Speculation about the name thing...Doctor Who...S4-9 spoilers

[rabid1st]

So...we all know what we are supposed to assume...and we are out in droves assuming it.

Let's talk about writing skill...and foreshadowing...and season arcs.

We are coming to a fork in the road. We are coming to the end of a song. We are wrapping up RTD's storyline...the saga of the Doctor and Rose. We are coming to a change in paradigm. Who will the Doctor of the future be? Same old carefree guy? Lonely angel? War-scarred wanderer? James Bond with his Bond-girl companions and interesting gadgets?

Apparently, the Doctor told River his name. And we are supposed to think...WIFE! because that is one of our arc words. And because of all she's said about knowing him intimately and because of the "old married couple" thing. But there are spoilers...something about the Doctor's future that leaves him reeling.

And I can't help thinking about what would make the Doctor look so very devastated and why River would apologize for telling him his name if it only meant that she was very special to him. He says there is only one time when he would have to give her his name...when it was allowed...but we know he's been married before...and might have given his name there (though, no Biscuit, not to the Registry Office).

I think that time has been with us all season...not the WIFE part...the breeding part.

What if River is telling him they've got children together? "You can trust me because I'm the mother of your children." What if he has to name his children? So their mother has to know his real name...then what the Doctor is learning and what River is apologizing for is that he has a family again and she can't tell him WHY or HOW he gets it because if she does...it could spoil things? He would then be very, very careful to heed her warning about "not changing one line."

And I feel that this is definitely tied-in to Rose...because River offers this hope...but I feel Rose is the path to fulfilling it. The Doctor must agree at some point to start interbreeding with humans. Sex in the TARDIS...becomes a reality with Rose Tyler.

As, I think, I've said all along. :chortle: So I am only finding my own thread in the weave here...and not really learning anything. But, as I've said before...if we are going to establish that the Doctor CAN love a companion and CAN breed with humans...that he is the father of a new species of human/gallifreyan Time Lords...we need to do that with Rose Tyler. He needs to make that choice to have that life...to have a family again, knowing that he will lose the one he loves. We need to show that his life CAN change and involve more intimate involvement with the companions from time to time.

It never has to come to this again...he doesn't have to have a series of companion/mistresses...for the eventual possiblity to be there when the canon is established. River alone isn't enough to convince, but she might be enough added in with everything else this season to allow the Doctor to see he can go to Rose, live a life with her, give her children and then move on after she's gone. This may be his path to fulfillment...loving them even if they are going to leave him one day.

Editted to say: That it is, of course, equally possible River is his child, rather than a mother of his children...and that take allows for her to go on to a happy life. There would be a slightly icky overtone to that...as she is presented as a lover...but they never actually do anything lover-like...the dates could be happy times together. So, maybe the look they both give the "old married couple" guy is...a family vibe thing for both of them. Certainly, in context...that comment leads to the naming and/or the idea of trusting her. And the naming is full of pain for him...full of things he must know and doesn't dare ask.

Comments

[grbggrl.livejournal.com]

He says there is only one time when he would have to give her his name...when it was allowed...but we know he's been married before...and might have given his name there (though, no Biscuit, not to the Registry Office).

You seem to be taking it as he can only say it once in his entire lifetime? Is that an accurate interpretation? Because I just took it to mean he can only do it during one event. So yeah, like his wedding...any wedding, but only when he is actually marrying someone. So he could tell hundreds of people...if he gets married a hundred times. Something like that.

ugh.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

That isn't how I'm taking it...I'm taking it as you say...only in one instance. Like marriage. But it doesn't have to be marriage just because of the context setting up the audience to think that.

Right...he could have told a hundred people...if he married a hundred people...but...then...it might not hold as much weight as it seems to in this episode.

She could be anybody he'd married...or, as Nightbeast assumes, any one at the registry office. I was going with a little more exclusiveness because she uses it to gain his trust. And he seems to think it is a big deal.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And no...I am not assuming that he would only say it once in his lifetime. I'm actually assuming that at this point in his life...he can't imagine ever saying it to anyone again. This would mean either...he loves Rose so much that having lost her he intends to never love again.

Or...that he assumes that whatever meaning is involved with names...wouldn't come up again. To me...that says...family...breeding. And THAT would devastate him...just the same way Jenny shook him up. But the happy side of that is...it also leads us to Rose...to the idea that he CAN have a happy life with a family with a human.

