A kiss is still a kiss...a sigh is still a sigh...VotD Spoilers

[rabid1st]

But not a lot of them...as I don't really have too much to say...and I want to talk about kisses more than anything else. Kisses and snow, actually!



So, Kes...there were two kisses, just as I told you there would be. Did you not see them both?

The fundamental things apply as time goes by. And the fundamental thing applying in VotD was that the Doctor still misses his Rose. He did indeed respond to Astrid's Rose like qualities, her caring nature...her compassion...her humanity. He relived his loss of true love as both members of the committed couple were lost. He relived it again as Astrid met his eye and he saw she, too, would sacrifice herself for the greater good. The valient child, again. His frantic attempts to get Astrid back. His snarling, "I can do anything." His tender good-bye kiss...all of it reflected back to Rose and was poignant.

But yes, it is getting old...the lamenting...the lonely god image...the kisses. Again, I say RTD should complete his story...send the Doctor to Rose and bow off stage right. Moffatt can bring him back and give us a grouchy, devil-may-care Doctor. One far less prone to snap his fingers at angels and do the Christ figure thing.

Which brings me to what I wanted to talk about here...snow! Real snow. And kisses. The kisses we had here were not motivated by romantic feeling on the Doctor's part but by other things...just as ever.

The first kiss the Doctor ever gets is the one from Jack. Jack saying goodbye. And the final kiss given to Astrid is much the same. It is a poignant kiss, but it isn't really romantic.

The Doctor's second New Who kiss is the one he bestows on Bad Wolf Rose. This kiss is the practical sort of kiss. While I found it very romantic because of the things he said before it happened...still...it was a kiss to purpose. He had to suck that mean old wolf right out of her. Another example of the practical kiss is the one he gives Martha...to slow down the Judoon. This type of kiss isn't really meaningful as a kiss.

The third kiss was from Cassandra in Rose's body...a kiss he didn't really expect. He isn't unhappy about it afterward, but his flailing tell us that it was unexpected. He also flails in this way when kissed by Jackie Tyler. Though, with Jackie there is marked sputtering afterward...rather than a, "Yep! Still got it!"

Which brings us to Madame Pompadore. The kiss which left the Doctor breathless and dazed and maliable. Still, not a kiss he went looking for...and he does protest it, squirming up the fireplace before melting into submission. This kiss is very like the first one from Astrid. The overall feeling is that he likes these women...enjoys kissing them...but wouldn't think to kiss them himself.

Finally, we come to Donna in the S4 trailer...and the line about mating...and her kiss which is another one of those sputtering and struggling kisses that I feel will lead to him wiping his mouth on the back of his hand.

So...what's all this have to do with snow? Or anything else? Well...see...the snow hasn't been real and neither have the kisses. On the first Christmas special...we had a ship burning up. In Runaway Bride, the Doctor made it snow. In VotD...a ship's cargo burns. All he has is ashes really in this one. And kisses that aren't really romantic. And a love that is lost to him. I think (Kes will tell you I overthink actually) that we will have real snow...when we have a real kiss. Essentially, I agree with Sensible Cat who said all of this was a set up for next Christmas...with Rose...when we will have a real kiss and, I'm willing to bet hard cash right now, real snow on Christmas, too.



Rae

Comments

[bethtaurichick.livejournal.com]

Oh, that would be wonderful! I do hope you're right, about the real snow and most especially about the real kiss with Rose :) I enjoyed VotD, but not as much as The Christmas Invasion, which still remains my favorite Christmas special. Although, if you're correct, then next year would easily knock it off its top slot. Really enjoyed your take on VotD- thanks for sharing :)

[keswindhover.livejournal.com]

So, Kes...there were two kisses, just as I told you there would be. Did you not see them both?

I may have fallen asleep once or twice.

I am interested to see if your snow prediction comes true next year. *makes note in diary* Meanwhile, I only liked this episode for the jokes and some of the characters. Kylie should stick to singing, and I want my fat couple back (*sniff*).

