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rabid1stAnd everything under the cut...
The question arose in another post about the number of RTD seasons (assuming he leaves after 4) that have now focused on Rose Tyler. Three of the four have been about her. I know...people will say that the Doctor has been very happy this season and there have been very few Rose references and what in the WORLD could I be talking about? And those people need to go back and count the references and get over thinking David is playing happy this year...because he's not.
What I am wondering is about Martha being in love with him. Because...all of Ten's companions have been lovelorn to an extent...even Jackie was kissing him. Harriett Jones called him the most extraordinary man she'd ever met. Sarah Jane was definitely lovelorn. Mickey wants the Doctor's attention almost more than Rose's. Jack, obviously, adores the Doctor and has kept on for over a century. Martha is all about her heartbreak that he won't even look at her. Reinette says he's the only man save the king that she ever loved.
I think that Russell is trying to establish that all companions love the Doctor to some extent. Martha and Jack show us that the love will mostly be unrequited. So far, only Rose has been requited...all others left behind or ignored. And sorry, Reinette fans...she is abandoned when he rushes to that fireplace. That he feels sorry for her and tells her to pick a star...can be directly compared to what he tells Joan. If he was only feeling sorry for Rose in Doomsday, he wouldn't be moping at the end of S3 about her.
I do believe the Master is going to be loved, too. Certainly, Yana was loved like that...with a sort of unrequited devotion. I think that may be what HELPS open Martha's eyes to her being under a spell of some kind. And her mother's devotion to Saxon will mirror her own devotion to the Doctor. Only now...Martha knows that the Doctor just leaves you behind...and the Master goes one step further and kills you.
The cure for loving the Doctor...is to REALLY see him as an alien and someone who is NOT like you. The cure is to want your own life. This is what happened to Tegan and Nyssa and Romana and others. Rose is so unique because she WAS like him...she continued to adapt to his lifestyle. This is actually what so many of the Rose-bashers don't like about her. They call her cocky and smug and too stupid to know she's not unique (which is ironic when you think about it) and several people dislike Rose for taking Mickey for granted (like the Doctor takes people's love for granted). Unlike with the Doctor...they kept wanting to see Rose knocked down a peg...because SHE wasn't worthy of that attitude in their minds. But maybe she was in RTD's mind.
Even if S3's finale turns out to be all about Martha becoming worthy by doing some great feat...it won't negate the fact that Rose was a big part of S3...because it won't be about MARTHA...it will be about Martha being worthy of Rose's spot. This season has focused too long on the loss of Rose...her comparison to Martha...the changes it makes in the Doctor...and the idea of keeping a companion alive like that in this show (really in any show...don't they usually just bring the long lost guy up right before he reappears?)...is unique. Rose therefore is unique.
Rae
The question arose in another post about the number of RTD seasons (assuming he leaves after 4) that have now focused on Rose Tyler. Three of the four have been about her. I know...people will say that the Doctor has been very happy this season and there have been very few Rose references and what in the WORLD could I be talking about? And those people need to go back and count the references and get over thinking David is playing happy this year...because he's not.
What I am wondering is about Martha being in love with him. Because...all of Ten's companions have been lovelorn to an extent...even Jackie was kissing him. Harriett Jones called him the most extraordinary man she'd ever met. Sarah Jane was definitely lovelorn. Mickey wants the Doctor's attention almost more than Rose's. Jack, obviously, adores the Doctor and has kept on for over a century. Martha is all about her heartbreak that he won't even look at her. Reinette says he's the only man save the king that she ever loved.
I think that Russell is trying to establish that all companions love the Doctor to some extent. Martha and Jack show us that the love will mostly be unrequited. So far, only Rose has been requited...all others left behind or ignored. And sorry, Reinette fans...she is abandoned when he rushes to that fireplace. That he feels sorry for her and tells her to pick a star...can be directly compared to what he tells Joan. If he was only feeling sorry for Rose in Doomsday, he wouldn't be moping at the end of S3 about her.
