S4 episode 9...Spoilers for the latest episode of Doctor Who

[rabid1st]

So...people have stopped by to see what I think of the Moffat episode part 2.

Seemed very much like a Moffat episode to me. His Mary Sue...and that right there is the very definition of Mary Sue (something Rose has been accused of being but is not)...shows up and elbows all else aside in her wake. Sometimes the Mary Sue is interesting. I was saying to some people in chat that Moffat does seem to follow the Whore or Virgin Mother model for women. And his "love of his life" people...Reinette and now River seem to be cut from the whore cloth. While Sally and Nancy were cut for the madonna side of the material. Now, when I say whore...I don't necessarily mean in the exact sense of Reinette...but in the "he stops by and visits her and she loves him intently while demanding nothing" model of womanhood.

Anyway, enough about literary models. Let's talk about voiceovers to explain how the audience should be feeling. It is not enough that the Doctor is this God figure that opens doors with a snap of his fingers and stares down armies...no...he must also be the answer to every male and female fantasy rolled into one. There is a problem with that...and it's this...he hasn't really earned all of this slavish devotion. It violates that old chestnut from writing school..."Show don't tell!" You shouldn't have to tell me over and over again how magnificient the Doctor will be one day.

Moffat just tries too damned hard. And he doesn't need to...because his storyline was good...even padded with the voiceover...and telegraphing the plot to me in the first few moments of the episode. I did still find it very scary in places...the distorted face might haunt MY dreams. And I think I would definitely be scared of creepying shadows and skeletons in space suits if I was 9 or so. Those are creepy things. Also, the idea that everyone is lying to you that Donna deals with...and that your family will be taken away and leave you devastated.

Things I found annoying:

1) Mary Sue love of the Doctor's life. If there's going to be another one of those...let's learn about her the old fashioned way, shall we.
2) Voiceover explaining what we are supposed to feel about all this.
3) Donna being the virginal mother figure this time around.
4) Constant references to things that weren't all that memorable the first time we saw them...bananas, squareness guns, and "I'm always alright"...and the five hour takes you home program in the TARDIS.
5) And the notion of the Doctor getting even more full of himself in the future.
6) Donna being totally useless to the Doctor...that Mary Sue thing again...it is, of course, Moffat's girl who must save the day and be the center of his world.
7) That River was basically Jack without a...let's say...five o'clock shadow.

Things I found cool...

1) The Vashta Narada...living in trees and the books that were the real thing again. So neat.
2) Donna's virtual world hopping about like that.
3) Evangelist...skipping over the name having definite virginal overtones.
4) Finally getting that "Always wait 5 and 1/2 hours" thing settled.
5) The Doctor as a timeless being and everyone will be with him for a short time only...I am okay with this view of Rose, too. If Rose is what I would consider the true love of his life...the one who gives him a family and home again.
6) Even though I called it about ten minutes in...and it is very like the end of Disheveled...I enjoyed Dr. Moon and the virtual world and the little girl from Girl in the Fireplace as a brunette.

Things that played to our themes...

1) Children by asexual reproduction...Donna's kids...then Rivers. BTW, where did they get the children templates? I expected they were real children from the library, but maybe not. How could there be no children in the library? Seems unlikely. Oh, I know...maybe these were children donated at death. You don't often see library benches donated in honor of children.
2) The idea of the Doctor having a wife. And wouldn't it be neat if Rose knows his name...if the very reason that River apologizes to him is that her knowing his name means Rose is gone for good and River knows that will hurt him deeply.
3) Another chance at happiness cut short for him...even with a completely shipper face on River...she's not the love of his life...he gave her his screwdriver on that last day to save her life, knowing that he would know he wouldn't give her his screwdriver. And knowing is the key, he always knew she's going to die like this...begging him to give her the brief happiness she had with him...don't change anything she tells him. So...he is honor bound to tell her his name now. She spoiled her own life. All of that stacks the deck against her as a real character in his future.
4) Transformation of humans into something else...in this case data and computers.
5) And finally...the Doctor again said his head was too full...all those voices in his head.

