What would/will it take?

[rabid1st]

More Doctor Who Musings

So...I posted my no Rose/no Rae manifesto/wailing-in-the-wilderness last time out. But today...I was listening to the Children in Need concert in Cardiff via BBC Wales Radio...and I was feeling all uplifted and moved and such.

The announcer said David Tennant was the best Doctor ever. And I have to agree with that...he is the best Doctor and I adore him and I think it IS because he's lovable, funloving and slightly dangerous all at once. I do want to go on watching him be the Doctor.

So? What would it take to keep me watching?

I'm going under this cut to answer so as not to spoil anyone any further than I already have...

I want evident mourning. And to know that he hasn't given up on getting back to Rose. That the hope of doing so is close to his hearts. Like Rose...I want to believe they can't be separated "forever." I honestly think a romantic, knightly quest like that suits the Doctor. And it suits the modern Doctor far more than alien-celibacy as a reason for no sex with the beautiful and alluring and funloving girls he travels with all the time. The BBC censors don't want the sex...and here is the perfect reason why there is none. After all it could take him YEARS to figure out how to get back to Rose. And he might need the help of other Time Lords or entities to do it even then. But he's not the sort to give up, is he?

I think Dr. Who should be fun. I don't think Rose's memory should dominate the show but it should be referenced every so often the way they currently reference the Time War and his grief over that. Loving Rose should become part of the fabric of who the Doctor is and he should be true to her because she is still out there on a beach at Bad Wolf Bay, waiting for him for at least five hours. So it should come up if someone makes a pass at him or he is tempted to settle down. If he's trying to unite two lovers. If he has to give a passionate speech about love enduring hardship. If Jack comes back and brings up how he gives up and leaves people behind. Whatever.

I think I could go on watching the show if they cooled it on the romance and let the ideal of Rose as his soulmate become part of the fabric of the mythos surrounding him. And...it must be said...if I can continue to believe they will be reunited some day. I am reminded for example of Robin Hood and Maid Marion (Coincidence that Marion is her middle name?)true to each other despite years of separation. Of course, I'm not a fan of that firing the arrow part to bury him...I really want David to end his run with a Rose/Ten reunion. They can start the next Doctor up a hundred years on. Make it just like Chris with no real explanation about what happened when he takes up with the next companion in line. I see this scenario as a win/win for the BBC because it would create an alternative universe Rose/Ten loop that could spawn books and movies and such and yet the tv show format would remain sacred. But...if they do that...I still want to SEE Rose and Ten reunited on-screen. <<<--Because that's the money shot and fingers crossed they will do it.

Comments

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

I think you should keep watching the show. You write such wonderful fic and have such amazing plot ideas, it would be a shame for you to stop watching. There are shows that I have stayed with after my fave is gone because there is other things to keep me invested. DW just isn't one of those. But you have its voice in your writing and should keep with it.

I will go on record saying that I love DT and Ten, but CE's Nine was my Doctor and I still miss him terribly. But I love both. Your ideas make my shipper heart happy, but from all I have read and heard about the history of the show and its companions, I don't think it will happen. I think there will be some mourning, but trying to find a way back and having a reunion, I would love that so much, but I don't see it happening. :(

I agree, Kamm...it probably won't happen

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

The whole goal of the show is to move forward...to have a new Doctor and new companions every so often. And I think Russell is aware of that aspect. But he lucked out with Chris and Billie and David...and that luck won't last. He must endear Martha to us. He seems to think he WILL do that, from what he's said recently about the character coming into her own.

Time marches on and we must one day accept no David Tennant, too. The premise is now set up to have unlimited regenerations and the show could run for years yet...but today's viewers are jaded...we want arcs and resolution and the old format won't give us that. So, it remains to be seen if the Doctor going blithely along will appeal to such a huge audience as it's had. I think there are definite advantages, as I've said to a Rose reunion being his goal...mostly because it is "impossible" as he's said. So it doesn't have to happen for years. It doesn't have to happen on air.

Most of all...if they decide to do it as I've suggested above...at the end of David Tennant's run...it doesn't have to harm the series in the slightest. All it would do is create a Rose/Ten loop in space/time for books and possible feature films and such...and Lord knows...that works for the BBC.

Rae

[alyl.livejournal.com]

I'm conflicted about this. On the one hand I love Doctor (both Nine and Ten)/Rose and I can't imagine I'm ever going to love his relationship with anyone else like I loved theirs. This part of me wants it to be established in canon--undeniably--and for the show to reflect this.

