rabid1st

A plan to bring these "friends" of his into power.

I think you're on track with this. He said outright that the Time Lords brought him back as a sort of ideal soldier. Wouldn't it make sense that they would have a failsafe of some kind?

And just a general observation that we seem to be losing a fair chunk of the population on a startlingly regular basis these days. :)

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...is a "paradox machine." So they can fix all of this in a flash...by crossing the time lines...but I think they will need two Time Lords to do it...so the Master must be deprogrammed and reluctantly help the Doctor. Then die...the anti-hero death. Meanwhile, Martha...needs to work out something completely human and brilliant. I do like her when she's not a doormat, mooning child. I enjoyed her snarling at the Doctor...though calling it HIS fault when it is hers...was a bit of a stretch. Still, it plays to what I think she needs...a really strong dose of xenophobia.

Rae

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...the Master...only to have the Master run away instead of helping...and then Rose could help...since if we listened to that lovely story of how you become a Time Lords...we will know that what I've been saying since PotW is now firmly canon...the ability to deal with the Time Vortex is what makes you a Time Lord...so Rose is a Time Lord...just a human one, rather than a Gallifreyan one.

Rae

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Rose is a Time Lord...just a human one, rather than a Gallifreyan one.

Quite possibly. I don't know, though, if we're going to see Rose in this finale or have further allusions to her. I would have thought that there would be references to her in this episode (however roundabout) if that were the case. But then again, she was quite present in Utopia, so who knows?

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...because that would be overkill. If the pieces DO fit together this way...Rose absorbed the Time Vortex and looked into eternity...and that's what the baby Time Lords do, too...Martha knows everything she needs to know at this point. She needs a time lord on her side...and that could be Rose.

And I'm thinking...if Rose came back to fix this...and fixed it...the Doctor still might not KNOW Rose was time lorded up...because the paradox would close the loop and he'd never get that knowledge...only we would.

Rae

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sensiblecat.livejournal.com

One thing I think we could all agree on - logistically there's no way they could film anything out in the open in Cardiff with Billie Piper. They could just about smuggle her in for a cameo.

There's a publicity shot of Ten and Martha in the papers - they're looking happy and relaxed and he's in the blue suit. That suggests things have been sorted out, at least to some extent.

I make no definite predictions, but it would be incredibly RTD to have him say something very nice, and potentially romantic to Martha - the fans all cheer, and then they wander back to the TARDIS holding hands, and guess who's in there?

Can't you just see that WTF expression and "Doctor Who will be back at Christmas?"

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WAS there in Cardiff...though not associated with filming the show...they said she was "visiting David." I haven't seen that publicity shot you are talking about...but it does fit in with my time loop theory...if he's in the blue suit. He was wearing the BROWN suit for the flirtatous tie scenes. So...what if...he never tries to prove anything to her...never goes to pick her up...but instead...simply has the S&J adventure with her...and says goodbye properly...or asks her along properly...at the end.

I would like her to turn him down though...and him to go off to find Rose. But that's just me. I would think...that the Master would still be out there in that case...it's just that Martha wouldn't have alerted him to the power of the watch. And UNIT would have destroyed the RACNOSS base star...or something.

Rae

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So they can fix all of this in a flash...by crossing the time lines...but I think they will need two Time Lords to do it

Someone else (I wish I remembered who, as I'd gladly attribute this!) said that the idea of un-doing the Toclafane's arrival is a little too much Bobby-in-the-shower. I both agree and disagree with this. It depends on how they do it. If everyone forgets it ever happened, I'll be miffed beyond belief. But it's possible it could be done gracefully.

I do like her when she's not a doormat, mooning child.

I do too. She had personality and -- well -- gumption in this episode. Good for her. But why not take Jack with her when she teleported, since they were close enough to touch? He's mighty useful.

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platypus

Hmm. I'd rather not see a tenth of the Earth's population dead -- plus, Doctor Who has never, ever did an unambiguous first contact that stuck. It's practically a running joke that aliens can do these enormously blatant things and still nobody believes in them. So... I'm not necessarily going to be surprised if there's some kind of rewinding. And the way things are looking... I dunno, maybe I'm high on adrenaline, but I think the show just might pull it off.

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It's practically a running joke that aliens can do these enormously blatant things and still nobody believes in them.

