The most faithful companion...DW S4 episode 13 Spoilers

[rabid1st]

You all know me...and you know that after a good night's sleep I always have a different perspective on things.

I was on chat with Melissa from Australia last night and I started listing the reasons why I didn't really buy this ending for the show. Another person raggyanne did a similar thing in a comment on my last post. Let's start with her list and go on with some of my own reasons.


So for me a sad feeling all round as A) I do not believe that Rose would give up on the Doctor B) I do not like to think that Ten is unhappy C) I don't like to think that Donna lives a sad life - I want her to walk in the dust, to think more of herself D) I was not happy that Jack & Rose had no resolution E) 10.2 feels like the Booby prize & for me more often than not if I can't have what I want then I would rather go without.

6) or...no...that's not right...F) Nobody connected with the show seemed happy about this in the confidential...they were acting like a bunch of spin doctors, trying to explain away a gaff.

G or 7) We aren't allowed any resolution with 10.2/Rose and we know they filmed a more passionate kiss but didn't air it. So the show was blocked that way on purpose...to make it seem like 10.2/Rose would need work. Why do that? It leaves us wanting.

This is in direct contradiction to what we are all trying to believe about 10.2 that he is exactly like 10. If he was...he would have encouraged Rose, talked about things they could do together, and leaned into her arm like he does at the end of the Christmas Invasion. Or he would have at least showed her the compassion he shows her when Jack dies in this very episode. He would have understood her and he clearly doesn't...all he has is the knowledge of his other self. And the knowledge this is hurting Rose.

H) Earlier in this same episode...Rose hesitates to embrace the newly (as far as we know) regenerated Doctor who looks just like 10...until he confirms he's the same man.

I) We are asked to believe that Dalek Caan is on the Doctor's side and has had a change of heart. So, we are asked to believe mad Daleks can feel things and see reason?

J) We are expected to believe...that the Doctor really does drop Rose off at the side of the road and move on...even though...he said he never would. Even though she is what he wants most in the universe...and that was made crystal clear to us in the previous episode. Which means we are asking Rose to accept something no 4 year old would accept...that 10.2 is the Doctor. If he's the Doctor...why can't he temp for the Doctor? Oh, because he's human and broken...right. So, everyone gets socks for Christmas.

K) We are also expected to believe that the Doctor's soul is revealed as he recalls all of the people who have died in his name...and when he sees the people he's trained become weapons. The companions though...don't stop...they ARE stopped by being teleported away from their weapons. So, the Doctor's soul is full of death and his friends are killers...who can still save the Earth, though.

L) We must, I suppose, infer that Donna is the companion slated to die...as she would have died if the Doctor hadn't wiped her memories...so she suffers an everlasting half-life...just like Rose and 10.2, I guess.

M) But it is more than just Rose, 10.2, Donna, Wilf and all of use who are living a warped little life from now on when we watch this show...knowing that everything will end in tragedy. Sarah Jane points out that the Doctor acts like the loneliest man alive but he has all these friends. Then she rushes off and the Doctor goes on with his goodbyes...making his own misery.

N or 14) We are asked to believe that the Doctor is not only not happy now...but that he will be just this unhappy in a 1000 years...when he learns of River's alternative life in a machine. If he truly loves River, which you have to doubt, because why would he ever lets himself do this again...then she too is fobbed of into a fake life. As River's voiceover tells us...he must always be alone and magnificent. Isn't that grand?

No, really it is not. Self-sacrifice is certainly part of Doctor Who but nobody really likes a self-imposed martyr.

So, I put this to you...that we were all wrong about the Doctor's most faithful companion. And Dalek Caan was right about it dying.

The most faithful companion to the Doctor...the one that has always been beside him and stepped out of the TARDIS with him every single time he arrived somewhere. Was not Jack or Rose or Donna...it was not loneliness or guilt or even death. The thing that has always been his most faithful companion...and is now dead and gone...is that little thing with wings that Pandora clasped to her bosom...

HOPE!

Everyone in the confidential kept saying it...the walls of reality are sealed...there is no hope of ever going back to Rose...no hope of Donna ever being anything more than she is...no hope of the Doctor ever being anything but alone. Billie tries to conjure up some scifi hope and then says...but maybe she's just in denial and there's no hope. The show goes on, of course, we can have adventures...but everything ends in the Doctor being unhappy and alone.