On the other hand, there's another part of me that wants Rose to move on. I want her to find a life completely her own and her own adventures and as an extension of this I feel I owe the Doctor the same benefit. I don't want her forgotten but I also don't want them both to be latched to the past unable to move forward. Not to mention for this to happen, you'd have to have Ten move on enough to finish out his run on the show only to return to her, standing in the same place in time where he left her. He gets to move forward while she gets to wait until he's capable to come back to her. It rubs me the wrong way somewhat.

Also, I can't help but feel it's slightly problematic if canon were to show Rose as the Doctor's, or even just Ten's, soulmate. A part of me feels that it's like saying that because I loved her best of all the companions (or maybe even that RTD loved her best) she gets promoted to soulmate status whereas all the rest are just out of luck. It seems unfair to the others who have claims on him in different degrees...even if it's what I really think in my own head.

And now I feel as though I've talked myself in circles so I'm off to watch Torchwood to distract myself from missing both the Doctor and Rose.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Ah...well...I suppose it depends on if you are an idealist. I am. Russell appears to be, too. He sold me completely and easily on what he was trying to sell...without explaining it at all...I understood that Rose was the soulmate (his word not mine) that she completed the Doctor. That she was a companion "so wedded to the Doctor that she would literally stay in the TARDIS until she died." And that "he would never leave her."

I don't see that as sad or limiting. I see that as uplifting. People, real people, do, in fact, spend their whole lives together and enjoy each other to the end. It's rare but it's not sad. It's profound.

And really...Rose wouldn't be standing there waiting for years on the beach...or living in the past...I agree it would be sad for her to do that. But he's a Time Lord. He could go back to her on the beach, five minutes after he fades away. So, the only one we are limiting here is him. And maybe he craves limiting...he's lamented the "life he can never have" more than once. What would a human lifespan be to him? Like a twenty year marriage to us. Yes, it would be hard to watch her wither and die...but he was already prepared to do this.

My problem is I find it impossible to believe they COULD move on...with the circumstances as they stand. If Rose had been killed...certainly I would find it sad for him to mourn her forever. But Rose loves him and he loves her and she's right there...beyond his reach...how can he be the Doctor and not look for a way to reach her?

I would find it sad for either of them to mourn forever, even now. But do you honestly think they would limit each other or something? That Rose would be better off with someone else? Or that somehow it's better that the Doctor remain open to other short-term relationships in future? I can't see that.

We have two people who love and support one another and always have...and they continued to move forward in their relationship all the way to the end of it. And quite honestly...I can't see Rose/Ten having a problem with boredom or senseless arguing or money or whatever it is that tears couples apart. They get along...they enjoy each other's company.

As for her being most loved of all the companions...well...why not? He has, in 30 years, never had a sexual relationship...never so much as been tempted to fall for someone except in the minds of the fanbase and (we could say in revisionist history...he was tempted by Sarah Jane). The BBC held firm to the ideal of the show being a children's program for Rose...and will probably hold firm to that ideal for the future. So this proposal works for them. And, in fact, since any other companion would ALSO have to go...what's the point of investing in ANOTHER relationship? I mean, beyond the fanfic stage...which people will do anyway. The more tortured he is...the more faithful...the more people will pull for the new girl to 'make him happy, again.'

And finally...while you are conflicted and despite my arguments I respect that. :->

I don't see that my ideal scenario (that Ten/Rose reunite at the end of David's run...send him into exile or something) stops the Doctor from having other loves at a later date. In fact, I think the BBC might reject it because it leaves the door open for other companions with other Doctors down the road or in the past. In fact, it opens the door further than ever because you could then postulate that Rose is TEN'S soulmate but not the Doctor's and allow that maybe he DID have a similar relationship with another companion/alien siren/whomever.

Rae
hoping you go on happily...but still not sure if I will.

[bubonicplague.livejournal.com]

I admit I do not understand the love for Ten, as he just never seemed to click for me. But I am quite with you on Rose, and how her memory should not be dropped from the show.

[alyl.livejournal.com]

I completely understand what you just said. And part of it is that I know that if I hold out for Ten/Rose I won't be able to enjoy the program from this point on and that makes me sad.

In theory I have no problem with Rose and the Doctor wanting to be with each other forever, and I love the idea of him coming back from her. I think my problem is Rose's age. She was 18 when she met the Doctor and part of the problem is that it seemed that it never occured to her that she could be ANYTHING without the Doctor and that worries me for her sake. She was so young when she met him and they latched onto each other so much that she was never able to come into her own, individual potential I feel. In fact, towards the end it started to seem to me like she was clinging to him so much, so scared of losing him, that she started to lose what made her HER. Part of it was because she loved him and obviously didn't want to lose him and that doesn't bother me. It's understandable. But the fear she had of losing him...she really truely thinks she would be nothing without him. Not just that she would be devastated and it would break her heart but she would literately not exist without him.

