Humperdinck! DW S4 Spoilers-- ROSE

[rabid1st]

And now...for the first of my Humperdinck posts...see most of you much, much later...:smirk:

This one is about Rose. Rose, a chav from Southwark who got just a little bit above herself, finally has what she always wanted. Let's examine why that assumption gives us the Humperdinck.

Bad Wolf Knows...

...what is going on. I think it always has...probably planned the save all along. See my LJ thoughts in June 8, 2007.

http://rabid1st.livejournal.com/113986.html

At the end of Left Turn, the Bad Wolf sign is everywhere. And the Doctor equates it with the end of the universe. And we the audience are expected, and mostly DO, gloss over the fact that Rose isn't the Bad Wolf anymore...she's an ordinary girl now. He took the power out of her, right? So, where did this warning come from? Rose didn't send it...how could she? Well...from when she HAD the power...right?

So...she was warning the Doctor about something else then...and it was tied into this thing with Donna.

No, no...wait...in the Confidential...RTD explains that it was all just a way to show that Rose was coming back...Rose-y TARDIS...and Bad Wolf...yeah...we've been building to that all year long. Rose coming back...so Bad Wolf is back..to wrap up her story...that was already wrapped...uhm...up?

But she was TRAPPED...? So this ending, where she's trapped is better.

Because before she was trapped without her Doctor to shag and make time babies with and that's just wrong. So...Bad Wolf arranged to get her a second Doctor made? All Rose wants is to shag him and make time babies after all...we've ALL heard her say that!

Uhm...no...wait...we have NEVER heard her say that. Lots of people jumped to that conclusion, I'll admit. Lots of people thought that Martha was the Doctor's "real savior," too.

What Rose said, is..."stuck with you that's okay" and WHEN ASKED...that she would stay with him forever. And that she loved traveling with him. And that he needed her. And that she couldn't stop traveling because the Doctor never would. And when she had all the power in the universe at her disposal, so she could have whatever she wanted...she said, "I want you safe, my Doctor. Protected from the false god."

And we all assumed that she meant that raving Dalek Emperor...but there is another false God in this show, more about him in another post though.

Then, there is Jack. Jack knows Rose put the power into him. But Rose doesn't seem to know that. And the Doctor isn't explaining...fair enough...there are Daleks listening...but still..huge loose end. Was Jack used effectively here in any sense? If not...why DID Bad Wolf Rose put that power into him? If he right in saying he has some purpose...?

If we didn't get the message in 4 years that Rose and the Doctor are perfect for each other...as soon as this episode starts...we learn what we've learned in other dimensions I bet...that Rose is an "accept no substitutes" sort of girl. She wants HER Doctor safe.

Show of hands for everyone who forgot about the Doctor in Turn Left's universe? She tried to reach him there...was running toward him...missed him by THAT much.

But...there ARE Doctor's in other universes. Did they all die? Maybe she just wanted time babies. Oh...no, she said she wanted help. And Ten knows Rose will take no substitutes...before his "soul is revealed" as a dark and scary thing, he casts off his regeneration for her. I mean...how major is that...? She asked him not to regenerate and he did it.

Rose-scoffers concoct some other reason why he might have done that if you want...but the canon text is clear...she asked him not to change and he didn't change.

Her wish is his command. He's said so. But be careful what you wish for. He can never think of what she is to him...he can never express it. "Do you know her?" The Police Inspector asks...and he says, "Know her? She's..."

At 20 minutes into JE...Davros discusses the Doctor with Rose...saying, "So very full of fire, is he not? And to think, you crossed entire universes for him, striding parallel to parallel to find him." The Doctor yelps, "Leave her alone." And we learn that Dalek Caan...has said Rose must be there...she is a part of this. Excuse me...? So she can babysit the new, new, new Doctor? She hardly even adds moral support at this point. All she clearly illustrates is that 10 loves her...time and again we see THAT.

At 21.28...Davros says Caan did more than fly into the time lock...he "saw time. It's infinite complexity and majesty raging through his mind." Remind you of anyone? And..."He saw you, both of you." Did he now? He saw both Rose and the Doctor in the heart of time...? Oh, and he is transcendent...apparently...the member of his species to break from the mold...not a good Wolf at all. And just to remind us of that...Caan spoke to the TARDIS, too. Shut the door on Donna. Boy...Caan should work for Match.com.

About 33 minutes into JE...the Doctor's soul is revealed...it is a pained and twisted and lonely thing. And Rose does not speak to comfort him. Fans of Rose expected her to deny what was being said...but...I think Rose knows what is being said is true. Rose loves the Doctor as he is...but she tells us in Father's Day "I know how sad you are." And she was worried about what kind of man he would become in Dalek...and she has ALWAYS worried about him being "on his own."

So...why does she go along with any of this at the end? Well...she is tasked with healing the Doctor. And her Doctor is leaving her...he has a companion who Rose can see is his intellectual equal and who she knows will take care of him. And 10.2 whispers something in her ear. Lots of people justify that whisper...oh, it is better we don't know what he would have said. Hmmm? Is it?

Let's assume this is it. This is the last time we are going to see Rose Tyler. And we've been told this man she's getting is EXACTLY like the Doctor...same memories and everything...well...why not leave her happy? Nine was always fun. 10.2 was fun loving with Donna and everyone else...so...why isn't he happy now? I mean...why isn't he jumping right in to explain how wonderful this all is...instead of waiting to be prompted? Why isn't he nudging her shoulder and telling her it will all be okay...because he's still HIM only better? Why does Donna have to prompt him to explain? Earlier she couldn't shut him up when he was exploring her feelings.

