RTD, The Doctor and Godhood

[rabid1st]

There are no spoilers in this post.

I was simply fact checking to see if RTD was an atheist and found some funny stuff out there.

RTD is an atheist...and proud of it, he says, claiming the BBC will just have to get used to it.

He didn't define his particular spin on atheism in the articles I read...so I'm going with the broad definition of...someone who doesn't believe in deities.

A blog post from some time ago from The Freethinker

http://www.freethinker.co.uk/2007/09/14/gay-atheist-dr-who-writer-sparks-religious-discussion/

And such a lovely bit from The Christian Scribbler from 7/08/08...

What I see, with Doctor Who as an example, is the fact that if one doesn’t believe in God, one will try to find a way to fill that gap…and what one imagines, or writes, or experiences, will usually be similar in nature to the Truth, it resembles the Truth, but isn’t actually “it.”

Read the whole thing here...but watch for POSSIBLE SPOILERS

http://christianscribbler.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/doctor-who-atheism-and-god/

So...again...I ask you...without getting into the right and wrong of it...or even if someone can have religious themes be very important in their creative lives and work regardless (or precisely because) of what they believe (or in this case DO NOT BELIEVE) in...when it comes to deifying the Doctor, by which I mean...giving him the power to decide how a particular life goes...if someone lives or dies...good, bad...okay for now because as far as we know he knows what he's doing?

What Would Isaac Asimov do?

Rae
oh, and before anyone gets too worked up defining terms or taking religious or non-religious stands and starting kerfuffles...please remember most of you do not know my personal stand on God...let's stick to the Questions...is the Doctor the Messiah figure...is it likely RTD is saying that's okay?

Comments

[webeh.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that I got lost in that third-last paragraph of yours. (Blame me and my short attention span.) So, I don't really know what you're asking there.

What I do know is that I'm not particularly fond of the god references made in the show. Not because I'm offended by them, but rather I don't think RTD does a particularly good job of portraying them. Everything we've seen thus far, it either comes across a bit Tinkerbell-ish or plain cheesy. I think the problem is that the show's too blunt with their comparisons of the Doctor with a god.

is the Doctor the Messiah figure

This might get me into trouble, but I think not really. This just might be my interpretation, but what I usually see is the Doctor actively trying to cast himself in the role of a Messiah. (The same way he constantly tries to make himself a martyr.) I don't think he's fully achieved it, but he's definitely trying. Basically, when we see comparisons of the Doctor to a god, what we're really seeing is his ego/vanity working in overdrive. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just one of his character flaws.

[(Anonymous)]

You might want to take a look at this.
The who universise's gods are the guardians?
Text seach the page for Six-Fold God.
http://www.geocities.com/willbswift/docwho2.html

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link Oh, Anonymous One!

I will look at it soon.

Will I laugh in a carefree manner?

:grin:

Rae

[(Anonymous)]

I hope so and I want a pony to for christmas.

[bubonicplague.livejournal.com]

AHA! See, Rusty loses it at the same point Asimov tanks, with the glorification of humanity as some sort of hive-entity.

[frodolass.livejournal.com]

That sounds about right.

[bubonicplague.livejournal.com]

W00t for the people who thought he turned to crap representing!

This made me feel better

[(Anonymous)]

You have to watch this video. It touched me so much.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MC8YM4puwHQ
Beautiful theme and extremely well done. Take a peek! :o)

[amybtvsfreak.livejournal.com]

To some degree, I believe that the Doctor is RTD's interpretation of what God is to him. Joss had a similar way of dealing with his SkyBully issues within Buffy too.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yeah...I think you are right. So, socks at Christmas. Or to put it another way...we ARE all better off on our own than traveling with this man. And so...from now until someone else takes over...we should avoid the show if we mean to think that there is more to life than this.

I did remember that Unicorn & Wasp episode very clearly and, of course, I related it to what has happened here. And I just spoke to someone else who said they felt 10 has always been a complete bastard...something I never felt until The Unicorn & The Wasp...not at that point but when Donna was falling under his "spell of love" again...saying that now that she'd met him and was going to be with him...her life was special.

