Doctor Who: Vincent & The Doctor Spoilers

[rabid1st]

This was without a doubt the best episode of the Eleventh Doctor's run. This was primarily due to three things. First, the actor who played Van Gogh was extraordinary. Really one of the best guest spots we have ever had, comparible, in my mind, to Lindsey Duncan. And we might note this is what a good actor can do with standard material. Because the writing wasn't that stellar in this episode, yet the actor managed to squeeze out nuance and pathos from every scene. His weeping and his spitting rage were both fantastically effective.

Second, while there was a fascination with Amy that seemed quite mad, at least Vincent was indeed mad and so we could forgive him. And her annoying nature was kept in some semblence of check by the heavy subject matter. Well...beyond that moment when she ordered wine. And here I should point out a minor quibble that pretty well took me straight out of the story for a time. This is the first time we have failed to anyone notice when the companion is dressed so far out of period. There was no historically accurate attempt to run Amy off from the pub, no sneering at her forward nature and bare legs. It made the whole thing seem like pandering to the character again. As if Amy isn't a real person but some sort of mirage.

On the other hand, the third reason to love this episode is that mostly it was remarkably rich with historical detail. Perhaps that is why the unquestioned Amy stood out like a sore thumb on those cobbled streets. The streets were perfection as were Vincent's home and his behavior and the serving wenches and the funeral procession and the lighting and the magnificent sunflowers. Here, I saw something that I didn't see in the Agatha Christie story, homage done right. It wasn't just a series of visual puns. There was a great deal of artistic love in the presentation of this story. To the point where I cried along with Vincent when we were linked back to his art. And I thought who great it was that Doctor Who really could still move me.

Of course, then there was the Doctor. Sadly, his nine year old persona detracted from this story in a way that it might not have had we had a less accomplished actor playing Vincent. But side by side the performances were like night and day. There was poor old Matt trying to look like he was a wise traveler and failing miserably. And just as Amy stopped being so horridly inappropriate. I must ask if someone at the writer's table, perhaps the Moff, has Attention Deficit Disorder.

I can assume they were trying to be funny at times with their broad humor which is nothing more than having characters blurt out horribly inappropriate things. Nothing weighty or deep can happen without someone making a verbal gaffe equal to a fart noise with their armpit. This is what the writer's pass off as humor for Amy as well. She shouts "Oh, shut up" and we are supposed to find her charming and ballsy...but instead I just wonder why she's such a child. And here, we have the Doctor doing a similar sort of yelping and really being very secondary to the adult in the story.

More and more, of course, I hope that all of this is some sort of mistake and that Amy really is just a child of seven or eight somehow looped through the crack in her wall...and the Doctor is still in a regenerative cycle or something. But I really feel that this isn't part of the plot but is simply Moff's idea of the perfect woman--up for anything, not interested in marriage, not hampered by any real weight of emotion, sassy and leggy and childish...meeting the perfect man...someone who is a perpetual school boy. Amy and the Doctor reminded me rather forcibly of two children on a school trip in this one. I wish I could just ignore Eight, Nine and Ten and view this Doctor as the logical follow up to Six and Seven. That works for me. And Amy works when you think of her as following on the heels of Mel and Ace...but not so much following behind Donna and Rose.

I do have one other comment. Someone told me that Rory was "not forgotten" in this episode. Yet, as far as I could tell there were only three brief and easy to miss references to Rory. One when the Doctor mistakenly says his name, showing that HE didn't forget. Two when Vincent notices Amy is crying and sad...even though she is not. And I do hope that THIS is part of the plot in some way. That there is something to see which we and our characters are not seeing...that is...an alternative time line or something similar. We always do cry out for the season to be an illusion at this point though, so I am suspicious of that. However, Moff is big on illusion, so perhaps it is just that. The final mention of Rory isn't even obvious...but we could take Amy saying that she's not the marrying kind to be a reference to the loss from time and space of the man she loves. On the other hand, it could just refer to her scatter-brained childish nature. We don't know enough about Amy to be able to tell. And I might say that it is more of the same to have VINCENT tell us that Amy is sad. Show don't tell, Moff! That's all I've been saying all season.