Right ... we have all these suspicious people looking for conspiracy theories and crop circles and pretty much not seeing the Giant Hovering Spaceships of Doom and such. I love it.

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...I thought of that when I started thinking the whole thing was wrong and John Simm wasn't the Master but the Valeyard...again. Yes...I know...that theory has been torpedoed.

But, this episode rather made me bring my Valeyard theory back...because of that whole perception field idea...and the Drums...and the jelly babies...and I can't help thinking...what if the Doctor somehow spliting from himself...like PSTD...his bad side would be the Master. And I wonder if all of this can be traced back to one point...when the Doctor went back to show Martha his tie...in Smith & Jones?

What if instead of doing that...he'd just asked her along...and she'd said, "No, I'm not really interested." OR...alternatively...she said fine but he told her straight out of the box about Rose and she wasn't jealous at all.

Rae

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...but when you are dealing with Time Lords...and alternative universes...anything is possible. Like...getting Rose back...go...get Rose back. He doesn't hear me. :sigh:

Rae

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platypus

OMG, I think I just said "has did."

*dies*

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Martha is a bit thick...lots of times...so the storyline can advance.

Typical companion.

Rae

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sensiblecat.livejournal.com

Sorry, I obviously wasn't concentrating back in the 70s - what exactly is a paradox machine?

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What a paradox machine is. But the idea of a time loop is that it creates a paradox. The Doctor created a paradox when he went back in time and took off his tie to convince Martha to go with him in S&J. Maybe Martha was never supposed to go with him. Maybe if she did...the world ended...or maybe it ends because she doesn't understand who or what he is nor what Rose meant to him.

A paradox machine...could potential FIX this problem...the Doctor would be alone again...but it would be okay because he'd met a new friend. Not a potential lover...but a friend...in Martha.

Rae

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miladyhawke.livejournal.com

Yup, I liked Martha here too for the most part ;) Finally starting to be more of her own person.

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Welcome to my alarmingly hilarious theory manufacturing journal. ;->

Time babies...indeed. You must not talk to the hand. You will find the hand...over there...in a jar.

:grin:

Rae

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miladyhawke.livejournal.com

Welcome to my alarmingly hilarious theory manufacturing journal.

I think I must have gotten a good whiff of your crack, because I have no other explanation for where my weirdo post came from :p

Time babies are still the answer to everything regardless.

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Much like 42 is an an answer. Or Buenos Aires. Or "What is celery, Alex?" No, wait...that last on is a question.

Anyway... I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that the need to use the Amazing Laz-Laser to zap David Tennant back to his pretty self...soon.

Rae

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I really dug Martha in this episode too. Forget being all mooshy for the Doctor and be Actiongirl!Martha. It's so much more easy to respect that. (I still generally like the character, but not when she's mooning over Ten. She rocks when she's kicking butt.) I loved it at those points when she sounded downright dangerous.

Also, I heart John Simm. Not entirely pleased with how the character was written, but I thought the performance was great. Hee! (You should check out Life On Mars. I think there's another ship there you might really get into. The female is very Rose-like in many ways, which makes it all the more pleasing to watch.)

Oy, I haven't been here in such a long time...

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That's because there is no new fic for you. Sadly.

I knew this would happen...I warned people...and they thought I was kidding. But I knew if I didn't finish Disheveled before the new Season started...we wouldn't get an update until after the season was over. I know my muse. She is only interested in writing fanfiction when she is interested in the canon. And Russell is rather like the sound of drums in my head.

Pretty much...you and I agree on Martha...I'll never be a fan of hers...but I like her much more when she is sounding dangerous and isn't mooning over Ten. I mean...really...I understand Rose loving him...they suited...and I even understand that all Time Lords give off this aura of trust and wonder so people can't help but love them. But still...Martha has been too much of a non-entity all season because of her blind devotion. I want her eyes open and her action girl boots running.

Rae
wondering what you didn't care for in the Master? The kinetic Ten-on-speed manner? Or his romantic nature? Or what? In a way, he too has been poisoned by humanity. And I can't help but think that the reason humans are so important to the Doctor is because of their potential as Time Lords.

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xfphile.livejournal.com

I have to admit, I'm surprised you didn't mention the Doctor telling Martha that his perception-distorter thing (I'm too tired to look the name up), which was 'knowing it's there but not wanting to know it's there' was like being fancied by someone and they don't know you exist. I personally squee'd (and then shot myself) for joy - maybe the woman will finally GET. A. CLUE.