[tazza-di-jo.livejournal.com]

Mmm. Interesting theory. And it fits with the one going around of Rose being the Doctor's WHAT! moment of this year, and the lyrics of The Stowaway.

Frankly I'm getting tired of all the women falling over at the Doctor's feet. Not that we wouldn't all do the same, but... still. He's the biggest Gary Stue. I mean, leaving Rose out, every character crushes on him: there's the Tree woman, Lynda, Sarah-Jane, Reinette, Martha, Astrid, gosh even Jack! And many others I must have missed. Yeah. Getting old. I was looking forward to Donna, hoping they'd continue the theme of the Runaway Bride, with the snark and the slaps and a friendship that is really just a friendship. That kiss makes me REALLY wary. I really hope it's possession or drugs, anything BUT romance, please! Give us a strong female character who doesn't think he hung the moon! And then give us Rose back, kthxbye.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

It is interesting to note, though, that Rose doesn't match the pattern. If you look back, she did tease him about being a cheap date over the chips but mostly she treated him like he was invisible romantically until he mustered up the courage to kiss her and, more or less, declare himself. I think that RTD's stand is that everyone falls instantly in love with the Doctor.

As you say...tree lady...also Zak and Ida and Jack...and now Astrid. I think it's a Time Lord thing, in RTD's book...used to nefarious purposes by the Master in his take over of Earth. Rose, while being the one with the most true love history, is also the one who held out the longest...only admitting her love at the last. And I think it is vital that instead of reacting as he usually does to the love (witness Sarah Jane, Martha, Jack and Reinette) with bemusement and some irritation...he responded to Rose with "Quite right!"

You cannot discount when he tells Martha that the cloaking device is like having a crush on someone who doesn't know you exist...relates very much to that moment in the Doctor Dances when he puts the moves on Rose and she says, "I meant men." Regardless, of how we spin Rose's love for the Doctor...at that point in canon...she was obviously oblivious to his equally obvious attraction to her.

Rae
hoping she's right about RTD and he's not just writing the Doctor as slutboy in space. The needing to mate line bothered me more than the kiss actually...because I think we might get some OTHER woman out there for mating purposes. My hope is he manages to turn her down when she proves to be evil...and holds out for Rose.

[tazza-di-jo.livejournal.com]

ITA to everything. Rose does not match the pattern. That's why it's the only pairing I can truly get behind. Maybe because she met Nine, who might not be as phisically attractive to a 19yearold, but she didn't fall head over heels at first sight. She liked him, she admired him, she cared about him, but I didn't see any sexual undertones for a good long while. Feelings developed over time, gradually, and unlike everyone else, she really fell in love when she got to know him, really know him, not with the image o the Time Lord, the cool hero or lonely god or savior of the Earth, but with the person inside, the part that remains the same through all the regenerations. And I think that's when the Doctor really falls in love with her. I think the attraction developed immediately: she didn't fall over herself at the chance of going with him, he had to ask her twice. She didn't take any shit, forced him to interact with her family, challenged him at every turn. She was different. She put him back together after the Time War. And then... when she was safe on Earth, she risked everything to get back to him, to save HIM or die trying. And after the regeneration, when she showed that she could accept and love even that very alien side of him... she promised him forever, and not for the thrill of the voyage or the wonders of the universe, but just to stay with him as a person. Yeah. Lonely man like him never had a chance. :D

Sorry, I tend to ramble on, I could talk about Doctor/Rose forever.

