OMG! DOCTOR WHO...S4...EPISODE 11...SPOILERS!

[rabid1st]

Was there ever any doubt I would see this today? Nope!

ROSE! ROSE! ROSE! ROSE! ROSE! ROSE! ROSE!

BAD WOLF!

OMG!!

:squuuuuueeeeeeeeeeeEEEE:

Okay, I'm better now. So...back to my crack theories. It is the same old story. I think Donna is the first human Time Lord. I think whatever is coming...they need two Time Lords to stop it. There will be some major earthshattering solution...and the Doctor will say..."If only we had another Time Lord." And then someone will say..."What's so special about Time Lords? What would they do?"

And it will dawn on him that he could elevate a human...Rose. But then she wouldn't be Rose Tyler anymore. Just like Jackie said, she would lose herself in the greater identity. And the Doctor loves her...like a man loves a woman. He doesn't want her to change, be less Rose...because Rose is perfect in his eyes.

So...here's what I think...I think the Doctor does what he says in The Doctor's Daughter...he shares his history, his pain, his knowledge...and regenerative ability...with someone...to make them a Time Lord. Then, perhaps...his current life can be less stressful (or celibate) for a time. It is sort of a release of his obligations...he turns them over to someone else for a little while. He was Time Lording up Rose...but he fell in love with her. And she became the Bad Wolf...and well...everything changed. Now, he's Time Lording up Donna.

I don't think he's doing it on purpose, though. I don't think the light has dawned on him yet. I think it is like all of the aliens breeding this season. Life finding a way (as they say in Jurassic Park).

This would stamp RTD's mark on this series forever. It would become a show about the elevation of the human race. The Doctor is the last Gallifreyan Time Lord...but Donna could be the start of human Time Lords. And the show can become a true Two-Hander from now on. No more of this "Ignore the companion...she's just supposed to look pretty and scream...she's not important...only he is" nonsense. Maybe it was always about making the companions just as important as the Doctor. AND RTD has a throughline...like I've been saying for...what is it now...? Three years?

Okay...enough of my crack!theories. As Kes would say, "You are overthinking this! We will see."

Let's go back to squeeing over...oh, so much intertwining beauty. Rose is her universe's Doctor. Shee doesn't use a name...but only Bad Wolf. And she understands that part of who he is. She fights on alone. She says stuff he'd say. She won't let the UNIT people salute her. And she is screaming for him still...more than his name this time...HER NAME...all those words...flags...the TARDIS. And he didn't hear her! And now...the universe is indeed ending...but Rose is coming back...and isn't that good?

"Yeah!" YEAH, IT IS!

And didn't you just love how Rose dodged the question of what sort of relationship she had with the Doctor? And that bit about his hair! I know a lot of the hair-brigade people on my FList are squeeing over that one. And she was just made of awesome! Because she is.

Also, how cool is it to get confirmation on the fact that the Doctor wanted to die in S3? That he would have died without Donna there to distract him after he lost Rose? I mean...he totally loves Rose and would have simply died in that horrible way...genocide and suicide. Who says the companions aren't important now? Not me, that's for sure.

I do have questions! When the Doctor said, "It is the end of the universe!" I wonder does he say that because he knows if Rose is coming back the universe will shatter...or does he know that Bad Wolf means the end of the universe...because he had it inside of him, too?

Let me think on that...I do think that Jack is a storehouse for the Bad Wolf energy...and it will come into play in the finale. Okay...and so...let's say the Doctor has always known...that if Rose stayed with him she would be pushed to the point where he would have to give her the regenerative ability...losing the woman he loves to save the universe. But the Bad Wolf has other ideas...and Donna and Jack are part of its plan. And it will be Donna who is Time Lorded up...to go on traveling...forever. And Rose and Ten will get to make time babies.

That's my crack and I'm smoking it until RTD takes away the pipe. Two weeks...two weeks...Lord, I hope we don't cliffhanger to Christmas...on anything but what happens next to Donna.



Rae

Comments

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

SQUEE! *Hugs you out of joy

"That's my crack and I'm smoking it until RTD takes away the pipe. "

I love that.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

What a fascinating theory. I think that would be totally awesome if it were to happen.