Comments

[gwendolynflight.livejournal.com]

Really? Because I thought this was ridiculous. The guest star was great, but the ending was bullshit, and that guy who played Cameron in State of Play was wasted on a series of lame jokes. Wasted! And the whole episode was just ... okay, you come into this depressed man's life shortly before you know he's going to commit suicide, he has obvious abandonment issues, and you get him attached to you and immediately leave, thinking your interference has somehow saved him and just skipping off into the future without a care and just ... argh. I hate this about the show. If you really are a time traveler and you really could save someone, why shouldn't you? Except, oh, hey, it would be expensive to keep guest star around for a while. At least Moff did this better with the Girl in the Fireplace, with the Doctor trying to go back for her but failing. This was just ... blah.

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

Considering I thought Rory wasn't going to get a mention at all, I thought the references were pretty oblique. Much was made of the Doctor being genuinely nice to Amy for no reason that she could tell at the very beginning, which to be honest, I thought was the only quasi-nod the audience was going to get in regards to Rory's demise. There was Vincent seeing her pain and loss when she couldn't. There was the reference to her not being the marrying kind despite us knowing that she was engaged to Rory. And then there was the very in-your-face evoking of Rory by name. In a series where there hasn't been subtly (I'm looking at you, ZOMG!Anvilicious Crack of Doom) or authentic/earned character growth at all, I thought this episode, while far from perfect, still accomplished this in spades.

And wasn't Tony Curan magnificent? I swear, his guest turn is BAFTA-worthy.

Regarding the childish behaviour of Eleven/Pond, while I don't care for it, it does play into the whole Doctor as Peter Pan and Amy as Wendy (she was even in her nightie!) and the idea that she's going to grow up and leave Neverland, possibly to marry Rory, and live happily ever after. It's a worthy-ish fairytale idea, even if it's being told piss-poorly.

[astitchintime-9.livejournal.com]

"To the point where I cried along with Vincent"


You did, too? Glad it wasn't just me. And while I was misting up, I was thinking "This is bad. I don't want to be spending any more tears over this show." And I searched around inside myself for the old feelings of anger at the Doctor (well, Ten, at any rate) and the surge of resentment at being manipulated by the showrunner ... only... I didn't come up with any. And that's when I decided that what that actually meant was that this is good.

Oh, not van Gogh's accent (very distracting) or Eleven (pretty much in total) or Amy (though pretty to look at, I - like you - was surprised that no one commented on her clothes) or the monster (though I cried when it died by accident) or the story (which was weak) or the dialogue (which was clumsy) or the way that Continuity failed (when it came to pronouncing van Gogh's name consistently).

But Bill Nighy in the present and Tony Curran in the past were quite solid performances, given what they had to work with.

And I agree that it harkens back to Old School Who in many respects, esp. respected actors showcased in - and thereby elevating - mediocre stories.

This should have been set earlier in the season, as it was this year's Dickens, Queen Victoria, Shakespeare meeting. Agatha Christie was late in s4, too, but Donna was so funny - and we'd already been to Pompeii - that we could hold out. Such was not the case this year.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yes, but...are we really looking for any sort of responsible action from this Doctor? Honestly? He seems to have no sense of propriety at all. The whole point now seems to be that he and Amy are jaded space travelers who don't particularly care about anyone or anything but a good time. They both meddled up a storm with the Silurians and then didn't even bother to use any of his superior brain power. Amy is put in charge and is shown sitting there yawning and being bored by it all. There is no attempt to ground anything that happens in reality. Rory dies and is immediately removed from time and space so there is no need to mourn him.

Truthfully, I gave no thought whatsoever to the emotional realities in the episode. Though you are quite right, they were crap. As a matter of fact, when they ran the public service announcement at the end, I was all...SERIOUSLY? You expect that REALLY suicidal people will be moved to seek help by THAT? Well, maybe because Vincent was great and there was a moment there when I thought about all we lost when he died young. But they didn't give any real weight to his suicide...by having our show people truly feel it. The Doctor was particularly awkward when faced with the idea you bring up about abandonment. But not awkward like he felt anything, more like he didn't want to be reminded of bad things. They handwaved it away...giving it only immature attention...with Amy's bouncy childish glee about more paintings.

I had no hope at all that Vincent would not kill himself, but I would have loved for there to be more paintings. For the suicide to have happened much later than the dates we were originally told, and for the show to have truly explored the history so that children would take an interest.