needing to mate line
And here, I'm afraid, is where it comes to light that I'm Italian, English is not my first language and I learned it by reading fanfics and watching tvshows, I've got American and British all mixed up in my head and I'll never get all the nuances of the language.
Please help me, I don't get it! If I remember correctly, he says (whining?):"... but I just want a mate!" and Donna answers with: "well you're not mating with me, sunshine!" I thought he meant mate as in friend, as in he wants a companion who is a friend, as in he wants to travel with a friend. And Donna was just being her usual a little dumb/a lot sarcastic self. He'd have to convince/coerce her into coming with him, wouldn't he? She wasn't exactly ecstatic the last time, he "terrified her". Also, he says WANT. "I just WANT a mate". Might be my denial kicking in, but I really can't picture him WANTING a mate in THAT sense who isn't Rose. Not this early, at least. Not after S3, and him mentioning her one way or the other every ten seconds. He's still in the pining after Rose, lonely god phase. Isn't he?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...there is the idea of "a mate" as a friend in England. But I feel like this was more than that...I can see the funny side of it actually. If the Doctor starts doing some appalling things, as he does in Disheveled...then he tells her that he "just wants a mate"...meaning someone to mate with...like a biological urge.

I think we could deal with a strictly biological urge...and not only that...I think it could play into what I would like to see happen with Rose...basically that he goes with her to Pete's World and has a "normal life" of sorts...and mating. There is a rule: No sex in the TARDIS. But, Pete's World gives us a lovely out on that rule...because the Doctor and Rose can go there...and we (the audience, the camera) can stay here in our universe.

It technically doesn't violate the no sex or life for the Doctor if it happens in an alternative universe. Even if WE know that it is happening...we don't have to see it...which means the children aren't exposed to sexuality while watching escapist TV.

Yes, I do think he's still pining...but I don't feel it will be as overt as last year...because Martha isn't going to be prompting it. If I was doing this season...I would make it one of exploring other options to Rose...looking at letting go. I would scare the fans with lots of close calls. As he starts to do with Astrid. But, if I was RTD...I would have him walk up to the line on breeding with someone...then have her be evil and have him turn around on it and walk away. Then, I would have Rose back...and lots of longing looks and trying to be brave as they both think the other has "moved on"...only to have him throw in the towel on his asexuality at the final moment and kiss the stuffing out of her and ask if they can settle down...much like the last bit of VotD...when the truly happy man was the one with the house.

Also, from VotD...I think that the main reason the Doctor goes on fighting is that he feels he's the only one who CAN fight...but Rose is the one truly in that position. As Astrid points out...other people COULD help the Doctor. He's got Jack and Torchwood and Sarah Jane and her crew and all of his other friends on Earth to stand firm while he takes a little break. Rose Tyler, defender of her Earth...has nobody to rely on but Mickey, Jake and her family.

Rae
also able to talk about Rose/Doctor love for days on end.

[tazza-di-jo.livejournal.com]

I love the way you think. Biological urge? Yes, I could totally deal with it, and it could be a laugh riot. And all the longing looks "does he/she still love me?" :D Also, Pete's World? Brilliant. We could get four specials of Ten/Rose lovin', of sorts, and then... and then Tennant goes away *sobs* and we get a brand new Doctor in 2010. Makes sense. Which is probably why it won't happen. *sigh* I'm trying not to get my hopes up...

I don't really get the asexuality thing, because I only ever watched New Who and all I know about the Classic is what I researched and read online. But I understand that the relationship with Rose was quite the scandal for the old school fans. The line about "exposing children to sexuality" makes me laugh. As if they're not exposed enough everywhere they turn their heads. It's a part of life, not a dirty little secret, and Dr.Who could associate love and respect with the concept of sexuality, thus teaching valuable lessons. Bah, another subject I could go on forever. Let's not. :P

Btw, isn't anyone wondering what's it with the Ood? :D

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh...come on...

Associating love and sexuality is one of my personal favorite topics. I think the problem with, American television at any rate, is that we tend to pair couples that really have no chance at all for long-term relationship success and we make the show about as Miss Agatha Christie puts it in the trailer..."the thrill is in the chase, never in the capture." OR...we make it seem that sex is the carrot that you chase and chase and put up with all sorts of dysfunctional behavior for...only to find yourself having to go out chasing someone new.