I don't know. I pretty much agree with all of your thoughts on this ep, squeed and went insane over at my lj. All worded out now, LOL!

Oh, and just had to quote this paragraph, bolding this specific line because I loved it:

it will dawn on him that he could elevate a human...Rose. But then she wouldn't be Rose Tyler anymore. Just like Jackie said, she would lose herself in the greater identity. And the Doctor loves her...like a man loves a woman. He doesn't want her to change, be less Rose...because Rose is perfect in his eyes.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Right! I think that the different kinds of love come into play here. The Doctor loves all his companions...it's not some kind of competition. You don't love your mother more than your brother, for example. Maybe if you HAD to choose you might be able to do so...but really...it would haunt you forever. So, you don't categorize people like that. And friends are people you love. I think that the Doctor loves his companions...but he doesn't love them all in the same way.

He loves most of them the way a mentor loves a prize student. I think he loves Donna like a sibling. And he loves Rose like a man loves a woman. Rose completes him the way a soulmate does complete you. And how wonderful was her explanation of the turning left there...when she was all animated...I swear Billie must have had David do that first so that she could get his nuances down...or maybe she is just THAT could.

And I'm with RTD...Catherine Tate made me cry in quite a few places. That was some fine acting...and no wonder there looked to be tension between Billie and CT on set for that scene on the street...it was a tense scene. They couldn't be all laughing and buddy-buddy for it, could they?

Rae

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Funny you say this about the companions, because I wrote something similar in my write-up ...

I also loved how like Rose, Donna has come across (to me, at least) as a true friend-version of a soulmate to the Doctor, as opposed to "love of his life" (per David Tennant, :D) -version of a soulmate that is Rose. Sigh, poor Martha, she just doesn't compare to Rose OR Martha in my book. Poor, poor Martha. There's a quote from Billie Piper where she commented that the Doctor loves all of his companions equally but in different ways; I definitely see that with Rose and Donna. Not so much with Martha. Double sigh, poor, poor, poor Martha.

Catherine Tate is just a treasure, a marvel. Amazing, brilliant, wonderful, I can't sing her praises enough.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I can't either...I love CT. I love Donna...just not like I love Rose. I don't think Donna should get a shag...and some time babies...I think she should get something else equally as snazzy. Like...all his Time Lord abilities and some regenerations.

I knew I would love this season when I heard CT had been asked back to be a regular companion. Because it was such good news for the show as I saw it unfolding...it said to me...different kind of love.

And yeah, I did feel quite sorry for Martha this time out. But I do think that Martha might come into play next time because of her medical training. And then...she too knows that the Doctor is in love with Rose...something that the Doctor doesn't quite grasp yet. That's it not just...like Sarah Jane, someone he felt quite close to and could have fraternized with if he hadn't been a Time Lord.

With Rose it is more like...he really wants to fraternize...and it's in the way of him being a Time Lord...which is what everyone complained about in S2...those that complained, I mean. But really...I do think RTD meant to show that...because he has Queen Victoria address it...and Jackie...and then he has that whole S3 of punishment. So, he knew what he was doing having Rose and Ten so very into each other...and I hope it was to purpose...basically...to the purpose of them being true-love soulmates...as opposed to true-friend soulmates....or children or any other type of relationship you could name.

Rae
hoping this elation doesn't lead me to a very long fall...but...still...flying high tonight.

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

I like your brand of crack. There were certain points in the ep (like when they were going on about how special Donna is) where I totally thought "oooh Rae's going to be all over that".

I can't wait for the Whoniverse to pretty much collapse in on itself next week and bring all my favs back together. :)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

That's me...all over things! Of course, I could have it all completely turned around. But I do love how things sort of click into place with RTD's work. I very much admire his ability to seed things in a sensible fashion...he makes me feel like he's actually thinking ahead.

And most writers...make me feel like they are bullshitting us...and indeed it turns out that they are.

So...it is very interesting...the next time preview. And I've said, all along...since...Doomsday...that we would need them all there for the finale. And here they all are. So, things are in place for it. If only it is going to happen...:fingers still crossed:

Rae

[phdelicious.livejournal.com]

I'm finding it very interesting that so far your ideas are seeming to be validated (at least partially), though I can't say as I follow it all.