Rae

[bubbles234.livejournal.com]

I suck at commenting to long posts as I tend to get distracted by one particular thing. In this case it was this:

"That it is, of course, equally possible River is his child" because I squicked so much. simply because of:
"Why do you have handcuffs?!"
"Spoilers ;)"

That made me squick anyway, so it's about 10x worse for me if she's his child.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

You are assuming then that "handcuffs" is a sexual innuendo?

It might not be. It might be something completely innocent.

But there was a lot of sexual innuendo, it seems...so yes, I don't think they mean to say she was his child.

Though it could be if they explain things. She had the squareness gun because Jack apparently left it in the TARDIS when he died.

Rae

[(Anonymous)]

I know this may sound a little creepy, but what if she's Jenny? Yes, I am well aware that Jenny didn't change faces at when she regenerated, but I don't believe that RTD would forget that character.
I've also thought of Susan and Romana. The reaction to his own name could be that he could only give his name when there was a Gallifrey. In which case, she may not be a companion strictly from his future. She may be spread out through out his time line. A friend that he could always trust, not a lover.
For some reason, I don't buy them as lovers. It's the little things. She didn't travel with him for a single block of time the way Rose, Martha, Donna, etc. did. He leaves her behind and visits. It could be because he knows the end of her story and it hurts him to know. All her notebook shows it that he tried to give her what she wanted because of that. She wants him to love her, but she never says he actually does.
I think all of this ties to Donna's fate. Donna will never live a full life with anyone. (I'm sorry, she's dying or maybe she switches places with Rose in the alternate universe.) She is a sacrifice. The Doctor sees that RIver is a sacrifice. They are the same kind of character. Both compared as wives of the Doctor's and neither are. Both are too damn emotional. Neither has children.
Maybe he can only tell her his name, if he is trying to tell himself that this future is unchangeable. He will always fight that. It's not a gift for her, it is a message to himself. (Bad Wolf anyone?)
Or maybe, I'm completely insane.
Sorry for rambling! Again...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

No...I agree...I thought if she was his lover there was no way she was "love of his life" material...and it was even a little sad. Because, as you note, she's just not really part of his life. Even her little gift of the screwdriver wasn't real...it was a message. So, when I heard that the director was told to direct this as if "she could be the love of his life"...I was all...hmmm? I wonder why?

Donna is going to be sacrificed...yes, I'm pretty sure of that...and I too am sorry about it. But it was in the cards from the moment she came back...from the moment she refused to go with him, in fact.

Rae
liking the cut of your rambling jib.

[karenor.livejournal.com]

Well, here's the thing. Normally I would love to go all in on WHAT CAN IT POSSIBLY MEAN, because I know RTD has a plan. I know Moffat doesn't. And he's not thinking of the future. And while he may have had a distinct idea of who River is in his head, I can't imagine it actually WILL impact the Doctor's future.

That said, if I do indulge... it could mean possibly ANYthing. Yes, wife is heavily implied, but really, it could mean any of a million things. It could mean mother or child (though I think the "hello sweetie" rather negates that).

Oh I was trying to think of a clever example here of what it could be, but i give up.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

The thing is...you are right, too. I seriously doubt that Moffat ever intends to address River again in canon. He is going to write stand-alone James Bondish episodes where women are lovely window dressing and the Doctor moves on. If there is meaning here...it comes from RTD and it was put forward in a single line of instruction...

Probably this one..."Give me a woman from the Doctor's future who could be the love of his life."

End of instruction.

And he gave that job to Moffat...because Moffat would write something that existed outside RTD's master plan. Something that would really make us wonder...RTD knows and so he would check his impulses to really make us wonder. I do not think this episode fits in the RTD plan anymore than I say it does above...he wanted us to think long term and...with the arc themes added in...family, breeding, transformation...endings and new beginnings.

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

Now thats the Rae I know!Clever girl you are!

[karenor.livejournal.com]

Well, who knows what's to be believed, but the Confidential says that RTD didn't even know about River's existence until he received the script for the episodes.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

OH...well...there you go then....it is even more of Moffat's Mary Sue...why even worry about it? Unless they are lying in the confidential. I never watch them so what do I know?

Only what people tell me.

Someone else told me the Director was told to direct the episode that was for River. And I'm saying...if that's the idea...then...there you go...one line is all you need. Still doesn't tell us much. But probably she's not THAT important to our Ten.

Rae

Names and arcs

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

There's an issue with River being his kid or their mother. Like marriage, the names of the parents have to be registered on a birth certificate. A bit of paper for everyone to read. Okay, if you're not married it's usually only the mother that is noted, but he's supposedly married to River and can't escape the legal heritage.

