This just in...I continue to be fickle

[rabid1st]

Some more Doctor Who spoilers under the cut tag but I'm not overtly spoiled here...so don't take this as a license to expose me to everything I'd rather not see...all I do is watch the news and trailers...so I'm not exactly Miss Well-Informed...and I don't want to be because I really...truly...want to stay a Dr. Who fan...for RTD and DAVID.



Mr. Saxon (played by John Simms)...is the Master. That's a bit of common understanding. But I said it before...and given the news clisp...I'll say it again...I don't think he is. I think he's the Valeyard. The Doctor gone evil due to his own psychological baggage. His go it alone, meglomania has led to him taking charge of humanity rather than allowing humanity to go on being idiotic and self-destructive. And he's "More than a match for the Doctor." Because he knows every trick the Doctor might pull.

And...well...despite Martha kisses and fuzzy weddings and a sweeping romance novel cover shot of the unconscious Martha in the Doctor's arms...a Valeyard showdown...is telly I'd like to see.

Rabid is one of the few old school people NOT salivating for the Master to return. I like the idea of the Valeyard much better. Especially in New Who where his loneliness is such an issue.



Rae

Comments

[bohemianrose24.livejournal.com]

Now that's something I'd be interested in seeing. My only concern is that it's a bit Star Wars. I've noticed the similarities before...what with Anakin going evil and crazy because he's this lonely misunderstood power and he keeps losing everything he cares about, and the Doctor seemingly always on the verge of the same path. You could definitely see it in Runaway Bride. That said, it would be pretty sweet to see Doctor vs. Evil Doctor. I'm not an old school fan (it was mostly before my time) so I need to go look up all the Valeyard stuff, since I've never heard of it before. It would just be too predictable, in a way, if it was the Master, though I wouldn't say nay to his reappearance at some point either.

As for this Martha fuzzy business...I'm not bothered by the kiss anymore because it doesn't seem romantic at all, and with the way they had him feel about Rose, and who the Doctor is, any wedding is going to be out of some necessity and not because he wants to marry Martha. If it goes the way of romance, I'll be disappointed, because then it's just RTD et al giving in to tv stereoptypes and whatnot, and not keeping with the tradition of the show, at least from my understanding...

Technically... I think it's Pre-Star Wars

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

So not Star Wars. Though I would have to check exactly where it happened in Old School. It doesn't predate New Hope...but I'm pretty sure it happened pre-"I can save him, he's good I know he is." And way...way before any new school Anakin.

Really...I think it's all around different when it's yourself...and you DON'T know that you are good at heart. I don't know that the Doctor believes in himself as much as that he has no other choice but to go on.

And, honestly, I don't think it will go the way of romance. I think they are going to outline the differences...show subtlty and such. Like the kiss...it is all about HIS reaction to it. There is none of the squeaking "Yep! Still got it!" of the Cassandra/Rose kiss. Nor any of the "Come 'ere!" sexy growl of Nine/Rose. Nor even the shy smile of sweetness after the helmet kiss. This one is perfunctory to him...which is what it would have been with Rose if say...he'd just been saving her life there during Bad Wolf.

Yeah...he WAS saving her life. But he was also in love with her and getting a bit of a kiss.

Rae

Re: Technically... I think it's Pre-Star Wars

[bohemianrose24.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean the original, I know that pre-dated the new Star Wars, I meant bringing it back. And not so much that it's intentional but that people will make the comparison anyway.

And the nice bit about that is, the Doctor doesn't believe in himself. He's very realist that way - He knows he's done terrible things, and he's not quite sure he can ever really come back from them, nor feel he's worthy of being called "good".

I've always felt that at first, what happened between the Doctor and Rose was unintentional, aside from a slight nuance toward attraction, until they kind of realized what was happening and moved it gently in that direction. I think you're totally right about the Doctor and Rose (and Martha) that way.

In that sense, I figured, it wasn't so much a betrayal of original Who, and it wasn't just giving in to popularist demands. Whereas, and I don't really think they'll do this, if they turned right around and had the Doctor suddenly proclaiming love and making commitments (re: doing Domestic) or any of that and having some sort of pronounced romantic relationship with Martha, that would be.

~L

Re: Technically... I think it's Pre-Star Wars

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

Return of the Jedi came out in 1983 while the Sixth Doctor didn't emerge until 1984. The Trail of a Time Lord (season 23) didn't air until 1986. So yeah, Star Wars does pre-date The Trail. ^.^; However, the concept of dualism is timeless and Stars Wars is far from being the first to utilize it in fiction. That and the concept of the Doctor and the Valeyard is a different scenario entirely as Vader never had to confront the manifestation of his future/darker self. So I think your idea of the Valeyard coming back still has much merit, and I would actually prefer that over the even more cliché return of an arch-nemesis like the Master.

Ah...so...someone looked it up

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I knew we were close. And I knew A New Hope definitely predated which can be used to say the whole concept pre-dated if we believe in George Lucas. However, I stand with you on it really not being about Vader confronting himself. He actually doesn't do that so much as have a savior figure rescue him in the form of Luke "bright light" that he is.