I do believe the Master is going to be loved, too. Certainly, Yana was loved like that...with a sort of unrequited devotion. I think that may be what HELPS open Martha's eyes to her being under a spell of some kind. And her mother's devotion to Saxon will mirror her own devotion to the Doctor. Only now...Martha knows that the Doctor just leaves you behind...and the Master goes one step further and kills you.
The cure for loving the Doctor...is to REALLY see him as an alien and someone who is NOT like you. The cure is to want your own life. This is what happened to Tegan and Nyssa and Romana and others. Rose is so unique because she WAS like him...she continued to adapt to his lifestyle. This is actually what so many of the Rose-bashers don't like about her. They call her cocky and smug and too stupid to know she's not unique (which is ironic when you think about it) and several people dislike Rose for taking Mickey for granted (like the Doctor takes people's love for granted). Unlike with the Doctor...they kept wanting to see Rose knocked down a peg...because SHE wasn't worthy of that attitude in their minds. But maybe she was in RTD's mind.
Even if S3's finale turns out to be all about Martha becoming worthy by doing some great feat...it won't negate the fact that Rose was a big part of S3...because it won't be about MARTHA...it will be about Martha being worthy of Rose's spot. This season has focused too long on the loss of Rose...her comparison to Martha...the changes it makes in the Doctor...and the idea of keeping a companion alive like that in this show (really in any show...don't they usually just bring the long lost guy up right before he reappears?)...is unique. Rose therefore is unique.
Rae
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(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-20 07:42 pm (UTC)I think like many fans pointed out and I see you as well have shined some light upon, Martha needs to break out of his love sick spell she’s in. Unlike Rose she joined the fun because she fancied the Doctor but Rose never did. I think she fell in love with the Doctor along the course of her journey. Martha contributes quite a great deal to the team but I wish her intentions for being there weren’t based solely on the fact that she wishes the Doctor would fall in love with her. That’s just setting up yourself for disaster because not even Rose, who we now know he loves, got her happy ending. Perhaps it’s impossible when it comes to him.
Ay, I kind of forgot my main point but wonderful meta, Rose definitely is special although it’s so easy to slip and go against her, but thanks to fans like you I’m reminded of why I love her so much.
:D
(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-20 11:43 pm (UTC)I feel like it's dangerous to blindly love someone to the point where you admit you will "do anything for him" even though he "doesn't even look at" you. It's romantic, sure. But it's also requires such a reduction in character that being reciprocated in her affections would probably NOT be the best thing for Martha's development.
Now, I suppose people could and have said the same thing about Rose. But as you pointed out, Rose didn't really worship the Doctor via unrequited love. She came to love him over time and she changed slowly over time, as did he. They built a relationship organically. Both of them giving in equal measure to the cause.
Until he loosened up a bit in The Doctor Dances, for example, and showed he did want her to notice him as a sexual being...Rose ignored him as a sexual being and concentrated on Adam and Jack. The Doctor blatantly encouraged her response to him by suggesting that he was a man and he did "dance"...and things grew organically from that.
Rae
(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-20 10:32 pm (UTC)Rose is so unique because she WAS like him...she continued to adapt to his lifestyle.
Yup. That's one of the things I loved the most about her and her relationship with the Doctor. She came along out of curiosity and need to see the "big picture" and she fell in love with him during the journey. She really started living the day she met him and got to see the world. That's why they clicked so much, that's why they were soulmates. She loved this life just as much as he did and it really showed...
And I so agree about this season being so full of Rose. She's everywhere, in everything he does or doesn't do. She's the reason he's still fighting... and somehow, it really seems like RTD's still trying to show how special Rose was, as a character, a companion and in the Doctor's life. I feel like he's *still* really trying to set her apart from the previous companions and from Martha, especially. I'm afraid we'll get to see Martha shine, proving that the Doctor did right in inviting her along, but like you said... she'll be never be Rose.
I believe there are three extraordinary people in New Who, The Doctor, Rose and Jack. That's really what I've gathered so far.