I did like his reaction to River. I think David played it very well...as if he couldn't believe it could be true. And that begs the question...why couldn't he believe it. And that leads us straight to Rose Tyler.

Rae

Comments

[pepperlandgirl4.livejournal.com]

I hate throwing around the term "Mary Sue" because for most of Fandom it's come to mean "The character I hate" instead of "the writer's self-insert." For many, many people, it seems like a Mary Sue is any character who gets to do interesting shit. But you know, nobody would watch if the characters just sat on the couch and ate Cheetos all day like most normal mortals. But River Song and Moffat's other female characters?

Classic. Textbook. Definition. And it's getting really boring and tedious. I seriously don't even know if I'm going to watch when he takes over.I know he's a fan favorite, but I just am progressively less impressed and more annoyed with his episodes. And I'm not even a shipper!

Hello Pepper...how's tricks?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

:grin:

Well, I'm a shipper, of course, but like you, I also hesitate to toss around the Mary Sue term. As you say, it has come to mean any character you don't like.

But textbook it is when a character you've never seen before comes in and takes over the story and without any plausible reason why we are all supposed to drop everything and adore said character because the author loves her so very much...and she is the best thing ever to show up in the hero's life...that's a Mary Sue character.

And I'm also getting a little tired of Moffat going to the same well over and over again, referencing his less than clever gags over and over. Boring and tedious about sums it up.

A few posts back (a couple weeks maybe) I linked to the Stage Blog where they said something along the lines of Moffat is the logical choice...he's done some of the best stand alone episodes...but do we really want to see those episodes week after week? No way! On the other hand...maybe some people want exactly that...noromos and geek fans who are tired of angst and want mindless adventures with slutboi action Doctor in space/time.

What do I know?

Rae

Re: Hello Pepper...how's tricks?

[pepperlandgirl4.livejournal.com]

A part of me is hoping that it won't be too bad when he's running things. I mean, we don't have to put up with Rusty's Messiah Complex every single episode now, for example, and Moffat won't be writing the whole thing. Plus, his tendencies (whore/madonna complex, mary sue's, main characters that are COOLER THAN EVERYBODY EVER!) really worked for me with Jekyll. So...I'm torn. I might end up watching purely out of habit. Unless he really starts pissing me off, which based on these last two episodes, is extremely possible.

I thought...if I had my big finish on Rose/Ten

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

The happy for her lifetime choice...and from this episode I would say that is still definitely on the books...then, I felt I could settle in to a Moffat season or two with some sense of contentment and interest. I'm an old school fan...so my love of the Doctor is very strong...my love of Rose is right about at that level, too, though.

I don't mind the Doctor finding love again in a few hundred years. I don't really mind him slutting around to the extent we usually see in a Moffat episode...the bed, the handcuffs, the dancing references...as long as he's had say 80 years with Rose somewhere to clear all of the white noise out of his head. I am one of the few shippers who believe that Rose should live out a normal lifespan with him and give him babies and then he should go back to traveling and saving worlds.

It is ironically...the Messiah complex coming into play here...or rather James Bond in space...that I don't like so much. But then, I was never a James Bond fan.

On an entirely different note...I have issues with Moffat doing the same sorts of things over and over again and I wonder what he is going to give us in the way of a companion. I wouldn't mind Nancy as a companion. But again, I return to the idea that the safest bet for him coming out of the RTD era...would be a great grandchild...so that there is no suggestion of romance onboard...and so that he can shunt that character aside whenever he wants to do something else. Relatives are easier to ignore, truthfully.

Rae
who hasn't seen Jekyll but heard it was good.

[thisficklemob.livejournal.com]

Sounds like you've got a power struggle. You've got Old Showrunner Dude, who might be telling a cohesive love story or might not, and you've got New Showrunner Dude, who either doesn't like that story or doesn't like Old Dude, and is writing to undermine it. It's even more possible than on a regular show, because he can set the future in stone with time travel.