As one who is frequently thrilled by my long-term partner as well as having many other emotions in regard to the relationship, I feel that we are selling SUCH a limited bag of goods to our children. Children should be exposed to sex as a beautiful thing that can be part of a deeper love and respect. All too often though, sex is considered not dirty but sort of a pointless exercise in hormonal release.

To me, having the Doctor wait for and remain loyal to Rose and then consumate the relationship in more or less traditional fashion is a far, far better lesson for children than "he must wander alone forever because he's a good guy." But, then, I'm not really a fan of the whole self-sacrificing model of nobility. To me, the truly noble people are those who have the capacity to love fully and completely. It's not cliched anymore...because we really don't see it that often in our current culture. Loyalty and enduring devotion based on mutual respect and love...is almost NEVER portrayed. Which is exactly what drew me to the Doctor and Rose...their devotion to one another...their genuine abiding affection for one another. It was, as you note above, based on really knowing one another.

Rae
thinking that the scene where Donna takes his hand...is on the Ood planet...and is about Rose.

[vinceliav.livejournal.com]

Itwould be nice if maybe the whole mate thing was him saying his hearts wish to Donna maybe after just missing Rose or something, and meaning Rose as a mate and not Donna.

Though before I read this I understood it as just a friend kind of mate too.


And I agree about Donna holding his hand. It isn't a romantic thing, it looks like she's trying to comfort him.

I hope your exactly right on all your theories :) they would make my inner fangirl squee...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Having watched the clip again...it is possible I think that he's explaining things...meaning mate as buddy and Donna is misunderstanding it all...maybe she's got amnesia or something...or things he's stalking her. I had heard through the totally unreliable grapevine that she sought HIM out for the companion gig. But it could be that he comes for her with the "Come with me!" line and then she gets all confused about it.

Rae
thinking no matter how we slice it...mate having a double meaning could come into play with Rose's return

[tazza-di-jo.livejournal.com]

YES.

Nothing to add. Just... YES.

[nostariel]

::belatedly butts in::

To me, having the Doctor wait for and remain loyal to Rose and then consummate the relationship in more or less traditional fashion is a far, far better lesson for children than "he must wander alone forever because he's a good guy."

This is why I'm kinda besquicked by all the Ten/Astrid stuff I'm reading in the spoilers for VotD, I think. I'm just really, really sick of the Alien Slutboi Tease thing....

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

No...really...there is nothing overtly squicky about Astrid. She represents Rose in too many ways. Add that to the fact that he's not the least bit in love with her...just charmed by her because she's so much like Rose and she also has that desire to see the stars that he has always found attractive.

The kisses you've heard about fall into safe categories. He's got the sorrowful goodbye kiss...sort of a pity kiss in a way...and the startled into breathlessness, that was rather nice wasn't it, kiss...like the one he shares with Reinette. The thing about those kisses is they offer him a sort of hope and then that hope is dashed...because only Rose really offers him the true love.

Rae
who is uber-sensitive to the Doctor kissing people but who had no problem with these kisses...or with Astrid...she's not really Rose...just an obvious substitute.

[morgaine-nicely.livejournal.com]

he's definately meaning he just wants a "friend" "mate" i'm sure of it lol i highly doubt they'll go that way with him and Donna. I really can't see them doing that, especially with Rose somehow in one form or another coming back.
I just wanna know HOW they're gonna do it dammit....
especiallly when DT has said he and Billie haven't filmed any scenes together..(with a smirk as he said it)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Okay...bit of a spoiler there...I am still essentially a spoiler free Rabid. However, it is hard to avoid everything. The reason it is so important for me to avoid as much as possible is that almost any suggestion of a plot point will send my creative mind scurrying around picking up threads of story and weaving them together.

I think David's smirk was about the anticipation of working together (and btw...where did you see him smirking, thus. I would love to see it, too). And I am completely unsuprised that they haven't filmed a scene together. I would be disappointed in RTD if he didn't have them apart for most of the first and even second episode. Donna and Martha need to get to know Rose...to see why the Doctor loves her and to see that she loves him. RTD needs to acquaint the audience with this new Rose, the Rose who has been on her own now -- defending the Earth for some little while.

