don't know if I'm going to spoil you for DW S4 or not here...but I will use a cut just in case I do. I'm actually going to talk about Buffy and Joss Whedon and my views on why they were great.

And I'm going to praise what I personally believe is the BEST BtVS Gen-Vid ever done...

Luminosity & Kamil's "It's the End of the World As We Know It"

I have no idea where to find this vid...so you can all watch it...I recommend a cross-search on google. My copy is very tiny and frayed looking...and I have no permission to post it...but the point that is made in the vid...is the main reason many really smart people considered Joss Whedon a writing god, at one time.

And it is also...ultimately...the reason I was disappointed in him.

If you are familiar with this video...you know that everytime the song does the "End of the World As We Know It" refrain...they show a clip from BtVS that is simply mindblowing. BtVS for 5 seasons...was able to constantly recreate itself by saying..."Take THAT worldview!"

You don't have the hero of a show turn evil so he has to be killed. But Angel went really bad and Buffy kills him. You don't have one of the main good guys become a monster. But Oz is the werewolf they are hunting. You don't duplicate your one of a kind heroine. But Faith came and changed everything. You don't just write in a fake sister and expect the entire audience to go along with it. But Dawn was one of the biggest Humperdincks ever. You don't kill the star of your show. But Buffy leaped from the tower to her death.

Humperdinck, Humperdinck, Humperdinck. Marred only by Joss being unwilling to let go of his need for tragedy and allow for growth of anyone. He started resetting everyone back to their "yellow crayon" days...holding his characters back from any real growth...and that's when the show started to tank. When the Humperdinck no longer mattered to the world that spawned it.

And RTD is standing at one of those points...actually...he gave us a huge Humperdinck when he brought the show back to us. Gallifrey was gone. The Doctor was the one who destroyed it. Humperdinck. Then, he gave us Bad Wolf Rose...doing the impossible...weilding the Time Vortex for good, love and puppies...and making Jack...wrong, fixed and eternal. Humperdinck. It's the end of the World as we know it.

Okay...I AM going to spoil you...so...let's have that break...



















At the end of JE...RTD has given us another one of those world altering things...a part human/part Time Lord Doctor. This is Buffy sharing her power with every good little girl. But ultimately it is as meaningless here, as it is in BtVS because RTD just resets his world back to what it was in the beginning. The time lines all converged at this one point...as if there was some meaning to it...but it was only to defeat the Daleks again...and now...things go on as they always were.

Isn't that what RTD says...this is how it began? So say we all...the Doctor alone in his TARDIS.

Only really...? Is that what DW is all about? That's not what it was in the beginning...it was the Doctor and Susan in the TARDIS. So...RTD has reset his character to New Who beginnings...and that, could spell the end of creativity for this show...or...all of this mindblowing "end of the world as we know it" stuff...could be a Humperdinck. This is the Journey's End for Old School Who...and the REAL New, New, New Doctor...is 10.2.

Or...let's just call him 11...he's a brand new man. Oh, the irony of a show about change and hope...saying the Doctor can't change into something new and more hopeful...and we must go back to the old ways because that's all we should ever aspire to...our sad, lonely, pointless lives. That just seems like a huge Humperdinck to me.



Rae

Comments

I just enjoy....

[susanb03.livejournal.com]

Watching you work these things out... And it's uncanny how close things turn out to be at times :)

Susan

Well...I am happy to entertain...:grin:

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...and I think it is interesting that in a recent interview RTD talked about the game he was playing with the audience. Because it is like a chess game to me...can he continue to delight and surprise me? As a writer, he's only as good as his ability to imagine how things COULD work...and he's been a master of that up to this point. To me, no creative person dismisses things as not possible...we only say...okay, how can I make this mess turn out differently?

I can fix this all very easily...if RTD is saying he can't...then I've out thought him and I win. :grin: Of course, maybe he's just saying he won't...but I still win because a show without creative forward motion...eats itself like the eternal worm.

Rae
admitting sometimes you do reach the end of plausible belief...but...hoping DW isn't there, yet.

You know...the longer I think about it...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...the more I think that I wouldn't really feel good about Who going into self-consuming mode. I want RTD to be full of win, blow my socks off...and then give me a pony for Christmas.

:grin:

Rae

[nisrin]

That makes so so much sense. The ending offered in "Journey's End" is empty because the journey has taken us nowhere. Rather, it took us somewhere but brought us straight back. The Doctor acts like the companions that have come and gone since the War have done nothing to encourage him, enlighten him, or make him better, even if he says otherwise. He is as he was. Talk about self-condemnation when he points at 10.2 to say that HE'S the one that needs changing. If the protagonist cannot change, not only in body but in himself, the story is pointless.

