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rabid1stDon't get yourself upset about the title on this post, even if you are spoiler sensitive.
It's not a spoiler about episode 8...or really...anything.
It's just about something someone purposed after episode 8 that I found rather silly.
But I am going to discuss both things in this post...4x08 and Jack's history with the Doctor...so don't read any further than this cut if you don't want to know...or if you haven't seen Torchwood. I have, btw, should anyone want to respond to me about this and reference TWS2.
Okay, I admit when I first heard the "It's Jack" idea I chuckled. I hadn't really digested the preview clips yet and I felt that the "Jack is involved somehow with everything people" were getting as bad as we "Rose is involved with everything people" and managing to get all worked up about a squareness gun. And...well...there was a lot of repetition of theme in this episode from other Moffat episodes. It is not beyond the realm of reason that Moffat just has the one stock adventure character at his disposal and it reads like Jack to us.
But...after I thought about it some more...and digested the coming attractions clip...I can make a better case for River being Jack. Which I shall now do for the benefit of those who I chuckled at earlier. :grin: I can so be humble, Kes! Yes, I can! Maybe I was wrong to think the idea was silly...and here's why...
1) River says they've been to the end of the universe. Okay, well the Doctor goes lots of places twice and could have found some reason to take River there or go to rescue her as she is on some archeological dig...but it would mean delving into a very nasty paradox on top of a major event at the end of where the TARDIS could comfortably travel. So...is he likely to go the the end of the universe, again? Maybe not. So maybe River is someone who was there in Utopia. Jack or Martha or the Master. Or we are talking about another end of the universe...such as the one that might be about to happen with Rose.
2) The recognition thing seems to go beyond the physical. If this is Jack from our Jack's future...then she would recognize Ten...but she seems to recognize THE DOCTOR. So, it seems she's met a future Doctor and knows that there are more than one of him. Also she seems to be apart from him a lot and they need the "diaries" to catch up when they meet again. This would imply they pop in and out of each other's lives.
3) She calls it "very early days"...but again doesn't recognize him. She is talking about the Doctor's early days. For some reason he's shared some things with her and not others...which makes sense with him. Again, she could just be a beloved companion ala Sarah Jane, but the early days thing doesn't apply to the Master. They go way back. Early days applies to Jack or Rose or a time before this River person knew him at all. Add in that she was shocked over Donna being there...and she's placed the time frame at a scary point for her. Maybe close to the time she knows she will lose everything, her body and her chance to be normal again. Or maybe a time she can influence her own future from.
4) Early on Jack said that the Time Agency stole 2 years of his memories. That's why he left them. I have always felt that it was possible he knew the Doctor before, during those 2 years, and that's why they were taken. Maybe the two linear years of diary keeping for River are the 2 years that were taken from Jack. Maybe it wasn't the Time Agency that took them...maybe it was the Doctor.
5) Also early on Jack said that he'd been pregnant and wouldn't be doing that again. So, if he was a woman at some point...that would explain the pregnancy. This time is the 51st century and we see via the statues how flexible the use of flesh is during this time. That's one thing that we have to consider. It is possible that gender could be flexible as well as sexual preference being flexible*. Jack meeting Ten takes the "new look" of the Doctor in stride...knowing about regeneration from his time at Torchwood...but maybe also accepting the idea of changing bodies and forms more easily. Jack could have been male, then female, then male then a big giant head in a tank.
6) River does seem to be a Time Agent of sorts...and something of a con man. She refused to sign her contract. There are character similarities with her and Jack...the adventure persona...the "Hello, sweetie" and "Pretty boy" comments. Also, the I hate you sometimes business in the preview is very like Jack as is the Doctor's "I know." Though those things also match up with a long standing and uneasy marriage. It is doubtful that TEN knows this woman as she now appears but River might know something that will make it clear that she is Jack and/or the Face of Boe.
7) The Face of Boe is the only other person that we know of that can send a message to the Doctor via the psychic paper. And Boe might be Jack. River might be Boe. And when Boe saw that the Doctor was with Rose...he went away without sharing his news in New Earth. That has always made me think that Boe knew better than to mess with the Rose time line. This is something Jack would be sensitive about doing as well...messing with Rose's time in anyway. Not only because he loves Rose and he understands what she and the Doctor mean to one another, but also because she is so closely tied to his own story.
8) And here it would be coming around again...when River meets Donna...she realizes that she has called the wrong Doctor...or called him way too early in his Tenth life...and she can't share anything with him about what's to come.
So...see...it does all go back to Rose. :grin:
*This played into my Donna could be the next Doctor theory as well. And that adds another really kicking dimension to all this. If they are introducing the concept of changing genders. But is it a dimension that the regular Doctor Who viewer can swallow? Or will they insist on a "proper Doctor" going on in 2010.