And of course...the romantic tensions need to build to the breaking point. If it was me...I'd have them come together near the end of episode 2 and then have a flat out run for cover...they see one another...eyes lock...romantic sparks fly...but so do the alien missles or whatever...so they are separated again. Building up that anticipation to the point of our kiss. Because I do believe we are getting a kiss out of this, at the very least. Personally, if it was me...I'd even go so far as to give the audience a false sense of noble parting...a sort of..."Oh, so we've moved on" ---hand-shake and good luck...before giving in to the "I've missed you, I love you, that will never change" kissing part.

David and Billie both do that noble restraint thing so well...and also the eyes locking across a crowded room thing...that it would be a shame not to give everyone the full treatment of heartstrings.

David is right to smirk...and/or...twinkle...as he levers up the anticipation of that first meeting. And I think if RTD is the master of emo manipulation I know him to be..he will make us and the Doctor and Rose fall in love all over again.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Of course...another reason for the smirk could be that while they haven't FILMED any scenes together yet...they HAVE rehearsed scenes together.

Rae

[nostariel]

IAWTC so much I think my brain might fall out of my head cos I'm nodding so hard!

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

I love this theory completely. Can't say that I'm thrilled with the whole Time Lord equivalent of Vulcan Pon Farr that's being hinted at, but biological urges do not negate true love. I think Disheveled actually handled this issue beautifully. I am reluctantly curious to see what RTD ultimately does with it.

But truly--I cannot wait for reunification and closure for Ten's story. I do feel so much of VotD was still about Rose and dealing with loss. Let's let them get on with it, eh? Plus I hate that fact that on Torchwood, everyone gets to snog and have sex, half the time in a bi-curious way, and we can't even get a proper kiss between Ten and Rose, the truest love story ever told.

General thoughts about VotD? Well, I loved that the Titanic was not what I thought it would be, and I loved how in many ways its near demise was just as tragic as the original. I was shocked at how far RTD went with losing people, and the fact that Astrid could not be gotten back. Plus I loved Morton & Foon. They kicked such ass. And Mr. Copper was fairly adorable. Deserted London was a hoot and great attention to continuity. And loved the one liner about only Britain being Great. Still, what a downer of an episode in so many ways. Brilliantly done to be sure, but it makes me wonder at what's coming.

Plus, like others, I am looking forward to the return of the Ood. They so creeped me out in The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit and I can very much see Rose being on Ten's mind in a very aparent way. How could she not? I really think that was the turning point in their relationship, and where Ten finally realized that he did indeed want to give forever to Rose.

Shallow note: David Tennant in a tux + glasses = yum!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I laughed about this..Can't say that I'm thrilled with the whole Time Lord equivalent of Vulcan Pon Far because that's exactly where my mind went but also because there's this moment in the last part of Disheveled...right near the very end when Rose makes another Star Trek reference and the Doctor grouses "What is it with you and Star Trek?" And Rose says, "Can I help it Gene Roddenberry thought of everything before you did?"

And the Doctor huffs, "I've explained this already, Gene Roddenberry learned at my knee."

"So you say," Rose sighs. "So you say."

Meanwhile...yes, there was a lot of downer bits in this episode which makes me think we are in for a rough ride with S4 as well...probably hope held out and then snatched from our grasp. But I hope in the end...there's a coda...and we really do get true love back. Russell does tend to do codas...like the Doomsday scene on the beach and the final dance into forever in Casanova. My only hope is that for once he will think...why not have the REAL happy. Because this is Doctor Who...and it should be about hope not fatalism.

Rae
thinking the coda here...with Mr. Cooper was a happy one...so maybe there is hope for our couple.