Right...Disheveled...
Date: 2007-06-21 02:13 am (UTC)So...I'm off to make something happen...I guess.
As for Rose being one of the three extraordinary people...yes, it does certainly appear that way...even if the Doctor has some kind of lightswitch moment of seeing Martha as extraordinary, too. I really don't think that the Doctor HASN'T seen potential in Martha. Someone was chastized at T&C for saying that the Doctor doesn't like Martha. And I must say...I agreed with the chastizer a bit...
I don't think that we have seen any indication that the Doctor dislikes Martha. I think we've only seen that he continues to love Rose and Martha continues to compare herself TO Rose and be hurt by that. I think we have had it firmly established that the Doctor loved Rose and can't seem to get over it. He believes he SHOULD get over it...he believes he's done the right thing by going on...and he likes Martha...but none of that is helping him feel better.
And I wonder what RTD is going to do to make him feel better. Just give him an new and more deadly enemy to fight? Or let him talk out his feelings with Jack? Or...what? It seems to me we are heading toward another terrible blow for the Doctor as he must fight the last of his kind. Possibly fight against his kind being reborn...as the Master is likely to want to bring back the Time Lords. And it will be up to Martha to comfort him afterward?
Or...as I've said...will he just go...well...now...that was bad...but luckily I've seen the light and we can all move happily forward now...thank goodness you were here, Martha.
Rae
thinking maybe he could regenerate into a Doctor that loves Martha after she saves the day...yeah!
Re: Right...Disheveled...
Date: 2007-06-21 03:14 pm (UTC)Good luck! But I'm sure it'll be good.
even if the Doctor has some kind of lightswitch moment of seeing Martha as extraordinary, too. I really don't think that the Doctor HASN'T seen potential in Martha.
I agree, I do think he saw some potential in her and that's why he asked her to tag along. Not point in denying that.
I don't think that we have seen any indication that the Doctor dislikes Martha.
Yup.
I think we have had it firmly established that the Doctor loved Rose and can't seem to get over it. He believes he SHOULD get over it...he believes he's done the right thing by going on...and he likes Martha...but none of that is helping him feel better.
I agree, but then he doesn't see Martha as anything other than a simple companion, a friend. That's what Martha fans can't accept, while it was very different with Rose. Anyone who's watched the show since 2005 and who's honest with themself can see that. And I, for one, don't think Martha's been such a good friend, mainly because of her stupid crush. She doesn't care about his feelings, the fact that he's still mourning Rose, and everytime the name pops up, she can't but roll her eyes, and that's not very helpful. I really dislike that a lot. The only thing that matters to her is her own need for her "feelings" to be requited. She knows he's miserable deep down, but she doesn't care... if she did, she'd try to find a way to help him.
Just give him an new and more deadly enemy to fight? Or let him talk out his feelings with Jack? Or...what? It seems to me we are heading toward another terrible blow for the Doctor as he must fight the last of his kind. Possibly fight against his kind being reborn...as the Master is likely to want to bring back the Time Lords. And it will be up to Martha to comfort him afterward?
Yeah... I don't see how she could ever comfort him, be the kind of person that he needs... I think having Jack on board a little might be the first step in the right direction but yeah, he won't stick around...
Or...as I've said...will he just go...well...now...that was bad...but luckily I've seen the light and we can all move happily forward now...thank goodness you were here, Martha.
That could very well happen, but that doesn't mean that his pain over losing and missing Rose will fade away. How could it? I think the point of the season was to show that he would never forget Rose, that he truly loved her more than anything and anyone else... but life goes on and he doesn't have any choice but to do the same. I just wish he had a real friend with him.
thinking maybe he could regenerate into a Doctor that loves Martha after she saves the day...yeah!
You really think that could happen? I'd lose a lot of respect in RTD if that happened...
Mostly...I was being sarcastic
Date: 2007-06-21 03:53 pm (UTC)Rae
being pretty stubborn about the Doctor needing a good friend to tell him it's okay to go spend a little time with the woman he so obviously loves.