It is this idea that makes me worry about him returning moments later. If he returns moments after he left she would never have the potential to see that everything she did while she was with him was partly because of she was her and not just because of the Doctor. Maybe she would, maybe she would grow and come to these realizations while standing beside him but without actually seeing it (which we wouldn't if it was how they ended the Ten storyline) I would worry that she never did. I guess I would have less of an issue if she had been older, and more sure of her own place in the universe, before she met the Doctor. Part of this is the writers fault. The other part is that I'm neurotic and worry way too much about the characters I love.

This of course isn't saying that you're wrong or that I wouldn't be jumping up and down like an insane person if it were to happen. It's just the Doctor is SO MUCH his own person, even when he's devoted to Rose, and I want her to be the same. I think I feel that the writers dropped the ball a little. They didn't show me that Rose was capable of growing when she had the Doctor to lean on so I can't help but to hope that she can at least use these events as a way to do it. It's not the way I want it to end but it's a way for me to rationalize it enough for ME to move on just enough to go forward.

[tsukikage85.livejournal.com]

Amen. Although I do differ on one part... I think it'd be okay if the Doctor move on eventually, as long as it's like a widow moving on, never stopping loving the old. Of course, I'd also be highly pissed if he developed that kind of relationship with Martha or even the companion or two after that, because that would just be too soon. And if David leaves before then... All the better.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Ah...well...I can totally sympathize. And you should do what you can to make it work for you. Upto and including, ignoring this next bit. ;->

But I don't tend to see Rose as an 18 year old overwhelmed by the Doctor. I don't think she was that in awe of him to begin with. She thought he was "sad." And I think we see loads of development from her...she get's Time Lorded up. She becomes capable of standing him down in Doomsday...and he's not happy about it.

I, also, think that given the Doctor's overwhelming personality (people seem to love him at first sight) she was VERY hard to convince. She held off telling him she loved him. She avoided the couple thing for ages. She was still talking about leaving him when they met Sarah Jane. She toyed with the idea of other men...Adam, Jack, Mickey. The Doctor was the best choice for her...not the only one.

And in the Satan Pit she is perfectly capable of organizing people to her will. She, also, does this in Fear Her, saving his bacon for the third time I think. And she doesn't so much follow the Doctor's lead as consider his arguments with how she handles the child there. He follows her lead to crack the mystery. In Love & Monsters, he steps aside and lets her handle things with Elton and then follows HER lead to reunite the lovers. In Doomsday, she takes the psychic paper and sets out for answers. She is also the leader of the little group that forms, making decisions all on her own as to what they will do. She's not waiting to be rescued, even though she is happy to see the Doctor. She's learned to read the monitor...no longer asking "What's it say?" but reading it out to him.

Her mother is afraid she's changed so much that in another forty years there will be no Rose Tyler left. To me, this is selfish. It is her mother and Mickey that don't want Rose to grow...and now she's stuck with them in a happy little earthbound cocoon.

And even the Doctor assumes that she will fall into her limited life...where in her words "Nothing ever happened, ever." But Rose doesn't assume that. She laughs at the very idea...that Mickey would get her pregnant...that she'd go back to the shop...even though Jackie says, "What's wrong with that?" The Doctor knows what's wrong with it and so does Rose.

I take Rose at her word when she tells the Doctor, "I made up my mind a long time ago and I'm never going to leave you." I don't think she came to that decision lightly or that it was just a childish wish...I think she was a woman who knew her own mind.

"He showed me a better way of living your life," she said. But she's the one who chose to live that life with him, knowing full well what it would cost her. Nope, I can't hold with the idea of her not being a fully developed person at the end of Doomsday.

Rae

To be fair...if he moved on after a few companions

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I might be able to live with that, too. As you say, a widow moves on, eventually. I would, in fact, fully imagine if the show runs another ten years...or even five years that Rose might become a distant memory. Though, I might still hope for a reunion...until she's forty.

I might check back in then and enjoy it. But just now...I'm all achey and yearning and such. And I don't see that loving Rose as his Maid Marion, honestly, would affect the show as the BBC conceives of it.

The show never had sex appeal...at least as far as I was concerned...until Tegan showed up...and even that was a sort of accidental chemistry. David, however, has chemistry with doorknobs...so...they could have trouble on their hands with him.

