Why I'm a Rose/Doctor shipper? S4 episode 9 spoilers again

[rabid1st]

There's an old racing saying: horses for courses. It means there are tracks that simply suit a particular horse and the horse will often win there when he or she won't win anywhere else. And I think that can be applied to the Doctor Who viewer as well...there are companions for fans..Doctors for fans, too.

One of these days...probably quite soon...we will all get tired of my DW babbling. :grin:

But, for now, let me say, I never really warmed to Doctor #6 or Doctor #2 and I wasn't a huge fan of the legendary Tom Baker. I liked Five and Three and I loved Nine and Ten. I didn't like Adric or Nyssa or Turlough. I liked Tegan. I thought she was spunky and took no lip. She was also childish and obnoxious at times, but that didn't bother me so much. I liked Leela, she took no prisoners. And she managed to shake the Doctor up a bit.

For decades in Old School the Doctor had companions like Martha or Mickey or Jack...people he inspired to live better lives. Rose Tyler was like that in S1. She started out a sort of childish, impulsive girl. One who was quite obnoxious at times and rude to her mom and Mickey and even the Doctor. But she grew into a person who had learned, "a better way to live your life" by the end of S1...and like the Doctor kept saying...she wouldn't ask him to just run away...she's not like that...and that is something the Doctor and I admire in her.

As a love interest...some people like Martha with her selfless devotion to a hopeless cause...some of those people believe Martha's true and enduring love should be rewarded. Or, perhaps, they feel that her love is its own reward. I don't get that. I would find constant declarations of devotion from people I don't love rather alarming and unsettling. So, my sympathies were all with Ten in that scenario.

People like Moffat, who write of amazing women who have so much to occupy them that they are content to have the "love of their life" visit them from time to time because they understand he's a busy man, a "lonely angel" or a "magnificent god who can stop armies with a glance"...these women don't really need anything from the Doctor but the prestige of him. He's a treasure who treasures them. I don't think any person should be a grandious title...something you wear like an ornament. And I think love is a give and take sort of thing that demands you spend a certain amount of time with people. I have to wonder what the Doctor's compromise was with River...was it just showing up now and then, coming when she called him?

I couldn't run that course...River's course or Martha's. I couldn't be Martha pining away in the face of indifference. I couldn't be River or Reinette treasuring a few days here and there and a picnic or dance with my beloved God figure when our paths cross. I wouldn't find that fulfilling enough.

I could take Rose's course though...even though it is long and painful. Rose asked for things and the Doctor gave her every sign he meant to deliver whatever she asked for..."I can do anything. Your wish is my command" and "How long are you going to stay with me again?" and "I'd have to settle down, buy a house, a proper house." Rose gets to know him, rather insists on knowing him and grows around him, not away from him. At every obstacle they find a way to grow closer.

As she matures she becomes more and more comfortable with his life and who he is...she's willing to stay with him forever (not the way Donna is...out of a short association...but from a very long one). Rose knows the Doctor very well when she promises him forever...she knows what she's getting into. Rose understands the Doctor and likes him...they don't bicker, she doesn't find him difficult at all. She finds him adorable. And they try to understand one another, they both compromise. Her family was important to her so he learned to be domestic. This is in stark contrast to every other companion. And it is what I expect of a love relationship. I expect it to be an equal partnership. I expect a "true love" to be cosetted and to coset. I expect a "true love" to be supportive but also find support. I expect "true love" to be understanding as it is open to being understood.

I would never accept a lover who just dropped in and out of my life as relevant to my life. Rose is my idea of "one true love" because she embodies a love I can respect. I think that Martha or River or Reinette or Jack...must embody characteristics that their fans respect...and the nice thing about Doctor Who is...sooner or later...your course comes around and you win. At least, I hope my course has come around. I'm certainly taking my run at it. :LOL:

Comments

[webeh.livejournal.com]

I would never accept a lover who just dropped in and out of my life as relevant to my life.