Re: Mostly...I was being sarcastic
Date: 2007-06-21 04:35 pm (UTC)That's why they had to tear them apart in the first place. They wouldn't have parted, had it not been for the war and Rose getting trapped in Pete's world.
Yes...but if she IS still human
Date: 2007-06-21 05:33 pm (UTC)When you are dealing with two wobbly balls of space-time then you can hit any ball from the other one at any point. Also, I don't know if they would NEVER part...if he went...because if he found a way to go back and forth a bit easier...then it would just be like a soldier going off to war...and he could leave her for a time. However, given the nature of the show...I would opt for...he goes...lives a full and fruitful life with Rose...and returns to our universe with their grand-daughter as companion.
This leaves the door open for Rose/Ten movies and books...but doesn't leave the door open for Billie to return...unless...well...yes it does...because maybe she does have to pop over for some reason in the course of a long life with him.
Rae
Re: Yes...but if she IS still human
Date: 2007-06-21 06:59 pm (UTC)See...I feel this would be in the way of being
Date: 2007-06-21 06:28 pm (UTC)I don't buy that he wouldn't leave Rose if there was a good reason to do so and the kids were old enough to spare him...especially if he knew how to get back to her...as the time lines run separately...he could literally pop over HERE...and spend the next few regenerations having adventures yet be back THERE in time for tea.
And I think it actually fits in far better than her traveling with him...because that's sort of his job...and she's the woman he loves. I can definitely see that just like a policewoman might not be partnered with her husband...the Doctor and Rose might want to avoid that as well. Having Rose in the line of fire, even if she would happily be there, isn't really good for the Doctor's nerves. This to me is just a matter of maturity...they could stand to be separated for what would amount to a short time for both of them if it was the most expedient thing to do. What they couldn't take...and he is having a very hard time taking...is the idea of being separated forever.
Rae
Re: See...I feel this would be in the way of being
Date: 2007-06-21 06:53 pm (UTC)Ok, I'd buy that... if there was a good reason for him to leave her, knowing he could come back.
And I think it actually fits in far better than her traveling with him...because that's sort of his job...and she's the woman he loves. I can definitely see that just like a policewoman might not be partnered with her husband...the Doctor and Rose might want to avoid that as well. Having Rose in the line of fire, even if she would happily be there, isn't really good for the Doctor's nerves.
See, this is where I can't agree, at least about Rose. I'm so sure that if there was a chance for her to travel again, even if she could have forever with the Doctor in her world, she would take it, pack her bags and leave. She loved the Doctor, of course, but she also loved travelling and she knows he loves it just as much and I think they both need that life, even if it's dangerous. Yes, he would freak out for her, from time to time, but I doubt that'd stop them.
What they couldn't take...and he is having a very hard time taking...is the idea of being separated forever.
That's for sure... it's true that he might consider the option of staying with her and stop travelling after everything that happened, but I don't think she'd accept it... I don't know, I just can't see it.
Re: See...I feel this would be in the way of being
Date: 2007-06-21 07:41 pm (UTC)Rae
thinking the reason he sent her to Pete's World in the first place would come into play here...he did that because he didn't think he could protect her...AND because he thought that she would rather be with her mother than with him. Now, he knows better...but now Rose knows better too...she knows if he loses her...he might not be able to do his job. I think knowing that...might allow her to stay home...so he stays safe.
Re: See...I feel this would be in the way of being
Date: 2007-06-22 08:01 am (UTC)He is more than happy that she's alive, for sure... but I feel like everytime he says she's "happy", he's trying to convince himself because he can't bear the thought of her being like him, misereable without her other half.
I know of what I speak because my SO and I started out in the Sheriff's Office together...but once we became seriously involved...I had to find other employment because he simply could not concentrate on his job. And you notice how the Doctor just swans off and let's Martha deal with things? I know he could do the same with Rose and she would be fine...but he might not be fine. He might be very distracted...dangerously distracted.