Rae
It's not a spoiler about episode 8...or really...anything.
It's just about something someone purposed after episode 8 that I found rather silly.
But I am going to discuss both things in this post...4x08 and Jack's history with the Doctor...so don't read any further than this cut if you don't want to know...or if you haven't seen Torchwood. I have, btw, should anyone want to respond to me about this and reference TWS2.
Okay, I admit when I first heard the "It's Jack" idea I chuckled. I hadn't really digested the preview clips yet and I felt that the "Jack is involved somehow with everything people" were getting as bad as we "Rose is involved with everything people" and managing to get all worked up about a squareness gun. And...well...there was a lot of repetition of theme in this episode from other Moffat episodes. It is not beyond the realm of reason that Moffat just has the one stock adventure character at his disposal and it reads like Jack to us.
But...after I thought about it some more...and digested the coming attractions clip...I can make a better case for River being Jack. Which I shall now do for the benefit of those who I chuckled at earlier. :grin: I can so be humble, Kes! Yes, I can! Maybe I was wrong to think the idea was silly...and here's why...
1) River says they've been to the end of the universe. Okay, well the Doctor goes lots of places twice and could have found some reason to take River there or go to rescue her as she is on some archeological dig...but it would mean delving into a very nasty paradox on top of a major event at the end of where the TARDIS could comfortably travel. So...is he likely to go the the end of the universe, again? Maybe not. So maybe River is someone who was there in Utopia. Jack or Martha or the Master. Or we are talking about another end of the universe...such as the one that might be about to happen with Rose.
2) The recognition thing seems to go beyond the physical. If this is Jack from our Jack's future...then she would recognize Ten...but she seems to recognize THE DOCTOR. So, it seems she's met a future Doctor and knows that there are more than one of him. Also she seems to be apart from him a lot and they need the "diaries" to catch up when they meet again. This would imply they pop in and out of each other's lives.
3) She calls it "very early days"...but again doesn't recognize him. She is talking about the Doctor's early days. For some reason he's shared some things with her and not others...which makes sense with him. Again, she could just be a beloved companion ala Sarah Jane, but the early days thing doesn't apply to the Master. They go way back. Early days applies to Jack or Rose or a time before this River person knew him at all. Add in that she was shocked over Donna being there...and she's placed the time frame at a scary point for her. Maybe close to the time she knows she will lose everything, her body and her chance to be normal again. Or maybe a time she can influence her own future from.
4) Early on Jack said that the Time Agency stole 2 years of his memories. That's why he left them. I have always felt that it was possible he knew the Doctor before, during those 2 years, and that's why they were taken. Maybe the two linear years of diary keeping for River are the 2 years that were taken from Jack. Maybe it wasn't the Time Agency that took them...maybe it was the Doctor.
5) Also early on Jack said that he'd been pregnant and wouldn't be doing that again. So, if he was a woman at some point...that would explain the pregnancy. This time is the 51st century and we see via the statues how flexible the use of flesh is during this time. That's one thing that we have to consider. It is possible that gender could be flexible as well as sexual preference being flexible*. Jack meeting Ten takes the "new look" of the Doctor in stride...knowing about regeneration from his time at Torchwood...but maybe also accepting the idea of changing bodies and forms more easily. Jack could have been male, then female, then male then a big giant head in a tank.
6) River does seem to be a Time Agent of sorts...and something of a con man. She refused to sign her contract. There are character similarities with her and Jack...the adventure persona...the "Hello, sweetie" and "Pretty boy" comments. Also, the I hate you sometimes business in the preview is very like Jack as is the Doctor's "I know." Though those things also match up with a long standing and uneasy marriage. It is doubtful that TEN knows this woman as she now appears but River might know something that will make it clear that she is Jack and/or the Face of Boe.
7) The Face of Boe is the only other person that we know of that can send a message to the Doctor via the psychic paper. And Boe might be Jack. River might be Boe. And when Boe saw that the Doctor was with Rose...he went away without sharing his news in New Earth. That has always made me think that Boe knew better than to mess with the Rose time line. This is something Jack would be sensitive about doing as well...messing with Rose's time in anyway. Not only because he loves Rose and he understands what she and the Doctor mean to one another, but also because she is so closely tied to his own story.
8) And here it would be coming around again...when River meets Donna...she realizes that she has called the wrong Doctor...or called him way too early in his Tenth life...and she can't share anything with him about what's to come.
So...see...it does all go back to Rose. :grin:
*This played into my Donna could be the next Doctor theory as well. And that adds another really kicking dimension to all this. If they are introducing the concept of changing genders. But is it a dimension that the regular Doctor Who viewer can swallow? Or will they insist on a "proper Doctor" going on in 2010.
Rae