At 13 minutes in...you can see how Rose and the Doctor comfort one another...they stand much closer together than 10.2 and Rose...and they lean into one another. That's because they love one another. They offer real support. 10.2 and Rose might as well be Donna and Rose. But we are expected to write our own beautiful ending for all this...because 10.2 needs a babysitter. Because...he committed genocide on the Daleks? The way 10 would have done on the Racnoss? The Daleks shouldn't even exist...if all we know of time and space is true...they were made from Davros...and Davros is DEAD...but resurrected via temporal manipulation. Shouldn't the reapers...or the fire turned to flames be coming soon?

I'm a real romantic folks. Well...I say a romantic...what I mean is an idealist. And when I say idealist...I mean...obsessive.

But...still, if what I'm being asked to believe is that Rose was striding across time and worlds and bringing Donna and the Doctor to their appointed place. And Caan was seeing her and the Doctor in the heart of time and using all of his power to manipulate this union of human and Time Lord to stop Davros, who CAAN brought back...and it all ends up being about Rose getting a good shag...well...I have to stop looking down my nose at Barbara Cartland...especially since it looks like Rose won't even get a good shag in this book.

This is a Humperdinck because like the Princess Bride wasn't a Princess or a Bride...Rose isn't motivated by normal life...she is motivated by protecting her Doctor. And even if we say that 10.2 needs her...10 still needs her, too...and by the look of him...he needs her a lot more than 10.2 ever will.



Rae

Comments

[catyuy.livejournal.com]

One thing.
I thnik Caan might have gone all 'Cassandra' after he brought back Davros.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

OH...me too. And nobody listened to him.

The Doctor's rage was called "the fire"...and after that...Caan said..."And the fire becomes a flame and the flame burns through everything." And he also said..."One will still die."

And finally...Caan knew that the Daleks must be killed...and so did 10.2. 10.2 knew that the prophecy must be fulfilled. Because 10.2...is the Doctor. I don't know what 10 is anymore...oh, yes, I do...the Bad Wolf told us.

Rae

[catyuy.livejournal.com]

One thing I must say is hold out hope.
RTD is an evil ba$t@rd but I really do think he has a ten year plan.
Now wouldn't it be kinda cool if he is leaving Doctor who now only to come back in like 5 years in order for us to like him again.
Because you know we will miss him.
That is his EVIL PLOT.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I don't think it is that big of a five year plan...or rather I don't think it is ANOTHER 5-year plan...we are still in the first plan. I think it is about what just happened to the Doctor...denied every ounce of hope...he is going from fire to flame. He is the false god.

Rae
who is VERY hopeful just now.

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

You know what the one thing is that always got me? In Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel, the Doctor venomously tells Mickey and Rose not to mess with anything, that they don't belong there. Then suddenly Doomsday comes and he changes his tune. To this day I still don't get it. We know the Doctor wants to shag Rose, but why won't he take the opportunity when it presents itself?I wonder if it wasn't just Davros that messed him up.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Nope...I think he's been messed up since the war...and Rose was holding him together...but that little taste of Vortex power...got into his head...and he needed Rose Tyler around to check it...then Donna Noble to whack him in the head...and the reason he can't just..."find someone else" as the Old Schoolers would like...is that he's now too far gone.

Rae

[maniacalshen.livejournal.com]

Caan should work for Match.com.

::sporfle::

Love reading your continued musings. Especially the bit about the false god - that's impressive!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Thank you...I do think that all along Rose has been concerned with protecting the man she loves...and that's not what has happened here. She's left him all on his own...but luckily...she's got the good Doctor with her...and they will figure something out...if 10 doesn't get it.

Rae

[fidesangelus.livejournal.com]

LMAO! In the end its all just about shagging. I'm sure that's what RTD wants the kiddies to take away from the show at this point. Yup, it all makes sense if you buy this is how its really going to end. Oh and did you see the pink elephants on parade down on main street?

So obviously I think that your comments are pretty dead on about character objections for plot direction with JE but I really just wanted to bring up again the comparison between Caan and Rose experiencing time and space and I just thought while watching that the warnings of Bad Wolf in Turn Left were put there by Rose as a warning for herself and the Doctor. She created herself but she wouldn't have been limited to experiences only up to the point in TPOW because she had the ability to see all of time and space, including the future and would have seen this coming possibly, no? *sigh* I'm rambling because its late. Long comment short, I enjoyed this Humperdink.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

OH...yes...this is true...she could have warned him about almost anything bad in Time and Space...come to this one moment because she was drawn in to Donna. But...really...it is about 10.2 being formed...isn't it? And why would Bad Wolf want to warn us all about that? Including the Doctor...unless it is the thing that Rose keeps pulling out of her head..."The Darkness is coming." That's sort of what she knows...the knowledge in her head is forbidden, she said...but the darkness is coming.

He sure is...and the Doctor has almost no defenses anymore to stop himself. Oh, I think we have a good Christmas coming. And I think we have three lovely fun episodes after that...where we adjust to 10.2 as the Doctor.

Rae

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

Reading this late and amidst other things, but I've been wondering about this the past week. Apparently Rose's return was foretold, she'd be there as well as the Doctor when Caan and Davros captured him... but why?