RTD seems to have done a very good job of laying out his story arcs and planning for the long term, not just how to get one season out of a single idea. I've been nervous about whether he was going to be able to properly pull this off but now I'm excited for next week.

[fidesangelus.livejournal.com]

Yay! Rae has posted her thoughts so I can enjoy my post-Doctor Who episode thoughts dessert. ;) Lol, seriously though Rose was fantastic in this episode. So much of the Doctor being channeled and STROKING THE TARDIS! I about died when she did that and it responded. Love it.

For an episode that I didn't like at all in the beginning it became one of my all time favorites by the end.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh...the TARDIS stroking...can't believe I didn't mention that. And she's in mourning for him...the TARDIS...dying without him. And yet, as you say, she responded to Rose's touch. I bet he has the same reaction to Rose's touch. :grin:

Glad to see someone appreciating my dessert posts.

I love the intertwining...I do that in my own writing and I love to see someone else do it. To me, that is part of the fun of discovering the pattern in a work...writing or reading it...seldom seeing it. Though the Usual Suspects and The Sixth Sense both did it for me.

Rae

[bonhomie-13.livejournal.com]

Hmm ... didn't we find out last series that Rose IS a human Time Lord? In Utopia, or something, and it all to do with the whole POTW-Bad Wolf-TARDIS thing.

I dunno. My brain's a bit fuzzy, so feel free to slap me. :)

Oh, wait. Just looked it up. 8-year-old Gallifreyans are taken to look into the time vortex as Time Lord initiation ... though I guess Rose didn't so much as glance into the vortex as take a great bleeding gulp of the thing. ;) lol.

Anyway, the thing I really wanted to say was ...

ROOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes! Bad Wolf is back (and apparently the TARDIS and Rose are both in on it together ... *points at awesome mutated police public call box lights*)

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

Could Donna be a half-human half-time lord? In this episode, for the first time, we hear her father being referenced, twice. And when Rose mentions that Donna has been special all her life, the UNIT officer nudges Rose that information isn't critical to the mission. That could certainly be the reason for the series of coincidences binding them together, and why the whole world changed around Donna.

In more squee-ish terms, I so loved that Rose didn't answer when asked about the relationship, went on about Ten's really great hair (OMG YES!), and made the TARDIS purr when she stroked her. I also love how adult she was about how essential Donna is to the Doctor's very existence. Had it been Martha (of s3, anyway) you KNOW she would have pouted and been pissy and forlorn, just like she was in HN/FoB. And David's reaction to the possibility then acknowledgement of Bad Wolf was BAFTA worthy.

Speaking of BAFTAs, weren't the performances of the actors who played Mrs. Noble and Granddad simply amazing? Wilf just about crushed me when Mussolini man was being taken away to the camps, and the dead look on her mum's face was just wow.

Yes, I had to watch this 3 times before bed last night and dreamt Rose & Ten dreams all night.

Oh, and I bet you any money our uncanny Donna will realize it's Rose before Ten acknowledges it. Her empathy skills and attention to minutae are amazing.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

You know...she could be half-human/half-Gallifreyan or Time Lord. I think that we are being deliberately misdirected in this episode. We now think we know things that we may not know...like we see that a world without the Doctor would be very bad indeed. So, he can't retire or take a vacation, ever. We think Bad Wolf is going to rise...and that Rose is the human Time Lord. But my feeling is that there is another step to the process.

Donna was exposed to the heart of the TARDIS...when she was dosed with those radioactive particles in The Runaway Bride. She may still have some of that energy in her...or the ability to manipulate it, too. I feel that our sacrifice will look to be Rose or the Doctor or life as we know it. But that Donna may be able to step into the breech and it won't be a sacrifice for her but a glory.

So where becoming a Time Lord might ruin Rose's life while shattering Ten's hopes of ever having a family again. Becoming a Time Lord would make Donna completely fulfilled and free the Doctor to have what he's always wanted. It is...as they've kept telling us...a different kind of relationship...a different kind of love. Rose loves him as a man...she loves his hair and feels the very human pain of how hard his life is on him. Donna loves his life...like he loved it once upon a time.