It is why the show feels so empty and pointless, now, and frankly not something I would let my kids watch...because...there's no hope that anything will ever change or be better for this man.

Hope is dead!

This can't be the end...because if it is...the Daleks beat the Doctor, he lost everything...the woman he loves, the sister he almost had and any hope he might still harbor.

Comments

[ke0001.livejournal.com]

I think this is my biggest problem. I can live with something that hurts, but I have to have hope. Doomsday hurt but it gave hope, hope for a reunion.

I really don't see any hope in JE and it makes me feel miserable. I don't want to watch that kind of TV. And unless I hear some very good, happy, hopeful reviews of the special I won't be watching it any longer.

Life is hard enough I don't want my tv to put something on top of that. I want it to be my escape from real life. And it really used to be, especially the first 2 seasons.

:-(

I do hope I'll be able to enjoy fixits again though. I hope that even if this show is not my thing anymore I'm still gonna be able to be a part Doctor/Rose Fandom and read Doctor/Rose Fanfic. I wouldn't know what to do with all the free time I'd get if I would lose that as well.

K.

[maniacalshen.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure where you were going with I. But I found the rest of this interesting.

I don't usually watch the Confidential, but I saw some of this one and was struck by what Billie said about the parting, particularly the Beauty and the Beast metaphor. Kind of a moment of "She understands us!" And she's having just as much trouble letting go of the ship.

But yes, that ending was completely without hope for the Doctor and Donna, and Rose is left going, "UM?!" So little closure for Rose/everyone. It was distressing, and I forsee a lot of fixit fic. Hell, I'm writing a fixit fic.

[amybtvsfreak.livejournal.com]

I seriously don't think it's the end. Like Billie said in the Confidential, with sci-fi you just never know what can happen. She didn't act like she'd never be back on DW again, which implies that there's still hope that something else can happen. He said before that the parallel universe was sealed off forever, and we saw how wrong-wrong-wrong he was! I'm sure he's wrong about many other things too...we'll just have to wait and see what the writers unfold for us.

[roxyk630.livejournal.com]

Okay, I have more on this BUT...
http://roxyk630.livejournal.com/230647.html
http://roxyk630.livejournal.com/230947.html

THIS being most important to some of the points you've made.
http://roxyk630.livejournal.com/231566.html

[roxyk630.livejournal.com]

I'll respond with more words (that are on here) when I have time. XD;

You are absolutely right

[(Anonymous)]

And still I can't let go. I can't just sit there after watching it and say, we must feel sorry for the Doctor, for Gods have no choice but to be alone in their greatness. No thank you. At least with the first two seasons the Doctor was happy a good part of the time. Death still surrounded him but he did have those moments where it revolved around the restoration of life. "The Doctor Dances" and "New Earth" were examples of that, I love Nine's quote "Everybody lives Rose! Just this once everybody lives!"

You also nailed it in your previous post regarding the whole Doctor/Rose bond being worked up in the last 3 episodes, shown how close they were and how much they loved each other. To separate them like that at the end is just cruel with no resemblance of happiness or closure for either party. The Doctor just walked away, even before Rose kissed 10.2, he was walking away from her with no proper good-bye. You could argue the reason he didn't tell Rose his feelings were due to 1) his life doesn't allow him to express those "human" emotions (which doesn't make sense because he would've said it in Doomsday) or 2) he didn't say it to prevent Rose from "hanging on". "Does it need saying?" I would've written Rose's reply something along the lines of, "if you are leaving me behind Doctor, with everything we've been through, don't you think so?"

I love the Doctor/Rose and just like many other fans I want to see HIM happy. I'll watch the Christmas special because I need to know where they will continue with that depressing ending, but after that I don't think I can hold on. Sorry for my really long post and numerous grammatical errors. >_<

-Candi

I never notice grammatical errors

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

This is why I have beta babes. :grin:

But there is so much about the DOCTOR being unhappy that is wrong. His relationship with River was shown to be largely illusionary. Yes, we could say that we know he will love someone in the future...but that person is also manipulated into taking the imaginary happy life. She is also tucked away in an alternative reality with her "family" beside her.

Yes, there is a symmetry of "spoilers" there...and aren't we all so clever folding around of themes. But in the end we see that the Doctor must be this tragic figure now...and sure...maybe that is consistent with the mythos of New Who. But I can't help thinking about S1 and S2 when he had so much life and fun in him. And how on the day he meets River Song he will know he can't love her completely. They will laugh and share picnics and have a good time together...I'm sure...but she will always be headed for that computer.