Rae
thinking he could live the slow life...just for Rose...I think she'd be in charge of it, myself.

Back one more time...sheesh...can I jabber or what?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

:bless: ;->

I think my problem is Rose's age. She was 18 when she met the Doctor and part of the problem is that it seemed that it never occured to her that she could be ANYTHING without the Doctor and that worries me for her sake.

I do agree that we see some of this in Rose. Most tellingly in the Satan Pit when she tells the Ood she used to feel like she had nothing else in life...a long time ago. I put a different spin on things. I think Rose would have lived a different life without the Doctor. She was on a particular path and she wasn't happy...and she felt she had nothing...he put her on a path where she was happy and fulfilled. In Doomsday we see her make Defender of the Earth her life choice. She doesn't need the Doctor to make it. She will do it on her own...and, in fact, she always has done it on her own.

I believe the reason 18 year olds can't make life decisions as well as they might later in life...is because they haven't the experience to know their own minds yet. Some 18 year olds DO have experience and can decide things. Rose got a lifetime of experience in a few short years, more than she would ever have had if she had never met the Doctor. It aged her, changed her...made her into a different person (one her mother barely recognizes)...but I think it would be wrong to think she didn't know what she wanted out of life by Doomsday.

There are things she could do to have more experience...get a job, live a life...buy a house with doors and carpets...but will those things fulfill her? If Sarah Jane couldn't go on...how likely is it that Rose would? Well, mightly likely I'd say...because Rose is being quite brave there...and she got her "goodbye." Though I doubt there would be anything or anyone she wouldn't throw over in a heartbeat to return to him...and, a mature person, is always going to weigh that in the mix as far as future relationships. In some ways...Mickey, who would go in with the clear understanding of what he's up against...would be the best choice. But I'd hate that for his sake...talk about clinging to the past.

Rae

Re: I agree, Kamm...it probably won't happen

[kammgirl.livejournal.com]

I think your ideas are very appealing because Rose was loved and was the first companion for a whole new generation of Who viewers. Both young and adult. BP was as large a part of the success of the new series as was CE and DT IMO. This is evidenced by her awards and praise throughout both seasons. She earned all the hype she recived and it has springboarded her into many other projects. People online are such a small piece of the pie. We forget that at times. Add us all up and our numbers hardly equal one ratings point. But I do believe those who are vehemently anti Rose will embrace Martha completely and have actually done so before she has even aired, so that will work in her favor. And I am also sure she will be a great companion earning a fanbase on her own merit.

I also agree with the jaded aspect of an audience. I have watched SciFi since I was a small child and my brothers tuned in to the original Star Trek. However, the shows I have loved over the years are not ones that change casts so frequently and as I am very much a character investment kind of fan, it is just not my cup of tea to have to get used to new people so quickly. I am currently reading the new adventure books and while they are not literary masterpieces, they are enjoyable and is a way to raed more adventuresw ith both Doctors and Rose. I would love a reunion or the Doctor finding a way back to Rose, and I guess that is all in the hands of the new regime.

Children in Need Concert

[(Anonymous)]

Hello :0)

I just wanted to say how much i love your stories:0) I've just listened to the Dr Who concert in Cardiff, it'sw a great concert with David Tennant as MC but the best bit i thought you might life (if you haven't already listened is at the end - forward to about 2 1/2 hrs if you don't want to listen to it all) they play two songs that are in the new series of Dr Who and it may just be me but i thin they are going to have the Dr say good bye to Rose:0) just thought you might like to listen - they also have Roses swan song. Bye!

[miladyhawke.livejournal.com]

Articulate and well thought-out as always, Rae. I really like reading your meta shipping (and tend to put it in my memories) as it always resonates with me, whether I believe a reunion's actually going to happen or not (there's certainly nothing wrong with the heart wanting what it wants! *g*).

Here's some speculation for you - you were saying that you'd like to see a reunion at the end of Tennant's run. I think that's 100% possible, and I really want that (although I'm not sure that TPTB will make it happen). But here's why I think it's very possible:

Well, there was a wee little bit of a rumor going around (from highly dubious 'insider' info) that S3 is one big arc setting up the return of the Timelords in S4. Supposedly the Face of Boe's message, those magic four words, plays a big part - those words are probably the recurring theme throughout S3, as Bad Wolf and Torchwood were with S1 and S2. So far, soo plausible, right? I don't know about the idea of the Timelords returning in S4, but I do 100% firmly believe that the Doctor will not be left as the last Timelord forever, as much as I love the angst of that and could happily deal with it.

