Crazy Martha Shippers vs. People Who Ship Martha Like Crazy

[rabid1st]

For those of you who are unaware, there is a pledge making the rounds of some LJ communities. A noble pledge to crack down on anyone bashing a character or fans of said character. I think it is a fantastic idea but, frankly, it made me a bit tetchy on first blush.

I'm not the sort of person who likes being curtailed by subjective rulings. What I ask you...is bashing? Are we no longer allowed to say we don't like something...or that batchip crazy people are batchip crazy? Okay...maybe that's exactly what it means. :-> Be more polite. Think before you react.

I do generally believe in polite behavior, even online. I think we can all afford to give a little and it never hurts to examine ourselves and our behavior. Recently, I found myself using the term "Bitch, puhleez!" which is flat out crude and I should really go delete that comment. So after a bit of grousing I accepted this pledge as a good idea.

And then, I started the self-examination part of this exercise and realized that I had probably upset a few of my LJ-friends by my occasional reference to "crazy Martha-shippers." I feel I should take this moment to apologize if I've offended you and also to clarify my terms.

This is long...so under a cut we go...

Crazy Martha-Shippers, in my mind, are a breed apart. They are literally Martha-shippers who are crazy. They are like Old Schoolers who can't accept the Doctor changing, but claim to view change as sacred. When I talk about crazy people, I'm being quite specific. I mean people who have jumped off the reality bridge into their own sea of denial. They no longer hear the words said in canon. And it's not that I blame these people...I have entertained the urge to jump free of canon many times...I have paddled about in those crazy waters myself off a 'ship or two.

But there is a sharp distinction in my mind from someone who claims, for example, that not loving Martha is a sign of latent racial bigotry on the Doctor's part (or on mine...or RTD's)...and the person who thinks Martha is just peachy keen, wishes she could be companion-forever and wants everyone to love her.

If you're the sort of Martha-lover who thinks she's refreshing and spunky and admirable for her steadfastness...
If you support the underdog who remains loyal despite no returned affection...
If you think it would be great if she was rewarded for her selfless devotion...
If you think she's pretty and smart and fun to have around...
If you like the cut of her jib and wish all companions followed her example...

...please know I am not speaking of you when I address the crazy Martha-Shipper issues.

Bless you. Go, write fic where the scales fall from the Doctor's eyes and he discovers a previously unexplored depth of love in his soul, a love that saves and inspires him.

I will not read your fic. But I don't mean to discourage you from writing it. I, also, will not pop over to talk you out of your Martha-shipping on your journal or a Martha/Doctor community...or remind you how wonderful Rose was/is when you share your joy in the DW communities. I will do both of those things in my own journal and in Rose-oriented Communities though, as I would hope you would show me the same courtesy and not try to talk me out of loving Rose. Because I do love Rose. And I don't like Martha. To me, "No" means "No" and "Stop" means "Stop" and selfless devotion to lost causes is pointless and lame. You can't really talk me out of those takes on life either.

But that's okay..what one person finds adorable another person finds annoying. I love cats, but I can see how their slinky walk and steady eye could freak someone out. Since Martha was written as a counterweight to Rose...it makes sense that some Rose lovers wouldn't care for her. That doesn't mean I think NOBODY should care for her. I don't like spiders, but I know they have their good points. As long as nobody drops a spider on me...I don't go out of my way to crush the little monsters.

As far as companions go...I didn't like Turlough either, just didn't see his charms. I don't like Mel, either. And I never warmed to Nyssa or Romana II, though they were mostly charming people. I love Sarah Jane but would never have thought to ship her with the Doctor. When it comes to shipping the Doctor with anyone...I have very exacting standards. And very canon valid reasons for the opinions I hold.

And let's face it...I'm not a person known for holding back my opinion of anything. But, yeah...I suppose there is no need to be rude about it.



Rae

Comments

[dettiot.livejournal.com]

Amen, sister. I don't have a problem at all with people who think Martha is awesomesauce. I don't agree with them, I won't read their fic, I won't join their discussions. But that doesn't mean I don't respect their right to love whoever they like.