She didn't do anything. She skipped all over universes to find her Doctor because she wanted help and to get back to him. She sent messages to the Doctor via screens and flags all over at the end of Turn Left. But then she didn't do anything. None of her actions had an impact on anything that I can recall. Except keeping Ten as Ten.

So... she hopped universes, found Ten, kept him in that body, hung around looking sad and occasionally happy and... what? I'm coming up blank. Why did she need to be there?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yes...it's a Humperdinck...not the REAL end of the story. Because...this doesn't fit. And while you are wrapping your mind around that...work with the whole concept of The Princess Bride...should be that the movie is about Buttercup marrying Prince Humperdinck. So...the Humperdinck...is that the Doctor is always alone...and best when alone...it is the falsehood in the concept of the show itself.

That very falsehood RTD has challenged since S1...that the Doctor is better off on his own. No...no...he's not!

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Right...she wasn't warning him about THIS...I do like the way she always says..."The DARKNESS" is what she's warning him about...and Donna...and then Donna says, "the Stars are going out" and Rose agrees with that. Maybe because she thinks it is connected to the REAL Darkness...and it is...because THIS is the event that percipitates the Doctor's Darkness.

Rae

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

Ya know, I hope you're right, and not even because I can't let go of Rose. I'm actually okay with her not there. I've gotten used to it... unfortunately. It's because I'm just tired of the Doctor getting beaten down to a tiny little thing struggling to find happiness, and then getting beaten some more.

Really, give him some happiness, RTD. Moffet sure as hell won't. I've seen that future and I don't want it. *sigh*

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And see? That's it...right there! Beating the Doctor down...over and over again...or having him be some kind of lofty god figure...neither of those things work for the show long term. Any number of fans will tell you how great that is...because then they can Mary Sue that THEY will save him from his "darkness."

But it is a show people get quite sick of quite quickly...I am frankly amazed it's gone this long...and the ratings...well...5.4 for Moffat's first one...yes...the are up...but Rose was dangled in front of us all year...now all of that is gone...I do wonder why people will show up for Christmas...other than that there is nothing else on telly.

Making this a show where we know that the companions are all going to be heartbroken and the Doctor is always going to be weighted down with angst and then shot by a Dalek...isn't the way to retain viewership. But it might be a way to introduce a new (yet really canon supported) concept of the Doctor.

10.2 is well...he's a brand new man...half-human on his mother's side...and speaks to the concept of "The Other" who the Doctor was made from...before this. It's like it comes full circle to this point...and 10.2 is the new age, post-Gallifrey...spends his time with Earth Girls...Doctor...and just like Donna...he's not THAT interested in sex. Oh...she'd take a hug now and again though...but mostly...it was let go of her waist, spaceboy!

Rae

[rjrog77.livejournal.com]

It's because I'm just tired of the Doctor getting beaten down to a tiny little thing struggling to find happiness, and then getting beaten some more.

Word.

(This in many ways explains why I am struggling so much with the concept of Ten v2.0 – whenever I think of him, I see another broken-hearted man in a brown suit standing in the TARDIS all alone, and it hurts.)

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

Everything you have said makes sense and I hope it'll all go this way before RTD leaves, because I can't see Moffat wanting to carry on with an RTD masterplan after he is gone.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Exactly...really...RTD needs to play out his plan...and leave the Doctor in good shape for the future. People have seen the Moffat Doctor...and he is a lonely God, too...but that sort of thing can be conveyed by RTD without "touching a word of his scripts." You just tell Moffat what you want..."I want to introduce this dashing new character...Jack...and I want him to be mysterious and amazing and like a sexy young Doctor for Rose...and the Doctor should be visibly jealous of him." Or...for GitF..."Now, give me the female equivalent of that...the woman the Doctor would find irresistable." --Moffat got that episode a bit wrong...but I'm not sure now that he got River's bit wrong...I was thinking her Doctor sounded frightful all along.

Rae

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

but I'm not sure now that he got River's bit wrong...I was thinking her Doctor sounded frightful all along.

Absolutely. That whole snapping bit just felt so wrong for him, considering the circumstances. It felt like too much, like him flying with the angels at Christmas. He isn't that kind of Doctor yet, but he's getting there, fast, and that's just scary.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Throughout JE - I don't care what anybody says, or what flirty screencaps they put up - the 10/R relationship was presented at a fundamentally different level from the 10.2/R one. Rose saw 10 tortured by Davros. I cannot believe she'd willingly desert him so quickly after that - because she knows that even if 10.2 was a complete copy at the point of regeneration, that's a fundamental divergence already. 10 had to go through that ordeal, 10.2 did not.

The Bad Wolf storyline has been left completely hanging, barely mentioned in fact. One of many unexplained things is how Alt!Pete knew the precise moment to rescue Rose from the Void in "Doomsday". To think we've heard the last of that beggars belief.

And you're right - it doesn't make sense for Rose to settle for nothing more than a conventional future with Rose. As far back as AoL/WW3 in S1 she was insisting (to the police, not just anybody!) that there were far more important issues than sex in her relationship with the Doctor.

Then there's Jack. His immortality isn't just a plot device - it blows a hole right through the Doctor's argument that he can't be with Rose because she'll die and he won't. Jack is immortal but he's given himself totally to a relationship with Ianto, which is being presented, very clearly, as a serious relationship and not just a sexual one. Jack loves Ianto. He's said so openly in Torchwood.

So where does that leave the Doctor? As an emotional coward, indisputably.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Continuing my Princess Bride analogy...I will say this about Jack...