Rae

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

Rose loves him as a man...she loves his hair and feels the very human pain of how hard his life is on him. Donna loves his life...like he loved it once upon a time.

HELL yeah.

There's no question that this journey with the Doctor is what Donna's whole life has been leading up to. It's what gives her purpose. Everything she is makes her uniquely suitable for this journey. Her empathy. Her quirky skill set. Her observation of easily overlooked minutae and putting together pieces of the puzzle that others miss.

I do think there will be sacrifice, probably Donna's, to save the world. We have seen a precursor to the Doctor being ready to make a sacrifice and someone else stepping in at the last second because of how important the Doctor is to humanity's survival in The Poison Sky. Certainly, much has been made of being remembered and immortalized in song, art, legend, etc all through this series. Just as strongly as "family" and "coincidence" have threaded their way in. And we may well get our Christmas cliffhanger of Donna saving the world, Ten/Rose going off to make babies because Donna wanted them to, then see Donna regenerating unbeknownst to them, just like Ten is unaware that Jenny Who is still alive.

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

You know...she could be half-human/half-Gallifreyan or Time Lord. I think that we are being deliberately misdirected in this episode. We now think we know things that we may not know...like we see that a world without the Doctor would be very bad indeed.

You know, it occurred to me Donna's Turn Right alternative life experience is exactly why she'd be willing to sacrifice what she considers to be her meaningless life for the betterment of the world, and I think that's exactly how she'll find her true gift/birthright, whatever that will ultimately end up being. I stongly suspect (ok, maybe just strongly hope) that Uncle Rusty is going to let us have our cake and eat it too.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

This is what I think RTD is going to do too. Let us have both things...by directing us to look at this from one way around...the Doctor or Rose must step up...but what if Donna could step up...and what if her stepping up...was a good thing for her...not a bad one?

Rae
who has posted all this in another LJ post now. ;->

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...see...? I think that's what did happen. I think that Rose got everything she needed in that big old gulp of Time Vortex. She was the first step into the new age of Human Time Lords. But the Doctor finds out 1) Humans can use the Vortex...just as he also learns 2) He truly loves Rose Tyler.

So, he has this dilemma during S2...which keeps him from announcing his love...and that's that Rose Tyler is going to become a Time Lord and then they won't be able to be together as a man and a woman could be together. If the passing on of the regeneration ability leaves him an ordinary man than she will by-pass him...and if it doesn't...she will still change and not be Rose, but a strange woman in the marketplace (as Jackies said).

But Donna has also been exposed to the energy at the heart of the TARDIS...when she is dosed with those particles...she and the TARDIS were linked. So it is possible SHE can step into the role that Rose is being groomed for but that the Doctor doesn't want her to have...next Time Lady.

I know as fans of Rose many, many people want her to be a Time Lord...but what they don't realize is that the Doctor is very unhappy in his life. He wouldn't wish his life on anyone he truly loved...it is a life of loss and death and being unloved forever. And I don't think he would want that for Rose. Nor, honestly, do I think Rose would want that for herself...other than to just be with him forever...and they would both change and grow apart one day so it wouldn't really give them that...as the Doctor said...a Time Lord would become a vengeful god given the power Rose wielded...but she was a healer...and so very human.

Sorry...I should put this in another post...rather than rant to you.

My point is...you are right...Rose has what it takes to be a Time Lord...but so does Donna. I think that the Doctor will find he must divide and make Rose the Time Lord...but instead...at the last minute...he will find Donna is willing to sacrifice all that she is to have the ability to travel the stars forever, too...not really caring if it is WITH HIM...in the same way that Rose cares. Rose loves his hair...she wants to touch him...she wants to bear his children. But Donna wants to sort of...be him.

Rae

[bonhomie-13.livejournal.com]

I don't think Rose could ever change from being Rose. Jackie said she would, but we still see that she's the same person in this episode, after all this time. Yes, she's changed slightly ... some people are saying that she's become hard, but she hasn't. She carries a gun in these couple of episodes - but it's not like she has all that much of a choice ... kill the Daleks with a super-massive-mega-giant-hell-of-a-gun or watch the universes (multiple) perish.