But the crazy people? The ones who, in your brilliant words, who have jumped off the reality bridge into their own sea of denial? Those folks, I can't even respect. Because they're so determined to promote their agenda, they've lost all touch of canon and logic and facts. And you can't have a discussion with those kinds of people, sadly, because they won't let you.

[is so very glad for the SPDN and her little corner of fandom . . . a corner that has seemed strangely bigger than ever over the last few days] [grin]

[measi.livejournal.com]

Word. All of it.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

"No" means "No" and "Stop" means "Stop" and selfless devotion to lost causes is pointless and lame.

But....but....you were a Spuffy....and that *IS* Spike to a "t"

iz confused...

'Course Spike is totally, way hotter than Martha...

(This moment of attempted humor has been brought to you by the letter "R")

[auntiesuze.livejournal.com]

What you just said? Ditto.

If folks like Martha, fine. I don't get it, because I don't like her, but everybody is entitled to their opinion. It's a free internets. I'll just not read the Doctor/Martha fics (actually, I haven't even been reading ANY fics with Martha - shippy or not - 'cause I'm just not that into her), not participate in those discussions, etc., but you are welcome to do what you like.

But there are those "Harmonian"-level of Martha fans (and if you followed that whole HP wank, you'll know what I mean). That special brand of crazy folks who think that if you like Rose, you must hate Martha or if you don't like Martha, you're racist or...whatever. That's just nuts. I try to stay as far away from this crowd as possible.

As for the pledge...I'm not into bashing of characters or fans...but it needs to go both ways. Shouldn't Rose and her fans get the same courtesy? That's all I'm sayin'.

[swankkat.livejournal.com]

There's not really anything I can disagree with here.

I'm personally very tired of the finger pointing that seems to be going around fandom like moon-cycles. It's disappointing to me, and it's discouraging to new fans of the show. That alone is why I support the pledge going around. It's something that comms should discourage anyways, imho - it's fine to be passionate about your belief, but a community is not always the best place to vent about your frustrations and dislike of a character. We're part of a "shipper" community, not a "martha (or whoever) sucks" community, and I think people lose sight of what's important sometimes, especially when the flames of fanwank start to flare up again.

...granted, I tend to have a liberal view on shipping (ie. Whatever floats your boat, as long as you don't try to sink mine.), so my opinions should probably just be kept to myself.

Edited to say that my views apply to all shipper comms, not just the Rose-centric ones that I happen to be a part of. Unfortunately, the only comms we can do anything about are the ones we're a part of, and the Martha groups have to come to this decision on their own. I hope they do - but I won't hold my breath. But it would be nice.

[principia.livejournal.com]

I'm glad there are people who enjoyed Martha. I didn't, just as I'm sure there were people who didn't enjoy Rose and won't enjoy Donna. I don't quite get why some people are so insistent on shipping people who clearly have no mutual interest in one another (and this includes not only Doctor/Martha but 99.9% of slash-fic), but as long as they're willing to accept that not everyone is going to think they're deserving of the Booker Prize, that's fine with me.

I hope that this effort to bring an end to the Mexican standoff we seem to have reached in Who fandom will prove not to be one-sided.

When I read/hear about Nos and her minions bitching about how they're regarded, I'm reminded of the old lyric from The Police's 'O My God':

Oh my God, you take the biscuit
Treating me this way
Expecting me to treat you well
No matter what you say
How can I turn the other cheek
It's black and bruised and torn...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Ah...see...? The bruised and battered feeling was my initial reaction to being asked to be civil and polite, when I'm the one who has been polite all along while my views were continually maligned. I remember how I was hounded on my own journal. I remember how people told me...

1) Not to leave any posts saying how much I loved Rose or Rose/Doctor unlocked, because I was being mocked all over fandom.
2) Warning me not to show my Rose love on T&C because I would be lectured about being "closed minded and having the sort of attitude that would ruin the show."
3) Being lectured about being "closed minded and ruining the show" because I continued to believe that RTD meant to write Rose as the Doctor's love.
4) Being expected to change my views to accommodate other's people's views of what "a true Doctor Who fan" would believe.
5) Being called out for pointing out simple lines in canon that support my position and/or explaining why I held my views.