In the "Have fun storming the castle scene" of JE...I just want to say, "If only we had a wheelbarrow."

Oh...you HAVE a wheelbarrow? Well, why didn't you list it among our assets to begin with? Jack has this unlimited source of Bad Wolf power in him...and it goes nowhere in the story. It doesn't even get the nod that it might somewhere with..."You resurrected Jack and now he just keeps coming back" and Rose is all..."HEY!?"

Jack is the wheelbarrow...why is he never counted among out assets?

As for saying he loves Ianto...the very excuse that people will give us...is that "Well, Jack is human." And so...the human Doctor is better for Rose. Ah...sure...but he's not BETTER for US...or the universe? The parallel with Jack can't be ignored because of Utopia...an RTD episode...where all of this was discussed. But none of it is mentioned here.

Rae

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

To return to the concept of the Doctor (original that is, not 10.2) as the relic of a bygone age ties in perfectly with a humanist worldview, and has been carefully set up throughout the whole of New Who and S4 in particular.

The Whoniverse as it stands is untenable. RTD has made it so by constantly self-referencing his own work, particularly in the Christmas specials, and introducing the Harriet Jones issue. Harriet Jones knows what the Doctor cannot yet admit; that the Doctor has to stop being the saviour of humanity and become an enabler, inspiring us to find our own solutions. Otherwise he will burn out and we'll be left with nothing, which was indeed what happened in the nightmare world depicted in "Turn Left".

Now, to look at the way this develops throughout S4.

PIC - Donna and the Doctor work in parallel and are almost equally capable. The Doctor would have been unable to save humanity without her help.

FOP - Donna gets an insight into the inner life of the Lonely God and willingly accepts joint responsibility for its more challenging aspects - but she also understands that humanity cannot bear a completely bleak outcome, and insists that someone is saved. She does not stop at the bigger picture.

POTD - The Doctor doesn't sort this one out. The humans on the ground do it. And Donna isn't ashamed to recognise her own limitations, which is more than can usually be said for him.

TSS/TPS - The Doctor is forced to confront his ambivalence about the use of force. Donna's loyalty is challenged by Martha but she comes through. In the end, the Doctor offers himself as a sacrifice but his place is taken by a human being.

TDD - Donna learns about the Doctor's past and how it's damaged him. The whole job description of a Time Lord is debated and even the Doctor agrees that it's more than genetic - it's about shared suffering.

SITL/FOTD - In some ways, the most interesting story of S4. River Song makes a fully informed choice to sacrifice her life for the greater good. She knows the Doctor well enough to physically restrain him so he can't prevent her from doing so. But he still has the last word and leaves her with an illusory existence she never wanted. He violates her nature every bit as much as he will shortly violate Donna's.

M - We see that without the restraining influence of companions the Doctor is very vulnerable, and his character flaws are ruthlessly exposed. The way he can't resist the challenge of taking control of the situation puts everyone at risk, himself included. A human being has to die to resolve things.

TL - It isn't the Doctor's death that causes the nightmare scenario. It is Donna's initial weakness, her refusal to confront her mother's demands and take responsibility for her destiny. Through Rose this is corrected and order is restored by Donna's death, in that universe at least.

And the finale - well, we could go on and on - but the most powerful positive image we are left with is the combined crew of the TARDIS working together, and the most negative one (for me at least) is Donna being, basically, punished for hubris, and screaming to retain her indentity.

Whew. Gotta go and do RL stuff now.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

See? RTD really CAN write!

:grin:

People mock him because...well...maybe, like me, he's a hack at the melodrama...I'm not a great literary writer and I go over the top all the time...but he has it where it counts: in concept, in imagination. RTD thinks BIG...then tries to go BIGGER. At least...that's what I believe...from what I've seen.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I do think it is interesting that you and I see that potential...because you have that writer's gift, too. That...insight into how it all works...and imagination. Which is really what is lacking in most people that try to review...they go...

"But Rose can't come back because...that's a dead end story and Billie is leaving."

And they don't go..."Well, Rose can't come back...because that's a dead end story...and no Billie...which means...we need to think of something that makes this work without Rose coming back."

Ideas bloom out of problems if you have a creative mind.

Rae

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

Let's assume this is it. This is the last time we are going to see Rose Tyler. And we've been told this man she's getting is EXACTLY like the Doctor...same memories and everything...well...why not leave her happy? Nine was always fun. 10.2 was fun loving with Donna and everyone else...so...why isn't he happy now? I mean...why isn't he jumping right in to explain how wonderful this all is...instead of waiting to be prompted? Why isn't he nudging her shoulder and telling her it will all be okay...because he's still HIM only better? Why does Donna have to prompt him to explain? Earlier she couldn't shut him up when he was exploring her feelings.

This bugged me too. And when he takes her hand, she actually pulls away from him a bit, just leans away some. And he's so quiet and subdued. I asked about this on my journal and most answered with some form of: because he's deferring to Ten.

Doesn't mean he has to stay quiet and bow to the alpha male. He's still Ten, with bits of Donna in him, that's an ADD nightmare waiting to happen, as we saw. Eh. I'm just annoyed by it all. I'm not torn up about it, just... annoyed.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

He's deferring to 10?

Most didn't mention that 10 has stolen HIS identity, too? 10 has created this new earthbound life for a being that may want Rose...but if he has any Donna in him...is thrilled by exploration. He gave everyone socks for Christmas...what HE thought was good for them...not what any of them wanted.

