Final Finale Speculation...DW S4, episode 13

[rabid1st]

So...I've been tossing out theories left, right and crossways all season long. Where do I think the truth lies...?

The HAND will take on the regenerative energy...and become the Doctor's twin...so we will have two Doctors...both equally valid...one of them didn't spend the last three years with us and love and lose Rose though and the other did. The one that loves Rose so much...gets to go live the ordinary life while the HAND temps for him.

Donna is the center of the planetary machine Davros is making. I think it involves a recreation of the universe around...probably Davros. But we see the planets also align around the Doctor...so they can align around him and make a different universe. Donna will step into his place...DoctorDonna...and the universe will realign around her. After that, there might still be a Donna in her universe...but she will not go with the Doctor.

I do like the idea that the TARDIS is the heart of the universe and Donna is a hidden TARDIS. And I also like the idea that Donna is the first human Time Lady. Actually, if I was writing the series...I would have Rose step forward to take the regenerative energy from the regenerating Doctor...and then have Donna get it while trying to save Rose. So, yeah, I would have Donna Noble become the first noble lady from our species...the first human Time Lord.

No matter how we slice it, I don't think Ten is regenerating...I think he is going to split instead so there is someone to do his job while he goes home to Rose.

And now that I have fearlessly predicted this...something else will happen that I haven't even covered here. This is how RTD is. He always gives me the slip at the end. But he better give me my happy with Rose, too, or I will want to biff him in the back of the head with a virtual brick. Because the only thing I am seriously invested in...theory-wise...is that Ten must go to Rose and live a happy, ordinary life for a bit. We all deserve that much for all the suffering and gnashing of teeth we've done for the past four years.



Rae

Comments

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

"But he better give me my happy with Rose, too...or I will want to biff him in the back of the head."

I SO agree!

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...with a virtual brick.

I had to add that part, as I don't want to be called in to give evidence if this all goes horribly wrong in service to the "gotcha" mentality of unexpected storytelling twists.

Rae

[princessblue791.livejournal.com]

I think I'd knee Rusty in the balls. Then I'd send a troop of very angry monkeys to him.We all know what monkeys do when they're angry.
I am sick of the whole tragic love story thing with Rusty. Owen and Tosh, Jack and the guy he stole the name from, then you had the whole Doomsday thing.It gets old. Plus the Doctor doesn't need anything else to be emo about.

[grbggrl.livejournal.com]

This is how RTD is...he always gives me the slip at the end. But he better give me my happy with Rose, too...or I will want to biff him in the back of the head.

I'm gonna be in Manchester later this year. There will be pitchforks outside of RTD's home if he doesn't give us at least something hopeful

[fidesangelus.livejournal.com]

Its not that I'm not reading and appreciating all your brilliant theories. Its just that I'm too terrified to make a statement and am currently curled up in a ball, rocking back and forth, awaiting Sat. ;)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

:gently puts a blankie over you:

I do know what you mean. As I was writing this to post, I thought, oh, don't even say anything...don't move...don't let them hear you breathing...or you will jinx it. But you know...either he's done us all proud or he hasn't. I say...stand up and blink into the light of a new dawn little Rose-shipper. :grin:

Rae

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

But what will happen to the TARDIS, I wonder?

I love your idea that one of the Doctors hasn't loved and lost, because that's my biggest worry about this whole split-Doctor's concept - the idea that one of them might have to sacrifice Rose all over again. I just wonder how they'll cut that.

As for the TARDIS,we've been promised heartbreak and I think it would be a very hard thing for the Doctor, and indeed Rose, to sacrifice her, but they'd probably have to and in the end they would.

There are a good few Aragorn/Arwen type legends where a woman gives up eternal life for a human mate.I think there'd be something very gay (in a good way) about RTD's Doctor making the opposite choice, and retreating to a safe space where he can be himself in a close relationship, and not be at war with himself any more. If they chuck that up just for some fashionable angst I won't forgive and forget. I'll just keep hoping...can't even watch until Sunday, which will make it harder to wait.

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

I think he is going to split instead so there is someone to do his job while he goes home to Rose.


I'll go you one further and say he comes out human or uses the Chameleon Arch to become human for his time with Rose.

