The Light Dawns...or Fool Me Twice...DW S4 Episode 13 spoilers

[rabid1st]

Okay...sometimes it takes me a bit of time...and sleep...before I see there is another piece of the puzzle under the sofa...

I have hope. Genuine, text-based hope...not that make-do in a pinch type that's been going around lately. :twinkle:

I had this LJ entry way back...that talked about all the ins and outs of Time Lord Reproduction http://rabid1st.livejournal.com/158681.html
(it is long...only look if you don't remember it)and some of that came to pass...as did my HAND projection idea.

But who remembers the day I said Donna would die? After the Sontaran Mess...when she actually faced death on that ship...and then had a talk at the table with her grandpa. Grandpa was upset, too upset. I thought Donna had told him she was dying of something...cancer maybe.

But...what if she told her beloved Grandpa...what 10.2 and Rose know...that she felt like NOTHING before and was more than willing to die for a chance to travel the stars. THAT would explain her reaction and her grandpa's reaction perfectly. AND what Grandpa says..."You go with that Doctor and see the stars." Grandpa was being brave...knowing his sweet girl might die. If you go back and watch Journey's End...he almost says something to the Doctor as the Doctor turns to leave.

Hope part 2...the Daleks were all made from Davros...so they shouldn't exist...because Davros came back through the Time Lock after death...so 10.2 is RIGHT...as a Time Lord you can't let them live...even if you could love a Dalek and make him better.

Hope part 3...your song is coming to an end...and one will die...neither thing really happened...unless we think River Song going into the machine ended her...it wasn't about her.

Donna has to die. Sorry, but I think Wilf and the Doctor know she does. And the Doctor's song of hope has ended...what song is he singing now, I wonder?

Rae

Comments

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

What's the point at which the Doctor could become the Valeyard? Is it between the eleventh and twelth regenerations?

Reason I ask is that DT brought up the point in Confidential that the Doctor may have used up one of his regenerations to produce Clone/Alt/Whatever Doctor - in which case he'll be going from 11 to 12 next time around.

[astitchintime-9.livejournal.com]

Valeyard info:
BBC
Wiki
DWWorld
Wikia
other

(These are all from the open tabs in my browser! Can you tell that I've been reading up?)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Hey! Did you notice (you probably did) that the Hinton novel about the Valeyard was rejected by the BBC...after Hinton's death...in 2006.

If we are right...the BBC would reject any novel about the Valeyard because RTD meant to address it all along.

And really...it IS the story to address this late in the game. RTD had to know he was losing Chris after one year...so he's looking at the TENTH Doctor...or maybe the Eleventh...because Ten says he's regnerated "half-a-dozen times" since you left me to Sarah Jane...but...I always went...WAIT...what about the Five Doctors.

Still...I think that could be reaching at this point...as we might have 10.2 as the 11th regeneration...and 12 is coming up...and then...VALEYARD!

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

It is 12 to 13...however...if he meets another version of himself...it would probably be 12...and not 13...so if he needs to see himself, having crossed the line...then...he would see it in 12.

He's the Valeyard...let me count the ways...seriously...I have been counting them...all of the things that only slightly troubled me because he was with his beloved Rose...are suddenly making me wince. The warning signs have been there from the beginning...I would prefer that it wasn't caused by his exposure to the Vortex...but it might well have started there.

Right now...Ten can still justify every one of his actions...we, the audience, know that because of how WE have justified them.

But I feel...especially given I know the monster in the Christmas special...that there is an action coming none of us will be able to justify. I don't know if you know this...it was leaked very early...but let me ask you...just in case...

Is it really TRUE that saving a person's life is worth ANY sacrifice of who they are?

Rae

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's scary. I was about to say that's way too dark for a Christmas special, but then I remembered that every one of them has been dark - yes, even TCI, because we had the betrayal of Harriet Jones - and they get progressively darker. You don't get much darker than a disaster movie where only five people make it and most of them don't deserve to live.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Not only that...if you take this idea and go backward...then you would see that like the threads in all of RTD's work...it was there to be pulled in as we go along. Ten says, "No second chances. I'm that sort of a man." And if you are Old School...you feel this slight shiver behind your cheer...because THE Doctor...not that sort of a man at all. The Doctor is ALL about second chances...isn't he?