Rae

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Bad wolf is still there, waiting for her time. However, I'm afraid Moffat will never play this card.
In fanon, Rose stays with Ten II until the end and then comes back to our world to be with her Alien!Doctor.
*long life to Barbara Cartland's books and their happy endings!*

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

So...why does she go along with any of this at the end? Well...she is tasked with healing the Doctor. And her Doctor is leaving her...he has a companion who Rose can see is his intellectual equal and who she knows will take care of him. And 10.2 whispers something in her ear. Lots of people justify that whisper...oh, it is better we don't know what he would have said. Hmmm? Is it?

One thing that just occurred to me--my thought has been that Ten already knew what was going on with Donna well before we see the tic. And putting Rose away from him (beyond punishing himself for being a bad bad man who turns the people he likes best into weapons) also allows him to take action with Donna with impunity. I think you've said (and I've agreed) that all of the other companions assume he's back to being on a grand adventure with his lost Rose. And they went home first so they couldn't stop him from leaving her behind. But your statement also makes it obvious that Rose is thinking the same of Ten and Donna, ie, they're off having their grand adventure and all is right with their world. If there is ANYONE who has seen first hand that Donna would rather die that give up on being special, it's Rose Tyler, Defender of the Earth. Ten is rejecting his human conscience.

And that begs the question: when Rose asked if Ten was really Ten when he quasi-regenerated, he said he was. Maybe he even believed he was. We certainly all did at the time. But is he?

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

I actually saw someone write in their journal (in an otherwise lovely review) that RTD had left and it was SM's show now. But that just isn't true. It's been officially confirmed that there'll be four 1 hour specials, two written by RTD alone and two co-written by him. Plus, they've already recorded an insert for the Proms and there's likely to be something for CiN.

Add that up and it's almost as much RTD input as a regular series of DW. The party's not over until the fat gay man stops singing.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

There is one person who suspects 10 of turning at this point...and it's 10.2. And we see him suspect it, too. He suspects it when 10 announces they are heading for Bad Wolf Bay. There is this...what I now believe is a brilliant shot of 10.2...looking very concerned. Not panicky and raging as 10 would be...but concerned. And he continues to look unhappy and thoughtful on the beach. THAT to me...is the Doctor.

And yes...I think I should be happy for Rose then...to be getting the healthier man...but is that the BEST thing for the show at large.

I think...10.2...told Rose to kiss him...out of calculation...he knows how much that will rankle...because he clearly remembers being NINE...and the way NINE got when Jack or Mickey were making off with Rose.

And Rose has that one hesitant moment before she grabs him by the lapels, too. Where she seems to consider whatever he told her. No matter how you look at it...that isn't a "OMG! You are my Doctor" kiss.

And yes...I think that is where he changed. I do think that he is the man Rose loves...more than 10.2 is. I think, however, that is was a bit of foreshadowing.

I see I am leaving my 10.2 Humperdinck thoughts all over the place here. I do have an entry planned. I should wait until then...or I'll miss something.

Rae

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

I was rewatching Midnight last night for the first time since the finale. And I saw some things there that really change in the context of the series taken as a whole. Ten on his own totally cannot deal with humanity at their worst. He goes from charming to egomaniac and that's before the entity got inside. Ten greatly feared losing his voice/identity. Ten in his rambling to Not!Mrs.Sylvestrie brought up "The Medusa Cascade" before bringing up "Rose Tyler Martha Jones Donna Noble TARDIS!" Donna echoed his "Multo bene" which he tells her "Don't. No really. Don't." And THEN we see her say the same thing manic mid-Tic as the DoctorDonna. And lest we forget, RTD penned this episode as part of his final four of series four. At first, I saw this episode as placed there to out-Moffat Moffat. But now I am wondering if there's more to it than that and how much of this plays into being one of the last four episodes foreshawdowing-wise.

I like your spec on what we saw between Rose/10.2. It makes narrative sense, and certainly explains why they didn't use the Confidential kiss. Hell, I think the fact that they explictly showed us they HAD different version of the kiss and did not use it is telling us something.

I keep going back to Rose asking if Ten is really Ten. And I keep flashing back to Spike/Buffy just shy of the beginning of their sexual relationship: "You came back wrong."

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Right! I think we got the DOCTOR back wrong...what he did even tells us...in the course of canon. I mean...after the regeneration we are supposed to let go of the Old Doctor and embrace the new man. But we, the audience, like Rose are in love with the old Doctor and just blow off 10.2 saying..."I am the Doctor." When Donna tells him to "wait for the Doctor" he says..."I am the Doctor" in a confused voice. This is to assure us that his going to Rose is a good thing...but I think he's sort of concerned about his darker half.

And yes...I think neither Doctor really likes the idea of the other one...but 10.2 has a bigger problem...he's got a human body...and so...this exile...may sit badly with him...and he may wonder about his 10 motives...but he's not voicing his desire to switch places. Because...how could he? Without taking choice away from 10?

I think 10.2 is giving 10 what 10 didn't give anyone else...a second chance...the opportunity to have a free say in what happens.

Rae

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

I may come back for a more detailed pass, but for now...

Why does Donna have to prompt him to explain? Earlier she couldn't shut him up when he was exploring her feelings.

