The Valeyard...again!

[rabid1st]

So, I was wandering around LJ recently and I stumbled across someone patiently explaining how the Valeyard could have nothing whatsoever to do with the current situation with Ten.

They did seem to be Old School and well aware of what the Valeyard was and they were rather pedantic about the Laws of Time...how nothing can change the Doctor's history as we know it...and so the Valeyard is yet to come, it seems. Touching once again on who or what the Valeyard was...he is/was a distillation of the Doctor's dark side, his ambition and jealousy and wicked intent. And he appeared between the pentultimate and final regenerations, between Doctor Twelve and Doctor Thirteen.

There is no real mention of how such a being could exist, as far as I know. I am sure someone covered it in the Book Canon, but The Trial of a Time Lord seemed to be vague as I recall. But one assumes it is rather like the Watcher figure that appeared between Doctor Four and Doctor Five. This Watcher figure did nothing but lurk and frighten people. He seemed to be some form of energy or, perhaps an early warning system for upcoming regeneration. It could be that Ten is currently expecting to see his own Watcher...knocking him up...as it were. The Watcher could be some sort of death portent and that is what Ten meant by "I think I know what that means."

But back to the idea of the Valeyard. I've seen people kicking around the idea that Blue Ten is the Valeyard, maybe because he can't regenerate. And one assumes that those people believe that evil intent was somehow carried along with the regenerative energy into the handy spare hand. Or they think that Donna gave up some evil energy. Or they think just being trapped with Rose will bring on some frustrations as death approaches. But really...the hand is the NEXT regeneration...Eleven. He's been shunted aside so that Ten could...well...not die. All Ten keeps is enough energy to heal himself. The current TEN is what exists between regenerations...he's not really Ten...nor Eleven. He is in fact a distillation of whatever components he wanted to keep of his old self.

Oh, but then...even if Brown is a distillation, he can't be the Valeyard. Because...isn't that a violation of the laws of Time and Space? Well, no! Because technically he wouldn't be The Valeyard. He'd be the way we AVOID the Valeyard. Dalek Ca'an (and to a certain extent Bad Wolf Rose) changed the very fabric of Time and Space, because they both had the power to do that. Dalek Ca'an tells us that everything that happens in JE would have happened anyway. All he did was speed up the process. So, at some point Donna and the Doctor would be merged...or the Doctor would merge with someone else. We could infer that had Rose and Donna and Jack not been part of the Doctor's life, had he gone forward alone...or had Rose not done the impossible and come back for him by merging with the Time Vortex...thereby setting Dalek Ca'an's quest in motion...then the Valeyard would have appeared as he was supposed to appear. As he has already done in the history of the show...also...the Doctor would probably have died after 13 regenerations...something that is now very unlikely.

What I'm saying is the very nature of the Doctor's existance could have been altered by this huge meddling in time and space by Rose and Dalek Ca'an. Blue Ten tells us that he "echoed back" and Donna could hear his heartbeat. And Rose tells us that Donna is very important, because all of the strands of time seem to run through her. And now, we begin to see WHY that is. Way back when, I questioned that all of that lowering of the dimensional walls and metacrisis business was simply a way to get Rose an agreeable husband. THAT seems like a waste of a cracking great concept. And now we see Brown has gone bonkers. It seems likely to me that what has happened is all of the passions of the Doctor have been distilled into Brown...his lust for...exploration, adventure, excitement, human women, etc. He's not the Valeyard exactly...because Rose and Dalek Ca'an conducted a Time/Space intervention to stop him from destroying time itself. I think that's what has yet to play out...the temptation to fix the universe that is at the core of the Doctor's character.

But then...that would mean...that RTD truly is brilliant and has been planning his final story since S2 at the very least. Do we believe he's that good? Or is he just going to cobble something together and call it a pony? We will see.

Comments

[nightbeast.livejournal.com]

RTD interview. He says

I don’t like higher authorities, which is why I got rid of the Time Lords.

http://www.sfx.co.uk/page/sfx?entry=exclusive_more_wit_and_wisdom

I'm pretty sure the Valeyard was mentioned in the Humperdinck letter.

[asahifirsa.livejournal.com]

I've been reading the Writer's Tale over the past week (thanks to you I've finally picked it up). At the point where I am it's difficult to think that he actually planned it out that early. I think what he did is leave himself some plot devices that he can then pick up and use when he does come up with a plan. I'm sure one could put together quite a few very different endings which would make just as much sense as the once he's going to use.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

You could be right. RTD certainly does simply leave his tools, as he puts it, lying about for later use. But I do think he is also lying quite a bit about how much of the plot he had worked out by the end of S3. The reason I think that is some of the things he said way back then...and the fact that he has 700 more pages to add to The Writer's Tale. I do think there were times when he was stumped or working under such pressure that he didn't have a clear idea of where he was going. And I do believe that the idea he had for the end...went awry when he was asked to do the four specials.