And then he proves that even being his friend doesn't give you immunity from his ruthlessness when he takes out Harriett Jones...and there she is in Journey's End...telling us..."And I'm sorry but I think he was wrong about that."

But still...we devoted believers...we think he is right about EVERYTHING...don't we? Even when what he is doing is so obviously NOT what the people involved want him to do...even when he is WRONG...we love him and justify his behavior. I tell you...if THIS is what he is saying about religion...I can certainly get behind him.

If he has the backbone to take this show to transformation...that would be amazing...and most of the "True Believers" will label him a heretic and burn him in fandom effigy of course. But still...it would be said and out there...the Doctor and Humanity need to be one.

Rae

[bananasandroses.livejournal.com]

They’ve been doing a fair amount of stuff – making the Doctor increasingly darker, etc. – that makes me think that the Valeyard is what we have ahead of us.

I’m not sure whether to be happy or not about the fact that it’s Moffat who is likely to be in charge of that, when/if it comes to pass.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I actually DON'T think it will be Moffat. It will be RTD before he goes. I think he was heading there all along...and will probably open that can of worms at Christmas.

Because he really can't have the Doctor get much darker than this...I think that what we will have is what it has always looked to me like we would have...10 goes to Rose to live the normal life.

Only he doesn't go from being exiled from the outside...he goes because of what the Shadow Proclamation Lady said...he's a relic from a dead age. The Valeyard was always wrong...but now...it is REALLY wrong for Ten to be rattling around alone. But...if he becomes 10.2/Donna...then he is tied to the human race...his new people.

And the things is...if this turns out not to work...Moffat can always say that when 10's 10.2 body dies in the Rose world...10 comes home to his real body. All this is...is the WATCH...10.2's body can hold 10 for a time...until HE is healed.

He just got it sort of turned around...and I thought...RTD didn't see it...but now...I'm thinking he does and he's waiting for the audience to catch up to him.

Rae

[bananasandroses.livejournal.com]

I wish I had your hope.

But I just can’t – won’t, if I’m honest – bear to deal with not-him at the moment, and it’s colouring how I see everything else.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

But 10.2 is such a great Doctor to go on with...he's got the inner ability to stop himself...and he's got a direct connection to the human race. And with a WHOLE year to explore the idea...Moffat has complete freedom to simply reverse him in 2010...or keep him around until David regenerates...or...if the idea REALLY works...keep 10.2 for the future...because he would be a Doctor for a new age, indeed...a whole NEW mythology.

I wish I had a direct pipeline to RTD's mind...instead of this cumbersome puzzlework. :smirk:

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I think that there is a level of irony at someone named lived-in-hope being without hope. :pets you:

Lord knows, considering what Joss Whedon put me through with the endless repeating of love=death theme and the ridiculous copout of an ending he gave the series...well...I certainly am very, VERY hesitant about investing belief in this idea...but it IS the only viable one I see.

There are only three things happening here...

1) RTD copped out on his theme because he's leaving the show or couldn't think of anything else to do.
2) RTD really truly believes that socks for Christmas is a good thing and we will all see that this is for the best.
3) RTD knows this is very, very wrong...and has been telling us we were headed here from the beginning.

I think that given what I am seeing in the canon...and that I don't have to look very far...as the basic ideas, I felt were presented very early...maybe the answer is 3.

If it is 1 or 2...then I'm seeing what I want to see...things that ARE not in the text at all but just in my mind.

Rae

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

If you look at the BBC DW publications aimed at the kiddies, they are already really pushing the Duplicate Doctor and Rose, talking about the adventures they'll have with their TARDIS once it grows (we didn't even see it in the final cut, but anyway).

And there are rumours that even TW is going to be more family friendly - they ran an edited version for the kiddies in the UK all through S2. Sarah Jane Aventures we already have, and the latest on that is they're bringing the Brigadier back at some point.

All this makes me wonder if they want to go dark, dark, dark with the parent show, so they're hiving off all these more palatable versions for younger viewers. Which is kind of sad, since DW was to prove it isn't impossible to write family drama after all, but interesting at the same time.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And there is talk of The Doctor's Daughter spin-off...from Moffat...who could well have been hired to helm THAT show and not the parent show.