See? This is where it helps to have a creative mind...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...because you can see that the story can be salvaged...and you can also see that if you don't salvage it...it is going to collapse inward and fail. I am often accused of being negative about the chances of success of some project...but I'm not really trying to be negative...I'm just looking at that project from a lot of angles. And here we come up against something which is hard to move beyond...the Doctor giving up on everything. It isn't really Rose...or Donna...or Jack or any of it that is at the heart of why this won't work...it is that if all the Doctor can ever have is pain and loneliness...why are we watching?

People tell me we watch to be entertained...and because we hope that one day things will get better for him. But I have to ask, how? How are things going to get better? He meets someone else...and locks her into a virtual reality? He finds something entertaining to do that involves cybermen and daleks? He...travels? We have no real reason to invest in him emotionally anymore...he's never going to change...and that would be fine if he was a happy child seeing the stars with his mates. But he's a lost, lonely and self-loating person who can be close to nobody...even a woman who is exact equal in her own right.

Sad! And hopefully not all there is.

Rae

Re: See? This is where it helps to have a creative mind...

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Unless...he's sorta saying to the fans, okay this is the template. You customise it. Take it as a starting point and do what you will with it. Write fic. Vid it. Whatever. This isn't the whole truth. Because, face it, there are 10m people out there right now who seem happy with the vanilla version.

We complain when he brings things like Bad Wolf in and then they're left hanging, but maybe he does it just for us to get creative and run with them? I don't know a whole lot about Princess Bride but I know there's this trick where you're meant to e-mail them to get the happy ending scene, but it doesn't lead anywhere. Maybe he's saying, "You write the happy ending."

I'd still rather see him write it, though. He leaves such teasers - Donna's ring, the last we ever see of her, or that pregnancy issue on the Doomsday beach.

Well, I watched Left Turn again

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And am back to being depressed about it all. Because this could be the ending he was heading to all along. It could be that is what he is thinking is that we can write it in our heads. That he feels if he leaves it here...and then brings the Time Lords back...that he's done his job. I thought about that scene where Rose is talking to Donna and Donna yells at her that spectacular line about how Rose is a liar because she said Donna was special.

I thought that was related to the idea of taking everything away from Donna. But Donna said, "It's just this thing on my back." And I thought well...maybe RTD is saying Donna CAN be special in her own life...now that the Doctor has planted the seed of it. And she doesn't just need this thing in her mind to be special. However, then...I think wasn't her life with him real?

I think that it bugs me because I can see how the show can be so much more if they bring the Doctor closer to people, though. I look at it and I don't see this shallow thing of lonely God and his children...children he's made into warriors. Now there is a religious image for you...the army of God.

I look at the pattern of this...and I see that the Ood were so much more when the common man of them was united with the Great Brain. I see the wasp letting Agatha Christie go...being a sign of his humanity...and Donna killing it a sign of hers. I see the Doctor in Midnight, helpless when cut off from humanity. I see Donna helping him push that button in Fire of Pompeii...helping him feel the excitement again about stepping through a door. And I thing, sure, maybe RTD thinks that he's said enough about those things.

He had that lovely scene where everyone was flying the TARDIS. He had Sarah Jane remind him that he has family and Wilf tell him he is always looking up at the stars and thinking of him. Again I shudder at that image...because it is so much like believing there is a sky god. But okay...yeah...this could be it.

And I know we seem to be in the real minority for people unhappy with this. Old School and New School fans have united to say that this is the best we can do for everyone. That basically Russell created Rose and then didn't know what to do with her...so he locked her away in another dimension...until he thought of the spare hand he had hanging around on Jack's desk.

Or maybe...when he cut the Doctor's hand off...he always intended to create this doppleganger for Rose...but why wait so long to do that? Wouldn't it have been better to drop it off after Doomsday? Well...maybe it didn't really dawn on him to use the hand in S2...maybe it only dawned on him after they set the hand on Jack's desk...or put it into the TARDIS or something. Then, he thought...aha...I could make another Doctor...and send him to Rose.

But when he had that thought...in the middle of making the Doctor ache for love of Rose...he didn't think...I could have another Doctor and send THIS one to Rose? Hmmm...that's very odd. But maybe he DID think that and the staff talked him out of it. Then...he came up with making Donna a part Time Lady for a little while...and giving the Hand one heart...so it could REALLY be with Rose. He has Ten mention that aging problem early on...to Sarah Jane.

Technically, he mentions how hard the aging will be on HIM...not her...he said she could spend her whole life with him...but he would go on living and it was a curse. So, technically he said his life is a curse...and it sure does seem to be...but maybe that IS his burden and he bears it stoically. And that's RTD's message for us...self-sacrifice hurts but you can bear it stoically. But still...and all...we are left with "the one adventure he can never have." But maybe that's what we are supposed to get from the doppleganger...the idea that he's having it now...and will somehow be okay in his endlessly grating, not even supposed to exist, life---because he's allowed part of himself to have this normal life.