[ladyofgallifrey.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I just read this after I posted - can I (do I dare) hope that Disheveled may yet have a 'happy' ending? I can't help it - it's a medical condition - happyendingitis. That's why following this show & this ship hurts so much...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh...I think you can dare hope...sure. "Happy" ending is the key...what I consider a happy ending may not be what other people consider a happy ending. And then...I am a firm believer in having the proper endings for stories. So, what I would consider the proper ending for RTD's story...isn't the proper ending for Disheveled.

Aibhinn's story about Rose/Ten had to end with marriage and children. But there are other types of happy endings. I know lots of people want Rose to regenerate but I feel that RTD is telling this story of a lost and lonely man who found someone who could offer him comfort for a time. He needs that comfort very much...and he has even stated several times over that the thing that makes Rose so important to him is her humanity. This is part of RTD's story...and I think, therefore, his decision to remove Rose from the Doctor's influence before she came to the point she's come to in Disheveled...was right for RTD's story.

My hope is that RTD completes his story as it is set up...because it really hasn't been set up for everyone moving on and being happy with the change. If that was the case...the Doctor would have been happy with Martha...and she wouldn't have been such a sappy love-struck shmoe...and also...Astrid wouldn't have had to die. Nor would we need Donna back...all of these things speak to Rose as one-true-love...and OTL means you have some version of happy ever after. RTD has his canon limitations...he has a way around those that he's carefully fashioned...will he use this set of circumstances to his advantage...is he able to see the ending his story cries out for? These are the questions we've yet to answer.

Rae
still keeping the RTD faith after VotD

[morgaine-nicely.livejournal.com]

god lets hope so, can we PLEASE forward all these posts to Rusty so that he makes it right this season?!! :)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

If only RTD and I are on the same wavelength with Rose and Ten...that would be the best thing ever for the show...I do, honestly believe, it is the key to weathering the David Tennant change to another Doctor and to keeping the huge fanbase.

Take this huge surge of people for the Christmas Special...highest ratings ever. Certainly some of that was due to Kylie's crossover popularity. But I also think no Rose fan missed this either...because the news of Rose returning leaked...and we hoped to see something hopeful in this episode. I know my anticipation was very high. And I do believe they will hold onto me with the promise of Rose coming back. So ratings should stay up.

Rae

[ladyofgallifrey.livejournal.com]

May you and Cat be right - please! (only problem is, we won't see the next Christmas special for ... 2 years?) Point me in the direction of the nearest padded cell, please.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I am hoping we have the Christmas Special I refer to in 2008. Did you feel they were going to skip that one? That would be a bit more alarming...I was sort of counting 2008 Christmas as the first of the Gap Year Specials. With two more to come. I think with the way the Christmas Special is drawing in viewers...I would schedule the new Doctor to appear in 2009's Christmas Special.

Rae
also hoping Cat and I are right...really hoping that I've got a read on RTD for this one thing...Rose/Ten to Pete's World.

[beck1.livejournal.com]

Just to weigh in I wasn't overwhelmed by Kylie Minogue's character. She seemed like a cheap Rose to me.
On the preview for the next series when the Doctor says "I just want a mate", I'm Australian and for us that word is used often and it just means a friend, I believe that the British use "mate" in the same manner, it's probably really common over there as well.

[morgaine-nicely.livejournal.com]

yeah i'm sure they're just meaning he's telling donna he just wants a mate for god sakes since he's had to deal with martha, etc and all the other stuf. He just needs someone to travel with him...

[beck1.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think he's just lonely and wants and friend that he can travel with.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

After rewatching...I think you all could be right...because that scene could be him trying to persuade Donna to travel with him. And it would make sense. And RTD loves to tease about things by giving us something rather ambiguous to chew on for the hiatus. You know there's going to be great smutty fiction out of that line, too.

Rae

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

I *finally* got to watch this!