You are right, he could be distracted... but I think it's tough to say because these two, Rose and the Doctor, they're not like us. I'm not sure they would think and feel like us, on this subject.
Now, he knows better...but now Rose knows better too...she knows if he loses her...he might not be able to do his job. I think knowing that...might allow her to stay home...so he stays safe.
I'm not sure Rose could possibly know how miserable the Doctor still feels. She knows he loved her and everything, of course, so she knows it must be very hard for him, like for her. But he's still an alien, who's lived (and lost so much) for over 900 years. I don't think the Doctor ever thought it would be this hard, so I can't see how Rose could know that.
I honestly don't know how things would go if they ever were reunited... but yeah, I'm leaning towards the theory that they'd go on like before.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 01:22 am (UTC)I keep wanting to like Martha. There are moments when I do. And the moments when I don't are almost completely the fault of this stupid crush that RTD is forcing down our throats (the other's have to do with this supposedly smart person doing something ridiculously stupid). My hope is that now that Martha has heard the extent to which the Doctor cared for Rose and why he is missing her presence, she'll give up on the lovesick puppy routine. I mean, it's been like throwing yourself at the widower while still at his wife's funeral! C'mon now...
I want things to get back to being closer to the original formula. Martha is a close friend, companion, all that jazz...but that's it. No different from the rest. As you say, Rose is/was unique, and it's time to get beyond the same expectations for other companions. That being said, I don't want Martha to be in the classic "The Doctor will rescue me" mode, either. That was one of the changes to the new series that I *really* liked - having the companion not be so helpless. I definitely don't want to lose that. There's got to be some sort of balance that can be achieved, you know?
I've never really understood the Rose-bashing (although I know one person who just *rabidly* hates her). I've never found her cocky at all. Young, maybe. Inexperienced. But that's all. And the big difference for me is that you could see, almost from the very beginning, how much she meant to the Doctor. Not just in the old "love 'em as a close friend" way...but so much more. And that is obviously a direct result of the Time War and the destruction of Gallifrey and the Time Lords. The Doctor is NOT the same Doctor that we knew 20, 30, 40 years ago.
Also, RTD is examining the personal lives of the companions for the first time. In the past, we only got sketchy accounts of who they were, their families, etc., so it was far easier to see each companion as very much the same. Personal stuff is messy and complicated, but it also fleshes out the individual. That is the choice that RTD made when he was conceptualizing the show...we would get to know the companions FAR better than we ever had before. And you either roll with that or quit watching, don't bash the companion for it!
Ah well...I'm probably drifting off topic. So I'll shut it now. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 01:24 am (UTC)Like me putting an apostrophe in "others". *facepalm*
(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 02:19 am (UTC)(the other's have to do with this supposedly smart person doing something ridiculously stupid)
What things that Martha has done would you consider being stupid? I'm sure part of it is my inablility to find many faults in TV characters I don't hate (I must be an executive's dream viewer ;-P), but I can't think of anything Martha's done that I can't see doing myself.
I mean, it's been like throwing yourself at the widower while still at his wife's funeral! C'mon now...
I think I have to disagree, because, as I've seen at other sites, I don't think Martha really knew how the Doctor and Rose were separated until Utopia. Before that, he only mentions that she's gone, right? I think, before Utopia, she saw it as him pining over an ex who left him, and she just thinks he should move on. It's only now that she can see it as it really is--as more of the widower situation, like you said.
And now back to your regularly scheduled discussion. :-P [/hijack]
(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 02:48 am (UTC)On the throwing yourself at someone at the funeral bit. Sorry, Suze, but I must agree that Martha did not know until Utopia that Rose wasn't "happy with her family" as the Doctor had said...and keeps saying if Jack is any indication. After all, he tells Jack the same thing...she's fine...happy...living the life on a parallel world. I think that's what the Doctor has been telling himself. I think MARTHA is more likely than anyone to tell the Doctor that Rose ISN'T happy without him and isn't likely to have forgotten him.