I suppose I think that it SHOULD be changed...that she should have hope. I feel like the Doctor shouldn't have taken everything away from River at the end...like he takes everything away from Donna...and himself and really...Rose. Sure, River might be happy with the Doctor stopping by her virtual world. And Rose might learn to be happy with 10.2 once he is healed of his darkness. But the Doctor's entire life is illusionary...he can never have peace or joy...even for a short time. And that's the thing...yes...people will die...he will always be alone again...but does he have to always be unhappy, too? Can't the feelings be real?

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

I'll watch the Christmas special or hear it from other fans and write a fic in the meantime to amuse myself and others. After that, if all is sealed as is, I can't continue watching either. I'm sick of not having hope. I'm also sick of Rusty's bad writing. What the hell was he doing? Writing an episode of Seinfield? A show about nothing? No, Seinfield is actully retarded enough where you don't get depressed. DW got entirely too sad. I'm sick of sad things.

So Rae, are you writing your version of a resolution?

I whipped out a couple of pages last night

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Before I started getting upset again...and thinking...really how consistent RTD was if he really meant for the Doctor to be without hope forever. This Doctor has been forged over the last few seasons with hope dying a little more each time.

I used to believe that RTD meant to address the idea of the Valeyard...of the Doctor just becoming this soulless person with no hope or joy in him. And that was why we would have a last minute reversal with Rose. But now...I think he may like this idea of the Doctor as sad and alone and embittered.

Roxy above has a link to a big inner view of the WHO team saying that the Doctor will love again with River...so we know he will be okay. But I am looking straight at River when I say he will NOT be okay. The very fact that his future relationship hope is with a woman he will lie to and lock away in an alternative universe...says it all. It says that this man will never be okay again.

And I don't think I will watch at Christmas unless I hear that it gets a grand fix. Last Christmas was bad enough and this is even worse...I don't think I have enough optimism left to go on with this show.

Rae

Re: I whipped out a couple of pages last night

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

I understand. I think eventually, I'll move on as well, along with a huge part of the fan base Rusty just wiped away. Moffat didn't even have a chance to kill the show.He was mocking us in SitL/FotD. I sensed it and I shouldn't have been so quick to brush it off.

I noticed you took down your Doctor/Rose headings.So I take it your resolution is out of the question.

[soniced-up.livejournal.com]

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. I've been struggling with my feelings over all that happened in the last 12 minutes. I had all this emotion and I didn't know what it was exactly that I was feeling. Anger? Depression? Betrayed? All of the above?

But the 'loss of hope' sums it up completely. There is nowhere else to. Nothing left to hold onto. All DW will ever be now is the adventures. The romps through time and space. And although I will always love the Doctor, I just don't feel I'll be able to be as emotionally invested as I've always been with this show.

They didn't even give us the promise of a new adventure at the end there. Like they did with Bridzilla!Donna appearing in the TARDIS or crashing into the Titanic. So we are left with the idea of the Doctor, drifting aimlessly through time and space, alone, depressed...hopeless for hte next 6 months.

I do feel betrayed actually. I feel the essence of this show has been ripped from me/us. This show has always been about HOPE. About the possiblilty of the impossible.

I think it's finaly been truely driven home that no matter what journeys we take with the Doctor, no matter what aventures are had or what relationships are forged it will always be for nought.

- the Daleks, no matter how many times they are wiped from existence they will always come back.

- everything they did to save the people on Utopia

- The Year that Never Was

- Rose fighting to get back to her Doctor, all the promises they made each other when they were together

- And Donna. Right now this is the hardest one for me to swallow. We spent 3 and a bit months getting to know this character...longer if you count Runaway Bride... We watched her grow and come into her own. We fell in love with her. We laughed when she laughed. We cried when she cried. And for what? To have it all wiped like it mattered nothing at all.

The message that I've finally received loud in clear is DO NOT GET INVOLVED BECAUSE IF YOU DO YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE YOUR HEART RIPPED OUT AND STOMPED ON.

There is not point. There is no hope.