This is what Doctor Who used to be about...way back in the beginning...a fun way to learn about real history mixed in with some sci-fi. But I did enjoy the obvious artistic zeal that the production department used on this episode. Someone really wanted to take us to the time period. Unlike in the Agatha Christie episode (which might have been accurate, but missed out on the spirit of Christie) this episode had the soul of an artist behind it. I only wish they had taken a bit more effort on the parrot creature. Still, it was mostly invisible...and that was only right as it would have distracted from the cobblestones.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I felt most effected not where I should by all rights be moved...when Vincent yells at the Doctor about abandonment. That part definitely rings true for me but Matt's horrid performance there...for whatever reason...left me feeling sorry for the fellow that played Vincent (I really do need to learn his name). Oh, you've told me...Tony Curran? LOL Anyway, I felt bad for him because there he was acting up a storm and there was nobody to work with him. I so wanted Rose in there with him...because she would have taken him in her arms and cast one of those reproachful looks at Ten or Nine and caused them some REAL sympathy. But as it was...wasted.

But later...when he's listening to the reason why he's the greatest artist that ever lived...he really made me feel that THIS was the reason that he painted so furiously in those few months before he died. He knew he was going to kill himself one day...he tells us he knows how it all ends...but for a few months he was able to hold the darkness at bay and make something beautiful out of his pain. I think that's amazing, just like the writer said through Bill Nighy. And here...for the first time since RTD left...I felt like an episode showed me what it was to see the world through a lense of beauty and pain...rather than simply telling me that it happens.

[gwendolynflight.livejournal.com]

This is my complaint about the season. And yes, I do still expect it. The show is breaking my heart. Fear Her came on earlier, and I hate that episode but it still made me so much happier than anything in the last year they've produced. ::sigh:: The set dressing was nice, sure, well-done, but even so I felt less present in that time than in the Shakespeare one - at least Martha's out of place-ness was acknowledged a bit, if then too-easily accepted. But I never got a sense of anyone other than Vincent. Which is fine, but it gives me little sense of time, not having a sense of other people. The cafe scene was good, should have been more of that and less of Matt waving a stick at nothing. ::headdesk::

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

I'm the only one on my flist who thought it was a bit boring... but then, it was maybe because I am not a Van Gogh fan (even if, you're right, the actor was fantastic!) and because i've got my exams in my mind... lol.
About Amy's clothes: Indeed you're right! No one said anthing about Amy's clothes. Remember in Tooth & claw Queen Victoria's reaction? So much fun! And then, it's not like this trip in time was an accident, they could have gave Karen clothes that suited the period.
As for Rory... knowing Moffat, really, I didn't excepted AT ALL any references.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

There is at least one person in these comments who agrees with you, but, no, I didn't find it boring. I found the monster lame and so I found the tension a bit silly...so I suppose I could have found it boring if I hadn't been a Vincent fan. I was a fan of both Van Gogh and, now of, Tony Curran, the actor who played him.

As for Rory, I felt that the reaction to his going missing was also very Old School. Like when Adric died so spectacularly in Earthshock, in the next episode the Doctor speaks to the visible saddened Tegan and Nyssa and says, "You miss Adric. Me, as well, but he wouldn't want us to grieve unnecessarily"...or something to that extent. And there you go...end of the grieving process. This was even slighter than that. Actually, there was a more apparently note of the same type when Five lost Tegan who he was obviously quite fond of...btw...she too came back to him unexpectedly...as if by fate...but he didn't have any sort of weird thing happen to him like Ten did with Donna. But anyway...after Tegan left Turlough notices the Doctor moping and says, "You miss Tegan?" And the Doctor says, "We were together a long time." He is also seen to be sad and goes off alone to wander...but soon he is back having adventures again. I do give Peter Davison some credit for selling the next episode Caves of Androzani as a Tegan Loss as well as Regeneration episode...though he glossed it a bit and said, "He's lost everyone and he's not about to lose anyone else." Perhaps this is the core of RTD's take on the Doctor, certainly it was pretty close to his most vulnerable Old School time.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Sorry, my previous response does not appear to be in English. My Fibro-brain must be very fuddled just now. Hope you can make some understanding from it.

GAH!

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

That's all right, I understood ;D
And yes, it feels quite Old!school. But didn't Moffat said he wanted his Who to be more like the old series?
And that's maybe what's missing from Moffat!Who: the emotional side. But then... would Matt be able to give us the anger or the pain Christopher & David did?
As far as I am concerned, I fond quite ridiculous the scene where Eleven start screaming and hitting at the dalek... I felt nothing... I was more like "Huh? Really?" than "OMG! His worst nemesis".