If is likely to me...always has been...to me...

that Doctor Who is coming to an end...in a way that will allow it to be reinvented later...and the BBC is just lying to us...as they lied about Billie staying.

Also, you know...they HAVE to explain what they just did to the kiddies and moms...because they ruined Doctor Who...just now.

Rae

[astitchintime-9.livejournal.com]

I remember nearly everything that you have written. And that "reproduction" post was one of my all-time faves.

However, today you say:

I have hope. Genuine, text-based hope...not that make-do in a pinch type that's been going around lately. :twinkle:

and also:

Donna has to die. Sorry, but I think Wilf and the Doctor know she does. And the Doctor's song of hope has ended...what song is he singing now, I wonder?

and despite what you've written in between, ultimately, I cannot make those statements reconcile. Can you take another stab at doing so for me? Thx!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Here are some other real favorites of mine...that now really REALLY apply...I wish I could find my original Valeyard post...I was sure it was somewhere around the time of Family of Blood...but I can't seem to find it.

Anyway...some links...the last one is the one you are asking about...

EARLY FORESHADOWING…Religious Symbolism and Self-Sacrifice – May 20, 2007

http://rabid1st.livejournal.com/110496.html

Early Valeyard Foreshadowing…March 24, 2007

http://rabid1st.livejournal.com/104380.html

Why I think Donna is going to die…in a small way…rather than an epic way…May 3, 2008

http://rabid1st.livejournal.com/156610.html

And...btw...I still think this was foreshadowing...but now I see that it is because Wilf is going to have to comfort Sylvia who will naturally fight the inevitable. I think the relationship to her back...is that we are supposed to keep remembering that Donna decided to die for herself...in Turn Left.

Rae

[maniacalshen.livejournal.com]

Do you know what gives me hope? The fact that Turn Left STILL doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Why has Rose NEVER changed clothes? The events of the season have to gone over a day's worth of time, seriously. How did Rose know everything that was going on in Turn Left? How could she help UNIT build a time machine from the TARDIS?

There is Bad Wolf information being withheld here.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And...I will tell you what...it could be that Rose doesn't change clothes to carry on the weight of her being "like the Doctor." She uses no name...she never changes clothes...Donna would notice that. Oh, I do love Donna as the voice of reason inside the Doctor's head...isn't that such a cool idea?

Anyway...on the Bad Wolf note...here's a bit of something I wrote...in June 2006...

Bad Wolf…Knows

http://rabid1st.livejournal.com/113986.html

I think the Doctor doesn't mention about Jack because he doesn't want the Daleks to overhear. I think this is the same reason Rose doesn't defend him overtly...because...she doesn't want the Daleks or Davros to know that SHE is what keeps the Doctor fighting.

But I think the REAL clue is that Rose comes from the FUTURE...it is mildly addressed in the finale...and that could be all RTD means to do...it's not so much a thing left hanging...but it could be important. I am really wondering...as I do in the post above...if Rose knows what she NEEDS to know...to make sure the future goes right. If Rose saw all of Time & Space...she saw the Valeyard...and she could have taken steps to keep her Doctor safe...steps as huge as what she's done to Jack.

Yes, it goes against all reason to assume a companion is important like that...to the very essence of the show...most people are content that Rose gets "what she's always wanted" a snuggly Ten, but those of us who know Rose...know that's NEVER what she wanted...she told us...when she WAS the Bad Wolf..."I want you safe, my Doctor."

Maybe safe from himself.

Rae

[ladyofgallifrey.livejournal.com]

This is why I'm reading your LJ and avoiding most all of the comms. You always give me something to "chew on" as it were... And keeping my brain analyzing and turning things over to see if they make sense really does help take my mind off of other things.

I'm trying to digest all of this and I'm not doing a good job. It will probably take me several reads to fully get what you're trying to say here because on first blush, I don't see where there's hope in what you're saying. The one thing I *have* keyed on is Donna. I agree - Donna as an individual will die. I think there MUST be a "reintegration" of the Time Lord part of her with the rest of the Doctor that's in alt/clone/humanTen. So part of Donna will go on, as you originally theorized, as the first of a new line of Time Lord.