I think that's an interesting comment you made here. To have a romantic relationship with the Doctor, you can't be the stay-at-home type and let him visit whenever he wishes. It's not fair to or healthy for either party. If that's how the relationship is structured, it's definitely going to end in disappointment. To be with the Doctor, the person has to be able to accept (and live with) that the Tardis will be their permanent home.

You know, Doctor/Rose is the only couple I've actively shipped on this show. While I absolutely adore Martha, I loved her the best when she was acting independently of the Doctor. That's when she shined the most. Whereas, Ten/Rose were very much written to function best as a unit.

And on that note, I do think it's really too bad that Billie left when she did. Why? Because I feel that this is the season where David has finally got a total grasp on his character. After three years in this role, he's ironned out the kinks and knows what works/what doesn't. It would have been nice to see how the relationship would be protrayed now.

[webeh.livejournal.com]

You're really on a role. I was away for one day and you've posted lots. I can see that you're looking forward to Billie's reappearance. :)

To quote the Doctor...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

"Yeah!"

:BIG GRIN:

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...we are going to see that...for a couple of episodes, I think. I would like it to be long term. I have a feeling that Rose is basically still keeping up with him. That she's having the same issues he's had...and added some of her own...but I think they will still mesh up nicely. And any chance to see Billie and David kicking the Rose/Ten love back and forth should rock.

Rae

[webeh.livejournal.com]

I'm really curious what the chemistry will be like now. But, I am worried that the episodes might be a little crowded. I'm assuming that Donna will be present as well as Rose. And judging on what things were like when both Martha/Donna were around, the characters were a bit underwritten.

But then, the Doctor/Martha/Jack threesome seemed to work out last season. Both companions had some really strong moments. Maybe everything will be okay.

[kellywiag.livejournal.com]

hello all *waves*, I was just wondering what poelples thoughts were on whether Moffat was pro Ten and Rose... might be lighting the blue touch paper here and atanding back to watch the fireworks. Just a wee thought that has been plodding thorugh my mind with the recent episodes here with the prof song ect.... I do like the episodes he has written. Giving us such super baddies, gas mask kid, the statues and the vastha nerada. But I do wonder where he will go in the future...

I know that this is not terribly relavent to the thead here but I love how peoples minds here work, please delete this Rae if it has been previously talked about here. Hope all is well with you and yours.
kelly x

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

No...I think that Moffat believes the Doctor to be so magnificent that he only spends a few moments of his time with a woman if he is dazzled by her extraordinary qualities. Moffat tends to create two types of female characters...there is the child virginal mother figure...Sally Sparrow and Nancy fall into this category and the whore...Reinette and River fall into this category.

These are literary types...and it doesn't mean that the woman is actually a whore (like Reinette) or a virginal mother (like Nancy) it only means that she is compliant to the wishes of the male not to be threatened in any way. River seems to challenge him but in ever facet of her being she is as pathetic as Reinette. She worships Her Doctor...because he's a god figure...he opens doors with a snap of his fingers...he stares down armies...he knows so much and he comes by and sees her when he can spare a moment.

This is the female figure as well...constantly devoted and admiring of the male...constantly at his disposal whenever he stops by...this is why it is called the Mother/Whore figure...because those are the women who are like that. Men who crave this sort of thing are usually powerful men who feel that their time is so important...their place in the world is so grand that no one person deserves to have their full attention.

I am of the opinion that healthy women would very soon tire of such treatement and dump a man, no matter how magnificent he was, if he treated her like a mother/whore figure. If he wanted her there at his whim. Even coming when she called him and giving River the idea that she is special to him (she is special...that's why she dazzled him...in this sort of arrangement that's all a women can do...dazzle) doesn't offset the idea that he is too much for her.

So...does Moffat like Rose...well...Rose is ordinary...and her relationship with the Doctor is very complex and based on true intimacy, the sort that built over a long period of living together. Rose knows the Doctor because she lived with him and he shared his real self with her. Rose is proud of him...of his accomplishments. We can see that pride in her when she confronts the Daleks and we can see that in her when she smiles across at him after he's been brilliant. But when Rose talks about the Doctor...she talks about his pain, his loneliness and his inner being. She never talks about what he can give her. She never says things like "you gave me your screwdriver or your name to prove you loved me."