Through it all I remained mostly polite...I withdrew from communities that became Martha-love fests because I really didn't agree with most of the sentiments expressed by really...a few select people. I grew weary of constantly referencing all of the places in canon that support my position when my position was the official, documented by RTD and DT and BP, position anyway.

So...now...after all that...when I was reminded to be polite, it irked a bit...but still...like I said...it doesn't hurt to examine your own prejudices every now and then.

Rae

I know you are kidding me...but...

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...this is a very volatile subject to this day. And I really shouldn't address it here because someone might get set off. But...when has that ever stopped me...

So...if asked seriously...I would point out that there is a big difference between saying NO and then grabbing someone and shagging the stuffing out of them over and over again...and saying NO to someone and taking them for a tour of the galaxy while going on and on about your lost love. During the rape...when Buffy said NO...that's the NO that the Doctor gives to Martha in Smith and Jones. It isn't a debatable NO...it means...stop it. He goes on to say "STOP!" And both Spike and Martha...should have, in my opinion, stopped.

Rae

[padawanpooh.livejournal.com]

Huzzah for sense! As you probably know I'm now more into Martha than Rose, but like (I hope) 99% of other people I'm not planning on setting off a metaphoricalnuke in time_and_chips or lifeonmartha

Them fen on the crazy train? There is no reasoning with them - all you can do is back away slowly: no sudden movements...

[jlrpuck.livejournal.com]

Oh, amen. A very well thought-out, very well-written plea for tolerance and understanding in the fandom, as it once more explodes.

*sigh* I've never understood why people feel the need to be so...militant...about their love or hatred for a character. If you love them, great--but not everyone else will. If you hate them, that's your right as well-- but you have free will and can stop watching or reading things about that character.

Thanks for posting this, Rae--it's always nice to see a reasonable discussion of this type of thing.

[beck1.livejournal.com]

Am I weird in that I like both Rose and Martha, though I do have to admit that I prefer Rose. I was cheering Martha on though when she finally left the Doctor because it almost felt as though he were using her to try and stop the loneliness he felt even though he knew that she was in love with him. The Doctor can be very insensitive. So I'll be glad if Martha comes back to the Doctor Who verse more sure of herself and over her unrequited love for the Doctor.

[webeh.livejournal.com]

This is slightly off topic, but I'm part of the pack that likes both Martha and Rose. Only for specific reasons and in certain circumstances though.

I like Martha best when she's acting independently of the Doctor. This, I find, is when the writing for the character is at it's best. The way the character has been portrayed and created, she shines the brightest when she's not dependent on her co-traveler.

Rose, I enjoy the most when she and the Doctor are functioning as sidekicks (AKA. BFFs) while on adventures together. The pair share the best chemistry when they're being all chummy like and having fun. Whereas, Martha/Doctor's chemistry is the best when you have a tinge of passive agression.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

It is and was an entirely volunteery thing. That the mods of OSK chose to join was entirely their call, though it was a nice gesture that I appreciate, especially since I know some of the mods there really don't personally like me. But either way, this is behaviour on the communities we're talking about. No one is suggesting we police personal journals. And when you join a community, there always rules to play by. I don't think being civil to people that might not share your taste is the worst one to obey.

Defining what bashing is in fact one of the points we are curerntly debating on bashmenot, and simply stating "I don't like X" will not fall under it. Saying "Oh man, those fans of X are whiny babyheads that need to take their meds" I'd rather say is. But it's a general "we will tolerate bashing on the comm" statement. How the comms draw the line in borderline cases, is their call.

Quite frankly, liking both Rose and Martha - and yes, there are many who do like both - I've at times felt I can go nowehere in fandom without having to hear baashing of one of them, or of Gwen in TW fandom - or if I go to CSI fandom, of Catherine or of Sara. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of feeling like a passive bystander to it. I'm tired of the constant negativity making me feel negative too.

So I did this. I didn't expect this many to join in, but it tells me perhaps there are many out there feeling similarly tired. Maybe it will make no difference. But at least we tried and did not stand passive.