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yes! That was quite ridiculous. I haven't believed Matt emotionally in many of the scenes.

And, no! Technically there isn't too much wrong with going back to the old series...except that the modern audience is much more jaded and even the old school audience dwindled down to we few intrepid Whovians at the end. We must remember that back in the day when Who was on Brits had very few choices for alternative programming. It was pretty much pre-CGI and the acting standards were quite a bit lower as far as kid's shows were concerned.

Also, as an old school fan...I wasn't very happy to hear about Rose and the idea of a Doctor/Companion romance. That was because I hadn't experienced it. But unlike some of my more conservative Old School brethren, I was able to open up my mind to new possibilities. Unfortunately, once you open your mind it is very hard to close it up again and pretend that mediocrity is acceptable. As I said, if we had gone straight from Seven and Ace to Eleven and Amy...I would probably be delighted with the new team. But that's not what happened. I've gotten used to having more out of Doctor Who and I think about 5 million other people have too.

In the end it doesn't so much matter if I think the show is failing, as the BBC and Moff are not stopping by to read my views. But I said we would be looking at 5 million soon...and 4 million by this time next season. It will be interesting to see what sort of numbers come down next Christmas.

Rae

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

Okay, the annoying first. Yes, once again, Amy is parading about in completely inappropriate and period-inaccurate clothes and nobody bats an eye. Ridiculous.

Beyond that, I absolutely adored this episode. Which makes me very happy, given how disappointed I've been in the season so far. But it was probably a given that I would love it, as the subject matters hits me in a very personal emotional way.

Tony Curran was...I don't even think I can say how amazing he was. Not only does he look *eerily* like Van Gogh, but he *nailed* the snarled emotions of someone with major depression/bipolar disorder. I cried from Vincent's trip to the museum to the end. It's a lovely idea he got the chance to know that his work survived and is beloved, but I knew it wouldn't change his end.

And despite knowing that it's deliberate manipulation, Bill Nighy's bit about Van Gogh turning his pain into beauty...waterworks. Oh yeah.

Anyway...I was rather amused by the explanation for Tony's Scottish accent. But honestly, I just totally didn't notice it after that moment.

The part I was the least thrilled about is the MOTW plot, since the ending just kind of petered out. And it was a depressing end, too! As if things weren't bad enough, we kill the monster and it turns out to just be blind and frightened. Geez.

As for Rory...yeah, I think they'll be going back to that at the end of the season. Hopefully he'll meet a better end than our MOTW. :P

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yes, I also figure we will see Rory again. My stating that they didn't give him much of a send off was simply once again stating the truth of this show now. It isn't dealing with any sort of emotional depth. Even the dealing with Bipolar and suicide was not in a deep fashion. Just imagine how rich and nuanced this subject matter would have been with RTD, Tennant and Piper there. WOW! But Tony did a great job of wrenching my heartstrings on his own.

The MOTW part was simply Doctor Who window dressing in this one. There must be a monster...but it wasn't very interesting. And the lonely alien idea is pretty much pointless when the Doctor has lost his ability to convey emotion. It's not like we are taking much notice of the fearful, blind creature...and if anything...I thought he was more a foil for Vincent...who could see too much.

Imagine if Tony Curran was the Doctor. Wow! Again! :grin: Oddly, I never even noticed his accent. He sucked me into his performance within a few moments of appearing on screen. I just can't help thinking what a masterpiece this episode would have been with Tennant and Piper and Euros directing. Though I only had trouble with the direction when the Doctor was doing his silly monster fighting. I honestly wish they'd made another choice there.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Matt waving a stick at nothing continues to rankle me even today. I just commented on it to someone else. That was just a very poor choice from Matt or the director. This is the problem with the series. Over and over again, they are hitting the wrong notes. I compare Matt to a nine year old and Amy to a Muppet. But what I'm saying at the core of it all is that this series rings false on many levels. I don't buy Amy as a real woman. I don't buy Matt as a wise, ancient and compassionate alien teacher. I don't find the so called humor funny nor do I find the pathos very honest. People often remark that bad episodes are like bad fanfiction...but it seems to me that is where the show has gone. Because for me, bad writing is writing that is clearly working an agenda...that has cardboard characters who an audience can't possibly relate to in any deeper or more meaningful way. Characters who do whatever the author demands of them without any internal motivation and behave differently from scene to scene, with no explanation of why they've changed their attitude.