I didn't see it, but this River sounds like a Sue. The name "River" is yer first clue. Sorry, Rae, it sounds like your 'ship (and your love of a coherent plot arc) is almost certain to lose out.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Maybe...maybe it's a power struggle...but this does all play into my themes idea. I had expected to see that if he didn't choose Rose he would have a life that would be like the one River describes. And someone points out that an anagram of River Song is Rose v Ring.

This is the underlying message of wives that I've been pointing out...coupled with the choice I said he must make. Now, it is there...his wife or his Rose...River has told him not to change the future...but if it was her v Rose...would she lose? Of course she would...if there is a coherent plot arc.

Yet, as you say...I'm much more likely to be disappointed again rather than have it all make sense in the end. Still, not giving up hope...the Doctor wasn't the least bit happy with the future River painted for him.

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

Would he sacrifice a companion for Rose? Yes, if it led to their demise.(or life in a computer)The wanna-be-hubby threw up his arms on Doctor going to Rose,however he gives up on things too easy and I have a reason why I haven't thrown it in. From a professional stand point, it would make no sense whatsoever to meet the Doctor's wife so soon. You'd kill the chance of a big ratings sweep for the finale. It would be stupid. So I'm guessing we were ( as a professor of mine would say) jived. SO that said, I am going to continue to hope, but prepare to be disappointed in case Rusty does pull a hamster out of his ass and we're all disappointed.

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

BTW I think Donna's idea of changing things from tFoP will come into play if the Doctor does go to Rose.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I think so, too. About saving just ONE person....I think that is what Donna was on about...she could save Rose...and by saving Rose...save the Doctor. This came back again in the Unicorn and the Wasp when the wasp released Agatha. Of course, that could also be the Doctor letting go of Rose to save her. But I hope that's not what it is.

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

It does look grim, but I think it's part of the plan. Rusty and Moffat are probably laughing.I believe Rusty wasn't the only one creating red-herrings. I just wonder if they did too good of a job of scaring us. I still say thats all it was, just a huge scare. One can speculate forever.

I am sooo tired

[inwe-amandil.livejournal.com]

of steven Moffat! When I heard he would be the one to take over the show I didn't really mind that much, I mean I liked the doctor dances and ofcourse i thought he introduced captain jack really well. However as we go on I find myself having to continually remind myself how much i liked those episodes. I find his writing style very predictable, although i must say atleast he didn't totally shove the companion to the side this time donna was at least present. :) I think the thing I hated most about the episode wasn't River Song (I mean I didn't like her but I found her tolerable in the end.) it was the futher encouraging of the doctors God complex. I mean honestly did we reall need the clicking of the fingers at the end? *Runs off to curse Steven Moffat and tear out hair*

oh btw was the music at the end with the diary the bad wolf theme? I thought it was but I'm not certain. Its going to drive me insane cause i can't figure out the connection, but i totally dont subscribe to the river song is rose regenerated theme.

Re: I am sooo tired

[athenesolon.livejournal.com]

It sounded more like the song they've used for the Doctor to me. The "President Flavia" music (as RTD called it).

Re: I am sooo tired

[onlyoot.livejournal.com]

You sat down in from of the computer to watch your download, you saw the episode...and then you forgot.

Hee...If only it were that simple, Oot

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

If only Dr. Moon were there to make me forget.

That's the thing, though. It's a doctor moon. I didn't find this episode hard to follow like so many people did...so it made me silly with ranting about Moffat's genius. I thought this was a standard stand-alone sci-fi story. And I can easily see them submitting it for another Hugo award.

As long as whoever votes for those awards hasn't seen an episode of New Who...they are going to judge this as a stand-alone episode without relevance to the whole of the show. And it will do just fine as an introduction to the idea of the Doctor.

Lots of cool ideas...and a neat character who has this mysterious wife. But if you see it in context, it strikes all the wrong notes. And we are going to be getting that complete lack of understanding of context...week after week. Moffat, as I've said, is going to return us to Old School Who. Let's hope people really DO find that as exciting as they thing they will. I say the ratings will easily go to 4.0 when David leaves.