*is sad*

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

In our little perfect fanon world, after a life well lived with Tenbis, Bad Wolf!Rose comes back and get married with the True Doctor.
*totally in denial*

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

I had something in my head like, fake Ten turns evil and Real Ten comes back to save Rose. OI! *goes to write fic

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Fake Ten has Rose, I don't think he'll become evil. However, Real Ten is all alone and he's becoming daker and darker every series. As far as i'm concerned, I think he's the one who's becoming evil. Maybe the Valeyard.

[fidesangelus.livejournal.com]

I will continue to trust RTD and of course your's theories for Christmas until there is no reason not to. Yup.

Now I'm going to go curl up in a ball and wait for December...

Re: You know that after a good night's sleep I always have a different perspective on things.

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

Same with me. And here's where my perspective changed to next.

Still, I really hope you are wrong about the death of hope, even if I feel it creeping up upon me too. I feel like I have to force myself to be optimistic otherwise I'll fall to pieces. If I don't convince myself completely that Hand!Doctor is still The Doctor, then the wrongness of it all will end up consuming my love for the show entirely like a burning house. And there lies the greatest tragedy of all.

OMG! RAE!

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

I was talking to another fan in the newsroom. He pointed out to me that the cybermen are from the alt!verse. SO perhaps, we do get this fixed.Either I'm a sad character that is still tugging on hope with both hands or there really is hope. I mean, without canon, why would anyone watch the specials?

Re: OMG! RAE!

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

I've heard these Cybermen are old school Cybermen, the proper ones from this universe, not the alt!verse ones from Lumic.

[nisrin]

The Doctor tells Rose that she made him better. And it's clearly true that when she was with him, he was better. He had his scars, but he was happy too. When she said "You just leave us behind. Is that what you're going to do to me?" He said "No. Not to you." Because he believed then that even though he would eventually have to live on alone, being happy with her for as long as he could was worth it.

Now? He leaves her behind. He no longer believes in his own happiness, not even temporarily. All he sees is everything turning to dust. Relationships must be superficial because they won't last anyway. If that's the message he took away from being with Rose, then she didn't make him better. And if she couldn't, who will ever be able to?

In sum, I completely agree. Where's the hope?

[np-complete.livejournal.com]

Everything you and sensiblecat have said makes a lot of sense. I woke up the morning after watching feeling like I'd been kicked in the chest.

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

See? The Daleks DID win the war. Caan played everybody. This is what Caan wanted to happen, and he used Davros to do it. This is why Ten's on the TARDIS utterly alone and drowned rattish. He believes he deserves it. Bad Ten. No biscuit.

That being said--there are things that still need to happen and Christmas is the time of hope. There's no way in hell this is the end of the story, particularly since it's Rusty doing the Christmas episode and the four parter. He ain't done with us yet.

I am going to keep clinging to faith (and fanon) for as long as I can.

He will make it better.
He will make it better.
He will make it better.

And if he doesn't, I shall have his balls on a platter.

[webeh.livejournal.com]

RTD's doing the tv movies? I thought Moffatt is.

I was kind of hoping Moffatt would do at least one because I'm really curious to see how he'd define the show? Will he make it gloomier than it already is or give us a happier Doctor? Yes, his episodes tend to be on the sad side, but maybe that was just him playing along with Russell's story arc.

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

I had assumed that Moffat was doing everything from this point on, but the general consensus I've been reading online says otherwise. I haven't seen official word one way or another since I wanted to remain an utter spoiler-virgin this series. So don't take my word as gospel as to who's doing the specials.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Russell has said...and so has David that Russell is writing the 3 specials. So, we can assume...if there ARE three specials...that he is writing them.

I have had a suspicion all along that there are NOT 3 specials...but only a happy ending at Christmas.

And since now I know how to have that happy ending...I am content to see if I am right. Actually...even with 3 specials...or DT staying as the Doctor for another two years...we can have my happy ending...so I think I am right about it.

Rae

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

If Tennant is staying on for Series 5, then I am with you on your guess that we will just get a Christmas happy and no specials. But if he moves on, or is only committed long enough to regenerate for Series 5, then we may well get those specials so the Beeb can milk Tennant the Cash Cow for as long as they can. Not that I blame them. He's both eye-candy AND bloody brilliant.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...the thing about my Christmas fix...the eternal beauty of it...is it doesn't matter if Tennant stays or leaves...or if we get 4 specials or no specials...or another season of 10. Because it will be all fun exploration and not depressing at all. And David would have many, many more opportunities to be brilliant than he has now...he would be able to reinvent the character.