As someone who seldom feels compelled

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...to just say, I don't like X...I appreciate the gathering to debate what bashing is. I can certainly relate to the need for some bashing standards. I generally list my reasons for not liking X. And I will entertain debate on X's good points. Generally, I try to like the characters, even villianous ones, on shows I enjoy.

There were a few times in S3 when Martha's behavior was so alien to my own standards of behavior that I did just go...YEEK, I don't like this character. And then, I would go on to say why, and a few of my friends would tell me of another interpretation for her actions. Sometimes I found their interpretations had validity, sometimes I didn't buy their take on things.

When I saw that several Rose fans loved Martha and wanted to chat about her, I simply decided to stand back from the discussions. I just had nothing helpful or nice to add, so I figured why say anything. But when I was told to move on, change my opinons and learn how to be a "true fan" I did point out that I had reasons for my opinions as well, and I would be keeping them, thanks!

I do appreciate that every community has rules and we all hate to buck them. Sometimes I wish I had some rules here. No funny hats. No cat macros. Mostly, I don't lock, I don't ban and I don't care if I'm mocked at fanwank. But I do come fully armed to any debate. People who disagree with me generally seek me out and tell me so. So, I assume they are looking for my opinion.

As you know, I've more or less retreated from the discussions at T&C...as I told you I would. It had nothing to do with you or yours... You seem a nice enough Mod to me. But, the community was no longer meeting my needs and was more likely to stir me up than comfort or amuse me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm all for civil behavior. Let it reign. But I am not sure it can be legislated. And there is always a risk that people who feel they have taken a lot of abuse for their opinions will grow rather tired of being civil to people who flat-out come looking for trouble. Though...I gather the goal here...is to crack down on those people who are looking for trouble. So, more power to that.

Rae

[webeh.livejournal.com]

As for shipping Martha, I find that I don't ship her with anyone. I kind of want her to be the type who stays single because she likes it and it suits her lifestyle.

On the other hand, I do/did ship Rose and the Doctor. The pair are just so happy around each other that it's infectious. :)

As for bashing. I had no idea that some places have widened the definition as far as simply stating your dislike for something. Generally, I think what I would consider bashing depends a lot on context. For example, if you hate-on Rose/Martha's in a Rose/Martha community, that's just not cool. But, if you did the same (but in a civilized manner) in a general Dr. Who community, I think that it could be a legitimate discussion.

Re: As someone who seldom feels compelled

[webeh.livejournal.com]

"true fan"

I see this comment brought up a lot in regards to criticism directed at the show. Personally, I think this is the weakest argument that one make. Depending on it's usage, it might be simplifying the mind of the fan and the fandom overall. That's kind of insulting, especially when the fandom like to pride themselves for their intelligent debate.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Actually, the Martha you describe Webeh, is the one I hope to see in S4. When it comes right down to it she had two deal breaker personality traits that hammered at my head (and heart) like a woodpecker on acid attacking a dead tree trunk whenever I saw her. If RTD removes those two traits...eradicates them from her personality (and I, honestly, think getting over the Doctor and getting a life should take care of that)...I might like her.

As I said...I found her spunky and charming at times. And I, too, enjoyed her on her own rather than with the Doctor. I could never warm to her because every episode she exhibited the deal breaking things. I don't consider she was ever his friend (that's one of my deal-breaking clashes with her), so, I have no opinion on what sort of friend she would make for the Doctor. But I do hope to see a change in her in S4.

And I agree with you completely, re: bashing. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis, myself, because context is important. But taking a pledge is an admirable start if the comms. mean to enforce civility.

The problem is it is all a bit subjective. People get hurt and their words are taken out of context or they simply get tired of being hounded and want some peace. Or, really, sometimes we have different goals from the community Mods.

I personally don't think there should be lengthy discussion of OT characters on character-oriented communities. I don't hold with the idea that saying Rose is no good for the Doctor and X is so much better for him on a Rose/Doctor relationship community is "a legitimate stand on the R/D relationship," even though, as you say, it might be appropriate in a general DW community or in a X/Doctor community to say that. To me, that seems like baiting, but I wouldn't call it bashing, just OT and annoying.