Rae

Re: Hee...If only it were that simple, Oot

[onlyoot.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, I view River as a future companion yes but not a One True Love. I think he was close with her, but close in the way he was with Sarah Jane or Jo Grant and the ilk. I think he needs to get close to his companions, the older he gets. But I dont think it necessarily means OMG he has To Marry them and declare his undying Love. See for me yes, I saw the closeness. And yes its evident they travelled and had many adventures. BUT!!! It seems to me there mostly werent together. They had Diaries so they could catch up. She met him at Different times and out of sequence, so on some adventures he was older than others. She also said, 'he comes when I call him'. So again, they are not constantly together. And lets face it The doc would ALWAYS come for a companion. And even if he didnt initially know who it was (like this ep) he likes a mystery so he would still come. And for the record, I think she knew him in another regeneration. I think if you spend enough time you get to know the doc and can recognise him in another body. Plus..photos. He probably has an album somewhere and shes seen all his incarnations. Useful if you know your going to bump into them maybe and you dont want to spoil the timeline by telling them 'spoilers'.

See? That's exactly how she reads to me

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...as well, Oot. She reads like a very special companion.

And she loves him like Martha, so he is honor bound to help her find that final release. And since he already knows how her life goes when he meets her, it's not like MARTHA...he won't screw up her happiness by saying the wrong things.

The whole original title..."River's Run" was a reference to the idea that is presented with Rose and Martha...that this wonderful man comes from the stars...takes your hand and tells you to "Run" and off you go...you never stop running.

Only everyone eventually stops running because they are exhausted. Only he goes on and on running...never tiring.

Except...well...he IS tired.

BTW, the "One true love" idea was inserted by someone else...telling me what the Director said in the confidential. Apparently HE was told that he should handle this direction "as if River could be his one true love." But that, to me is about the direction...which did go down that way. The powers wanted us to question at this point where the Doctor's life is going.

That's what HAS to happen at this point. We are going to get more and more of that as we head to the finale, I think. Because I believe that is what this season has been about...where the Doctor's life is going.

Rae

Oh...and only the name thing...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...makes her special in the end. Because the context is that she must be special to him if she has that...because he's not allowed to tell it.

Of course, if we do say that means she's his "wife"...which is implied in the context...why did he know Romana's name? Or Borusa's. Is all of Old School out the window like Sarah Jane's previous relationship with him? Or are we too assume that both Borusa and Romana asked him to marry them?

Or is this not a continuity error but is it instead that the name means something all together different...but equally intimate?

Rae

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Word. I felt exactly the same way about River!
Lol! Great minds think alike!
That's why I think River is not the "love of his life". When he meets her again, he'll know she'll die for him. So now, when he tells her he loves her, or when he does something very nice for her (like giving her his screwdriver and telling her his name), we'll always wonder if this is because she is SO special and he truly loves her, or if it's because he feels guilty and anyway, it's part of the plan to protect the timeline...

It is sort of why she doesn't work...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...as a character in the real future of the show. I mean, I'm sure there will be lots of River/Ten fic now...and a certain number of people anxiously awaiting her return. But...still...I feel that as a character her relevance has been completely spoiled unless some very clever writer makes her something other than what she appears to be in this story.

Rae

DW 4x09 reaction

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

Things I liked:
Tennant's and Tate's acting
Messing with time

Things I didn't like:
Continuity issues
Sexism

Things still in the season theme:
Colonising a planet
Human transformation
Someone taking the big decision to save the Doctor's life at their expense

My thoughts that won't fit in a comment.

I'm probably a small minority that doesn't associate the Doctor's true name with marriage. He's been married before, so a few people would know it, including the Registry Office. I don't think he's ever told it to Rose, but she may know it from realising Bad Wolf. The Doctor hides his title. Part of that might be the 'Dwarf influence,' where dwarves exiled from their clan have their name stripped. If that's true, he's ashamed of his name, but it's more than that to me. He despairs at his name, so it probably results in bad things happening to non-Time Lords.