I liked Astrid, and she had a lot of the same qualities that Rose does (the spunkiness, the desire for something more than a lower class job and a boring life, compassion, etc.), but we really didn't get the chance to know her before she was gone, so she ended up more like Rose-lite. It's just as well, since no one will replace Rose, and it's worthless to try (which is why I'm excited about Donna!). Kylie was okay...not a great actress, but better than I expected. I did have to laugh at Astrid dragging over a box to climb on so she could kiss the Doctor. I have the feeling I'd have to do the same thing! lol

Anyway, I think the Doctor responded to these similarities and the fact that she wanted to travel just for the sake of traveling. Plus, as much as he doesn't want to admit it, he's lonely and *wants* someone there, even if it isn't the someone he really wants. I felt terrible for him when he had to let Astrid go (yes, I did cry a bit...I'm a sap like that!). On top of all the other losses (damn, the body count was high! And what's with all the obese people biting it?? *is indignant for her weight class*) that was just horrible. I'm tired of the Doctor losing people right and left. He never catches a damn break.

And speaking of, I'm on board with your proposal. The Doctor should reunite with Rose, go live a life with her off-screen somewhere (I'd love it if it was on-screen, but that's not gonna happen!), and then come back and we can be done with Rose's story. I think their relationship is important enough to deserve a proper send off, then the Doctor can grieve properly over a life well-lived, and go on. Things are too unfinished right now and Ten regenerating after a life with Rose just makes sense (and would jive well with DT moving on, which all know he's going to do sooner or later). Wrap it up, Uncle Rusty!

My immediate reaction to the "mate" line in the preview is that the Doctor is trying to convince Donna to travel with him because he needs just that...a mate, a friend, a buddy, someone to keep him company who is NOT in love with him. But Donna is still reluctant to go along and responds with the cheeky "mating" retort. It might not go exactly like that, but "mate" definitely = friend as far as I'm concerned.

Next season looks like it'll be good. My pause button got a bit of a workout! The Doctor/Donna smooch looks like it's from the AC episode...it definitely looked purposeful and not at all romantic (possession? Donna making a point? who knows...). The hand touching/holding moment from the "volcano day" episode looked far more intimate to me. I wonder if the Doctor had been talking about Rose or something. Hmm. Three+ months is going to be a loooong wait.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I am now completely onboard with mate equaling friend and Donna simply misunderstanding it all. Maybe it's part of him talking her into going with him. It would be funny if the kiss was part of that too...and she just assumed he was after that sort of thing and was trying to get on with it. But I think your idea of her making a point is probably spot on as all those people are watching. So, Donna is probably trying to sell a bill of goods about she and the Doctor being a couple there.

Moving on after a lifetime spent with Rose is an entirely different kettle of fish from simply wandering forever. The Doctor is going to return to the stars...he loves them...but he also longs for cruises with someone and, I think, a house with doors. It will be good for him to get that all out of his system and for another producer to start fresh. It really is the only way to clear Rose's ghost out of the machine.

If you think about it...while you could bring Rose back to say one final goodbye...why bother doing that. She already said goodbye...RTD is keeping her memory alive for the Doctor and the audience. And it's not like we are all clinging to the idea of "what happened to Rose"...so that Billie can't get work and the show is tanking. So, he should wrap it up with a big old happy bow...and then...we can all move on with the Doctor. Also...book franchise set in Pete's World...it's a money maker.

The hand touching moment was intimate...and I figure it is due to another loss on the Doctor's part. And hopefully, over Rose. My pet hope is that when it comes to going with Rose...Donna, Martha, Sarah Jane and Jack are all there to give the Doctor a shove. This mollifies all the old school fans that want to believe that Rose is just a pal. But it also shows that the human race has come a long way and there are members of it that really want to do the right thing by the Doctor. People who realize how much he's done for us...and want him to be happy for bit.

Besides...I can almost hear Donna going..."You're letting her leave? Are you crazy? She's the one. You're miserable without her." Jack talking about what good is a long life if you never get a chance to live. Martha telling him that he loves Rose anybody can see it. Sarah Jane telling him Rose will wait for him forever. The whole gang basically ganging up on him. That's what I want.

Rae