Rae

In my opinion, you don't get too much

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

...in the way of intelligent debate online.* And here I mean you don't often get people stepping up to the plate with well thought out arguments with factual backup and a willingness to discover new things about a subject.

What you get all too often is people who have an opinion and want to express it in an effort to find like-minded souls. And that's fine. As long as they are not expressing themselves all over other people's carpets, again...I don't mind them.

And again we get to what bashing might be? Say you open a debate on Martha's relative merits as a companion on a general DW community. The response you will get there would be mixed and essentially different than the one you could expect on a Martha-lovers community.

And the response will be different yet on a Rose-oriented community. To my way of thinking...there is really no reason at all for me to go to Smith_n_Jones and open a debate on Rose's relative merits as a companion. If I do that...I should expect to get some pretty heated comments.

Rae
*maybe that's too harsh of me, I have seen some really enlightened debates on some subjects...just not too many involving 'shipping.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I do know you are into Martha now, Pooh. And our loss is their gain. You are a sweet and civil person and you didn't try to convince me to jump off my ship just because you did. I appreciate that, and I appreciate you.

Some people are bound to jump ship. It's going to happen to a few people because the level of identification with a particular character is much like the level of identification with any real life person. I know that the very things that drive me mad about Martha will be admired by someone else. Just as the very things I adore about Rose make some people grind their teeth. Like the way tears well up in her eyes over everything (I do that, too, so I don't find it annoying at all).

Rae

[misscam.livejournal.com]

Well, in my mind the line starts getting crossed when you state opinion as fact. For instance, to take a totally different fandom, someone might say "I don't like Sara Sidle. I find the writing sometimes makes her seem clingy and I don't feel she has any chemistry with Gil Grissom." Okay. Opinion, which many would disagree with incluing me, but opinion. But if you say "Sara Sidle is a clingy ugly cow and her scenes with Gil Grissom make all sane people barf" then I think most would classify it as bashing.

That is how we generally go about it at T&C. How others do it, will be their call. This thing will be a general statement. I'm not going to police LoM, OSK will not police T&C or anything like that. Yeah, there will be some things borderline, but I don't think there's anything borderline about things like calling Martha 'black bitch' or saying Rose is only good for getting mutialted in a train crash, to pick two examples I've seen.

But since OSK is your comm of choice, perhaps your concerns about how they intend to 'legistate' it can be taken to them. I do believe they have their own version of Page-A-Mod. Or you can join bashmenot and see how we are debating it, because there are a lot of interesting points raised. (The invitation was open to all in my LJ - initially it was for mods, but after others have expressed interest as well, any can join who wants.) Or wait and see what the statement will be to see if you have issues with it.

Yep, I can see your point on those examples.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I'm probably on the wait and see fence just now. I may join bashmenot for a time to see how the debate is going. But like I've said, my initial reaction was much stronger than my considered one. I'm rather back to "Meh!" about it all and waiting to see how it plays out in practice.

For what it's worth, I agree with your definition of bashing. Those examples you list are mighty offensive. But, so far, nothing like that has surfaced on OSK. I think my concerns in communities is often with baiting rather than bashing. Baiting being a sort of set-up disguised as a debate. In a baiting situation, someone Jonesing for some Fanwanking Fame posts a link to something extremely inflammatory or makes an OT statement that is bound to stir up kerfuffles.

Then they go to another community and point and yell...oh, look here are some people bashing you guys!

Rae

Re: In my opinion, you don't get too much

[webeh.livejournal.com]

maybe that's too harsh of me, I have seen some really enlightened debates on some subjects...just not too many involving 'shipping.

You're totally right there. I haven't seen very many good discussions related to ships. Well actually, I have. But, it usually occurs within the ship where everyone already agrees that they like the ship. I think allows them to move onto subjects related to the couple.

Anyways, back to my point. Generally, you don't get good debates about ships because it becomes all about simply arguing about whose is better. Most of the discussions I've really enjoyed inside fandom tends to be on other subjects, usually focused on social issues. (I specifically remember this one discussion about the level gender equality in BSG. Someone brought up Athena's almost rape, which throws a kink into the arguments of equality.)