And the Master is too cliched...and steeped in old school...and I would bring him back only much later in time and then...in a way that is not so much "Oh, he survived" as genie in the bottle...because when last we saw the Master...he was rather fit to be bottled.

Rae

Re: Ah...so...someone looked it up

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

Sadly, this is the knowledge that I know off the top of my head. ^^;;; Yes, I am the uber geeky guru of useless fan knowledge. =P

[nostariel]

I really, really don't want it to be the Master.
The Doctor being the last is the crux of his character in New Who and that would be just…no. Not good TV.

And beyond that...the Master is overused

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And completely expected. The Doctor would even expect it once he figures out he's dealing with a Time Lord he can't sense. He would say well..."Of course, if anyone could survive and avoid detection it would be my oldest enemy."

And then the truth comes out and BAM! It's the Valeyard and much, much worse...and also...it's sort of self-fulfilling because the Valeyard can laugh at his younger self...and say, "Oh, you thought you weren't alone? HA! You are...all alone and doomed to nothing but pain and loneliness forever."

Rae
thinking I would like to see David play that out.

Re: And beyond that...the Master is overused

[nostariel]

God, yes.

"I'm so old now. I used to have so much mercy."

Chills.

It never ceases to amaze me that Ten is waaay scarier than Nine, despite his outward cuddliness.
I also think it would be a great way to explore the Doctor's unbelievably huge psychological issues. I mean, nothing good can come from accepting the title of the Lonely God. That's just asking for trouble, is what that is.
And? DT would ROCK playing Evil!Doctor. I don't know how he does that, the uber-scary, but I think I like it.

Also...really...I think nothing would

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...entice me to watch S4 and a new Doctor like having the Valeyard be the new Doctor. I would be waiting for his turn to evil...for the other shoe to drop.

Rae
thinking David will knock it out of the park on emotion

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

Mmm. I thought it was the Doctor-carrying-Martha picture that drove you nuts. ;)

I actually liked the Master as an adversary...until they overexposed him to death. He was a great nemesis, but they stuck him in every single freakin' episode there for a while. If he'd been more like the Daleks (cropping up repeatedly, but not constantly), I would have been more happy.

The Valeyard is a *really* interesting idea. I haven't thought of him in ages, but the Doctor having to face his "dark side" again would be a great thing to explore. As you say, with all the psychological baggage he's toting around these days, it would make sense.

Pfft...you know me too well

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yep! That was the shot that tore it for me. The kiss I might have done too. I protest it in...solidarity with my Rose. But I believe it has it's uses. However, the romance novel cover is purely gratuitous in my less than humble opinion and it made me sick to my stomach. I don't think I would have enjoyed it if it WERE Rose in that shot.

It really is the old school in me in almost equal measure with the Rose-shipper that objects to the sex-boy in space thing. Yes, the Doctor is a romantic figure...by his very nature but is he going to kiss every companion from now on? Is that going to be a running gag?

Well...why not? I suppose...maybe if we ride it out it won't matter in the long. As I've said...the Rose kisses weren't really the center of the story anyway.

As for the Master. Overused. And so...not fun for me. And...I think THE DOCTOR is likely to assume it is the Master. Of all the people to survive...his oldest enemy. Yes, he would believe that. And then, it turns out to be much...MUCH worse than that. What if the Doctor felt the only way to stop it was to kill himself? Would his well meaning friends allow it?

Rae

Re: Pfft...you know me too well

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, I would have guessed the kiss, except you said that wasn't the worst one, to you.

Having seen it now, the kiss a bit too clinical to be romantic (I also noticed that his hands are positioned pretty much how they'd be for his "mind rummaging" trick)...but it also lingers a bit too long for it to be completely perfunctory. I don't like it, but I think I can live with it.

But I agree with you about the romance novel cover shot. Ick. Me no likee.

Re: Pfft...you know me too well

[webeh.livejournal.com]

Also, what happens right afterwards screws with the romantic factor. ;)

You know what's kind of odd? I think that both Martha fans (some, not all) and Rose fans are against the idea of another ship. Peronally. I'm hoping that Martha just ends up being good plantonic friends with the Doctor. No crushing, but maybe some harmless flirting and lots of bickering like kids.

I agree with you, web-y

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

This is the thing...it offends me more as an old school fan than as a Rose-shipper. As a Rose-shipper I can see him unmoved by it and Doctor-ish and I, honestly, think that RTD is a Rose-shipper anyway.

As an old school fan, I'm ready to have an old school companion...as good friend to the Doctor who is there for her own ends rather than to simply support his emotional needs or satisfy her own. I think Rose works as "true love" because she's exactly where the "true love" character belongs...on the homefront. We can't see...and you know wouldn't want to see...the Doctor having emo meltdowns every week. Nor, really, should we be as attached as I am (and thousands of others are) to Rose Tyler.

If they go down the romantic path again...they run a risk of seriously dividing the audience. Rose shippers bail now...Martha shippers bail next time. Eventually, you have no fans left but the manically disloyal.