She knows he loves her. Because she knows him.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

As to if Moffat is a Rose/Doctor fan, I don't think from what I've seen of his work...that's he is capable of understanding or writing such a give and take complex relationship. He probably is not a fan...because his idea of the Doctor is the Doctor given the slavish devotion in voiceover by his Mary Sue. Compare that voiceover to the one Rose gives in Doomsday and you will easily see the difference in emotional depth.

Adding a tiny bit to the evidence

[(Anonymous)]

I must sadly, angrily, bitterly concur with Rae, especially since he has stated that he was of the opinion that Ten should not have cried from he said goodbye to Rose. >=(

Re: Adding a tiny bit to the evidence

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

And that was me, who forgot to sign in. =P

Re: Adding a tiny bit to the evidence

[webeh.livejournal.com]

Moffatt said that? I don't understand the statement. The Doctor is supposed to be a character that loves a lot. So, tears of sadness are to be expected.

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

"One of these days...probably quite soon...we will all get tired of my DW babbling"
Oh no! Never! I agree with all you said. And I so hope RTD will give Ten & Rose their happy ending. Both of them (and us, patient fans) deserve it!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I do, too. One of the things this Moffat episode does very well...is to reassure the fans who aren't in this for the romance that their producer will soon take over. River isn't threatening to their wonderful Doctor at all. And she implies that whatever happens with Rose will be temporary.

Rae

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

It all boils down to whether you see the ideal mate as a mistress or a wife, seems to me. The "mistress" model appears more liberated but I wonder if that's an illusion cherished by males, so they don't have to acknowledge the consequences of their self-centered behaviour.

It seems to me that if River is indeed his future on-off partner, his reaction to that news indicated that right now he'd rather have a wife.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Cat! I think, I hope, that you have just put your finger on exactly why RTD likes Moffat. And why I think Moffat is an okay guy to helm the next phase of Doctor Who, too. I don't like Moffat getting his hands on Ten. I don't like the idea of his ladies' man Doctor. As I think Ten needs a wife not a mistress. I don't see him ever being satisfied with that sort of shallow relationship. Ten is the emotionally deepest Doctor we've ever seen.

And while the idea of a mistress is very appealing to males...it really isn't all that satisfying. Actually many males with mistresses also have wives so they can get deeper emotional understanding and trust while also getting a leg over with a dazzling bint who, not knowing them very well, sees only their grandness.

I think RTD knows about Moffat's tendencies...he knows him very well...so he basically can let him create this future and past for the Doctor that is full of sexual adventure and beautiful women. I mean...look at what is said in Moffat episodes. In the Doctor Dances we have the idea that he's "danced"...and "I've traveled with a lot of people in my time" and in GitF we have that dropping in and out of the life of the dazzling courtesan and being her "lonely angel", the one person save the king that she has ever loved...despite really not knowing the Doctor at all. We have Mickey reminding Rose of the Doctor's affair with "Cleopatra." In Blink we have the Doctor saying that he's had Weddings...plural...and they were rubbish. This added to the Tooth & Claw reference that you can only be happy if your wife is away...is all pointing to the idea that magnificent men shouldn't be tied-down in anyway.

But we have RTD making the Doctor more and more domestic as we go along. The Doctor protests...but he still gets more and more wrapped around Rose Tyler's finger...more and more integrated with her family. I think RTD uses Moffat to put the Doctor back into his pre-Rose and post-Rose context. The very fact that Moffat's women have no real relevance to the Doctor plays well in the RTD view that only Rose has relevance. And there is no way, I think, that RTD would imagine someone like River Song being "the love of the Doctor's life." RTD would find such a relationship completely unsatisfying, I think. To him, and it looked like to David Tennant's understanding of the Doctor as well...it's not what the Doctor needs at all.

Rae

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

I think Ten and Rose had some bickering, like the bucket colour exchange at the beginning of Love & Monsters. The point to stress is that when an issue was mentioned, they were prepared to make compromises to work it out. The unfortunate thing of Ten/Rose is that things were rarely discussed, because it was painful for him to talk about and she didn't want to hurt him. Take the single mention "I was a Dad once." They kept the larger issues at bay so they could enjoy what time they had, which turned out to be quite short so bigger issues never had to come up.