Now, I will go back and see if I can find the "hope" in what you've given us today.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

It gives us hope...because if I am right...the Doctor is going to have to go back to Donna and let her remember him. He's going to have to let her die. And I doubt her mother, Sylvia, will understand why...anymore than a large portion of the audience will get it.

But we ALL get that WILF loves Donna...and wanted her happiness above all else...and if, when the Doctor comes, Wilf is able to admit that he knows what the Doctor is saying is right. We won't just have Donna telling the Doctor thank you...as she dies...we will also have Wilf explaining it all to Sylvia. Since the Doctor will just be shown to be going evil...it will be hard for a lot of the audience to accept the reversal.

Especially the part of the audience that likes to call RTD a melodramatic hack and claim he can't write when the truth is they can't listen or learn. I mean...I could be wrong about all of this...and it could be he's just saying something that makes me angry and hopeless...as I've said earlier...BUT...there IS hope in the text of this all...that the Doctor is going evil right now...that's he's taken many steps into evil as Ten...and now has crossed the line from wanting people safe...to making them safe against their will.

And the people let him do that...that's the message for age...we the audience...let him get away with it...because we love him...and he's The Doctor...so he can do no wrong...we must justify his wrongs. That's what everyone is doing right now...justifying the wrongs the Doctor just did...like wanting the Daleks to go on instead of killing them like 10.2. I mean...that was insane...the Daleks can't be saved...offering Davros his hand...maybe...but blaming 10.2 for killing the Daleks...no...that's insane.

Rae

[nisrin]

I find it interesting that with no direct lead-in from the finale to Christmas, it leaves an indefinite time period between the two. It's the first time we've had that. Whatever path the Doctor is headed down, he could be much further along by the time we see him again.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yes! I am worried about him...all on his own. Because we have been told over and over again that we should worry about that.

Of course, it could be that is so he has time to completely recover from his losses.

But you know...what we said about S3...that he was suicidal...has proved to be true in the canon. Now, I am purposing...that the reason all of his friends were there, when it wasn't REALLY the Journey's End...is that they were indeed saying their good-byes to the Doctor. Not because RTD was leaving (He's NOT) but because that was the last we were ever going to see of "The Doctor."

Rae

[nisrin]

I can't help but hope (HOPE!) that he'll be somewhat recovered by Christmas. In that case, I can imagine whatever events I want that led to his lifting of spirits (going to Rose for awhile or whatever), and we can go on from there.

Otherwise, if we're back to S3 Doctor, and this time without even that name to keep him fighting, that's the bleakest picture I can imagine. Who would enjoy watching that?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Otherwise, if we're back to S3 Doctor, and this time without even that name to keep him fighting, that's the bleakest picture I can imagine. Who would enjoy watching that?

Well...nobody! And I think that is the point that RTD is going to make...for us at Christmas. I really pray intently that if I am right about this...that he makes the point at Christmas and doesn't try to drag it through another year.

The news I just posted about the specials...leads me to believe I AM right though. Because...if he does this at Christmas...then...people are still going to be shocked by it...and wonder about his save. Which I firmly believe is to send 10 to the other universe and have 10.2 take over here...to stop the Valeyard...which is a GREAT Old School reason to exile 10...honestly.

But...that means THEN...RTD and Moffat have to show us...gently...what the New New Who will look like...and Easter...is the perfect time to start a rebirth of Doctor Who. I mean what could be more perfect than that? Here is the Human/TimeLord...born into our world...like a new faith. I am not what most people would call a Christian...btw...but I can see the symbolic beauty in that idea.

Did you read what Sensiblecat said above about the threefold man? Because she is so right...it was the three people the Daleks imprisioned...Ten, 10.2 and Rose...Time Lord, Hybrid, Human Time Lord. OR...Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Rose has been a Time Lord all along. Since she took that Vortex into her...but she's not the sort of Time Lord we need to lead us to her place...we need old and new combined...we need 10.2. And with 3 specials after the solution...RTD can show us how happy 10.2 can make us all.