So - just out of completely random curiosity, what'd you think? Squee worthy? Or about damn time?

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...he was still being oblivious...so it was just more of the same...only an obvious reference to her crush. It was like...so you think he's just teasing her along? No. He can't see her at all. Anymore than she can really see him.

Rae

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xfphile.livejournal.com

I don't think he's teasing her along. I really think that a large part of his obliviousness (is that a word?) is faked. I mean, when SJ Smith told him in 'School Reunion' that she never had or would fall in love with someone else after him, he didn't even blink - and she flat-out said it. To me, that implies that he knew (or suspected) how she felt.

No, I think Ten - once he DID realize the major crush factor - has been ignoring it a) because he hates hurting people and b) because being oblivious has worked so well in the past; it's the old cliche`: 'If you ignore something long enough, it'll go away.' Well, it hasn't gone away, so he gave in and said something.

And there's my 3 cents, FWIW.

xfphile

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I think the reason I didn't really go with him being "insensitive"...is that the Rose emotions were so linked to Martha's crush at the beginning...and I don't feel he was sharing his Rose obsession on purpose at that time. When we see it happening...I mean...like in The Shakespeare Code. But as you say, he probably CAME to realize it...and has been working at keeping it in check. That's very reassuring because it means he won't be lightswitched into "seeing her devotion." Not that I ever thought he would be...because RTD has been quite to purpose.

I do believe that the Doctor usually does his level best to discourage people from obsessing over him. Which is why I was particularly moved by him telling Rose her love was "quite right, too." It was really the same as saying he loved her back. It was...oh, yes, I've always known and that's grand.

I've always felt that things were as you note in School Reunion...that he was telling Sarah Jane that the reason he couldn't come back for her was that he couldn't encourage her affections. I did feel that he meant the affection was becoming a two-way street. In other words, he was saying, you loved me and I had to end it before I loved you too much to walk away.

Then, he has the immediate conversation with Rose...after Sarah Jane...and his emotions are so raw (people see it as a proposal even)...because he admits there he's gone beyond that "just walk away" line with Rose and loves her in return. "No, not you," he says...because there is no chance Rose can be left behind. It is far too late for him to save himself the pain of losing her.

So...after all this rambling...what I mean to say is...your interpretation is most likely the correct one. He sees the crush, probably HAS seen it from the moment when Martha says, "I only go for humans" and he grinned tightly and encouragingly said, "Good." It's just that she has refused to let go of it...and so he's had to become more and more pointed in his rejections and possibly in his Rose references.

I don't think the Doctor is one to discuss his own emotions...and from time to time...I wonder if it's not that he's not in touch with them but that...they run too deep to discuss openly. With an ordinary bloke (as Martha keeps calling him) I would say that's nonsense...but the Doctor IS an alien and for all we know...could feel love very intently and permanently indeed. All we can be sure of is...he's probably NOT having a human reaction.

Rae

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It was some of the camp that I didn't like. Just didn't seem to work onscreen because it distracts from seriousness of what's happening in the scene. For example, the smiling/frowning faces interfered with Saxon killing his entire cabinet in cold blood.

I didn't mind the Ten-on-speed manner because I thought Simm did a great job of performing that. (Dare I say maybe even better than Tennant himself? His performance drives me crazy sometimes.) Some of it made the character even scarier than it was already.

The romantic nature I actually dug because it was an interesting contrast to his more violent side. Saxon is capable is doing all these horrible things to people, yet he seems to feel real affection for Lucy. Maybe she's his Rose.

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Life on Mars. Life on Mars. Life on Mars.

Check it out and tell me if you like Sam and Anne.

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I am too busy obsessing over Rose/Doctor just now to start up on another couple. However, I do intend to look about for Life on Mars and see if I can check out Simm in another role. I think he's pleased me so much because I really...REALLY loathed the Master's pompous failed-magician ass.

I hated his anagrams and his constantly showing up in every good old monster episode of Three, pronouncing the Doctor foolish only to be put down yet again with childish ease. He rather reminds me of Snidely Whiplash, twirling his mustache, cape swirling as he says, "You're sweet Nell is doomed. You'll never save her this time. BWAHAHAHA!"