And that is what I don't like. That and the Doctor staying behind not loving her. Well, but he did love her by the time he got his hand cut off. He just hadn't fallen deeper and lost her. Hmm.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...as I've said to others...it was a choice. And a very marked in canon choice...to have Christmas dinner with her family. Every choice changes the universe and the person according to DW canon...so Nine said he would NOT go to family dinner. Ten tells Donna, I don't do that...he doesn't just go do dinner with people because he's TEN now...he DOESN'T go to dinner. Yet, he makes that choice right after losing his hand.

He makes the choice...metaphorically to be adopted by Rose's family. And from that choice came so many others...Mickey understanding there would never be a Rose for him. Mickey going to the other universe. Jackie finding her Pete again and going to the other universe. All of the things that made the Doctor part of Rose Tyler's family...happened post loss of the hand. So, while he might well have loved her...and she might have been his soulmate...he was still at that point where he could have made ANOTHER choice.

He could have said...no...I'm not going to be part of this family...part of this woman. As for him becoming human...I have thought that might be what is left if he lets go of the regenerative ability...or at least...an ordinary Gallifreyan/Human hybrid person...not a Time Lord anymore. Since being a Time Lord isn't about biology but something else...at least that's what he told us in The Doctor's Daughter...and old school canon supports this.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

BTW...the Osterhagan Key is probably how we will find out that the Doctor has changed to human or human-hybrid...because I bet you that key kills all non-human life. There is too much final-solution/pure blood weight to that name to have it be otherwise.

Rae

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

But will Hand!Doctor have the Doctor's memories? If he does then he'll love Rose just as much, won't he?

If he doesn't... well, that would be bad. No memories of the past 4 odd years?

Argh. This show is killing me. In a bad way.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...no...I think he will have the memories he had up to where he was severed off. But that was pre-Christmas Dinner. And I know people vehemently disagree with me on this...but I don't think that RTD thought Nine loved Rose as much as Ten...I think Nine had the potential to love Rose but he was holding back from it.

So...in TCI we see him give in to the idea of loving this woman...just as we see Rose take part of that step too...when she refuses to say I love you back to Mickey as she leaves in New Earth. Rose is starting to head down the path to the Doctor as her complete partner...and he is heading toward her.

It is like when you love someone...for a few years...then you move in with them. The moving in makes things deeper...more committed. It's not that you didn't love them before...but say it hadn't worked out...you would move on easier than you would later on when you had opened up more and shared more with them.

Rae

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

Well, see, that's where I have a problem with this whole scenario: the Doctor we'll be following for the rest of DT's run not having the other Doctor's memories. Nor the love that defined him as the Doctor we know and love.

I'm tired of him being so emo, yes, but I figured RTD could allow him to spend some time with Rose, have access to her and maybe visit her whenever he wants and that would take away the emo. Silly, but, whatever.

But, this Doctor with no memories past TCI? He'd have no memories of Donna, Martha, and all the crap that's happened since TCI. That's one hell of a reset. I don't like that at all. Still, this is all just theory. Hee. I'm pretty sure I'm getting an ulcer just from this past week.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...there could be memories from the sharing of regenerative fire...but not associated feeling. So he could know who Martha is but not feel guilty for what he did to her. Know what happened with Rose but have a sort of detachment from it. And know Donna but not feel as much of an attachment to her. Since everyone will be leaving except maybe Martha...I don't see that it matters for the future of the show.

I doubt we will ever have them all back in one spot again...and Jack, Rose and Sarah Jane will not be hugely affected...and may well feel they have the other one TOO. Intellectually the new Doctor would know Martha and Donna were important to him. I think it is more like attachment...rather than knowledge or memory.

But, of course, the trouble with this whole theory is that someone will want "the proper Doctor" back some time in the future. And...I suppose...if Ten isn't human now...that we could have him back later in any case.

Rae

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

I want him back now! And he hasn't even left yet. :(

It's irrational, but I don't like the thought of the Doctor that we've gotten to know these past few years being... not him. It doesn't sit well with me.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...it is going to sit badly with people...I suppose. But I don't like the idea of Ten simply going on happily to sex up alien bimbos, either. The fact is we are probably not going to get Rose back permanently.

I would send Ten to Rose and have him off for a year of encore, flashback episodes and then regenerate afterward to the same man...only Eleven. But the BBC wants the cash cow of David Tennant onboard...they are looking at those numbers and thinking...as I did...that DW without RTD or TENNANT...is coming in at 5.4 or ever 4.5. So I think there is a reality to consider outside of the storyline.