I think there are many good comparisons between Donna and Rose. The small details, the compassion, the company, the non-God view. Donna is good for him because she cares about him but knows it's unhealthy for him to bottle stuff up, like Jenny, so she will confront him when it comes up and make him happier in the long term. But Rose, he loves in a way that he can't move on from yet. The over-riding thing for both Rose and Ten is that they miss each other to the point they are looking for a way to get together again.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Right! Exactly, Biscuit. I think that when you are dealing with someone that will live on and on...like the Doctor...the issue of his loving a human, truly being unable to let go of her...when he knows he will have to one day...is a very important issue. They have touched on it in canon several times. And the whole concept of the Beast saying Rose would die...and the Doctor's response...which was "Then, he lied." Plays into that...the Doctor can't bear for her to die...it is better to have her locked away from him in another universe than to face losing her...or so he USED to think. I'm not sure he still thinks that.

In a way, River is the sort of relationship he would normally have, perhaps. Not a true love relationship, but one of convenience. Which is not to say he doesn't admire River, care for her, love her even. But he loves her in a way that doesn't require as much from him as Rose requires.

As for the bickering...the bucket thing is a good one...or the fight over her Father...which was when she made a huge blunder...that the Doctor tries desperately not to offset in the logical manner of telling Pete he has to die. There is another place, too, where she gets irritated with him or he is irritated with her. But they didn't really bicker as a rule. They didn't snipe at one another.

Rose tells him off from time to time and he yells at her, but I don't think she ever "hated him sometimes." The key to Rose is the one he give Martha in The Shakespeare Code...the same one he told Ida Scott. Rose would know.

You want to talk delightful...that voiceover of Rose's compared to the one of River's. Rose says..."And then I met a man called the Doctor...and he took me away in his magical machine..." and then they have forever. It wasn't all about her lonely angel or god figure or anything else...it was about "a man."

I think that what we see of the Doctor in Old School and what is underlined with Reinette and River and Sarah Jane and Jack is that time and space between the Doctor and his companions has always cured him of his deeper attachment to them. It's given him the grander perspective.

But as you say...he's not ready to move on from Rose. Because what he needs from Rose is something deeper that only she can provide. He needs her to "just know."

Rae

You know how I feel about this...

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

This true love you are describing has been my own experience within my marriage, and so it goes without saying why I would choose Rose and her way toward love. Which makes it really hard for me to empathize or comprehend Martha's reasons for pining away like she did, or River's contentment with being a mere pit stop in time for her magnificent god/"lover", or Jack's seeming ability to be in love with multiple people at the same time. Maybe this works for other people - I don't know. I only know that I could never be fulfilled like that, and I can only feel sorry for these people in the long run.

This is the thing...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...if that is all the Doctor will ever know...that shallow experience...then I end up feeling sorry for him. And the people living that life may well feel sorry for you and I because they think we don't understand the expansive freedom they enjoy.

I posted this because I feel there is a place in the grand scope of a show like Doctor Who for the Doctor to have both kinds of loves...the ones that he leaves behind or comes back to and the one to whom he was able to commit. My hope, is that Rose is the one to whom he will be able to commit.

Rae

And there, in a nutshell, is why romance...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...probably has no place in the format of Doctor Who as a series. Because no matter how you slice it, someone ends up feeling disappointed in and sorry for the Doctor.

And I do feel we should be less attached to him than RTD has made us with this Rose/Doctor love story and all the angst.

So...paradoxically...I sort of agree with Moffat that the Doctor shouldn't have cried...as in, he never should have been so exposed for us. I believe it is better to have loved. But probably to work for a very long time...from now on (post Rose I mean)...the Doctor shouldn't care enough for anyone that he cries.

Rae

Re: And there, in a nutshell, is why romance...