So, return of the Timelords = regained ability to travel between universes. Ergo, I believe that it absolutely will be possible for him to go back for Rose at some point (but my big question is, will the series producers allow that? If Rusty's still around, I think there's a chance, but there's no telling once he's gone).

Coincidentally - and here's where it really gets interesting based on what you said - David said he knows how long he's going to stay. I'm guessing not more than 2-3 seasons, probably three. If he stays for three seasons, then that puts him through the end of S4, during which the Timelords have returned & it's again possible to travel between universes, so - David/Ten *could* end his tennure by being reunited with Rose.

It just all ties in so neatly: I believe the Timelords will return. And based on the Face of Boe's message and how TPTB are already pimping that, I think it will be soon, in S4 ('round about the time I think David will leave). And at that point, it will be possible to go back for Rose. I think the Doctor would too - let's hope the producers and writers let him ;)

I guess this all sounds crack!tastic, but it's fun speculating *g* And it all seems really plausible to me.

[webeh.livejournal.com]

I've been a bad Ten/Rose fan. As much as I love them, I'm also really looking forward to the new season. I want to see how the show will be different and how the Martha will turn out.

I've already decided that I'm not going to ship Martha with the Doctor. From the descriptions I read thus far, I think it would be better if the pair were more like brother and sister. Protective of each other, but not in an incestual way. It's possible to have a male and female main characters without shipping them. I think I've seen it done before with relative success.

Have you been watching Torchwood? Even though it isn't the best show, I enjoy watching all the snogging on the program. Jack kissed Gwen. Jack kissed some random girl. Jack totally did tongue when doing "CPR" on Ianto.

I've developed an obsession with the unhealthy ship between Gwen and Owen. It's going to become really messy really fast, but the actors have great chemistry onscreen. They sizzle in their scenes together.

[webeh.livejournal.com]

OMG, wouldn't it be amazing if RTD and Billie had to carry this major secret for the next year or so? A secret regarding Rose's return in season 4? I'd totally go for that.

Have Torchwood: alternate London, Torchwood: Cardiff, and Doctor Who all collide. Jack, Rose, and the Doctor reunite. Jack and Rose meets Martha. Jack and the Doctor meets Rose's Torchwood coworkers (and see Mickey/Jake again. Yay!). Rose and the Doctor meets Owen, Tosh, Ianto, and Gwen. Doctor and Rose goes to Gwen, "Hey, you look familiar." Gwen discovers her inherited supernatural powers of telling the future.

The Doctor and Rose shag. Jack shags Ianto. Martha shags Tosh. Gwen shags Owen. Mickey shags Jake. (I've decided that Mickey and Jake are lovers because they look hot together.) It'll be one big happy shagfest.

[webeh.livejournal.com]

Of course, I'm not a fan of that firing the arrow part to bury him...

And don't forget the smushing of Marion by a giant tree. I've got to tell you this, finding that out at ten was upsetting. Like how finding out that the mermaid dies in the Little Mermaid was upsetting.

[kitmarlowescot2.livejournal.com]

But that isn't Rose, or the Doctor rabist, Rose will mourn and then move on. That's why people love her so much because she is a strong character. The Doctor will see her again, but as with Sarah Jane, he will let go. That is the Dcotor he loves and mourns, and loves yet again.

Gee...I've been immortalized. ;->

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I'm not following spoilers. I'm just trying to work things out in my mind. What would keep me watching...for say...the next two seasons. I don't see myself going out beyond David Tennant's run as the Doctor. I'm just not as into the show as I was when I was in college.

But I think that if Boe is returning he will be telling him something that will link up to the return of the Time Lords, something along the lines of "You are not alone." I think those words could manifest in a number of ways. But eventually might lead to the Doctor discovering family or friends he didn't know he had. I think the Time Lords will be back in S4. I can't see the Time Lords forgiving him for wiping them out. But they probably will be understanding of his self-sacrifices, too, so I think that the exile idea is a viable one. A sort of punishment/reward.

When I do all of this speculating...I am imagining a very subtle sort of carrying of Rose in his heart. I don't see it being something that comes up very much. But I don't agree that he's the sort to simply move on to other loves...as someone said. I think of the Doctor as fairly constant...probably because I don't think he felt the same way about Rose as any other companion. And I see nothing wrong with him carrying her in his hearts as he goes on fighting the good fight. One day he should be allowed to rest...why not be allowed to return to her?

Rae

Re: Gee...I've been immortalized. ;->

[miladyhawke.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm thinking :)