My main concern is how we can get our Rose/Ten happy and still have David go on in the role...if they want to do this. We must remember there are other ways to do it...I initially said that we could just take a break...and they are taking a break. And Time passes in the other universe...and this universe no time passes...and there we go.

Same man...back from a vacation. But if they are going to have him look exactly like DT now...then they will have to explain why he aged in Last of the Time Lords.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Look at it this way...say...the fellow after Moffat is YOU. You think HAND Doctor is not the legit Doctor and you want Ten back...and you want it all to go away. Well...with the magic of SciFi...you simply open up the universe walls again...and make it all go away.

Because we must remember...TEN will still be alive...he'll just be with Rose. So if it turns out you don't like keeping DT in the role and making him more Time Lordish...and we want to rejoin him to his original self...well...you just invent a way to do that...and make it so. Even if they did make him human...Ten to Rose...you can fix that later.

Rae

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

Well, with Moffet I think the chances of Ten sexing up alien babes is highly probable unfortunately. Seems to be his thing. Blondes with R names. Except Rose, he can't take credit for her.

Because we must remember...TEN will still be alive...he'll just be with Rose. So if it turns out you don't like keeping DT in the role and making him more Time Lordish...and we want to rejoin him to his original self...well...you just invent a way to do that...and make it so. Even if they did make him human...Ten to Rose...you can fix that later.

That's true. And the silver lining in all of this is the avenues it opens up for fanfic.

With Mickey and Jackie being in the next episode, I'm wondering if we won't get glimpses of his life there with Rose. That's assuming it happens something like this at all.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I was thinking...With Mickey and Jackie being in the next episode, I'm wondering if we won't get glimpses of his life there with Rose. That's assuming it happens something like this at all.

If he goes back to the beach...then really...he could be in the other universe...running things so Rose can go help him. This could be another way to have the three-fold man...and answer that "who is his wife?" question...Jackie or Mickey could let something slip indicating that Rose is married. Then the Doctor would have to think...well...if she's married to anyone...it's going to be to me.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

And you are so right about Moffat...he has made it crystal clear that his Doctor is a player. So if we don't do something...then he has Ten as a player...and all the three years or so of love was for nothing...and is something that Ten just gets over and moves on from.

Rae

[marrael.livejournal.com]

Theoretically, our Doctor could do the Vulcan Mind Meld with Hand!Doctor so that Hand!Doctor is caught up... For me, that'll fix it.

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

If he goes back to the beach...then really...he could be in the other universe...running things so Rose can go help him. This could be another way to have the three-fold man...and answer that "who is his wife?" question...Jackie or Mickey could let something slip indicating that Rose is married. Then the Doctor would have to think...well...if she's married to anyone...it's going to be to me.

Oh, I like that idea. Although, I sort of don't as well. I definitely like the idea of him having been running things this whole time. I also like the idea of him and Rose being together. But the married thing kind of makes me cringe for the loss of old Who. It's a bit fanfic-ish.

So if we don't do something...then he has Ten as a player...and all the three years or so of love was for nothing...and is something that Ten just gets over and moves on from.

This is exactly why I have a problem with this theory. The Doctor was defined by his love for, and loss of, Rose these past few years. If he just shrugs it off as nothing doing, then I feel cheated. As will all the Doctor/Rose shippers. I'm sure the anti-Rose people will adore it, but it's a cheat and one that shouldn't be used to get out of something that Moffet and fans don't like.

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

I like the twin/clone/two Doctors/Hand!Doctor idea a LOT. A lot a lot. It just solves everything so neatly - one Doctor to continue saving the universe, one Doctor to go make babies with Rose. :)

You're not the only one speculating this, so lets hope the combined forces of all the Rose/Doctor shippers' wills can make this a reality!

I want my happily ever after, dammit!

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

With the knowledge but without the feelings? Yeah, he could do that. I wouldn't like it, because I think the Doctor should be the same Doctor we've all grown to love these past few years and not a reset, but I can see them doing that.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

But...the Doctor with the feelings is going to Rose. He's still around. He's not dying. The Ship is totally served by that.

I suppose your point is you don't want to watch David Tennant as Ten if he's not the Ten that he has always been. So for you...it only works if he goes to Rose and comes back...or forgets about her somehow...or the show ends...or...he goes on suffering until we all get over it or...what?