I think it was part Time Lord of not being allowed to express your feelings and part human of knowing that saying something will get thrown back at you. I say this, because when Davros is taunting Brown Ten that he can do what he likes with Rose, Rose doesn't say anything. I think part of that is because Rose knows Davros would manipulate her words to hurt the Doctor. When Blue Ten and Donna are exchanging quips on the TARDIS, Donna resorts to silent rubberneck chicken movements because she knows anything she says Blue Ten will throw back at her. It's something the Doctor lacked in Midnight. It's something River lacked as well, the ability to write things down silently and leaf it in the forbidden book, instead of saying out loud things detrimental to the time line.

On that thread, Caan is insane. He's seen all that is, all that was, all that could be. But not having a Time Lord mind has made him mental. The fact he brought the Daleks back only to want them destroyed is insane. He's got it in his head that this is the only way things can be. River pleaded that in her death chair, because she wanted a particular outcome to her design, even though the Doctor said time isn't fixed.

Caan became like the enemy. Unfortunately, so did Brown Ten. He's got it into his head that this is how things have got to be, regardless of individual freedom of others. He's sealed off all his ties to humanity.

and I hit 'submit' and remember something

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

Why does Donna have to prompt him to explain?

When Brown Ten asked why he and Blue didn't figure out how to save the day, Donna says the 'other two' lack that gut instinct that goes hand in hand with planet Earth. This lack of gut instinct may partly be why Blue Ten didn't initiate the kiss on Bad Wolf Bay, and why he had to be prompted.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yes...I think because he's divided...his GUT instinct is in Donna. But if she dies...it could revert to him...and then she would be with him...traveling the stars.

I had thought we would record all of our final resolution on the beach...but with that comment...I think the TARDIS will reappear on the beach...possibly with the dying Donna onboard...then the exchanges will happen inside it.

That means we do need Jack...to make this happen. The connection to Rose and the TARDIS inside him...should be enough when combined with the rift...to get a safe landing on that beach and be pulled back.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Exactly, Biscuit...if I may go all Princess Bride on you here...this is the moment when the title of the show is made manifest. Doctor Who? Has always been our question and now we do have 2 answers. And one seems like the RIGHT one...of course...brown suit is the Doctor...anything he says is true...but the FANBASE...will tell you that after the regeneration...you must "let go" of the old Doctor and move on.

Rose Tyler loves the old Doctor...and sure...she should have him...but we shouldn't hold onto him when there is a brand, new man in town. 10.2 could very well be a new 11...a new path for 10...if he had regenerative ability...those very regenerative ability that we are told in canon the Valeyard was going to steal for himself. So...if the middle energy IS what 10.2 is now...he COULD take 10's body and regenerative energy. THAT was the Valeyard's plan.

And...also...on the Princess Bride theme...the Dread Pirate Roberts...is a title passed on from one person to another. Oh, I could go on all day about the similarities with this right now...I only hope that RTD knows what legendary love story to draw his themes from to make the show better than it ever was.

And you know what...I can readily see Moffat going along with all this...one thing that separates Moffat from RTD...is RTD is very Old School...he's trotted out every monster we Old School fans love...and the only truly meaningful foe he's left unaddressed is the very one you have to address as you head for regeneration 12...the enemy withing...the false God...the Valeyard.

As I've said...I hope he's been heading there all along.

Then the three remaining questions of Old School will be solved.

1) Does the Doctor ever return to Susan...or have some deeper relationship with a companion?
2) Does the Valeyard return and destroy him?
3) What makes Earth so special? Is he really half-human on his mother's side? <<---personally I think the solution to THAT in 10.2 is fantastic...because he now has a bit of human consciousness in him...bleeding through as he said.

You know...lots of people compare what happened to Agatha Christie as a direct foreshadowing of what happened to Donna. And I think from the Doctor's viewpoint it is...he let her go...at the very end...and she lost her memories rather than die. But that makes the Doctor the wasp...now. And you wonder about how the rage applies. And Donna chose to kill the wasp...just like 10.2...because it had to be done. The Doctor is all...NO...you did the wrong thing. But she really didn't...just like 10.2 didn't do the wrong thing when he killed those Daleks.

Rae

you replied before I could add more so I'll carry on anyway :)

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

I had some more thoughts about Blue Ten's behaviour. He behaves exactly the way Brown Ten did in the Christmas Invasion. At first you can't shut him up, until he slips into a coma (shh!). Then he saves the day by giving the bad guy 'no second chances.' At the end, he's nervous about asking Rose to carry on travelling with him, in case she rejects him. Blue Ten has more reason to be nervous, because he has no transport that 'travels through time' which convinced Rose at the very beginning. I'm also starting to think that Donna has imprinted on Blue Ten like a mother hen. Even after the rubberneck exchange, Donna does something (like shout HA!) and Blue Ten mimics it. Without Donna, Blue Ten is an orphan of sorts, which is how Nine first came to Rose.

I don't think I've ever seen the Princess Bride. I have heard it said that last year's finale was the Superman movie and this year's finale was Superman II. I've not seen a lot of Old School, either, so addressing 40 year old questions may sate some viewers. But RTD said himself he gives exposition because younger viewers won't remember stuff even from New Who. It feels disjointed to me as someone in-between these memory spans. I fear RTD is becoming like Moffat: Sacrificing continuity for the sake of a brilliant idea. Well, someone else's brilliant idea at least, because Moffat this year was bad plagiarism of the Time Traveller's Wife and you say RTD is following the Princess Bride.