Re: DW 4x09 reaction

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I'm in that small minority with you, tea biscuit. I honestly thought that his level of dispair wasn't suitable to the idea of marriage. Of course, he doesn't like marriage. :grin:

I do think that he could lie to the Registry Office though. And I do think that we are meant to draw the "wife" conclusion here...it is mentioned just before River speaks...and it is definitely referenced again as she dies. But if it is about marriage...then this is not a happy, contented, loving or supportive marriage.

It could well be, and is implied here, that the name means a great intimacy. That could be associated with death as well. It could be she is the mother of his children or something. Maybe he can only give the name as he gives it to Rose in Disheveled...during intercourse. It could mean that, as I've purposed...he's near that point where he splits into another being.

The fact is we don't know...we only assume from context what the writer wants us to assume. Is Moffat setting up a red herring? It does seem likely as he pretty much spoiled River's life...we have no need to meet her in the future at this point. But that doesn't mean Moffat is NOT being self-indulgent...he tends to be very self-indulgent.

That we will have continuity issues from this episode...is par for the course with Moffat. I mean...if knowing a Time Lord's name is so meaningful...then Romana is what? That is something that bugs me at a craft-level and it is far removed from simple fannishness.

Oh...yes, colonizing the planet...using something that is changed in form as well...using books instead of trees to breed.

And yes, the sacrifice to save the Doctor, which I do feel Donna will be making.

Rae

Of course...it could be that...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...knowing the DOCTOR'S name is important...not knowing any old Time Lord's name. And that would link in to the idea that the Doctor is a title passed on...and knowing his name means he's about to divide or something.

This would also be why she told him not to regenerate.

Rae

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

I'm still rather divided about these episodes. On one hand, I did cry my little eyes out at the end (sorry, David's emo acting just *always* gets me), OTOH, I was definitely not feeling River as the love of the Doctor's life. Uh uh.

I had a thought that I haven't seen anywhere else (yet, I might have missed it)...what if the Doctor can only tell his name when he dies for good? I do see River as being a special companion in the future - along the same lines as Donna and Sarah Jane - not a lover and certainly not a wife. But what if she is the one who is there at the end of his life? It would sort of explain why she says she is sorry before whispering his name. Because she knows when he is going to die?

Although I generally like his stories, one thing I *don't* like about Steven Moffat is his insistence on foisting other women onto the Doctor, in a romantic sense, even though RTD and others have said that Rose is supposed to be the love of his life.

It doesn't quite seem logical to me for River to be the Doctor's wife. She seems to only have traveled with him sporadically...he comes and picks her up for an adventure, then sends her home. Or she calls him when she needs help with something. That doesn't really say intimate relationship to me, though I suppose some couples do it that way. If anything, I'd think that the Doctor would take great pains to stay at a distance from her (emotionally, anyway). He knows her fate and that he has a part in it, and you know how guilty he gets about that sort of thing. I dunno...it just doesn't fit.

All that being said, I think that the Doctor *could* love Rose and still be close to someone in the future. We don't know how many years have passed (although it seems that River did meet him when he was still Ten) - it could be decades or even centuries between his jaunts to see her. Do I think he would love her like Rose? No. But I can see a very close friendship - he has always needed people to lean on when the going gets tough, and she certainly seems to fit the bill.

And I keep trying to wrap myself around the intricacies of time travel. So...say the Doctor *doesn't* meet River in the future. Or, knowing what he knows now, he accidentally changes something. Would his past then change? Would the incident at the library still happen in the same way? I know that there are events that the Doctor can change...but I'm not sure what that means for the outcome. He can't change his past...but can he change his future? Oy...the timey wimey stuff makes my head hurt!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...the way I understand it...you can change your future. This has been presented in a number of episodes. River entreating him NOT to change his life one bit...might sway the fans...but if she is "the road not taken" which I think must be presented...then she is saying that he is old and weary and has an intimate relationship that he just drops in and out of...and well...he might not find that very fulfilling.