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

But see, that's the thing. I am happy that they showed us that exposed side of him. I don't think he/the show could have continued on as he was, someone alien and ultimately detatched. It was getting cold and clinical. I think some of the best moments of the show is when the Doctor has shown his vulnerability or humaness. The First Doctor sitting alone in the TARDIS after Steven storms out, lamenting that none of them understood, not even sweet little Susan. The Third sitting outside in his car, looking sadly on toward the brightly lit windows where Jo's engagement/going away party was in full swing. And again in the Big Finish plays, with Six overcome with guilt and grief for the deaths of two innocent lovers, so soon after Cassie's death, to the point where he is seriously considering going back and altering history to change it (Arrangements for War).

This is just to name a few of those times when I think the Doctor's story became the most real, those moments when the audience can at last and truly empathize with the main character. If the Doctor doesn't learn to cry every once in a while, how can we, the audience, ever learn to identify with him? Which, after all, is the whole purpose of a well written main character. Certainly not to have us crying all the time, which Ten has had us doing a good deal, it's true. But at least now we know he can and does feel that deeply. If we had never had that moment with the Doctor in tears over Rose or the Master, we could never know for certian that he cared about them enough to want, to need to cry.

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across here coherently or eloquently, but I'm sure you understand where I am getting at. If Moffat decides to return to the Doctor that likes to distance himself to see the bigger picture, that's perfectly fine. Because at least we now already know that he can love and feel sorrow and pain just like the rest of us, which in the end helps us to understand in some way why the alien does what he does.

I do know what you are saying about those moments

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...of deeper emotion. That scene over Jo Grant was one of my personal favorites. And there is the way he rushes after Tegan with his "No, don't go, not like this." The little cracks in the armor that were so valuable to us because of the general stoicism.

I think the Doctor's story has become very real for the audience now...because of Ten's overt emotional outbursts and the way David conveys his tightly reined in passions, too. I think though that part of the reason the show lasted so long in Old School was that there was a level of detachment to it all. Maybe we would have wanted Romana and Four together if Four had been as open with his feelings as Ten has been.

The reason I think that romance, in general, isn't something they should do with the Doctor is because it creates a longing for a particular outcome and sets up companions and Doctors to fail when they take on the roles. It is going to be very hard for anyone to step into David Tennant's shoes...but imagine how it will be if we don't get our happy Rose Reunion...if we are asked to accept that there's a new Doctor and he's going to go bouncing on to a new love and companion. It isn't just that all stories blend into one another...as we keep getting told..."One song ends and another begins." That song has to end...it needs an ending. And that ending might not have to be uniformily unhappy and disappointing. My feeling is you can't just drop people into limbo anymore on this show.

You can't have an emotionally available Doctor and then deny that Doctor any peace or happiness...and expect that you are going to retain your audience for another ten years.

Rae

Wow, I was kinda speechless for a moment there...

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

So let's make sure we are both on the same page.

Okay, I think we can both agree here that Doctor Who cannot run on romance. Heck, nothing would make me happier than to have Rose be the exception to the rule and to have the Doctor become as asexual as he had been in the Classic series. I'm just arguing for the emotion of that specific moment in Doomsday that you mentioned the Doctor should not have cried during, to which I must heartily object for the reasons above. (And because he loved her, dang it, and wouldn't anyone cry if they were in his place? ^_~ )

As to the Doctor being always emotionally available, I agree that it would set up a lot of future shippers for the fall and it should end with Ten. I think the romance angle was nice while it lasted with Rose, but nothing has been irritating me more in New Who than the constant kissing of companions and non-companions alike. It's the same reason I thumb my nose at the Eighth Doctor movie.

I'm not saying to get rid of the Doctor's emotional response all together since, as I have said, those moments where the cracks in the armour show will always be my favourite. But I think it'll only work if such displays are few and far in between. I think Nine and Ten only got away with it because of the very obvious damage done by the Time War and subsequently losing Rose. Once we get our happy ending there, however, I think it'll finally be time to set aside romance and sensitivity for the Doctor for a long time to come.

I would say we are on the exact same page

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Page #904, to put a number to it.