At the moment, I think Brown Ten is fed up of things being out of his control, and being dictated by others. Blue Ten did what Harriet Jones did in TCI: Destroyed the threat even if they weren't threatening at the time. Caan brought him and Donna together, and Blue Ten was picking up cues from Donna. Rose ripped holes in the Universe to reach him. Even Bad Wolf is beyond the Doctor's control, and it's ripping his hearts out. Brown Ten is fed up of being hurt and thus wants to control everything around him, and put as much distance as possible between those who would stop him.

I had an idea about Bad Wolf. I know RTD said that you think Bad Wolf you think Rose. I remember Moffat saying that Ten and Reinette 'danced' but I decided based on the show not the voice from above as to what was happening. My current theory about Bad Wolf when the Doctor's around is Daleks. The link is obvious in season one. Bad Wolf - Rose destroying the Emperor - is only mentioned in Doomsday when facing Daleks in season two. In season three (blink and you'll miss it), Bad Wolf is written in foreign characters in the background in Gridlock, and the following episode there are Daleks. In season four, this use of Bad Wolf as a warning is used again, because it's written in foreign characters again, and the next episode there are Daleks. So Bad Wolf may have begun with Rose, but the message is a warning to the Doctor about Daleks. The Doctor may be stupid enough to think that keeping Rose away means he won't have to face committing genocide on the same species for the fourth time.

Well...I almost agree...about the Daleks

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I think the Daleks trigger it because it starts with them...but it goes further back...into the Valeyard. I think it has always been about the WAR...and his pain...and how that pain needs to be overcome. I think Rose saw the Doctor's path clearly when she was seeing all of time and space...just like Caan saw it clearly...Caan is Cassandra...raving truths...but nobody is understanding them. Except...maybe 10.2.

The Doctor/Dalek battle is what destroyed Gallifrey in the first place...and this therefore, is what the Valeyard warned would happen. Then..the Doctor is about to be shot dead by the Daleks in PotW...when Rose arrives and names herself "The Bad Wolf." And it always struck me...that BAD Wolf...is also LONE WOLF.

RTD has told us that he picked up the term by accident (so it isn't related to the Wolves in Old School, I suppose)...and liked it because of it sounding very Grimes Fairytale-ish...the Big, Bad Wolf. But I'm not sure that the words are not a warning to bring her there...as she says...to bring her to that moment...when the Doctor took that power from her.

My feeling...a very strong feeling...is that we are all looking at Doctor Who through our personal fandom bias...and RTD knows that about us. He knows that lots of the fanbase think all Rose wants is someone to shag...the Rose-haters were all..."Oh, this should please the Rose fans, she got what she always wanted." Only...Rose fans know she didn't.

This should please the Donna fans...she got what she wanted...a special moment. Only the Donna-fans are going..."No, she wants to be special and travel with him."

Doctor fans, like myself, are thinking...wait...he's going to be sad and alone forever? What kind of show is that? Yet, there are people going "Oh, this is good, he's going to be a REAL god. He's going to be dark and alone and all powerful."

A man all alone in a box...just the way it should be! Really? Because he never was a man alone in a box...there is only two places that happened in Old School and both of those were against his will.


Rae

imitation is flattery and all that

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

is that we are all looking at Doctor Who through our personal fandom bias...and RTD knows that about us.

There's a part of me that thinks RTD had a look at fandom and tried to write an ending that wasn't plagiarism... :D I looked at your entry and decided something was worth repeating:



Careful what you wish for.

Rose perhaps wasn't as good at keeping things to herself as I've said above. When the Doctor's dying, she asks him not to change, so he gave her the result of casting off his regeneration for her. In his mind, Rose is very fond of Ten's body. By the end of the episode, he gives her a duplicate of himself that is physically incapable of changing. That is what she wished for.

There's also a marked change in how Brown and Rose interact after Davros reveals his soul and Blue Ten turns up. Gone is the hand holding and no concept of personal space. She gets a group hug from him with Martha... and that's it. Rose stands next to Jackie, not the Doctors on the Crucible. SJS gets more body contact than anyone else pre-flight on the TARDIS, and Rose is leaning away from Brown Ten in flight.

Post flight, Blue goes for SJS, Brown goes for Donna, Jackie/Jack, then SJS/Mickey, SJS/Jack, still Brown/Donna, we see Rose/Martha behind them. Brown/Donna goes for Rose/Martha, but Donna leaves Rose/Martha/Brown to make Donna/Jack, then Jackie/Rose.

For goodbyes, SJS offers the hug, not Brown; Brown waves goodbye first. I can't get a good cap, but Rose and Blue are laughing in the TARDIS. It reminds me of Doomdsday when Ten is enthusiastically describing his plan and everyone gets caught up in the enthusiasm. Only before Rose really realises, she's in a parallel universe with her family. On Bad Wolf Bay in JE, Rose follows Blue out of the TARDIS, when she hadn't followed Brown for the goodbyes to everyone else.

So, it is possible to see that Brown Ten believed Rose wanted Blue before she kissed him.

I can see him thinking that perhaps...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

There are two moments when Rose does show an interesting in Blue Ten. That moment when Brown comes back into the TARDIS...and Blue seems to be chatting up Rose. Rose looks quite happy there...and so does Blue...but it could well be that they are both thinking this is the new TARDIS crew...him and Donna, her and the Doctor. And that they are just going to drop her mum off back home and head out.