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

See? I can make such a good case for the hand clone idea in canon. I mean...it fits so well with all we know...and it gives us our cake and our shipper happy. And it lets us view Moffat's work as TEMP work if we so desire. It's one of those things that you can debate at conventions 4-eva! I mean...people can already divide the fandom between old school and new school...now we have the idea of Pre-Hand Doctor...is he REAL or is the Post-HAND Doctor the man he should have been all along?

I think it is marvelous...and, like you say, I hope that our collective unconscious is picking up on what RTD is really doing for us.

Rae
also wanting the DOCTOR to go to Rose...and rest and be happy...and have babies.

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

I dunno, and that's my problem with this whole scenario. I want Ten and Rose happy and together. I want them to get a happily ever after. But I also want Ten--the one we'll be seeing every episode--to be the one we've been watching.

I absolutely do not want Ten to forget about Rose. At all. Ever.

I don't want the show to end. No.

I don't want him to suffer. I'm rather sick of the emo.

I seriously don't see how I can be happy with anything that happens. But the best case scenario is the one you've theorized. But with DT being the same Doctor we've been seeing. *shrug* I'm hard to please. And fanfic shall be my savior. ;)

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...I suppose I could have made you happy. Because I would have simply sent Ten to Rose and then had three or four flashback episodes showing his time traveling alone...while also showing his relationship with Rose and their children and grandchildren in cameo shots. Then, next Christmas, I would have had Ten regenerate into Eleven and gone on with all the same memories and the same man.

But then...I hear that they really want DAVID to go on...and I would never rewrite canon when canon supports some other solution...such as this one. In order to have David go on...after spending time with Rose...David has to age, wear all that old man makeup. Or we all have to accept that Rose died young. Or we have to have more fanwank to explain why he didn't age...you could do that. They could still do that...just have some sort of other universe explanation. But it all gets more complicated...and it seems to me that if you want your cake and to eat it too...and if the fandom is split about the very idea of the Doctor in love...then splitting the Doctor makes some sense. And the canon supports it completely...there's the hand...right there by his feet.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Also...I hope you know that HAND Doctor could well be a temporary Doctor in any case. He could explore the universe and then bring the Time Lords back or something...and THEN we bring Eleven from the universe with Rose and go on with the same man THAT way.

Rae

[sinecure.livejournal.com]

I like Ten, so I'm happy with David staying.

I'm pretty sure he said in School Reunion that he doesn't age. I actually think he does, but very, very slowly.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...the DOCTOR doesn't age. Or wither and die. What he said in School Reunion is "I don't age, I regenerate." However, in Last of the Time Lords the Master says he is aging the Doctor 100 years...and the Doctor becomes a 100 year old man. Then the Master says he ages the Doctor 1000 years and the Doctor becomes a muppet.

The only way to change this is to now explain that there was another reason he aged more than usual...or differently than usual...in LotTL. And...I think that the reason RTD had him age normally (which was a change to canon from Old School) was so that he wouldn't be a young man with an old woman Rose...but would suit her as the aged normally together. I can think of no other reason why RTD would rewrite the old school in this fashion other than to adapt to his storyline.

Of course, it could have been a mistake and could be rewritten again.

Rae

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

If we reset to before the Time War (and there are some significant clues that what's happening in the finale is that there's a TW rematch going on) then the whole relationship with Rose is put into question because the Time War made the Doctor the man who loved her.

With the theme of "the road not taken" already explored in "Turn Left" and Donna's stated ability to create parallel worlds around herself, I think they could bring back the Gallifrey connection and allow the Time Lords themselves as arbitrators of the Doctor's fate.

The human companions might well argue that the Doctor has earned the right to mercy, that his relationship to Rose ought to be honoured, especially if people have died for it. And one way the Time Lords could do that would be to allow one of the Doctors to become human and voluntarily exiled to a parallel world.I agree the whole thing might be easier to sell if they got rid of Tennant, and they might yet do that, but even if he stays, it can't be beyond the wit of a race that made multiple back-up copies of its own planet (according to book canon) to figure something out.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...the three-fold man idea does give us the ability to do all three things...reset the universe from where the Doctor is a boy. Create another universe around Donna and the HAND...and have Rose take her Doctor back to her universe. So...we have three Doctors...in three different universes.

The idea of a Time Lord trial was what I thought was going to happen way back at Last of the Time Lords...to get him exiled to Rose. But at this point...I think we have far too many elements in play already. If Gallifrey returns...I think it will return at the very end of things for the WHAT? moment. I do feel that the events are going to revolve around Donna and the Doctor. And one of the happy solutions revolves around Rose and the Doctor. Because after all...Donna would want him to have Rose and a happy life, because Donna loves him like a sister.