Another point of River having his children is presumably they have left home when we first see her. Otherwise I would have expected her to have been a bit more upset when she was dying because their Dad didn't know them when she died and can't tell them what happened to her.

So then we have to discuss human longevity in the 51st century, and apparently Strackman's youngest aunt on his father's side is over 100. How long would it take for kids to become independent? Plus, River's speech about 'the Doctor and his TARDIS' is a lonely one, when she's had little qualm about the spoiler rule about other aspects.

River appears to have no lineage from her, so the Doctor choosing to procreate with her in the knowledge he can never find his kids after her death doesn't make sense in a long term anti-loneliness plan.

I still think knowing the Doctor's name is bad, and little to do with marriage and procreation. He's not in the least bit happy to hear his name. Compare it to the 1/2 season trailer when hears that Rose is coming back: There is happiness mixed in there with the dread of the circumstances coming with it. Compare his detached reaction to Jenny which eventually leads to him opening up to that aspect of life again; something he's buried with the War. That's not his reaction to his name.

I'm going to talk about Jack's name. Jack's name is hidden (or is 'Son' and he's really embarrassed about it like Indiana Jones) possibly because he's emulating the Doctor. Surely he could have changed his name for living linearly for 100 years? But no, he sticks to the name he had when he first met the Doctor (to his memory), maybe as a way of honoring the man who taught him a better way of living. It may be that he is ashamed of the name he had when he lost his brother.

So, if these episodes do fit into continuity, what does River represent? The episodes already do fit into continuity - colonised planet, humans transformed (into data), someone taking the big decision away from the Doctor at the expense of their own life, the wife gag comparing River to Donna as a companion.

The only other thing that is regular about this season is characters (and the audience) knowing something important about the Doctor's future that he is yet to learn: Rose in 01, sooth-sayers in 02, your song will end in 03, (sorry I've forgotten 04 and 05), Jenny resurrecting in 06, possibly being the reason for the man in a brown suit in the Agatha Christie novels (that's meta). Now we have a woman who knows about the Doctor's future because she's from it.

Of course, we are reading too much into this. The clever Moffat writing means whatever despair the Doctor has over his name is highly unlikely to be the reason he tells River why he's telling her his name. That's the beauty of a self-fulfilling paradox.

Re: Names and arcs

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't it be interesting if the Doctor had meant to tell Rose his name in Doomsday - when we all assumed it was ILU? Frankly, I'll be amazed if Rose turns out to have been pregnant at that point but it would have been a way of him acknowledging any possible offspring...

It is so very in character for RTD to give us all a question we think we know the answer to, and then we turn out to have been wrong all along.

And I do love reading your speculations - they are not only creative but very beautifully written and somehow completely cynicism-busting.

Re: Names and love

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure he was going to say his name on the Doomsday beach. I still think he was going to say I love you, because in the Satan Pit he says "tell Rose, tell her I - oh, she knows." If it was his name he was going to say, and his name is not to be generally known, he wouldn't have passed his name through a proxy to Rose. If she already knows his name, and she can only know if he tells her, why tell her again?

I think he wants to say I love you in the Satan Pit because he has doubts they will see each other again. This idea holds true on the Doomsday beach. But if it is his name he wanted to say, and that's the only time he can, he wouldn't have told it to River because he knows they will meet again in the Library.

Thank you for the compliments. :)

I, too, don't think he was going to say his name

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...on the beach. And if there is a very simple explanation to the naming...it is the one everyone is assuming. RTD isn't generally working from a really convoluted agenda in his story arcs. The Doctor was falling in love with Rose...something that is very clear in the text of S1 and S2. And he was quite clearly mourning her in S3. Bad Wolf was connected to the love story...so was Torchwood. Mr. Saxon was connected to the finale...and I think WIFE is, too.

If it turns out that he can only tell his wife his name...only family members...that makes sense...and the audience is half way there.

I don't think he was going to tell her his name on the Doomsday beach at the end...I think he told her on the one with the flying dinosaurs...the "forever" beach. She says she's going to stay with him forever...and he tells her his name. It was the right time to tell her.

And with all of this talk about Donna being his wife at introductions...you just really do itch to make the propering introduction...of the wife. The "Oh, no...we're not married. That's his wife." Nod toward Rose.

Rae

RTD did have one convoluted plot

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

RTD always intended Jack to return. But he is never mentioned at all in season two. The reason given for Jack being abandoned was... ill fitting to what had already been presented. Hopefully Jack and Rose will bump into each other when she comes over, and they will have a decent conversation about it.