As for the difference in how Brown and Rose interact after Davros reveals his soul and Blue Ten turns up. Gone is the hand holding and no concept of personal space. No...no it's not gone...look at the moment where they are both at the monitor talking to Torchwood. And they notice the resemblence with Gwen. They are all up in each other's space there and happy together. And the way Rose lets Sarah Jane in...is she lifts her arm welcoming Sarah Jane.

Also during that hugging...did you notice that there is a direct comparision between Brown returning to Rose by edging out Martha...and then we see Donna fling Sarah Jane away from Jack. It is sort of the same thing only more subdued. Blue never hugs Rose...but he does smile knowingly when Brown and Rose are getting all giddy over Gwen. He does that little teeth clicking smile that Brown does when Rose is saying how she built a dimension cannon to come back. It is a knowing look...really.

I love the icon...thank you so much. I'm holding off on putting anything new up...not wanting to spoil the USA audience if I go anywhere. Not that they aren't going to be spoiled about something this big.

I do think you are right...that Brown's attitude changes once his "soul is revealed"...and he withdraws from Rose when he can. He places her hand on a control that has her reaching across Blue...and he leaves them alone together in the TARDIS...and Blue definitely knows something is up when they head for Bad Wolf Bay.

I've been thinking a lot about why Blue goes along with any of this...and it hit me...if he IS the real Doctor...then he would think that Brown should have a choice in his actions. I mean...the solution here is that Brown stop running. And that's his own choice. I feel Blue thinks that Rose kissing him might help percipitate that choice. But it doesn't work. I don't think Blue thought Brown would hurt Donna...or he might have protested. But even that...is a bit out of his hands.

Really...you can't say the way to fix this is for the two of you to die. Both Donna and Brown have to come to that place of their own free will. So Blue is silent and just hoping that he isn't going to end up imprisoned forever. It is sort of a lesser situation for him...he's human and will age and die...and he's stuck with Rose which isn't so bad...so reallly...he's just concerned about the Doctor and Donna and what happens to them.

I think Brown has always believed that everyone wants a "normal life" because that's what HE wants and can never have. He's been pretty darned consistent in giving that life to everyone if he can. But this time it seems very much like square-pegs in round holes because the real solution has already been suggested.

Brown would be happy to rest...die...if he could have a normal life. Even in Army of Ghosts he says that it would be horrific to call your loved ones back to this life if they'd found peace. And in School Reunion he says he considers his endless life a curse. Blue...would be happy to see the universe and travel, I imagine...since he seemed full of happy life before he found out he was going to be locked up. Rose...would be happy if she knew that her Doctor was safe and happy. Donna would be happy if she had all her memories...though she would die soon after.

Rae

And once more...OMG!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

You have never seen the Princess Bride?

Get thee to a video store near you...or contact netflix...or something.

I'm not saying RTD was retooling the Princess Bride at all. The Princess Bride is a primer on storytelling...it is a book that shows interaction between the storyteller and the audience. And it was made into this perfect movie that does the same thing...a Grandfather reads the book to his Grandson...and all of the little moments where the audience might have a remark are illuminated...then...in addition to THAT...which is great in and of itself...the writer also shows exactly how to tell the perfect story...by presenting all the perfect story elements.

It is a masterpiece...truthfully. Just for what it tells us about fairytales and how to write them so they endure.

I'm saying that RTD knows how to do that...write a story that endures. This ending won't...but a proper ending AFTER this ending...would.

The Princess Bride...is Buttercup...she is to marry...the Prince (obviously...it's in the title)...so the story appears to end with her married to Prince Humperdinck. But the audience goes..."Wait...WHAT?" I won't tell you why or anything...because you should see the movie. But that's why I refer to JE as "The Humperdinck"...because it appears to be the end...and is even the END that the name of the show implies...and yet...it makes those who were paying attention to the story go..."Wait...what?"

Rae

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Rose had to go because she was his light, his "shinning star" (to quote Murray Gold) The werewolf she was burning like a sun. She's his redemption.
However, look at where the show is going. Since Rose is gone, the Doctor has been darker and darker. His god complex is growing series after series.
If she had stayed, Rose would have saved him ... and so, all this travel to the dark side would have been useless(and I do believe Moffat wants to (re)introduce to Valeyard) or she would have been killed... and anyway, this would have lead us to Dark Vader... err, sorry, I meant the Valeyard... forever!
I think that Rose staying behind will be part of the Valyard's defeat.
Ten II is part Time Lord and Bad Wolf is still part of Rose (I think). I always thought her badwolfishness would have helped her to stay with the Doctor forever, but then, maybe, this will help her to become a new Eve, the mother of the new Time Lords...
I see River using his name to stop him but Rose giving him hope and redemption once again through her children.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I think that is exactly right...Rose is his light...so she had to go so the darkness can manifest...and boy, did it manifest. Personally, I hope that the show isn't going to give us a full series of the Valeyard...I would cringe at 3 more episodes of him. But I think this debate we are all having in the fandom...where we tell ourselves it is hard cheese for now but we can deal with it.

My hope is that the Doctor turns away from this choice and what we have here is finally the opening of his eyes to what he's become...because this all HAS to be painful to him. How much more pain will he have to endure? Or are we saying that he NEVER gets the message?

And now...I'm really wondering about Bilius...the man from Torchwood who let the destroyer loose on Jack. Because if Jack is the one that can stop it all...then that works for me...but now I think we are looking at a full 5 episodes on Torchwood and 4 on DW...and I really don't want that for the series...because I think RTD needs to make this all better before he goes.

I don't think he should leave anything in Moffat's hands but the Doctor.

Rae