Rae

If he's going to leave it to us to fill in the gaps

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

Then Ten/Jackie are heading for the 'shag or die' cliche, meaning Tony could be the Doctor's son. Maybe that's why Blue was dumbstruck when Jackie said she'd called him Doctor.

And Donna? She's going to end up being possessed by the Master and taunt the Doctor. "First Harriet Jones, then Donna Noble. When will you learn, Doctor? Reducing women who can stand up to you just leaves an opening for me."

I do like the idea of Blue...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...as a homewrecker. He takes Jackie away from Pete and Rose...and ends up REALLY enjoying his ten-inch parts. I mean...really...I don't get how Rose is supposed to heal him up of his genocidal madness...assuming we even consider killing Daleks who shouldn't exist, genocide.

Rae

homewrecker FTW

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

Supposedly Blue doesn't know when to stop, and everything's new so he'll explore it with enthusiasm. Seeing the confidential kiss demonstrates his passion for things once he gets going. Let's face it, Jackie flirted with Ten in AoG, and if she left Pete to babysit, the Doctor's matchmaking in Doomsday hasn't been a full success.

I can also imagine Blue pouncing on Rose when she initiates sex, and part way through when she's scrambling for contraceptives he asks why they need them. He's only human in terms of ageing, apparently, so his libido will still think coitus=reproduction, and not the recreational aspect humans enjoy so much. That's probably quite hard to take, that Blue thinks she's finally accepted him by wanting joined descendants, when in fact she just wants transient pleasure. It could turn quite nasty, that Rose says she wants the Time Lord and yet craves for him to be human in ways that suit her wants.

I think it is the huge potential for BAD in this

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

That makes me reject it. If we had had more interaction between Blue and Rose...it would have worked for me, I think. I would have disliked it...but I wouldn't think it was socks. Or if we had had a clear indication that Donna was loved and appreciated by her mum...then I wouldn't think her life had been so bad. If maybe Mum had tried to hug Donna and gotten a "what's all this then" from Donna...instead of that final moment when the Doctor tries to say goodbye and gets shallow Donna.

Again...at 47.05 or so...you will see us return to the TARDIS as Blue breaks away to go to Donna. Again he circles away from Rose and gives no indication she matters any more to him than any other companion. But Brown turns to grin at Rose again...and noticing Blue has gone does one of those soft voiced things he does around Rose. He says her name and indicates the lever Blue has abandoned. Rose immediately holds that button, too. It is important to note that BROWN puts Rose close to BLUE on purpose. So where she is standing isn't as important as where she looks. She gives Blue one shy, cute smile...and yeah, I suppose he could find it very fetching...but it's not like the 100 watt smile she gives her Doctor.

Rae

[catyuy.livejournal.com]

You make some really good points in these posts you have here.
BUT I think I have found the true purpose for them.
You just want an excuse to write Humperdink repeatedly.
I have only three things to say to you on that point.
Marcia, Marcia, Marcia.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Drat! You have figured me out. I thought maybe I was pressing the envelope a bit and should just talk about my car breaking down today. :grin:

Rae
if this is multiple post it is because LJ is telling me my password is wrong...when it is not.

[astitchintime-9.livejournal.com]

...smock, smock, smock...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

:grin:

Calvin & Hobbes...priceless!

And yes, smock is a fun word to say, too. Though it is a little close to sock and so I think RTD might not get the proper PONY message if I used it.

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

I think you're forgetting one thing, Rusty needs to find a way to lure us in for the specials. If he loses everyone for the specials, then we've lost a 45 yr old show. So I'm thinking we may get a slight hint in the specials, but not a resolution. I'm think the 2009 Christmas special is the end game for Rusty's story. Maybe then we'll figure out where in the hell he was going with this. As for your comment about RTD having this plan all along. I just don't know. I really think he had planned for the Doctor to go to Rose.Why would we build up for it? JE didn't make sense half way. It was like it was written with a purpose and then suddenly, the last half was re-written. There is also the spoiler pics. Remember the fan that hid under the cars and got all those shots and even a cell phone vid? Those didn't match what we saw. Niether did the paparazzi(sp?) photos of the beach.

1) In the fan spoilers. We saw a scene where Jack,Donna, Rose were wearing blue puffy jackets. When the Doctor is struck Rose covers him with her jacket. She then kisses him and the two are seen rolling about on the street. On top of that, there is an exchange of dialoge between Jack and Donna.Something he says makes her smack him.

2) the Paparzzi photos - Jack and Donna are seen on the beach. Jackie is nowhere in site. HOWEVER, its the blue suit Doctor that leaves on the Tardis. There isn't a sign of the real Doctor, but that had to filmed seperatly since (as fun as it would be) there isn't two Davids. The paparazzi, I understand, was chased off before anything else could be photographed.