:snicker:

I am saying that for that particular moment in the story that RTD was telling that it was perfectly right for his Doctor, Ten, to shed that tear...also perfectly right for him not to weep openly at the wall (because that was a moment that almost transcended the idea of weeping).

However, Moffat is correct in the idea that the Doctor as an institiutional figure should not cry over departed companions. Nor really over anything. Moffat, you see, doesn't get Rose/Doctor love...he doesn't understand why the Doctor loves Rose...or even about love in this pure form that is full of mutual respect and support. Moffat would never concieve of any woman being the Doctor's equal. And the closest he can come is the Whore/Mother figure.

But he is still okay to helm the show because that very childish attitude toward women has it's roots in a particular fear: the fear that your parents might not be there for you when you need them. That your parents can be hurt and there is nothing they can do to stop it. Seeing the Doctor cry is like seeing one of your parents cry...it undercuts your confidence in him and in the world.

The main reason we should never have another Rose Tyler is because romance of the "one true love" sort demands too much from our hero. It distracts him and detracts so very much from the action/adventure ideal of the show that we become torn as viewers. That very romantic sensitivity that Ten exhibits demands that we have a happy-for-her-lifetime reunion with Rose.

It doesn't compute for anyone, not even Moffat, that the Doctor could love someone and lose her forever. He's the DOCTOR! That he could be such a magnificent creature, a heroic figure for girls and boys everywhere, and also be so hurt and alone and sad and lost. That plays okay for jaded adults but it is very traumatic for children.

The reason the Doctor lingers in the minds of kids everywhere is that they want to BE him. Not too many people wanted to be the companions of old...with the possible exceptions of Leela and Jamie. But nobody wants to be a sad, lonely, lost and lovelorn person. That's not an ideal to which we aspire as children.

So, to sum up...I think once we get our happy ending with Rose it will be time to set romance and sensitivity aside for the Doctor for a long time to come...and hand the reins over to a man who thinks the Doctor should never cry.

Rae

You have just achieved the impossible...

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

You've made a pretty good argument for Moffat as new head producer. I didn't think anyone could do that!

If he can knock it off with the constant Mary Sue love interests cropping up in his stories, and so long as he NEVER contradicts RTD's canon or that the Doctor did indeed love Rose, I don't think I will mind him taking over at all. But then, that is a big "IF". =P

P.S. Never saw the Doctor as a parental figure myself, but it does make an interesting point. Kinda squicks me since I've personally been comparing him with the husband for some time now, but I can see how people might unconsciously think of him like that from the olden days of yore. And nobody should have to watch their parents cry.

Glad I could help...I think

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

You are making the mistake of looking at the show through adult eyes. Have you never wondered why RTD constantly throws up his hands and yells about how he hates children's television and wants to escape it?

He does that because Doctor Who is a children's show. We may see that it isn't and RTD may not have written it that way. But the BBC definitely likes it in the kiddie show arena...that's where they market it and that's what parents are complaining about when they complain (and they do) about the sexual innuendo ruining the show.

And to be honest the show does have a lot of 8 and 9 year old fans. Go look at the Fear Factor part of the official website and you will see this is still considered a children's show and the Doctor is a parental figure. Or at the very least...the figure the kids want to be when they grow up. It has nothing at all to do with the golden days of yore...other than people with kids watched the show when THEY were kids and don't want to think of it ever changing.

Rae
who also thinks of the Doctor as husband material but only because RTD had no problem convincing me he'd be good at it.

Re: Glad I could help...I think

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

Thing is, I did watch it (some of it) as a kid. It was Seven and Ace, and I always associated the Doctor with a teacher. I was actually a little scared of him. Not the sort if thing to inspire a paternal image of him in my head.

I know it's a kids show, and I have enjoyed rewatching it as a kids show because I'm just into that sort of thing (Jim Henson, Narnia, etc). The fact that it is a kids show is largely why I showed the series, even the classic episodes, to my kid brother, because I knew he'd enjoy it even with the low-budget effects. I just don't think that if I turned to him and asked him, "Does he act like/remind you of a papa?" that he'd respond with an affirmative. He's an adventurer, the hero who can figure things out and saves the day. And yeah, the kids should want to grow up to be like him because he's epic, legendary, like Superman and the like. But not a father figure. Not in my household at least.