Rae

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

Oh man...that would have been one hell of an episode with DT and BP! And Tony Curran would make an AWESOME Doctor - he'd finally get to be ginger! LOL

I can see why they didn't go into more depth about Vincent's mental illness. The Moff is definitely aiming his show's at kids, not adults. The writer was pretty cool about it. In the Confidential he said that it was pretty deep stuff to tackle, but given that one in four people will suffer from depression at some point in their life, introducing it to kids (even as obscurely as they did) was a good idea. Help them to be more understanding of people with mental illness. I liked that.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't think they should necessarily give us any more from Curran on the mental illness front. But we get some very mixed messages here from Matt and Karen, because they don't seem to take it seriously.

Maybe if the ratings keep dropping Curran will get his shot. Though he might have to explain about looking like Vincent Van Gogh! :wink:

Does Tony Curran really have that beard? I seriously don't think I've seen him before...though I might have and just don't recognize him because he's such a fine actor.

Rae

[catsfiction.livejournal.com]

Narratively, RTD's Who is like a movie. It poses a very specific emotional problem which is at the heart of the whole story, no matter how distracting the big effects and monsters may be. And it should have sent us out emotionally satisfied, which it clearly did not. The reason for that, apart from RTD's obsession with unrequited love, was that all the commercial pressure was on to sell it as an ongoing franchise. A lot of jobs in Wales depend on it. It's huge, it's become a monster in its own right.

The majority of popular TV shows go on several seasons too long. I do believe DW can go on indefinitely but it's already peaked in popularity and it would be a much better artistic decision to let it rest for a while. People would be more receptive to a return to Old School values if they could feel that the RTD years had been rounded off in the right way - then we could walk out of the cinema on a high and recognise RTD's vision, in time, as a digression.

What I predict is that we'll get another two or three seasons but the show itself will become secondary to an increasingly cynical merchandising campaign. The kids I work with in school never mention Eleven - he means nothing to them, so far as I can see. To them the Doctor is Ten - a remarkable achievement given the usual attention span of a modern seven year-old. They still take out books about Ten. They don't protest that he's not the Doctor any more. And after Fires of Pompeii a lot of them asked for books about Pompeii. I loved VATD, but none of them have asked for books about Van Gogh.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

The reason for that, apart from RTD's obsession with unrequited love, was that all the commercial pressure was on to sell it as an ongoing franchise. A lot of jobs in Wales depend on it. It's huge, it's become a monster in its own right.

But, of course, as I've said, this is simply lack of imagination. There is no reason at all that the Doctor couldn't leave to another universe for a time and then return as a much older, wiser man...and regenerate. There were any number of simple ways to do that prior to Journey's End. I think it was far more RTD's failing than anything logistic about the storyline. If there was logistical problems then I would imagine they were of the "He can't REALLY take a sexual interest in a companion" variety.

. People would be more receptive to a return to Old School values if they could feel that the RTD years had been rounded off in the right way - then we could walk out of the cinema on a high and recognise RTD's vision, in time, as a digression.

Again, this is what I meant, as I'm sure you know, by saying that mishandling Rose/Ten is what made this drop so steep. I think if there had been a logical reason for the emotional reservation...for the sharp change in character development, then viewers would have been more accepting. That is they could say, "Well...he's been to another universe, spent time away from us...so he's changed more than his face and form...let's give this guy a try." There would be no expectations from him and Moff and Matt would have been freed of that RTD yolk they now toil under.

Two more seasons is what I figure, but British stick-to-itivness could keep it around for three. The next series is already granted. And it all depends on how it comes back from the break at the end of this season. I feel that even though the story will be interesting, the lack of character development will wear on people if there is a long break. I am really looking toward the Christmas numbers. Though I still have some hope for a satisfactory narrative outcome at the finale.

And how very interesting that the kids are not talking about Eleven. I am not surprised, because he's not very compelling. And truthfully, kids won't be very impressed by the things that Moff does well...lack of loop holes in the arc and sexual innuendo. I actually think that only old school adults are that impressed with Moff. And I think that's because RTD, for all of his flaws, really loved the show like a child loves it. His love and David's showed in the final product. And we all ate that up with a spoon. And THAT will be what the kids of today remember fondly in 20 years time. One of them will want to bring the romantic (and here I mean romantic in the chivalric sense) Doctor back to our screens.

Rae