I'm having a mind fog moment about the 'forever' beach. Did the Doctor really think Rose meant forever? If that's the only reason he can say his name, that means he can never say it to River, because he knows she will die prematurely. Alternatively, if he can only say his name in the knowledge she will die with him, he would never have sent Rose away from him; til death do us part.

I'm tentative about only telling family, too. If Susan had turned around and said, "You're my Grandfather" the Doctor's easy response should be "Prove it" and she does so by saying, "I'm Susan, Daughter of X, Granddaughter of [Doctor's true name]." But we know even RTD handwaves a lot of old school. So... Jenny. The Doctor comes to declare that she is his daughter, but did he tell her his name to bind them as such, to make it an unbreakable bond? Isn't it odd that in Donna's span as companion that the Doctor would weep sweetly at declaring one family member only to despair not so long after at another family member? Jenny herself results from a future paradox, as does River; he comes too soon.

While I'm mentioning kids, say River is a descendant (I'll be moving to your Mom thread in a minute) of the Doctor. If he's raising them as part-Gallifreyan, they should have some trained telepathic ability. As with Yana opening the watch, the Doctor doesn't need to be in the same room to realise there's another Time Lord; it's in his head. The Doctor shouldn't have asked "Who are you to me?" but rather "That's impossible."

I think the Doctor's going to get married by accident, or bump into an existing wife. So, the Doctor and Donna are about to do their routine denial and a woman declares scorned, "Actually, I'm his wife. He's always had a thing for red heads, man-whore." The wife thing is done with humour, so I expect it to follow as such. It's like Martha; a lot of people itched for the unrequited love to be overcome with sex, but it never came. Instead, we discover Martha has moved on and found someone who does notice her. The formula is one of the lead characters becoming attached to a mystery person. Rose is a lead character, and it would have been nice when she's banging on the wall for her to scream at Jackie, "You get your husband, I want mine!"

Okay...I just started reading...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...and I must take a small aside here to say...

"Will you PLEASE stop registering things!"

Please know that I am gently patting your hand over this...not trying to sound strident...but births do not need to be registered.

Any more than marriages do. Our current culture does it that way...but my own MOTHER's birth wasn't registered. And I am surrounded by people in Florida who have common law marriages that were never registered.

We certainly cannot assume that the Doctor's culture has any sort of official birth, death and marriage registry. And we can't assume that Pete's World has them either. Nor can we assume that the Doctor and Rose were in the 21st century on Earth all the time.

:headdesk:

:hand outstretched:

:pat:

:looks up to smile warmly at you:

Rae

Second...she's dying...but their dad is "future Doctor"...and he knows...so he's taking care of the kids.

Sorry!

Okay...I'll stop saying forbidden bits of paper

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

Common law marriage - is that a civil union thing in the UK? Civil union is a non-law registered partnership, where the couple have to cohabit for a qualifying length of time in order to present themselves as life partners; as if they were married. So, if River says the Doctor comes when she calls at non-linear intervals to her, it seems unlikely to me that she and the Doctor had a socially recognised relationship.

If anything, her neighbours see it as her mystery man who visits on Sundays to do the child maintenance thing; an intermittent dad is better than a totally absent one. But the idea that he has kids with River, and his name being intrinsic to procreation, means River telling him his name is as cruel as the Doomsday beach: Say we took the interpretation that 'the baby...' really could have been from Ten/Rose. For her to mention her pregnancy when he's never going to see his child for a very long time is cruel. The same applies to River.

As an aside, I'm absolutely intrigued by your mother's birth not being registered. If she lived in the UK, she would have no legal record of her birth, so has been denied a defining aspect in her state entitlement. She would have no right to National Insurance, no state pension. Plus, she would have a huge, and I mean massive fine for the delay in actually getting a birth certificate. I wonder how much of the Doctor's... fondness for 21c London affects his view of validating parents on the birth of their child.

I think what I'm saying is...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...we can't subscribe 21st century Earth paperwork or customs to the Doctor and his family.

And I am off on a new theory re: River...I think she's the Doctor's mother. See my latest post on LJ for more.

As for my mother...yes, she was indeed denied some rights for her parents weirdness...she was born at home and they didn't bother to register her...until her marriage. I don't know how they got her into school. It is all very complicated and we still don't know much about any of it.