But it might be all that he can see at this time...and Moffat can foresee for him...this wandering wonder man.

Which doesn't mean it is all RTD can see for him...we definitely see with say...GitF that RTD doesn't agree that Reinette is the perfect woman for the Doctor at all. This time...the woman is more in line with the Doctor's traveling lifestyle...so she's a better possibility.

If you look back over my canon theorizing...you will see that I have been saying one of the things we need to do for the Doctor to change his life is to present him with a look at his own future. River just did that.

I don't really get that she knew TEN though...unless Last of the Time Lords isn't correct and he doesn't age...or he meets River in 2009. She had to look into his eyes to tell his age...yet she tells him she knows him from many years away. Now, I know we could just assume he DOESN'T age...like he did under the "age you 100 years" screwdriver...but that is a huge continuity error then. And would need explaining...and that's RTD's story. Also, she knows about regeneration...I think she was expecting the Doctor to come...because she called him...and recognized him in the same way she imagined he would recognize her..."I'd know you anywhere. Like Sarah Jane recognizes him in School Reunion."

I feel that when River says, "My Doctor" she is talking about another man...a different regeneration. She asks him not to regenerate...but that could well be because she's now PLACED him in the time frame and knows that he didn't regenerate there.

Some people are going on about the Rose v Ring idea...of River's name as an anagram. And that would fit in to the path not taken. Can we honestly say if he changed River's life...that would be wrong? She ended up in a computer, knowing he knew all along how she would die. So he knew where to take her on special dates and he gave her his screwdriver...not from great love but from necessity. Pretty much changing that future...would be good for River...even if she would rather die than lose her memories of him.

But still...it is an appeal to him that he can't really ignore...so I think she might NOT be the road not taken. He can change his future though...that's why he didn't open the book. And I frankly, along with many of RTD's core fans...hope that he DOES change that future. That could be the very thing that RTD is saying here...this future sucks...he should do something else.

Rae

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking of this as a bit of an "It's a Wonderful Life" episode...the Doctor gets a peek at some version of his future, but it isn't set in stone. And I *swear* I read in a couple of places (articles, etc.) that they were advertising this as an "alternate" future. I honestly kept expecting them to have stumbled into yet another parallel universe, but nope. Just a glimpse into a possible future.

Yeah, I've been puzzling over River recognizing him, too. I mean...she recognized him enough to call him "sweetie" right off the bat. Then again, she could have just been assuming that it was him from seeing the TARDIS. Then *again*, if she didn't recognized Ten at all, why would she have assumed that he was from the "early days". I just can't seem to get around the fact that she must have met him at least a couple of times as Ten, near the end of that incarnation. She doesn't note a change until she looks him in the eye...even going with the idea that Time Lords don't age, we, the faithful viewers, can see how much he has aged in just the last couple of seasons, you know? It's all in the eyes.

That doesn't mean that she had a super close relationship with him, then, though. She could have just met him a couple of times, but not really gotten to know him until later.

Still, I think the "not the road not taken" (aka, this is the road you're on, buddy) idea is probably the best one. River doesn't want to lose her time with the Doctor...but if he changes things, she'll never know what she missed. And, heck, as you say, things might actually go better for her in the long run. Better for everyone!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh...and what happens to your devotion when David Tennant leaves. I think the reason that we have no definite mention in this text about him leaving is that the fandom would have a meltdown if they thought David was going. This is something that will not be addressed in canon until it is time to say goodbye. So, River talks around the idea of what Doctor she knows...letting us believe it could still be Ten...David.

I didn't get that it was...as she said...Ten is very difficult to manage...and while I do think we will see him as an old man...I don't think we will see River.

Rae

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

Me, I still love Doctor Who no matter who plays the Doctor (which I suppose is an advantage to being an old skool fan - we've been through this quite a few times!), but I see what you mean. David is playing very coy about the possibility of being back in 2010, and I honestly think the 2009 specials are the end for him. TPTB can't even think about hinting at that, though.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Right...I feel that they are being coy about if she knows TEN or not...because THAT is linked to the immediate future.