SO that said, things don't add up.

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

BTW, I'll be posting the first part of my fic soon. You know the one I dedicated to you? Let me know if you like. Always open to ideas if you want to be apart of it.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh...and to be clear...I really wasn't spoiled and didn't see any of this stuff you are talking about being filmed. But I did hear after Stolen Earth about the kissing on the street...someone told me it was David and Billie goofing around...and for all we know that's all that great beach kiss is...them sort of being uber romantic.

Since they had to reshoot so much on that beach...I think they might have just sent Blue suit back into the TARDIS for a re-set on a scene...but it is also possible that they were sending him into a TARDIS that reappears with regretful Brown inside and he goes to find out what is up.

And I will try to check out your fic...but I don't generally read fan fiction...is it going to be something epic? Being a part of something like a round robin isn't something I'm very good at...you can see how much trouble I have not meddling in the work of a man who is PAID to write. :grin: I do appreciate you dedicating a story to me...and I will try and look at it. But I'm either going to work on my Wild Geese thing...or...more than likely I am going to be working on my original stuff and leaving the fandom behind me.

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

Wellll...its about a child the real Doctor had with Rose but didn't know about. He never had the chance. She is raised in the alt!verse by Rose and 10.2 until the age of 14. Then something happens. She wakes up one morning, 10.2 is dead, her mother is missing, and the Tyler mansion is burned to the ground. Everything she knew about her safe life with her mum and alleged father is gone. She knew she was there, but remembers nothing.Like her memories were taken. For whatever reason she sees a piece of her real father's soul seep out of 10.2 body.(supposidly he contain a part of the real Doctor's soul) She grabs a chameleon watch and quickly grabs it. (I'll explain how she got it) Pete sends her to the world where her real father is only back in time about three weeks after Ten abondoned her mother. So she goes to find her father and looks for answers. There's more, but other people have to post here.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Sounds quite exciting...and I was correct...very long. Where did she get the chameleon watch? Is it in 10.2's blue suit pockets or did he make it? I did wonder how long it's been in the alt!Verse...Jackie had her baby and named him Tony and Mickey's Gran died peaceful like...but Pete is on the "nursery run" and Rose hasn't aged too much...so about 3 years I guess.

Anyway...your story sounds great...I just don't know what I'll be doing in the fandom. I'm going on a two week sabbatical Monday and probably will have no internet access. After that, I think I'm pretty well done with Who no matter what happens in canon. I think there is a good chance that RTD fixes what he's done here...because it's gone too dark. But I invested too much of my energy into it...and I don't think I really have much energy left at the moment. Maybe after the break I'll feel differently.

And honestly, truly, nothing personal about your fic...I have read maybe..20 fics in my life...in all fandoms.

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

She finds the watch in 10.2's pocket.

I hope you do at least read some of it. I'll be posting it tomorrow after work. I know you said tomorrow was the day you'd cut it off, but I hope you'll read that much.;)

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

Either way, I do hope you feel better. *hugs

Actually...I am rather counting on the specials

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Acting as a bridge to Moffat's new view of Doctor Who. One thing I have always laid at Moffat's door was this over the top Doctor...the Lonely God figure...but I wonder if that wasn't just Moffat going along with Davies. If we take the general characterization of the Doctor in Empty Child or Blink...he's mostly the Doctor...sort of above it all and yet carry. The uncle figure from Old School...and Moffat doesn't like him crying over girls...he wants him to be sort of above all that. Sexy but unattainable...but only in the library set do we see him portrayed in his godhood...and we all sort of hate that.

But the library is now very close to RTD's end game...whatever it is. And I think we almost have to deal with Time Lords in the 2009 Christmas Special...or with Rose/10.2's child coming back to this universe. If it was me, again...I would have the sky full of Time Ships for our 2009 WHAT? Moment.

I am thinking that the specials really should be RTD and Moffat working to clean up and clarify everything. And if Blue Ten really was photographed going INTO the TARDIS...then there is still a chance the fix is happening. Because...that's what you need here...a body swap. 10.2 needs to swap bodies with 10...then 10.2 can go fix Donna...take the pain away and give her back her memories. He can do this because his connection to her is much stronger than 10's connection to her.

Then...if what you told me about the "specials" companion is true...that makes sense, too. Because we would want to reassure the viewers that 10.2 isn't mad...and he did the right thing...so this person would be like a watcher...able to check him if he goes off the deep end. Once the viewer is convinced that the new half human on his mother's side Doctor really isn't going to destroy the world...you have a happy Christmas episode...and you have Moffat take over...wandering the stars with a new idea for a new age.

Rae

[ruisseau.livejournal.com]

I just caught up on reading your Humperdinck posts. I unfortunately have nothing intelligent to say.

But I do have this:

"I'm not a witch! I'm your wife!"