P.S. Being that it is a kids show, I too am concerned with the type of message they are sending to kids with all the kissing and sexual innuendo. I've always felt that television and movies have set a poor example of what a realistic, healthy relationship between adults is supposed to be like. One thing I loved about the Doctor/Rose ship was that it was showing on TV for the first time in recent memory a loving, happy relationship based on friendship and equality, not pure lust and drama. I guess I'm an old fashioned prude, because I just don't see there being any place for the Doctor kissing so many people besides Rose. Not on a kids show. Especially if said kids are subconsciously comparing the Doctor to Dad. I mean, who would want to see their dad snogging random women, besides their mother?

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

I could babble about DW for hours. Its a good escape.

Another thing Rose had over the other companions is that she didn't pine for him like Jack or Martha did (or Sarah Jane still does.) She knew if he wanted her he'd come on his own terms, which is why he was more of himself around her. She was his best friend always, even when he hurt her with Reinette. She was and still is what he needed. A lover and a friend. Someone who'd give him enough space to move about and make up his mind. Martha couldn't do that and Jack just got tired of waiting.(although I sometimes wonder if he's still hopeful)Sarah Jane, just came about at the wrong time and I think the Doctor felt he damaged her a little too much.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I know...lots of people go on about how she was trying to "trap him" or something...but she never pressed him for anything. She asked for things but let him decide to give them or not. A good case in point of this is when her mum wanted him to come to dinner and he refused. He told Rose not to try to make him domestic. Yet, later, he not only has Christmas Dinner with her family but also gets the "son-in-law" kisses from Jackie.

And we can't just say, "Oh, that's because he's Ten and Ten is domestic" because Ten turned down Donna's invitation to Christmas Dinner saying he doesn't do that sort of thing. He doesn't...he did it with Rose...because Rose was his sweetheart.

Rae

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

As crazy as this sounds, I only saw Doomsday for the second time ever last night. I was so traumatized by it the first time that it literally took years before I could put myself through Army of Ghosts/Doomsday again.

And you know what? Rewatching that episode, it is so obvious that Rusty is not only going to give us a Rose/Ten lifetime, but a child as well. Ten will truly get "the one adventure [he] can never have." Just look at Pete/Jackie reunited in a way that should never have been possible and getting their second chance. RTD is going to give us exactly what we need.

Your course is coming, Rae. Secretariat is coming up 20 odd lengths ahead and is coming home.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well, all I can say is that the show could take a left turn into makes no sense...but...the throughline on this story has been consistent since Father's Day. When the Doctor first expressed the desire for "the life he had never had" and believed he "never could have" and there was Rose, who only had to tell him she was sorry to be forgiven for destroying time and space.

I was a shipper and I watched it go straight along...every obstacle overcome...except the final one...that he just doesn't believe he can or deserves to have some time off. I actually think he would do it though...for Rose. If he comes to understand that if he leaves Rose alone...she's going to take on the universe on her own. He might well decide SHE is the person he needs to be taking care of...not the Master.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And you mention Pete/Jackie got their second chance...and they act as a sort of foil for Rose and the Doctor in that episode. I mean, say he does decide to settle with Rose somewhere. I can see her saying the, "I don't care about that" line.

"We won't be traveling across the stars."

"I don't care about that."

"We might be living a very boring life."

"I don't care about that. How boring? No, I don't care about that."

What I loved about that exchange in the hallway was that part where Jackie tells Pete, "There was never anyone else." Mickey rolls his eyes but the Doctor glances at Rose. And I think that's because the Doctor understands what Jackie means. He's had wives and lovers before Rose. But, in that moment, glancing toward Rose, he fully understands how a person could have a thousand companions/lover/wives...whatever...and yet, know there was "never anyone else." Rose is, I hope and believe, the Doctor's ONE TRUE LOVE...the love that is going hold her place in his heart for his entire life.

Rae