YAWN!

Simm and Jacobi play him as fragile, emotionally and mentally, and that makes a huge difference to me on how much I like the character. Suddenly, he's unpredicatable and so...interesting. Of all the things Russell has "reimagined"...this change of old school canon pleases me most of all. That said, though...yes, I feel that Simm goes over the top a few times into cartoon crazy...like he does on the tarmac at the airport. Though the zipping of his lips for the President was truly funny.

And I sort of enjoyed his "thumbs up" and gas mask schtick for the cabinet. But during some of his Valient behavior I wondered how he ever got elected. Though, the Doctor seems to be saying that people maybe can't SEE how mad he is...that could be all the perception filter will do is make people remember the madness.

Tennant seldom drives me crazy with the frantic...I rather enjoy it...having him in my head as I write is a treat...but I know a few of my cyber-buddies are with you on that point. Oddly, what I dislike is when Tennant does the sudden emphatic shouting..."No power on Earth can stop me." And then he's stopped ten minutes later by a bombastic, bully of a father-figure. Puh-leez!

As for Lucy...I do hope she IS his Rose, because it plays to the idea of Time Lords having real emotions. I do feel if she's NOT an alien and the journalist did seem to rule that out early on...that she's going to die...but if it IS by the Master's hand...I hope he plays it out as tragedy...killing her to spare her and, by doing so, horrifying the Doctor.

Rae

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Or, the Doctor could do something that results in Lucy's inadvertant death. I want to see how Saxon would react if his companion is harmed.

As for Tennant performance, it usually is the combination of yelling and the associated off the wall behaviour that I find unappealing. Last season, he hasn't quite figured out the yelling bit yet and went way overboard. He's gotten a bit better this year, but the problem is still there.

I think the only angry scenes I like from Tennant are the silent ones, such as in the Family of Blood. Now, that was a pretty chilling scene to watch. When the Doctor is silent in his anger, you know bad s**t is about to happen.

And I sort of enjoyed his "thumbs up" and gas mask schtick for the cabinet.

I actually liked this bit because it reminded me of Jack Nicholson's Joker. It was the part right before I wasn't crazy about.

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Here's some clips of John Simm in other projects, if you're curious.

As Van Gogh --> This is just a musical montage, but just from looking you can tell that he's not the Master here.
As a stoned raver --> This is his Trainspotting from his younger days.
As a guy living in the 70s, while in a coma
A tense moment for Sam --> John Simm cries a lot in this show, which I think is great. He's so good at it. ;)

It's too bad no one posted clips of him in State of Play or Sex Traffic. He was great in those as well.

And a bit of Sam and Annie. These two are such a sweet pairing.

On the roof --> This is my favourite Sam/Annie moment and it was from the first episode.
Meeting Annie --> Also from the first episode.
Walking until the mind can't think up anymore details --> Gotta love music from the 70s. ;)

And... This offers a pretty good explanation of the show's premise.

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auntiesuze.livejournal.com

I liked Martha FAAAAAAAAR better in this episode (and from the previews, probably the next one, too). See, RTD, ditch the mooning and we really *do* like her! :P

I'm not 100% sure why only Martha teleported out (when both Jack and the Doc were right there, Jack especially), but that's got to be setting something up.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who thought "Daleks" when the Toclafane showed up. What if they're some sort of reworked/mutated versions of the Daleks that were sucked into the void? HmmmmMMMMmmmmmmm....

I cheered when we got to see a bit more of Gallifrey, and it's nice that the Doctor is having a *bit* easier time talking about it. The Master backstory (and a wee bit of Doctor backstory, too...geez, eight is awfully young to have all of eternity staring you in the face!) and the intense phone conversations between he and the Doctor were just FABULOUS. I don't care if they change our assumptions from the past 30-odd years...I *loved* it!

I like John Simms' version of the Master. He's a bit more blatantly insane...but I think that fits into your theory of him being under some sort of mind control. I want to know what's up with his "wife". Who the heck is she? She seems as bloodthirsty as *he* is!

Part of me quibbled about aging the Doctor (since, according to the man himself, he doesn't age, he regenerates), but I'm chalking it up to the artificialness of using Lazarus' technology. If the Doctor *did* age...this is what it'd be like. I guess. *shrug*

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