Rae

[nisrin]

This article says RTD will be head writer for the specials in 2009.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Your link doesn't work. And the reason I doubt the three specials is...that a longer break will build more momentum...and they are all liars...and we really won't know anything until after Christmas about said specials.

I mean...the concept of the specials broke AFTER news of David's Hamlet broke. And then they all came forward to tell us not to panic...because even though it looked like everyone was leaving...RTD was writing 3 specials for David to star in and they were just taking a little break.

Now...that could still be absolutely true...but I think RTD still plans to have his real "jouney's end" at Christmas time. But I've always been too much of an optimist. :grin:

I once wrote an essay on Joss Whedon being a benevolent God...and he turned out to be anything BUT that. Now, it seems RTD is anything but a typical atheist...he seems to think it's okay to have a god...as long as he can fashion the god in a way he likes. But I do wonder about that...about his Lonely God.

Rae

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

Or a longer break can kill momentum, ala BSG...

I am going to continue to keep the faith. Journey's End was a brilliant episode IF and ONLY IF it's a middle, not an end. It was RTD's Empire Strikes Back. I want my sappy Ewok ending, damnit.

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

Given that this article is over a year old, is it likely this has changed with the changing of the guard officially to Moffat?

[nisrin]

Alright, here's a link to the BBC FAQ, updated June 11, 2008. RTD is still listed as "overseer", although in the last Tennant interview I saw, he said there would four specials, not three. Dunno, I'm just offering what I've heard.

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

bless!

[webeh.livejournal.com]

G or 7) We aren't allowed any resolution with 10.2/Rose and we know they filmed a more passionate kiss but didn't air it. So the show was blocked that way on purpose...to make it seem like 10.2/Rose would need work. Why do that? It leaves us wanting.

Random, but I'm curious what the director's opinion of this was. Because, he clearly asked the actors to get as into it as they did. Otherwise, I'm sure he would have stopped them if he thought they were going overboard. RTD and the director seem to share different visions regarding the Ten/Rose relationship. RTD wants ambiguity (ala the Graduate), whereas the Doctor filmed a happier ending.

[webeh.livejournal.com]

The director filmed a happier ending, not the Doctor. ;)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

You know what she means...drat you! :snicker:

Anyway, writers have the final say in American tv in how a scene airs...and we filmed that scene up close and far away. But I do wonder how many takes they did...because I watched the shot again...and Rose doesn't really do that complete wrap around with her arms in the one that aired...that's another reason she seemed more tentative in the one that airs.

Rae

[webeh.livejournal.com]

They probably did a couple of versions. I guess to give the writers a couple interpretations of a scene for them to select from.

It's interesting. RTD only had to throw in the smallest of details to make this a happier ending than it was. For example, if Rose/10.5 either grinned or walked away from the screen holding hands, it would have been abundantly clear that Rose made a choice.

Another thing that would have made that scene less weird is if we got to see 10.5 and Rose interact (in the foreground of the plot). Maybe she could even find out that she has a stronger connection to him than the original Doctor. Also, I really wanted to see Rose react to some of Ten's Donna moments.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Or...if instead of going to Donna, during the TARDIS piloting scene...10.2 had gone to Rose. I don't think he even hugged her in the elated hugging part. I do know that 10 hugged her though...and also...shared that delighted Gwen Moment with her.

As you say...if she and 10.2 had seemed in love at all...after the kiss...if they had stayed in the embrace...and looked together toward the departing Tardis...or if she had turned into his shoulder to cry the way she did with her mother...and with Mickey when facing the loss. Or...if they didn't want her to cry...if she'd simply leaned into him after the hand hold...or if he'd, as you said, turned her away...guided her up the beach.

Anything to make this look like something that could work...or that she wanted...that reactionary kiss wasn't enough simply because she broke free of it and ran toward her real love. And all the talk about how a man in your image is you...because Mickey took Ricky's place and Jackie and Pete took their AltVerse places...don't work for me...because in all of those cases...the original love or relative was DEAD. The Doctor is NOT dead...and Rose knows it.

Rae

[ladymalchav.livejournal.com]

God, that is depressing.

This is why I am holding on to the hope (ha!) that a new production team will take the show in a new direction.

plzplzplzplzplzplzplz ;_;

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Hey...you want hope...check out my Hello, Doctor post. I know it is long and rambling...sorry about that...I was high on Pixar's Wall-E!

Rae