Rose adapts. She doesn't flat out change, I think. You can see it in the look she gives Donna when she asks about her relationship with the Doctor. It's such an open and innocent look ... it's the Rose we know. And even though she knows that she has to get on with the job to save the world and get Donna's timeline fixed, she still has to stop herself from rushing over and helping Donna - comforting her. She's still such a compassionate person, after all she's been through.

So, my point is that Rose will always - even if she becomes a Time Lady - ALWAYS be so very human. You can't change that. That's who she is, so I think that becoming his equal, so to speak, wouldn't really change the essence of Rose Tyler.

I agree with you, though. Donna has fallen in love with travelling the stars, while Rose has fallen in love with the Doctor ... but I'm not sure how well Donna would cope with Time-Lording her way through life. I'm not sure she has the right mindset ... ugh, I'm not putting this well. I know companions often struggle with the choices the Doctor HAS to make, but I think Donna would struggle even more so - she's such a strong character ... so stubborn and willful, and is out to enjoy what the universe has to offer, rather than setting her heart to bettering everything that needs it ... like the Doctor and Rose do.

I don't want to sound like a blind fan who just wants Rose to turn into a Time Lady and live happily ever after with the Doctor with several dozen time babies, but personally I think Rose would cope better with any alteration to herself better than the Doctor. Again, her character is so strong - she's always Rose, deep down, even if her surface traits and thoughts are morphing and developing (ahem, chanelling the Doctor last episode, anyone?). But we saw what happened to the Doctor when he became human ... he did not cope well - and I don't think he ever will. He became someone else. Yes, I know some of it was because of the way the fob watch worked, but, still...

Not to mention that he'd have an extremely short lifespan if he became human, the way he blindly throws himself around. :P lol.

And the Doctor may be unhappy in this life ... but that's because he's the last of his people, and he has to watch the people he loves wither and die (among other complicated things) ... but, if I may fandom-cliche-whore once more, "You know the thing you need most of all? You need a hand to hold." I think the Doctor and Rose will survive with each other, and more.

But I am a little optimistic and oh-so blissfully biased, so feel free to disregard anything that comes out of my mouth. :P

Cheers.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...I could certainly make a case for Rose never fundamentally changing...even faced with "forever" and multiple physical and personality changes of her and the Doctor. I did make that case in Disheveled. But you will also notice if you read back...that my fans had a very hard time dealing with the changes in outer form and personality. I was quite gentle compared to some random producer. Rose would be in the hands of Steven Moffat, you know.

We must realize that it would be very hard to duplicate Billie and David in some future actress/actor pairing. So the lovely idea that Rose becomes a Time Lady and they live happily ever after...remaking his race...is an end of the show idea. If the show is really ending...sure they might do that and satisfy us all. But if it is not...then I think that scenario leads to the Doctor and Rose breaking up and going their separate ways...and Rose becomes River...only meeting up with him from time to time.

I know you are asking why...and the reason is simple...nobody else...no other writer/producer will want to invest in an endless love story. That story has few places to go unless you send Rose away again. If Rose and the Doctor travel together...sooner or later conflict would have to arise...simply because they wouldn't be facing anything new.

I don't want to sound like I'm against your idea. Like I've said...I think Rose is all ready to Time Lord up and be his mate, too. I just think that in some ways it would be better for the Doctor to have a vacation from his entire life than to have another Time Lord around. Time Lords don't get along with one another...they are power mad. Given the Vortex to manipulate...they would become "vengeful gods" and I think Donna is very much like that...only she has a smidgeon more compassion than the old Time Lords.

You can't draw your line of what a Time Lord is like through the Doctor. He is the worst possible Time Lord imaginable. He is always trying to fix things that don't need fixing. Draw your line through The Master and you will see that Donna would be a big improvement on what you ordinarily get from a Time Lord.

And certainly, Rose would be willing to do the job...but like the Doctor...it would be a huge burden to her. Sure, she might be happy to be with him...but she would be suffering endlessly...like him. The Rose you see in Turn Left...is a Rose that is capable of taking on that burden. But she didn't look very happy about any of it. As you noted, she had so much compassion for Donna that it hurt her. Rose might be able to retain that compassion...but that would only mean that both SHE and the Doctor would suffer endlessly.