Freema once said she thought Martha and Rose would be friends. And I sort of disagreed with that...they do have radically differing personalities...however, I do think they might have developed an understanding. I have hopes that now that Martha has more of a full picture of Rose...she might be more charitable about her. Because to this point, Martha, I believe has felt that the Doctor was comparing her as a "companion" to Rose...and that Rose had just swanned off one day and yet, the Doctor went on devoted to her. So...until just now in the story...Martha was falsly thinking that loving him was going to be that thing that makes her stand out from the crowd.
And I wouldn't refer to her so much as stupid as oblivious to her surroundings.
Oblivious things she's done (the list is quite long...I believe she does at least one of these in every episode...but just to cover a few):
1) Doubted the Doctor was an alien after clearly learning there ARE aliens and seeing he knows all about them.
2) Being completely unaware of Sally Sparrow in Blink. In The Shakespeare Code...the Doctor tells her Rose would know what he wasn't seeing...Martha makes no effort to notice anything beyond herself.
3) Losing the watch in Human Nature when that was the only thing she was charged with doing.
4) Giving the Doctor away to the enemy in Human Nature.
5) Being astounded about his hand in Utopia. Again, when she knows he can change his molecular structure.
6) Pressing the whole watch issue in Utopia instead of getting the Doctor immediately. I mean...what DID she think was going on?
7) Continuing to be blindly devoted to someone who is clearly not interested in her...not looking for any other way to relate to him than romantically.
Rae
who would dislike Martha's character no matter what...because I can't really imagine being in love with someone who I don't know very well and who never even looks at me. It just seems...creepy to me.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 03:08 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 03:12 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 03:51 am (UTC)No problems. Intelligent discussion is fun!
Yeah, I think oblivious is better than stupid. But just to be the Devil's Advocate, I'll go over your list:
1) I guess, but I think there's a part of all of us that, when confronted with something wildly different from the norm, just doesn't accept it and "get it" at first. Also--before they find the plasmavore lady, the only aliens she's seen look like rhinos. I'd think that the Doctor looking so human threw her a bit.
2) Haven't actually watched Blink, so I can't comment on that one.
3) Ignoring the fact that the watch had to be lost in order for the story to work the way they did...I don't think you can say that Martha lost the watch. John Smith did. It was never in her possession. Should she have stolen it from him so she could watch it at all times? Then Smith probably would have sacked her for stealing or something. That was one of the few things I didn't like about Human Nature--yes, Doctor, this watch CAN'T BE LOST, so you leave it with your human self, who DOESN'T REALIZE IT'S IMPORTANT! GAH.
4) In the dance hall? She only knew that Jenny had been possessed--she could have thought that since Jenny wasn't there, she was okay. Also, she has to find some way to talk to him, and after all that's happened I don't see Smith letting her lead him away to talk somewhere in private. What do you think she should have done?
5) Does she know he can change his molecular structure? He tried to mention regeneration in 42 but didn't get far. I'm not sure she knows about it. And even if you know something can happen, theoretically, seeing it in practice can be something else entirely.
6) Eh...I dunno. I think she freaked out about it, and once she realized she shouldn't draw his attention to it, it was too late. I can imagine myself reacting the same way.
7) Yeah, this isn't Martha at her best. I don't have much experience at all with matters of the heart, but I can see how love--even infatuation--could render even an intelligent woman less rational.
I'd love to hear more of your thoughts!
who would dislike Martha's character no matter what
Awww...that's okay. I understand, even though I don't feel the same way. Like I said before, I think I must be an executive's dream viewer--there aren't many characters on TV that I hate.
And this is my problem
Date: 2007-06-21 02:57 am (UTC)Why does she have the right to expect him to get over anyone? I really don't understand this. How is it any of her business?
Expecting him to get over her so he can love Martha is just... it's just so selfish and arrogant on her part. It's as though she hasn't a shred of empathy for him regarding his loss over Rose and if that's the case, how could he see her the way she wants?
