Something fairly obvious about songs...S4 DW Spoiler Again

[rabid1st]

Again I am discussing Season 4 Episode 3 adding to my previous thoughts...so I need a cut tag

All the musing I did on songs and all the obvious metaphor flags for death aside...in context...the song conversation was blatantly about the end of the Doctor's traveling. The Ood asks the Doctor and Donna to stay because there is room in the song for them, too. And the Doctor refuses, indicates the TARDIS and remarks that he has his own song. At that point the Ood tells him his song is coming to an end. The Doctor asks what he means...but the obvious answer is that the Ood means exactly what the Doctor meant...the endless traveling is coming to an end.



Rae

Comments

[tsukikage85.livejournal.com]

Oooor, that he's gonna "die" and regenerate at the end of the season? Although I suppose they might find a way to make the two not mutually exclusive.

[roxyk630.livejournal.com]

GAH! I wish you could read mine. WE SO LINE UP ON THIS THINKING. XD;;;

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Well...yes...that is the simplist possible way of looking at it.

Here's a further discussion for you to think on...

http://rabid1st.livejournal.com/152853.html

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

This will show you the error of posting future spoilers with current spoilers. :grin:

On the other hand I do know the frustration of trying to explain to someone what sort of spoiler you've posted and yet not give the spoiler away...so I will pat your shoulder in sympathy.

Perhaps you could cut and paste the relevant parts of your post over here...leaving out the future spoiler bits.

Rae
who was surprised to make this very obvious connection on a reviewing. And also, wondering where I picked up the term "song of despair"...

[irishlullaby.livejournal.com]

I see it as a bit of like "one chapter ends another begins" type metaphor. Yes, the Doctor's song ends, but then a new one begins. perhaps the "song" they are referring to is his loneliness... perhaps his sad song is about to end and a happier one will begin.

I dunno. That's just me.

[roxyk630.livejournal.com]

Okay, I have edited said post. XD; Now its just got casting spoilers for S4 which I believe you know about post Ep1. Since I have no idea how long she's IN said series... I make some spec on that. I took out the photography spoiler. Beyond that its purely my speculation and episode/character evidence to sum it up.

There's one MINOR spoiler for TW S1 if you haven't seen that. Its one sentance that Jack says that I use for backup evidence.

XD;;; *now I'm paranoid that I haven't removed them all!*

I think the Doctor says its a "Song of Dispair" to Donna before he lets her hear it?

[principia.livejournal.com]

The thing is, the music is not just his theme, it's Doom music, from what I can tell. Which means his song ending could be not his current life coming to an end, but rather that the song of emptiness and separation he's apparently been living in since he and Rose were parted is ending.

[brilliantomega.livejournal.com]

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

No...it's not there...because I went and listened to that bit again. And there he calls it "the song of captivity." Of course, Rose is a prisoner and so is he in a way...he's trapped in his role as "last of the Time Lords."

Rae
off to read your post...TW won't spoil me...I've seen them all.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Yeah...pretty much what I said in this post. He could hear that music because it represents Rose coming to him...from his perspective.

Rae

[(Anonymous)]

Ahhhhhh ... "Despair" sounds WAY better.

;) I probably sound REALLY crackpot compared to you!

[roxyk630.livejournal.com]

ugh. That was me. XD;

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I do think he does use the word...I just have to listen to the whole thing again.

Rae

[principia.livejournal.com]

What I thought you were meaning by this post is that you were agreeing with the interpretation of that exchange as meaning Ten is coming to an end soon. You don't actually mention Rose, just his travelling coming to an end.

Anyhoo...

The thing that kinda freaked me out about the scene was not the 'your song is ending' but the rather strong implication that the background music is not always, well, background music.

Example: we know the Doctor clearly did not sense Rose (for whatever reason) when she was there/not there during PiC. Is it possible that he could/will sense her, by hearing her 'song' at some point when they're proximate to one another?

Oh...I see...no, I mean he's going to settle.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Since that was the context of the exchange...settle here with us.

No, I've got my own song (traveling endlessly in my blue box over there).

Your song is coming to an end (the traveling needs to stop).

What do you mean? (I'm dying soon?)

All songs must end. (Let's not panic, I'm talking about this part of your life...our sad song just ended...and now we sing a happy song).

Also, we do hark back again here to Parting of the Ways...when Rose speaking via the Vortex says "all things end...all things come to dust." This supports the idea of the Doctor dying. But you know...it could be death that is facing him...only not the way people are thinking. I'm thinking he might have the same choice as all work-a-holics...death or vacation.

You can keep going on as you are...and turn into something cold and hard and godlike...or you can step away and allow the universe and yourself a little space. You can remember who you are at the core...in the arms of your loved ones...beyond your work. That is the very essence of what allows us to go on...being able to, every so often, let go.

And I hope you did notice the wistfulness he got in his voice when he reached "birthdays, Christmases...two weeks vacation a year" in the list of ordinary things Donna was escaping from...it struck me that he was remembering happy birthdays and Christmases. And to lose the thread completely at two-weeks vacation...well...to me that says..."Take a vacation, Doctor."

Rae

And when I say, "settle"...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...I mean...stop traveling for awhile and live a life with Rose Tyler Smith.

Think how amusing it would be if Rose is crossing the timeline somehow and he learned she was married and her last name was Smith? Because he would, quite naturally assume then that she had married Mickey. And she wouldn't be able to tell him anything else for fear of damaging the time line.

I always have been amused by that little tidbit from RTD...Mickey's last name being the same one the Doctor would use...so Rose ends up as Mrs. Smith regardless of which man she picks...sort of the inevitablity of time.

Rae

Re: Oh...I see...no, I mean he's going to settle.