Rae

Re: I agree with you, web-y

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I wish to GOD that they will just leave the Doctor romance behind and go back to the way things used to be in Old Who, where the Doctor's role is that of a mentor and a friend or even a father/brother figure to some rather than playing him up as an emo slutboi. Let the Doctor and Rose have their unique, romantic relationship and leave it at that. I don't understand why they can't just bring in a second companion to play the romantic interest if they insist on trying to sell the series from a romantic angle. It would anger a lot less people, both the Old School fans and the Rose-shippers.

God, I need to go back and watch some Old School now. Second Doctor should make me feel better. Ah yes, Two/Jamie/Zoe - now there was a great TARDIS crew...

Re: I agree with you, web-y

[webeh.livejournal.com]

Oy, I really hope RTD doesn't push another ship. Why? Because this is so unfair to all the female companions and a bit insulting towards women in general. A woman can't travel with the Doctor without falling madly in love with him? (Seeing how Sarah Jane put some of her hopes on hold for several decades made me feel sad.) C'mon...

[maypanic.livejournal.com]

I join you in the ficklemobile.
Not really familiar with old school Who, so I went and read up on the Valeyard after reading this earlier- that would be brilliant.
Previews are useless because they're so often intentionally misleading. Trying to learn not to get upset over anything, because there's sure to be a different explanation than the immediately obvious. The purpose is to get people talking and build anticipation- which they're doing rather well.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Haven't seen the romantic cover, and I don't think I want to. I actually love the kiss shots. It's his expression the moment before that cracks me up. I'd love to icon it but spoiler police would shout at me.

I think we may be in for a similar emotional arc to S2. Partly I think they do it to get publicity and cover all the varied fanbases. He'll be a bit of a slutboi for the first half, or at least an emotional liability. And then Cornell and Moffatt come in and take over for the wake-up call. We get a two-parter that absolutely ratchets up the emotional tension - think TIP/TSP, or even Doctor Dances in S1, then a couple of consolidation eps and finally the huge finale.

I can't wait to see the conversation with Martha straight after Human Nature. I mean, the background to that. He's just married someone and presumably had to leave them almost immediately, Martha's burning up with unrequited love, he's already broken, or at least bruised, Rose's, Reinette's and Sarah Jane's hearts, not to mention his own......and that's before we get to Jack. If she doesn't call him out I shall probably write that scene myself.

Hey! Hey! I'm a bit of the spoiler police

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...myself here. Did you not see when I said don't share lots of extra stuff with me? It is telling that I don't really care anymore...or I would be all over you for all this massive added info about weddings. People who don't like spoilers are people who are either creative or senstitive or both. Basically, we need to have complete information or we are tormented by the myriad possiblities. You could very easily have ruined Disheveled forever just now, sending me into despair or off on a creative tangent.

That said, I happen to agree with you though...about the emotional rollercoaster...but not about Martha being heartbroken...I imagine by the Human Nature episodes she will be over her jealousy and coming to the conclusion that she's not really in love with him at all. I think HE is more likely to be feeling confused about everything than her. And then Jack comes back.

I'm interested in what Jack knows...he would assume Rose was gone because that was the last thing he HEARD...but then...he heard the TARDIS leave and he knows about Ten and the Sycorax and even the Battle of Canary Wharf. So, is he expecting Rose to be onboard? Or does he know she was lost? What sort of comparisons will he draw? How hurt is he to have been left behind?

Rae

well...

[04nbod.livejournal.com]

all my thoughts on the kissing scenario are in my journal(my first post actually)its quite spoilery although the spoiler i mention was revealed on breakfast TV- yay for GMTV.I also noticed how when he carries martha it is like when he carries a dead grace up the steps in the TV movie.

As for your valeyard idea, i love it! I go to outpost gallifrey and they are all certain it is the master and to have it turn around to be the valeyard would knock me off my seat.

Are you planning to watch series 3 then? I've heard that there are a lot of rose references in it so i will be watching to see if he finally comes up with the L word but i'm not holding my breath :)

I think my heart has stopped... *weeps*

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

I've actually been avoiding any spoilers like the plague for fear of anything that might remotely hint at Martha/Doctor ship. I wasn't actually planning on watching S3 until there was an absolute certainty of Ten staying the hell out of another canon ship. But then, today, actually just now, I went on to YouTube to check on my video comments, and what do I see on the side menu but the BBC releasing a spoiler of THAT SCENE, screen cap and all. I didn't have time to avoid looking at it before it was too late.

I want to f*ing die.

Back onto topic, tho, I adore the idea of Valeyard coming back. I think it's such a great idea that there exists out there the embodiment of all the darkness of the Doctor's soul, and it makes so much more sense now that the Doctor has endured not only the destruction of Gallifrey but the loss of Rose as well. I've had the idea in my head for some time for a fic where this future incarnation of the Doctor is responsible for ripping a new hole between the dimensions just to get back to Rose, not caring how many worlds he destroys or how many innocents suffer in order to achieve it. Probably won't ever get around to writing it, but the very real possibility of the Doctor descending into this darker form is quite a frightening and intriguing thought!

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go dig a hole to live in, because my despair knows no bounds. Seriously, where's the damn shovel. I'm done.