Re: And this is my problem
Date: 2007-06-21 03:09 am (UTC)EXACTLY. And she keeps saying things like she's known the Doctor for "so long" and I'm like...honey, you don't know him at all! Back off!
Re: And this is my problem
Date: 2007-06-21 03:59 am (UTC)True, but...don't people do that all the time? The, "Why are you pining away over someone who doesn't care about you when I'm right here?" reaction. Might not be the most admirable response, but I can see it being the most real.
To give it a real life twist--I have a friend who really likes one of the guys in our big group of friends, but he doesn't feel the same way. And as much as I'd like it if they could work it out and end up together...at some point she's going to have to move on.
Re: And this is my problem
Date: 2007-06-21 04:21 am (UTC)Yes they do. It doesn't make it right. In fact, I dumped several acquaintances for doing it to me. It's why I feel so strongly about this subject.
Re: And this is my problem
Date: 2007-06-21 04:33 am (UTC)But even though it doesn't bother me as much, I still think they could have handled it better. If they felt like Martha HAD to fall in love with the Doctor, they could have had her be more conflicted about it--knowing that he didn't feel the same way and trying to keep it to herself and get over it, but struggling with it. I would have liked that.
Re: And this is my problem
Date: 2007-06-21 04:25 am (UTC)It's just the snarking on Rose (because of the crush) and the, well, the crushiness is getting to be a bit much.
Re: And this is my problem
Date: 2007-06-21 04:35 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 02:58 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 03:10 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 04:01 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 03:05 am (UTC)Okay, "stupid" might be a tad harsh, but Rusty n' company made SUCH a big deal about her being so smart...and I'm not seeing anything special there. One example that comes screaming to mind is not unplugging the MRI machine when it was overloading (in "Smith and Jones"). I mean...hello? That's what I would have done (and I was screaming it at the screen through that whole scene). But like I said, that's just a small part of it. The lovesick thing bugs me WAY more.
I think I have to disagree, because, as I've seen at other sites, I don't think Martha really knew how the Doctor and Rose were separated until Utopia. Before that, he only mentions that she's gone, right? I think, before Utopia, she saw it as him pining over an ex who left him, and she just thinks he should move on. It's only now that she can see it as it really is--as more of the widower situation, like you said.
I'm not saying that this is Martha's fault, really. I guess I should have blamed this on RTD. How could he not have seen how tacky it was to have Martha throwing herself at the Doctor all season? And I do believe that in the Doctor's rejection of Martha's advances, it's obvious that Rose was something particularly special. Yes, we have the perspective of the omniscient viewer, but I can't believe Martha is so thick that she doesn't realize to at least back off, you know?
And, hell, if she didn't realize how much Rose meant to him by the time John Smith was scribbling her in his journal ("perfect Rose", etc.), then she's reeeeaaaaaally thick.
I guess that's my point. I don't want her to be like that. So...I guess you're right, I should be ranting against RTD's hamfisted handling of the transition! lol
And it comes down to this, Suze
Date: 2007-06-21 03:26 am (UTC)Because I would say if he was lying about the Master...maybe he was lying about Rose being the Doctor's true love, too. Though...that would mean he was not only lying...but hamfisted as you say.
Rae
Re: And it comes down to this, Suze
Date: 2007-06-21 04:10 am (UTC)Re: And it comes down to this, Suze
Date: 2007-06-21 05:03 pm (UTC)And, no, Rusty didn't want us to forget about Rose...as if we could! If he'd made no mention of her at all, we would be complaining about *that*! lol I guess we just can't be satisfied viewers...
I *do* think that RTD believes Rose is the Doctor's true love (soulmate, whatever), because everyone else involved in production has said pretty much the same thing. But if he does a 180 on us? Well, I'd be very disappointed, to put it mildly.
Wow, I guess my comments got the ol' debates going, eh? :D
Re: And it comes down to this, Suze
Date: 2007-06-22 02:41 am (UTC)I don't think he is. Lying about the Master was protecting an upcoming story arc/season. Lying about Rose would essentially undo two, almost, three seasons of canon as far as the Doctor's characterization. I don't see that happening.