The True Time Lord...isn't really suffering in the work. And there is enough Time Lord in the Doctor that he could do the work if he had a bit of a rest now and then...but I think Rose would find it very, very hard to continually watch people die. Donna finds it hard, too. But she has a bit more detachment...she worries about herself first. She has that "the whole universe revolves around me" attitude...and yet, she knows when to stop.

We must remember, if I am right, she's in training...so she's going to get things wrong. But she did push that button on Pompeii and she does jump in front of the truck to die. I can see that she is afraid...but then, the Doctor is afraid a lot of times. It isn't that you are afraid or selfish that matters...it is that you can make the choices and live with yourself. I don't think Rose would be happy, is happy, making those choices. And I think it would be better for the Doctor, long term, if he could have a rest from making those choices.

Rose to me...is better as a human who understands him completely...than as a Time Lady. All that she is doing in Turn Left is showing how deeply she understands him...right down to the point where she is so very sorry for the woman she has to hurt. This is a deep understanding of the Doctor...not necessarily a deep need to become a Time Lord.

I basically think that what we are going to see is that everyone the Doctor ever touched carries some of him inside...but what he needs to carry more of us...be one of us for a time.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And one other little thing...about Rose not changing so much in Turn Left.

She isn't traveling with him. She's been cloistered with her family. Jackie said if she kept traveling with the Doctor, she'd keep changing. We might well say that you can look at the huge changes that even a little contact wrought on her...and see that it would be multiplied by a factor of 13 if she goes back to the Time Lord lifestyle.

And then...I don't really believe that the Doctor is only suffering because he's lost his people. He was alone when he had his people around...he didn't like them...he ran away from them...to Earth...to humans. And he carts a human around with him most of the time. He believes he can never have an oridinary life...and he longs for one. Even in the very first episode ever...he was trying to give Susan an oridinary human life.

Maybe he should have one. Maybe that is more important than having a Time Lady.

Rae

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

But is Rose still Rose? The Rose we all know and love?
I don't know...
Deep down, she still is. But then, look at the way she talks. So doctorish... and it looks like she can travel in time and space without a tardis now. And she could tell Donna that she had dreams about the Doctor. And she knew about the raffle ticket... just like she had been able to read Donna's mind.
Slightly psychic. Like the Tardis. Or a Time Lord....

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I think Rose is all set to be a Time Lord now. I just think that Donna will be the one to step into those shoes...so that the Doctor can have his normal life with Rose. Rose is also aligned to know all about HIS life...to have shared all his burdens.

It is simply shifting from no hope...Rose is the Doctor for an alternative reality and she and he are parted forever. To a hopeful end...Donna is the new Time Lord and so the Doctor and Rose are free to have a normal life.

Rae

[goldasfaith.livejournal.com]

I think I'm gonna cry.. I miss next weeks episode of DW. I've got my prom... life is just so unfair.

[firebird157.livejournal.com]

Hi, just a random LJ hopping Doctor Who fan here. Hope you don't mind me commenting.

I absolutely love this theory. It makes a load of sense. There's a similar - but different - theory going round the place where I work. I (and several fans of my aquaintance) were wondering if Donna will turn out to have a long forgotten pocket watch (or similar trinket) in her possession. Especially since rumours abound that RTD intends to undo the changes he's wrought for the handover to Moffet, and both times Gallifrey was destroyed in the spinoff media it came back eventually as I recall.

Anyway your theory explains with such clarity why the Doctor was so determined to keep the Master alive. He knew that he was going to need another Timelord at some point and quite apart from not wanting to Timelord up Rose he thought she was inaccessible.

Becky

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I don't mind you commenting...at all. Welcome to the Rose-lovefest.

Hee

Anyway...that idea about the watch...I addressed that a bit back...about Donna being the long lost "wife" character...who I called "The Rani." See, the Rani is who I would say the Doctor was married to in Old School...and she had redhair in all of her regenerations. So...Donna could still have a pocket watch...and Martha could recognize it. Giving Martha something important to do in the finale, too. Though I wonder if her medical training and position at UNIT won't come into play again.

Rae