[webeh.livejournal.com]

Actually, the Martha you describe Webeh, is the one I hope to see in S4.

Which is why I hope that the next time we see Martha, it's been a couple of years in her time. That gives her the space to form new attachments/commitments to other things in life. Maybe she'll have grown out of her Doctor!lust in season 4. (I've read some spoilers that makes me feel very optimistic about this.)

Back to Rose. If we were ever to see her again. I hope to see some changes in her as well. For one thing, you should get the sense that she's older in both her appearance and how she dresses. (Okay, I'll admit that I totally want to see her in a suit.) It would be kind of sad to find out that she turns out to be exactly the same, which would imply no development on her part.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I think that we may well see a Rose who has been fighting alone in Pete's World. So, more take charge than ever. You must remember she was charged with "defending the Earth" and her new world has no Doctor to prepare people for aliens. And her Torchwood has been decimated by cybermen. Add to that the few hardy, soldier souls who survived the cyber attack are probably real scrapers and wonder where this rich girl gets off coming in and telling them how to handle aliens...and you get a harder edge to Rose.

I, too, would love to see her in a power suit. But I think she's going to go more practical Torchwood babe on us. I do think she will have more book learning though. And she never was shy about expressing her opinions.

Rae

[webeh.livejournal.com]

Other things I'd think would be interesting to see from Rose:

- She has a less playful personality. As we've seen from Torchwood, that organization kills a person's innocence. She's probably had to make some really hard decisions, some of which involves choosing who gets to live and die. (I doubt RTD would ever go too deep into this on Doctor Who. But, he might on Torchwood.)
- She's sporting some cool fighting moves and some weaponry. This is so not the Rose from season one or two.
- She at least 23 now. That way RTD can include some drastic changes in her , without the audience having to conclude that "Wow, she's really f**ked up now." If it's been one year, that would probably mean that some really bad things has happened to her. But if it's been a while, you could claim that the changes were gradual simply indicating that she's older now.

This is just me being shallow, but I so want to see Martha and Rose interact. Both of the personal and professional variety. In fact, I'd love to see an elaborate Torchwood-type scene where the pair (dressed in black intelligence gear) chase after a suspect. See? :)

Re: Yep, I can see your point on those examples.

[miladyhawke.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm thrilled to say that we don't have bashing problems at OSK (nor do we have the kind of fans there who wank bait, as they are simply not welcome). Your reasoned dislike of Martha, for instance, does not constitute bashing, although Padawanpooh above would disagree with me.

I'm really not interested in curtailing discussion at OSK in any way (want to exchange fudge recipes in the comments? Have at it! The relaxed atmosphere is very purposeful, as it redresses policies I have not liked elsewhere), with the exception of the obvious no-no's that have been listed in the userinfo from the beginning (racism, homophobia, etc) and the blatant mean-spiritedness that Cam gave you in the above examples. That's pretty obvious bashing.

I'm really sorry that any wrong impression was given - getting on board the bash-me-not bandwagon was entirely about solidarity with the cause, not an attempt to redress a problem or change policy.

You'll have to catch me in private for a little more context, if you know what I mean ;)

[bubbles234.livejournal.com]

I like you =]

*Has exactly the same view points as you*

I wish I had the power to express them that clearly!:D
x

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I like you, too, Bubbles! I especially like that you left some feedback on a fic. You should go check out Suicide Blonde or maybe the other one...uhm...drat, I can't remember the names of my own fics. :snicker:

Anyway...you can find most of my links at my website.

www.rainondust.com I should tell other people that too.

And thanks for the compliment on my powers of expression.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

The other fic is called Unrequited...Jack and Nine are in it as they are in Ricochet.

http://rabid1st.livejournal.com/121262.html

[bubbles234.livejournal.com]

Ooh yay! :D Thanks for the links :D
I shall have to save them for later, because I'm supposed to be going out in five minutes and I'm still in my pyjamas. Yay for laziness! :P

xxx