I do feel that the theme of the "road not taken" will come into play though...probably all the way down the line. A universe without Daleks means no Time War, too.

Rae

Just dropping by from <lj user=goin_my_way>

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I'm really keen on the idea that Donna is a Time Lady or will be... but I want her to become something rather than be a fobwatched time lord. That would deny her her family on Earth, make them not really her family, and I don't want to take that away from Donna.

I love the idea of the Doctor getting twinned. Storywise, that would allow them to bring back DT even when they switch actors again in the future.

I definitely agree that no matter waht, the hand will be involved.

It is possible that it all gets shared

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

The idea that everyone needs to "get bacK" as Jack said. So what if Donna rushes forward and takes some of the regeneration fire and the rest goes to the hand?

It is just that the hand is so visible...and an obvious way to clone TEN so that the Doctor can go to Rose. I was all for making Donna a Time Lady...all along...but so many people want TEN to stay...and RTD and I want him to go to Rose. So...it seems like the HAND might be the way to have both things.

Rae
welcoming you over from goin_my_way...I love that group. ;->

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I think this is definitely a Time War rematch. It was sort of that from the moment Rose comes back as the other him. Did you see my post, oh about two months ago, about my Rose in Pete's World story that would never happen because I felt RTD was going there? Basically, I was going to refight the Time War with Rose taking the Doctor's place in things...as she was her universe's Doctor.

The reason I saw that as a viable storyline...was that Rose left us in a Dalek episode and there was a way to have the war come to Pete's World. RTD is pretty much doing that...so yeah, my story is redundant. It is amazing to me still...how much of what I envisioned post Doomsday for that story is what we are seeing here. Rose appearing with the big gun for example...totally...and the explosions around her as she walks on...and Jack being in it...and Mickey and Sarah Jane. I feel like RTD was simply making it all there in his subtext for me...and now he's tying it all together the way he had always intended it to go.

It is not what we are used to in television...a throughline. But I don't think it was excessive insight that caused me to see the throughline...it was just that it WAS there to see. More and more people are mentioning the hand...because the hand is THERE to mention. Realistically...at this stage in the game...some of us should be able to figure it out...if it has always been in RTD's mind what he meant to do...which is what he's telling us. I think we are just so used to be bullshitted by television writers and producers that we can't believe someone COULD really have some idea what he meant to do all along.

Rae

[islwyn13.livejournal.com]

Hello! One of my very rare comments, I hope you don't mind my jumping in.

I always saw the Master's aging of the Doctor to be a manipulation of the Doctor's DNA...a kind of mutation. Time Lords don't normally age like humans, but the Master forced the Doctor's DNA to do just that, just to make the Doctor suffer. So I don't think the fact that he aged rewrites what was stated in School Reunion, "I don't age..." It's a different aging, an unnatural aging.

I do see what you're saying about the reason RTD might have tried to rewrite that issue, though. The idea that if the Doctor DOES age like a human, his life with Rose wouldn't be weird for either of them - they'd age together. But I think they could still have a life together if he doesn't age, it would just be more angsty. (And who loves angst more that RTD, hmm?)

[catsfiction.livejournal.com]

Another tiny little connection I spotted on the JE trailer - there's an interior shot of the TARDIS with a blue jacket hanging over a strut. It could be Rose's of course. But that's a nice little connection with the first time Donna met the Doctor in that room, and in fact their first moment of real connection came when he lent her his jacket on the rooftop.

I'm sure these little details are added to build up that satisfying sense of continuity, even if they have no obvious place in the Grand Unified Cosmic Fobwatch Theory of Everything, or whatever.

[slvrcrystalc.livejournal.com]

*****Spoilernesses******
Omg, you're right. RTD really did do it. I didn't think he would but he did! A genuine happy Rose/Doctor ending[for 2/3 of them, at least], with him LIVING HIS LIFE with Rose. I thought you were just being optimistic!

Do you know what I hate most? It's that at the end of it all, where everyone is happy and joyful, he's standing there at his TARDIS. Alone. [forever]

You are a Doctor Who saint. You so totally called it! [and from very far away, too!] *gives out uber-large gooey brownies* More ficz nao plz?


******End Spoilernesses*******