One way to sort of know that he WAS aware of things is who he had to talk to...to make certain people available. He spoke to Catherine Tate at the wrap party for S4 and asked her to come back for THIS Christmas. So, he was ready with this game then. Also, he spoke to Billie when she told him she was leaving...which was in S1...and she agreed to return for S4 (and I think...actually...for David's last episode). Yes, he does pretend that if they couldn't get Billie back they would do something else...but we know that he made arrangements very early on to have Billie.

[shield-wolf.livejournal.com]

Would you consider a fairly general quote from DT on the cover of DWM #416 too spoilery? I suspect that it does tie in to some of what is already being discussed here, but I'd like to make sure you aren't avoiding such things before I go plunking it into this thread.

[shield-wolf.livejournal.com]

Remember also that RTD has stated that the Master wasn't returning (before S3), we wouldn't be seeing Davros, Rose would never be coming back (after S2), etc. In short, it seems that very few of his claims about this show can be trusted at face value.

[keswindhover.livejournal.com]

If its cobbled together at the last moment it will look more like a camel than a pony.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Fairly general quotes are okay...as are public transmissions of clips for say...advertising purposes. And photos of same. But if someone was at the filming and "knows" inside information and can say..."This is what ACTUALLY happens." Then I don't want to hear that.

RTD and I think very much alike when it comes to the structure of storytelling, so direct quotes from him usually tell me a bit more about the plot than they tell the average viewer, it seems. Which is not to say I can guess what he's going to do...but often he and I feel the same way about structure...so my view on Rose was his view on Rose...my view on Mickey was his view on Mickey...I hope we have the same views on the Doctor...but I'm not sure, yet...and don't want to be spoiled.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

In his shoes...I would definitely lie to us. So, I just expect him to lie about the big things. If you go all the way back to the day after JE...or maybe it was two days after...I did the same thing I did just after Doomsday...I sat down and worked out what I would do and figured that we were being hoodwinked...or as I put it...Humperdincked. I fully expected Rose back both times. And she's back both times.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

You know, on the Master front he has already admitted the lie, because he said that he did have the ring picked up for just the reason that will become apparent. And I thought he was lying about that all the time...but I REALLY though he was lying once I saw a metacrisis.

And that whole...we've created this unique being in the form of Ten 2 and we thought...hey, let's do a little more with him. I think that IS what they thought...but I really doubt they meant they would only tuck him away in a parallel universe. Of course, I've been wrong before...I was very wrong about Children of Earth...so...

[shield-wolf.livejournal.com]

Okay then, the DT quote is as follows:

"It's a tale of the gods, really, but gods who are fallible..."

So we can make of that what we will, I suppose.

[catsfiction.livejournal.com]

There's a lot about old age in the upcoming two-parter. Not only do we get Wilf, but also there's a whole bunch of older folk that he's motivated to look out for the Doctor. A delicious scene with them has come up on YouTube. And I do find that interesting, and a little encouraging. We're such a youth-worshipping culture.

What lengths would a Time Lord be prepared to go to in order to retain his Time Lord identity? Once you see the state that the Master has been reduced to, you have to wonder. Maybe instead of a grand return of the Time Lords we'll see a renunciation of them. I think it's very likely that the option of their return will be on offer, but I rather hope that hanging out with Wilf for a while will remind the Doctor how much humanity has to offer.

An interesting comment from RTD in the latest Mag - he was very, very clear that the Doctor has not gone over to the Dark Side. That was a brief aberration, and he was saved by Adelaide's sacrifice bringing him back to his senses. I'm very relieved by that. Not only because I don't think Dark Doctor's the way to go just before Christmas - and besides, if he's that far gone he's just going to grab whatever he wants and to hell with the consequences. But also, it's put human courage and sacrifice back at the centre of the DW mythos. At best, that could prepare the ground for Bad Wolf to return. At the very least, I'd rather end on that note than on the Return of the Big Scary Time Lords. I want Ten to learn something from all this, preferably a healthy respect for humanity.

This is my hope!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Even if we don't get the full glory of the pony...this would be so much better than socks.

Maybe instead of a grand return of the Time Lords we'll see a renunciation of them. I think it's very likely that the option of their return will be on offer, but I rather hope that hanging out with Wilf for a while will remind the Doctor how much humanity has to offer.