Rae

[nisrin]

I would love to think you're right. I would love to think that RTD and Moffat aren't so in love with their pureblood, no-stupid-ape-mixed-in Lord of Time that they would allow the hybrid to take over. What a goldmine of opportunities lost to never use the hybrid and DoctorDonna again. Besides shaking up the mytharc, the two of them together would be pure fun. Exactly what this show could use about now.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

That's what struck me...DoctorDonna...while he does look tragically unhappy in that final scene with Rose...is actually very happy most of the time when he was talking to Donna in the Tardis. Take for example...HIS reaction to the news about the Zed Neutrino Bomb...10 is snarling and spitting saying, "No, You can't!" And 10.2 has his chin in his hands and is comtemplating what to do about it. He's not happy and inapporiately joyous in the light of bad news but neither is he overwhelmed with anger, rage and pain...like 10.

No...I think 10 is the one who is supposed to go...and I think the easiest way to do it...is through a mental link to treat 10.2's human body like a fob-watch...they can just download personalities to one another simultaneously.

I bet Jack and his rift machine could power that sort of exchange.

Rae

[nisrin]

True. We didn't see much of him, but he did seem to have less of a burden on his shoulders. I want the Doctor that yells "Ha!" with Donna when he saves planets, not the melancholy one in the corner that needs some serious Rose therapy.

Perhaps we can arrange a little two-way biological metacrisis for you and RTD. You peek into his thoughts for the show's future, he sees your simple and elegant solution to the current state of the show, and we all get ponies for Christmas.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I am reaching for him with my handy spare hand right now. :grin:

But, you know...as weird as it sounds, I've always rather felt he was reaching for me...trying to trick me but saying HA when I noticed stuff. And in the finale...so much of what I had noticed came to pass...that's not just ME...that's RTD working at that. And I laughed so much when he said it was like a "game" with the audience...because it is...like this game for me. And I so want him to play a good game...even if he wins and I get the Humperdinck.

Rae

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

I don't really have time to go into all RTD's Christian symbolism here, particularly in the finales, but when someone calls the Doctor "The Threefold Man" your ears can't help but prick up.

Now, I've been chewing over this all week. I can see Doctor One as Jehovah, the controlling, jealous, fucked-up father God. I can see new blue Ten as the Son - God in human flesh. But what about the Holy Ghost?

And then it hit me. John, Chapter 15. At the Last Supper, Jesus promises his disciples a Comforter, the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, who will give them peace and lead them into the truth. It's the precise role of Rose, who can span both worlds, see all that is to come, and is an active, loving agent in the person of the Bad Wolf. Only Rose can unite the dualistic split between the two Doctors by loving both of them.

Moreover, in Chapter 15 Jesus tells his disciples, "Henceforth I call you not servants, for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth, but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you."

That perfectly expresses the role of the Companions, which was celebrated so beautifully in JE. Anyone who's attended a communion service and enjoyed the exchange of the Peace would recognise the atmosphere as being very similar to that of the crowded TARDIS.

So we aren't just seeing that the Doctor needs three aspects to himself - but his activity needs to be made flesh through his human companions, the Church if you like. All three aspects of the Trinity are totally interdependent; none can function healthily alone.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Not only THAT...but it is EXACTLY what the Ood song is about...unity between the GOD of the great brain and the simple creatures of the planet. This is why the song of the Ood played for a moment when all the humans and Doctors and the spirit of Rose were united in towing Earth back home.

Also...why the Song of the Ood played when Donna was feeling so helpless and alone...and then she reached out to a REALLY symbolic image...the HAND OF GOD. And she was transformed...

And then...GOD...came and took it all away from her, because he'd lost his spiritual connection with everything...again...and then there was nothing to stop him. You are right...I struggled all along to make the Doctor Three-Fold work with Donna but it doesn't...it is the three that were imprisoned by the Daleks...The Doctor...Human/Doctor...and Rose.

And how about that for foreshadowing in the face of evil...when the werewolf said..."You burn like the sun" to her...there is "something of the Wolf in you." There is...something of the God figure in her...but like Nine...she'd make a very BAD God...as in she wouldn't be GOOD at being the Wolf at the Door.

Oh...but TEN...he would be a very GOOD wolf.

Rae