It would also be an uprupt about face as far as the Doctor's feelings for Martha if he were to suddenly start loving her at the end of Season 3 or in Season 4.
You can lie at the beginning to protect an upcoming storyline but you can't lie at the end to undo existing canon. He can't say she's the soulmate and then undo it after it's already done.
He can; however, allow the Doctor to care for someone else but she will never be Rose's equal in the Doctor's life.
Sadly, we can't rule that out.
Re: And it comes down to this, Suze
Date: 2007-06-22 02:42 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 04:10 am (UTC)Maybe she thought that whatever the alien did to it couldn't be undone by simply unplugging it? I dunno. But I do think Martha's had her good moments: figuring out how to stop the crabs from attacking the car in Gridlock...using the lightening to electrify the elevator in the Dalek two-parter (blanking on the names)...getting Lazarus up to the belltower in The Lazarus Experiment...being completely awesome with the gun in the beginning of Family of Blood, and then coming back at Joan with her medical knowledge. Trust me, I'd still LOVE it if Rose came back somehow...I just don't hate Martha. *shrug*
But like I said, that's just a small part of it. The lovesick thing bugs me WAY more.
I understand. That does annoy me too...just not to the extent that it bugs you, I guess.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 05:09 pm (UTC)Oh no, I don't hate Martha at all. And, in fact, it's those moments where she shines (like you mention above) that make lesser moments stand out so starkly. I guess I shouldn't be quite so hard on her...Rose certainly did her fair share of stupid things along the way (like saving her father and completely mucking up the timeline...has she never watching "Back to the Future"??? lol).
I understand. That does annoy me too...just not to the extent that it bugs you, I guess.
That's cool. Yeah, it tweaks me, but it's not like I'm gonna stop watching! :D
(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 08:47 am (UTC)A new series of dr who will be coming soon, here is the episode guide:
Ep 1:The Encounter Of The Master Pt 1
Ep 2:The Encounter of The Master Pt 2
Ep 3: Cyber-netics Pt 1
Ep 4: Cyber-netics Pt 2
Ep 5: Cyber-netics Pt 3
Ep 6: John Smith Returns
Ep 7: Skull + crossbone
Ep 8: The Family Of Blood Returns
Ep 9: Kahn Pt 1
Ep 10: Kahn Pt 2
Ep 11: Aeroporto
Ep 12: The Light burns Pt 1
Ep 13: The Light burns Pt 2
Am I the only one thinking of Rose for that two part finale? I'm remembering when she was glowing when she took on the heart of the Tardis, and the wearwolf's comment to her, "you burn like the sun".
I'd be really happy if she will be around in those eps, but I'm really hoping she'll be around even before that.
Turthfully, that looks like a joke
Date: 2007-06-21 11:24 am (UTC)Rae
Re: Turthfully, that looks like a joke
Date: 2007-06-21 01:20 pm (UTC)I did think it was a little odd for the full season four episode guide to be released already. They likely are still filming, and usually ep titles don't get out until they at least get to filming that ep, or maybe a bit before, if the script pages for one ep go out before they finish filming one or two before it.
No Probs
Date: 2007-06-21 02:17 pm (UTC)Thanks for sharing though...even if I'm not much on wanting spoilers.
Rae
who supports RTD wholeheartedly on lying to protect his big surprise but now doesn't trust what he says about anything.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-06-21 12:26 pm (UTC)I want happy Doctor back, because I feel for him like I would a friend that was in such distress. Plus, on a more analytical note, I don't see how they can revert to happy Doctor in series 4 without some resolution for the character. RTD has gone to too much effort to portray him as broken over Rose to just leave it at that.
I know it's all website teaser stuff, but have a read of my journal from yesterday that gives me just the faintest glimmer of hope for the next two weeks. Potential spoilers, obviously.
Hope is a good emotion. I like hope.