Yes, I do think that Ten is not the Valeyard. Dark Doctor is only there to show people that he can go this way...probably would if not for human intervention in his life. I want to believe he is the alternative to the Valeyard. That Rose and Dalek Ca'an saw that he shouldn't be on his own...when they could see everything...and they both took steps to insure this would never happen.

All of this may be difficult for a lot of run of the mill fans to understand, but I believe RTD would understand completely, could I talk it over with him. And maybe he understands without anyone talking to him at all. I firmly believe that RTD is going to reaffirm that Humanity is important to the Doctor. I also hope that he gets rid of the RIGHT version of Ten by sending him to Rose at the end.

I did see the old folks clip and I really, REALLY wish that I hadn't, because once again RTD has done exactly what I envisioned doing as soon as I heard that June was going to be Wilf's girlfriend...well...actually...when I heard about Adelaide, too. One of the things that gets said CONSTANTLY in the fandom...as was even said in the show...by the Doctor...was that growing old was horrible. It is pretty much stated that the Doctor can't deal with old people...and old people can't keep up with him. So...if Rose grows old...she's no use to him anymore. He can't sit by and watch her wither and die.

And I thought...now there is an attitude of a very small child. Because Bernard Cribbins is quite old...and quite spry and quick witted...and surely the Doctor would take good care of Rose from a nutrition standpoint...making sure she avoided antioxidants...and we already know via Martha on Torchwood...that the TARDIS has changed her immune system. And chasing after aliens, or running from them, keeps you fit. The only this hazardous to Rose's life is her job at Torchwood...and the Doctor could certainly extend her lifespan if he was there with her.

Yes, absolutely, we should reject the Time Lord way...and embrace humanity as the solution to the Doctor's lonliness. And I absolutely believe that is what RTD intends to do. I will be seriously disappointed in him if he simply brings the Time Lords back...unless they come as an afterthough and are rejected. But to make things completely festive, we should send the right Doctor to Rose...the one who should be going...Ten...not Eleven, who is currently trapped in that human body.

And again we are in agreement

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

An interesting comment from RTD in the latest Mag - he was very, very clear that the Doctor has not gone over to the Dark Side. That was a brief aberration, and he was saved by Adelaide's sacrifice bringing him back to his senses. I'm very relieved by that. Not only because I don't think Dark Doctor's the way to go just before Christmas - and besides, if he's that far gone he's just going to grab whatever he wants and to hell with the consequences. But also, it's put human courage and sacrifice back at the centre of the DW mythos.

The only thing is if Children in Need is canon than RTD is not QUITE telling us the truth about Adelaide. But I think that he is for all intents and purposes. I don't think that TEN is evil, just misguided. I don't think that the passions in him are so far gone as to constitute DARK DOCTOR...because then he would be beyond Rose's reach as well. I don't think he's gone beyond what we saw...starting at River Song and going forward through Rose and Donna to Christina and finally Adelaide.

At this point the Doctor still is passionate about good things. He wants to save the people he loves. He wants to have a good time and enjoy his travels. Though I think, like an addict, he's trying more to sell himself on the wonderful time he's having than anybody else. He still has some boundaries...really...almost the same ones he was born with...we must remember he's a No Second Chances sort of man. Which would indicate he's a man of a darkly decisive nature. And sure enough...he applies that dark decisiveness to himself and his loved ones, too. No being talked out of his "saving" them. He runs over Rose's protests, and Donna's, just as surely as he does Adelaide's.

The only difference in Donna and Rose is that he could tell himself that he wasn't breaking the laws of time, he was upholding them. Two partial versions of him couldn't be allowed to roam the universe. He had to lock them away and Rose had to help him. And if he was unhappy about Rose, he could imagine her living the life he wanted to live. He had that same solace with Donna...she too had a "normal" life. He was doing the right thing while protecting himself from pain. With Adelaide, he didn't have that comfortable lie to hide behind and he had to put his own selfish desire to save her ahead of the laws of time.

I believe this is the crack in him that is acceptable. I was appalled to see that many people do not get that he shouldn't have saved Adelaide. Even Julie didn't quite understand the magnitude of what that could lead to if it went unchecked. But I do believe RTD has set up this idea for some time in the back of his mind...that he would show us what happens if the Doctor isn't with people. My only worry at this point...is sort of soothed by the old people scenes...because I think to accept a slow aging process of death...the Doctor (and all of the little children watching) need to see that growning old isn't a nightmare and all old people aren't just sitting around in their bathrobes and slippers waiting to die. Many people are vital and nimble for most of their life and only decline for a year or two...or don't decline at all just pop off one day. I see no reason at all why Rose Tyler couldn't be one of those people, pinching his ass like Minnie the Menace when she's 85.