And I think the Doctor's fondness for Earth and humanity is definitely relevant...I am rather intrigued by Susan's wanting to live as a real Earth girl in the very first episode. The Doctor seems to actually view humans as worthless apes at that point...but Susan is romanticizing them. It does rather fit if he was raised by his father the Gallifreyan to be a Time Lord and yet has a human mother who makes him look inferior to what he considers his "own kind."

Rae
who never really subscribed to the "half-human on my mother's side" theories...but who knows for sure that RTD has tried to address it in canon before this.

Re: I think what I'm saying is...

[angelic-solace.livejournal.com]

I personally think River is the Doctor's hairdresser's cousin twice removed.

There was all that foreshadowing

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...about hairdryers. You could have it, by gosh.

You know, what I liked about the hairdryer thing? Jackie Tyler was a hairdresser.

So, he must have had a bit of interference from her.

Rae

Are you not from the U.K. Biscuit?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Somehow I was thinking you were from there. I am not from the U.K. I'm an American. And in the southern states...there is a sort of civil union...yeah...where people simply live together for a long while and are declared married.

But you don't HAVE to live together...for example...what the Doctor and Rose do on that beach...is considered legally binding in common law. If she promises him she will stay with him forever...then he can claim that she married him. It is a bit more complicated than that among humans...what usually happens is the two people have a spiritual ceremony of some kind...before witnesses...and promise forever. Under common law...that can be taken as a binding promise.

I'm not saying any of this applies to the Doctor and Rose or the Doctor and River...I'm just saying that you can't apply our laws and mores and customs to alien societies. And so Rose could be his wife in his eyes. Or naming could only happen between family members or...as you say...it could be the Dwarf thing of having your name stripped from you and only being allowed to say it once.

Moffat seems to think that the name is hidden from shame...he gives that same interpretation in Girl in the Fireplace. But the Doctor could well be ashamed of his half-human heritage. Gallifreyans seem to consider humans little more than apes. It would explain why he's always been lonely...always been an outsider. And why he is attracted to Earth girls.

Rae

I am from the UK

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

I live in the middle of this wet little island. I am aware of civil union in modern UK, which is why I was curious about common law marriages outside it. I think marriage without witness was made illegal in the 18th century in the UK.

I think the most notable late-registered birth in the UK was of the current Monarch's (Queen Elizabeth II) mother (also an Elizabeth). She was born at home and there was a 19 day delay in registering the birth, resulting in a fine. How different history could have been if during her royal-vetting courting the Heir she hadn't got a birth certificate.

Bit more about birthdays

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

The reason I know about the late registration of the Queen Mother's birth is this:

In the UK, if a citizen reaches 100 years old, the Queen (reigning monarch) sends you a telegram to celebrate the achievement. The Queen Mother actually reached her 100th birthday, and there were two jokes. The first was that the Queen would send her a telegram. The second was that they might have celebrated too early, because of the delay in registering the birth.

Monarchy: It's illegal to slander but we can still be amused. ;)

Re: Names and arcs

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

So...now...sorry...back to your lovely bit of surmise. I do think Jack is like the Doctor in having his name hidden. I will readily go with your idea that the name means something bad. My cavet has always been that the naming obviously didn't make the Doctor all happy. It made him filled with despair. So, like you, I feel it could well mean something devastating for him. Like his song (not River...that's a red herring I think) but his over all song...this way of life of his...coming to an end.

If River is Jack and the Doctor's child...I suppose that might explain how she could power a computer. She might have a bit of that energy. It just seems like a reach. But I can see it put into the canon fairly easily...and Jack is a person that the Doctor would go in and out of a lifetime with...as long as he keeps his power. I can also see that dying like that would reset the computer for anyone.

I think overall...this is just Moffat writing nonsense. Have his episodes ever had much to do with anything? They usually seem like complete stand alone glimpses into the magnificent history of the Doctor long term.

Rae

Random Parent Parings

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

OMG Jack/Doctor? If Jack's been pregnant (TW 1x01) and the Doctor's got girl bits (DW 4x02), who'd be the one to internally gestate the kids? I'm infatuated with the idea that the Doctor overcomes his prejudice to the extent of building a new species with Jack. That would be a long lived race.

My squee for random pairings is still Jenny/Luke. Both are pod-grown to later stage development and given the memories of others. While Luke looks younger, he's actually older than Jenny. Then (and this is my favourite bit), Sarah Jane and the Doctor would have the same grandkids! She needn't have despaired in School Reunion that she would tell amazing stories to other people's grandkids. In fact, being the Doctor's grandkids they'd probably tell her amazing stories, too!