This does fit an atheist viewpoint that our daily lives are special and we need nothing beyond them...and that all "God" is good for is lighting the spark in us. He can make us into weapons if we let him or he can inspire us to do great things...but he can never really be with us in any meaningful way because all that he offers is illusionary.

And I get that...Socks for Christmas. We get what's best for us...not what lifts us up and transforms us. And some people find that comforting...and more than that...they find that liberating...because you can say...as you have...that we don't know what will happen to anybody and that's the beauty of it.

I'm saying...Joss Whedon is writing comic books and the people who used to love his work...are not reading them and say things like "I will never watch another thing that man writes." I'm not talking about just the disappointed shippers...I'm talking about people who in the end...felt robbed of all the joy in life because of his worldview. Part of the joy of life...is that people can be special...it is the hope of the pony.

Rae

[rjrog77.livejournal.com]

And I just spoke to someone else who said they felt 10 has always been a complete bastard...

I’d agree, but with the one caveat that (pre-4X13, at any rate) Rose was the one person that he was not a complete bastard too – 2X04 notwithstanding.

As for the Doctor as Messiah? Well that depends on a lot of things. If you’re familiar with Arthurian myth at all, which character in that would you think matched most closely with the Doctor?

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I am very familiar...my mother was a huge fan of the original Mort d'Arthur...but...I can't quite pair the Doctor up with anyone more than any other...really...(suddenly I want to try...but you can just tell me).

Because...I have moved on from this point in my grieving...beyond the Humperdinck into new understanding...or complete denial...but please share your views with me on Arthur. Arthur being a mix of Christian views with old world views...I wouldn't be surprised to have parallels.

It is like people saying there are parallels to LotR...well...again...lots of Christian symbolism there.

I wouldn't mind sending 10 away to a crystal cave for about 2000 years though. ;->

Rae

[rjrog77.livejournal.com]

Y’see, the way I see it there are two parallels to the “Matter of Britain” here; three, if you include the idea that the Doctor is actually also Merlin (in which case I am tempted to say that Rose is his Nimuë, but I digress).

First, there’s the ‘Ill-Made Knight’, Lancelot du Lac, who wants something so badly (Rose) that he’ll do almost anything to get it whilst at the same time being the King’s (the Universe) best Knight he has to go out and do the “right not might” thing. Then of course when he finally gets his heart’s desire he feels so guilty about it, because he’s betrayed his King to get it, that eventually that guilt leads him to give it up. Without getting into spoilery territory, I think you’ll understand who and what I’m referring to there. The Doctor is very very like Lancelot in many ways, not least because an Ill-Made Knight is precisely the kind of Knight that will destroy his own people. *sighs*

(I’m basing most of these theories on The Once and Future King by T. H. White and The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley, by the way; I’ve a copy of Malory but I’ve never read it.)

The second parallel is far more obvious and I’m surprised that I’ve not seen it more widely used as metaphor: the Doctor shows clear parallels with Arthur himself.

King who was, King who shall be.

For a long time, certainly since I was doing my ‘A’-Levels (so we’re looking 14 years or more now), I’ve been pretty much convinced that the legend of Arthur is essentially a tale of the Christianisation of England. Which with the ‘Lonely God’ motif surrounding the Doctor is quite telling. King who was, and who shall be: the Doctor says in New Earth that he’s “the Doctor. And if you don't like it... if you want to take it to a higher authority, then there isn't one. It stops with me.” The King is the highest authority in the land – and this particular King (Arthur/the Doctor) can change his face; they are both born again (Arthur literally, the Doctor through regeneration).

And of course the Gospel message of the Christ that “will come again to judge the quick and the dead” is implicit in the ‘once’ and ‘future’ parts of that title.

And RTD is remarkably keen on the Messiah angle.

Thoughts?

[(Anonymous)]

Just dropping by to say that now that Midnight has aired here in the US, I wrote up a review due to some of the religious themes I touched on in my previous blog post, and I also noticed some of the issues with the Doctor (an indirectly RTD) that you brought up as well.

http://christianscribbler.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/doctor-who-midnight-review/

Kliska