And you know...like you...I'm an Old School Doctor Who fan and I love the Doctor...so I would go on sans Tennant. But RTD could well kill my love of the Doctor if his stand is that the Doctor can never change.

This seems to be the stand most fans accept...that the Doctor must always travel along with the companions left behind...that he's a lonely, uberpowerful god. And that might not be the Doctor I want to go on with now. I think really...that's a terribly bleak and hopeless future. And I'm not sure I can subscribe to it if that's all we get.

If the Doctor CAN change...can live a life with Rose...can HAVE that life as well as many other lives...I'm fine with it.

Loving a companion has at it's very core the death of the show we always knew in Old School. It very much matters how the love story is handled...in the context of his life. Is loving Rose, living the life he's never had...part of his overall mythos...or is his overall mythos...unchanged. The very fact that RTD made three HUGE changes in the character already...gives me hope he can make one more.

River is the basic way of saying...while RTD is ending the song...giving the Rose/Ten story it's propoer ending...the concert of the Doctor isn't over. He will go on in another life...which we know...and still be this magnificent being that he always was. If you need to tie River to LOVE OF HIS LIFE...than you can...I mean...if you find you can't bear to think of Rose as that person...then RTD has offered you the possiblity of another one.

But Rose is the one RTD picks...and so will Ten, I believe. Ten is Rose's Doctor. Fifteen is River's Doctor.

Rae

Where do you get wife out of that episode?

[ladymcclellan.livejournal.com]

I'm in the US, so I watched this episode in broken down bits on Utube, but where do you get a wife reference in this episode?

Seriously, I'm not doggin' on the point you're trying to make, but can you point out the specifics? Does it reference back to Old Who? Again, being in the US I only ever caught a few of the early episodes on PBS so I don't know a lot of the story arc.

I am getting it from the inferences

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And I'm not particularly tied to any meaning...see my she's his mother and she's Jack posts for equal argument. But the inference is that she and the Doctor have an intimate relationship in the future. Many people take it to, also, be she has said relationship with TEN. I feel that assumption goes too far as she was expecting the Doctor and was able to recognize the Doctor. And I've been able to do that myself from a photo...pointed out which one of the strange actors in the photo was going to be the next Doctor. The Doctor is easy to recognize is you are expecting to find him.

But anyway...back to the wife thing. Most of the assumption is based on the weight given his name and where his name is placed. River is trying to convince the Doctor to trust her. A man steps forward and says, "You are bickering like an old married couple." The Doctor and River both look at the man, as if neither of them has thought of that before...then they look at one another. Then, River tells him his name.

Later the Doctor is all upset about River dying and he links his emotional upset to the fact that she knows his name and there is "only one time when I could tell you." And River says, "Hush, now! Spoilers!"

That and the other references to sexual relationships and dates....such as the intimacy of his giving her his screwdriver and the intimacy of the diary being like the TARDIS and the intimacy of touching his face...and the handcuff reference...and the idea that "he knows" that "sometimes she hates him." All seem to read to people as if she is a very special companion and they take the next leap...because they are lead there by "Old married couple" and "Only one time I am allowed to tell you my name."

Now, for a counter to all of those arguments...you can go read my "she's his mother post." But most of all...you can go watch Girl in the Fireplace and Blink and see that Moffat does this sort of thing all the time. He's rather obsessed with the idea of the Doctor as a sexual being, a ladies man, and with the idea that the Doctor's hidden name is very important and must be revealed to the "loves of his life."

Said loves of his life...according to Moffat off-screen...Reinette and River. Moffat rejects the idea of plain old ordinary Rose and of the idea that the Doctor can ever live an ordinary life. So, he creates these women who are so extraordinary that they would momentarily dazzle even a "lonely God" and then he has the Doctor momentarily dazzled...but sharing something very intimate...like his name or a mental connection.

Rae