Alternatively, Jack/Jenny. Both return from the dead looking exactly the same and are left behind by the Doctor.

A speck of speculation off the beaten trail...?

[fazeddaze.livejournal.com]

Although this is just a single line from your post of wonderfully composed thought and speculation (of which I am very impressed by and agree with wholeheartedly)...

As you said in the beginning of this post, We are coming to the end of a song.

Perhaps the Ood's statement had a couple meanings?
One meaning referencing the Doctor's song of loneliness and emotional captivity coming to an end with Rose's return... and the other being the end of Professor River SONG.

Oooh RTD! You crafty little bugger you!!1

Hee...it could be that...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...but I think that is a red herring...maybe. I don't really know. I just know this opens up all sorts of diverse possiblities for the future of the show. And maybe that is ALL it was supposed to do...it's like a teaser for the Moffat years ahead.

A way of telling us the Doctor's journey doesn't really end where RTD is about to end it.

Rae

Hee...it could be that...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...but I think that is a red herring...maybe. I don't really know. I just know this opens up all sorts of diverse possiblities for the future of the show. And maybe that is ALL it was supposed to do...it's like a teaser for the Moffat years ahead.

A way of telling us the Doctor's journey doesn't really end where RTD is about to end it...but will go on in 2010...and the Doctor will be ubercool...facing down armies and stuff.

Rae

[webeh.livejournal.com]

To be perfectly honest, I still didn't get a lover vibe from River. Yes, she's flirts shamelessly with him. However, I do think that if she was his current lover, we probably would have seen a lot more intimate actions from her half. No hugs, kisses, uncomfortable touching (beyond the face caress), etc. Instead, I do think River was more of a really close friend or confidante that he told everything to. That's why her actions does suggest a closeness, but nothing that explicitly verges into lover territory.

As we've seen in the past, when the Doctor's into someone he's very touchy/feely. You'd think that River would be like that in return if they were lovers. (Rose most definitely was with the hugging/hand-holding/bumping/etc.) As I stated above, we didn't really get any of that.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

This is what I am saying about the child thing...though as people point out...her "Hello, Sweetie" and her overt trusting...show that she, at least assumes...well...she assumes exactly what Sarah Jane assumed...and Rose assumed early on...and Donna assumes...that she's special. And she learns that she's not very special at all.

And people are feeling hurt right now because River's very existance seems to be saying "Rose isn't special" either. And we have had lots of other "Rose isn't special" chipping away for the last two years...in this very episode we have him taking Donna by the waist and by the hand...she allows the hand hold and takes umbrage over the waist thing.

I think River is an answer to the "wife" question...but she might not be THE WIFE. Like THE Doctor or THE library. I am still betting that RTD thinks Rose is special.

All he's really done is establish that all the little things about companions...things we Rose-shippers focused on...might not matter...to the core of Rose. It isn't that she saved his life...it isn't that he hugs her...it isn't that he takes her hand...or gets beside himself with anger when she's threatened...it isn't that he loves spending time with her and sharing his travels. It isn't taking her hand and telling her "run." All of those things are companion things.

So far...it is what you say here...it is that he loves touching Rose...and Rose...doesn't hate him. Not like Joan or Martha or River...Rose loves him no matter what...because Rose completes him...she's his other half...the one who REALLY understands him. And he needs to have that...just once in his life...that complete understanding. River claims to have it...but then gets angry when Ten isn't "her Doctor."

Nine and Ten were Rose's Doctor...and Fifteen would be too.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Okay...what do you have to say to the "River is his Mum" idea?

I do think that having a lover/wife show up at this juncture would be in very bad taste...but his mom would work.

And there is definitely something maternal about River...the way she touchs him...the "Hello Sweetie" and the shock he doesn't recognize her...the need to protect him...and the "Hush, now" at the end...all could be maternal.

Rae

[webeh.livejournal.com]

River as mum? I honestly have no idea. If I were to choose between mother and lover, I do think their relationship is closer to the latter. I don't get as many maternal vibes as I do of the other.

Why? Because frankly I'd be disappointed if River's his mum and that's how she went out. Having the Doctor's mom be alive is huge and I think the writers would have been a lot more explicit about something like this. Plus, I kind of like to think that the Doctor wouldn't need much nudging to recognize her.

Speaking of parenthood, I thought the Doctor's daughter was very much her daddy's offspring. In fact if you were look at her a little closer, she sort of what the child of Ten/Rose could reasonably be like. Rose's innocence/curiosity/features + Ten's energy/excitement.