[principia.livejournal.com]

Your song is coming to an end (the traveling needs to stop).

He said as much himself at the end of LotTL, although in that case it was hardly in a happy context.

And to lose the thread completely at two-weeks vacation...well...to me that says..."Take a vacation, Doctor."

I have said before (back after the end of S3 when folks were kicking around how they might best close out the Tennant era) that one of the possibilities for a happy ending (or at least as close as there can be in Who) for the Doctor and Rose is for Ten to go live out the rest of Rose's life with her in the PW, then return after her eventual passing. Various folks have also mooted he might come back with their kid(s) or grandkid(s) in tow as his new companion(s).

Re: And when I say, "settle"...

[principia.livejournal.com]

Think how amusing it would be if Rose is crossing the timeline somehow and he learned she was married and her last name was Smith?

I've posited that they might be pulling a scenario similar to rosa_acicularis' Days and Hours, which this would also tie into.

I'm one of those people that thinks...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...he will come back with a grandkid in tow. The old man showing the younger generation around. Then, he can regenerate and really show them something.

I've always believed the story should end with them together. But I didn't see the light of him going to her...until a couple of days after Doomsday. I do believe DT is leaving after the specials. RTD should leave, too. So the new writer has free rein on the new Doctor...to tell HIS story.

And I believe the specials, if they are happening, are going to show us time passing in Rose's world. All they need do is add a bit of grey at David's temples...emphasize a few smile lines...and VOILA...he's older and wiser and here to help us with out little overwhelming problem. They could set up a signalling system of some kind via the TARDIS so that Jack or Sarah Jane or anyone could call him in if things got really dicey and it's more than they can handle.

Rae

[principia.livejournal.com]

Okay, listening to that section again: up through the point where he's just 'switched off' Donna...

Donna: But you can still hear it.
The Doctor: All the time. [my emphasis]

Going back and checking the first time he hears the song onwards.

[slvrcrystalc.livejournal.com]

Another plus on your "The Doctor spends a life-time with Rose" theory. ^.^

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

You do not believe in my theories. But you can see from my latest update that I've had them for a very long time.

Rae

[slvrcrystalc.livejournal.com]

I still can't believe that RTD would do something that positive for the Doctor when most of the show is made up of his angst. Alas-ness.

[wickedgillie.livejournal.com]

Here's a question for you: given that Rose is perfectly suited for the companion lifestyle and seemed less keen on being domestic in the traditional sense, do you think she and Ten will settle for staying stationary in both time and space and not get into trouble? That's not to say that they won't be some sort of domestic and that families and birthdays and a cottage by the sea and Christmas will all happen, but I can't see them both being able to keep away the itch for something more besides.

I think his journey without Rose and being the last of his kind is coming to an end because thanks to Rose, the Time Lords can be born again which makes the story more interesting for the next person (hopefully Moffat!) who takes the helm. But I can't see them not getting back in that TARDIS every now and again. It's counter to both of their natures.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the beautiful virtual flowers. They stay fresh much longer than the real thing. :grin:

Well, I happen to think Rose is...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...ideally suited to the Doctor's lifestyle. But I'm not sure that she loved traveling so much as she loved the overall sense of what they did together. I am writing a story right now about how I think their life together would look. But, the thing I think people don't consider is that the Doctor was exiled to Earth in his third incarnation and he found loads of things to do.

We see via Sarah Jane and Jack that the human race is now facing lots of contact with alien species. Rose's world is probably facing the same issues. The difference between our world and Rose's world is that...so far as we know...Rose's world didn't have a Doctor. This means that his influence isn't felt in organizations. Their Torchwood wasn't founded with him as Enemy #1. It was founded for another reason...possibly because Queen Victoria was a werewolf and the royal line died out making a President in charge.

Rose is providing the Doctorly influence to her entire world...as things stand at the moment. It could turn out that her world DOES have a Doctor...or did. But if we assume she is the sole force for peaceful alien/human interaction...she's going to be a busy girl. I don't think she and the Doctor would have any lack of interesting events to keep them occupied in the short time they have. It would be akin to turning around the entire universe in 75 years. Big job for one little Rose Tyler...in fact, big job even if she got the Doctor's help.

Rae

This is actually one of the underlying themes

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...of New Who...that one song ends and another begins. People who are anxious for Rose (or Russell) to have very little influence on the show they loved from their childhood...don't want the essential format of the series to change, at all. This is part of why they squeak over the idea that the Doctor could have romantic feelings for a human (and a companion). The companion must leave. The Doctor must regenerate. The endless cycle must go on as it always has, in their view.

But if Doctor Who is really a show about change...then the essential format can be changed, too. Not at it's fundamental level but RTD has shown that it is possible to skip years...and set up backstory for the Doctor. He's shown that you can have the Doctor love one companion romantically and not love another romantically and it really doesn't change the relative values of the companions to him. I feel Martha is very important to him. He loves her in a non-romantic way and really wants what is best for her. He doesn't love her like he loves Rose. He doesn't love her like he loves Donna or Jack or the Brigadier.

That the Doctor is a complex individual with complex issues and a full backstory that we, the viewers, don't completely comprehend isn't really as much of a change to the show as the Old School whiners would have us believe. All RTD is doing is opening up a chapter for us...letting us see the workings of a backstory by presenting his essential idea...what if the Doctor found he really wanted to live a normal human life for a time? Would that be so very wrong? And who would he pick to live that life with...Madam De Pompadour or Cleopatra?

NO! If he wanted brilliant, beautiful, cultured women...he could have had that at home. He left those peopel behind. He would pick an ordinary human girl...because ordinary people fascinate him. They are the ones who really matter to him.

Rae